XSF Discussion - 2018-03-12


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  185. jonasw moin
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  216. Zash Hm, no MUCs in clients.json
  217. Ge0rG What?
  218. jonasw support MUCs, I assume
  219. Zash Yes
  220. Ge0rG Do we have a field for that?
  221. jonasw Dave Cridland, I heard you had some (internal? non-public?) client which does reactions. Would you care to give feedback to this? https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
  222. jonasw Ge0rG, no
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  234. Tobias https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567009
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  241. Ge0rG Tobias: HN is probably downgrading / shadowkilling upvotes from direct links, it's better to go from the main page.
  242. Tobias HN users probably know it and can go back to the mainpage to upvote
  243. Ge0rG Maybe.
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  248. daniel Nice good job
  249. daniel Don't even care about the content but having xmpp on the front page of HN is always an achievement
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  259. Zash Dave Cridland: Did I see you saying something along the lines of email stagnating around the time everyone switched to gmail?
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  323. pep. "Markdown-like syntax" in that article. This is going to come back to bite us at some point
  324. Ge0rG pep.: that also came on the ML recently, with the suggestion to call 393 and 394 "markdown" and "markup" respectively
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  326. pep. Yeah I've seen that one and your comment :)
  327. Zash cries in groff
  328. Ge0rG I had to resist the urge to counter-propose "markleft" and "markright"
  329. Ge0rG I think that 0394 qualifies for markleft, because it's based on tags starting with <, and 0393 is markright because it specifies > as a quoting character.
  330. Ge0rG jonasw, SamWhited: ^
  331. jonasw I’ll slap you
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  333. pep. Ge0rG: :D
  334. Ge0rG jonasw: luckily I didn't attend CLT
  335. jonasw yeah
  336. jonasw we still need that slapping-into-face-over-plain-TCP/IP
  337. jonasw ;)
  338. Ge0rG jonasw: over XMPP
  339. jonasw <slap/>
  340. SamWhited *fry*
  341. SamWhited wait, that doesn't work on here…
  342. SamWhited http://www.sydneyjanebaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/0tsVo2k.gif
  343. Ge0rG Damn, with Sam on the Council I will probably not get this through Council against the authors wishes.
  344. Zash -xep poke
  345. Bunneh Zash: Presence Obtained via Kinesthetic Excitation (POKE) (Humorous, Active, 2004-04-01) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0132.html
  346. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm actually glad you didn't try to fry me :D
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  348. Ge0rG > How do you use emoji reactions in a mission-critical way? 🤣
  349. Zash Who are you calling a rectangle?!
  350. jonasw fry: not sure if demonstration on how to do that or quote and laughter.
  351. flow jonasw, what's your stance on swapping the names of xep39(3|4)?
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  353. jonasw flow, I said that I’m going to change the name of 394 anyways, so I don’t really care
  354. jonasw I’m not sure either styling or markup really applies
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  356. flow jonasw, what shall be the new name of xep394?
  357. jonasw swapping the names seems like a bad idea though
  358. jonasw not sure
  359. flow XEP-0394: Not Sure
  360. jonasw seems legit
  361. flow That appears to be confusing
  362. Ge0rG jonasw: "markleft"
  363. jonasw Ge0rG, no.
  364. flow Text Style Annotations
  365. Zash You are thinking too 2D
  366. jonasw maybe Markup Annotation or something which carries the notion that it’s not directly inside the message
  367. Zash Markforward!
  368. Ge0rG jonasw: you don't really care, and "markleft" and "markright" are great memory hooks
  369. jonasw Ge0rG, they’re also bad for people with right/left weakness :P
  370. Zash Mark Here
  371. flow Mark Tawin
  372. jonasw intended typo?
  373. flow I'm just going to say 'yes'
  374. jonasw I don’t see the joke then :)
  375. Ge0rG jonasw: don't get all ableism on me
  376. Ge0rG What about Mark Zuckerberg?
  377. flow I've heard he is pretty rich
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  379. Ge0rG rich text formatting with zuck-up!
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  385. moparisthebest haha the irony is excellent, that slack-bait-and-switch hn thread a guy 'I'm writing an open source client...' -> follows link -> 'The app will be open-sourced at some point, so you don't have to worry about it being abandoned.'
  386. jonasw lolwat
  387. moparisthebest I fell for that once with minecraft, never again
  388. jonasw i don’t like that "we’ll open source that at some point"
  389. Zash Minetest!
  390. moparisthebest yea minetest is excellent :)
  391. jonasw people who don’t open source right away usually won’t lose their reasons not to later on
  392. jonasw Syndace might be an exception, still wary on that one ;-) (jk)
  393. moparisthebest ah I can link directly to the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567285
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  396. Syndace jonasw, Haha nice one :D
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  398. jonasw multi-protocol client. suuure
  399. jonasw > There will also be an affordable premium plan for things like having more than 5 accounts. The base functionality will always be free.
  400. jonasw > Open-Source
  401. jonasw nope
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  404. moparisthebest but he's fixing the walled garden problem jonasw
  405. jonasw deak
  406. jonasw *yeah
  407. moparisthebest he even says so...
  408. moparisthebest :)
  409. jonasw multi-protocol messengers have always been the best
  410. jonasw Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
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  412. moparisthebest especially ones written in pure C
  413. moparisthebest they never have security issues
  414. jonasw moparisthebest, you should renick to "multiprotocolisthebest"
  415. jonasw IN PURE C
  416. jonasw holy smokes
  417. rion =)
  418. jonasw I thought we were past this stage
  419. Zash C is nice. In small doses.
  420. moparisthebest I dislike 100mb javascript monstrosities too, but the solution to me doesn't seem to be 'rewrite everything in "pure C"'
  421. jonasw yeah
  422. jonasw using something inherently memory-unsafe in 2018 seems like a super stupid thing to do.
  423. jonasw especially if network interfaced
  424. jonasw I’d go along with C++. that has at least the option of writing mostly compile-time checked memory-safe code.
  425. jonasw > eul is a registered company, and all binaries are signed. Your data is safe.
  426. jonasw I’ll... just ... stop reading that site now
  427. moparisthebest mainly the irony of being linked from that thread and 'solving the walled garden problem' was the best part :)
  428. Ge0rG he was plugging eul in earlier threads as well.
  429. Kev Slack doesn't give me much grief using the Slack client, although it's annoying, but Discord...someone makes a nice open source Discord transport and they will be my friend.
  430. Ge0rG someone make a nice XMPP client.
  431. edhelas Kev wow you need a lots of effort to be your friend
  432. Kev Ge0rG: I'm working on that.
  433. Link Mauve https://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/ Botnet control by Samsung using XMPP~
  434. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m working on that.
  435. Kev It's C++ and it's Qt and I hope this could be the year of XMPP on the desktop ;)
  436. Ge0rG > the entire Hanwha smart camera cloud is a Jabber server. It has so-called rooms, with cameras of one type in each room. An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server. Sound security design. I'm on the look for a "web cam" style camera I can point to the great view I have in the new home
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  438. jonasw lol
  439. Zash Kev: Haven't you heard? The desktop is obsolete!
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  441. Seve/SouL Better someone build an XMPP Discord-kind-of-client
  442. jonasw should probably take a look at discord at some point
  443. Kev Much like Slack.
  444. Kev Except you can't have multiple accounts
  445. jonasw I never used slack
  446. Kev Much like Discord.
  447. jonasw ELOOP
  448. Zash Someone wanna take one for the team and look at all these things and tell us what their point is?
  449. Kev I use both extensively.
  450. Zash goes and sits in the "IRC and XMPP are fine, why would you want all that garbage?" corner.
  451. jonasw Kev, wanna agree on how to handle Emoji Reactions and do a field test?
  452. Kev Zash: They both do things that are useful and XMPP doesn't do, to my eyes.
  453. Kev jonasw: Reference.
  454. Link Mauve Last argument I heard for Discord was “it’s possible to do an audio conference at any moment, so we should migrate that in the eventuality we may want to do one someday”.
  455. jonasw but there are many details
  456. Seve/SouL Kev, it would be nice to know which kind of things we are missing then
  457. jonasw Kev, https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
  458. Kev That's the easy answer for live messages. For non-live messages we need the server archive to understand references.
  459. Link Mauve I then proceeded to close this biboumi tab to never come back there.
  460. Zash Kev: Things.
  461. jonasw Kev, I argue that Message Attaching is more well-suited for emoji reactions, but feel free to weigh in if you disagree. I consider that one of the more irrelevant details though.
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  463. Zash Kev: All I hear are repeats of my Skype hating days. "XMPP just can't replace Skype" - said by peolpe who use it exactly as you would IRC
  464. Kev jonasw: I *think* that References simply supersedes Message Attaching, once it's fleshed out.
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  466. jonasw Kev, it does too much
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  468. Kev Zash: I think you can give me a little mileage in having an understanding of XMPP if I think some of the things Slack does that I use are hard to currently do in XMPP :)
  469. jonasw but I argue that in the linked thing already
  470. Kev And Reactions that Jonas is talking about is one useful example.
  471. Kev Other things are what I'm hoping to build on top of MIX once we've got MIX usefully out there.
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  474. Ge0rG I've abandoned MIX by now.
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  477. Ge0rG I'm also in favor of Message Attaching over References for reactions, because what jonasw said
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  479. Ge0rG I could live with a reference containing the message ID and a type='reaction', though
  480. jonasw Kev, also, my beef with references would be that it uses codepoint ranges into body but doesn’t handle multiple languages. that’s not relevant to reactions, but I expect some breakage originating from that.
  481. Ge0rG however, neither XEP provides an element to put the actual reaction into
  482. jonasw (and thus namespace bumps for things irrelevant to reactions)
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  484. jonasw Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a simpling into the <message/>
  485. jonasw Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a sibling into the <message/>
  486. Ge0rG jonasw: my point is: we need a separate reactions XEP anyway
  487. jonasw yeah, that’s true
  488. jonasw hm, actually, I might post some aggregated feedback on references, I am finding quite a few things I dislike about it when reading it
  489. Kev jonasw: Give it a week or so, Edwin's sending out a major update imminently.
  490. jonasw Kev, oh-kay
  491. jonasw Kev, no wait, I’m going to send out that feedback anyways. From how I see things working usually, the major update will be delayed for some reason and then my feedback is lost, because I’ll forget about it
  492. Kev Or send it anyway and Edwin can integrate it, either way.
  493. jonasw also, maybe it can be incorporated into that update :)
  494. jonasw yeah
  495. Seve/SouL Are you just considering Reactions emoji-only things?
  496. Zash <reaction>meh</reaction>
  497. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: no, but emoji will be the recommended way to react.
  498. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: the challenge is to determine how many codepoints correspond to one emoji
  499. Zash A bunch
  500. Zash <{reaction}meh/>
  501. Kev Why do you need to count the codepoints in an emoji? They're the reaction, not the source
  502. Zash Did someone suggest shoving semantics into <body>? Otherwise there shouldn't be any need for codepoint counting.
  503. jonasw I did not.
  504. jonasw I only want to shove fallback into <body/> :)
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  508. Ge0rG Kev: in case somebody wants to limit reactions to "at most one emoji"
  509. Ge0rG so you can't write a novel in there.
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  513. Kev For this one thing, I think not having a fallback is actually sensible Jonas.
  514. flow where is +notify specified? Is it only that single sentence in xep163?
  515. Zash flow: might be a bit in 60 too
  516. Kev 9.2, 60.
  517. jonasw Kev, why?
  518. Zash Spam?
  519. flow hmm then xep163 is misleading, it tells me that appending +notify will make me receive all notifications related to the protocol that precedes the suffix
  520. jonasw Zash, if in response to the Reactions thing: people are doing that already anyways
  521. Zash Isn't half the point of these to compress eg a ton of 👍 replies?
  522. flow whereas xep60 tells that that I will only receive notifications about the node whose NodeID is the prefix
  523. Zash No the obvious solution here is to write a message with only 'm', which triggers a bot to say "$name says +1". Now you got twice the spam.
  524. Zash (This what actually went on in those Skype channels)
  525. jonasw (not to mention that if we don’t have a body on the message, it will be omitted from many archives.)
  526. jonasw (or may not be carbon-copied or something)
  527. Kev flow: How are the nodes named in 163?
  528. jonasw Zash, I feel you’ve got quite a trauma from skype.
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  530. Kev jonasw: We need to update how archiving works in the world of references. And it's by archiving bare-JID.
  531. Zash jonasw: Mmmmmmmmyeah
  532. flow Kev, xep163 doesn't really name nodes, its protocols like tune who do
  533. jonasw Zash, so, I’ve seen people in MUCs already doing the "name\n> message\nemoji" thing.
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  535. flow but what if such protocols define multiple nodes? xep163 gives the impression that I'll get notifications for all of them by a single +notify
  536. Zash jonasw: right
  537. moparisthebest that article is interesting "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol."
  538. MattJ moparisthebest, which article?
  539. Ge0rG MattJ: https://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/
  540. flow xml:lang='*'
  541. flow from the articel's "Message sent over XMPP using a test account created for research purposes" picture
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  564. ralphm Kev: the idea of splitting resources, as in the examples in MIX, have those ever been written up?
  565. Kev I don't remember if I've put anything about it into bind2 or not.
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  569. ralphm I didn't find it in XEP-0386. I did notice it being expired.
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  572. ralphm Kev: in any case, the paragraph confused us here
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  589. Ge0rG I really hope that those split resources are going to die soon.
  590. moparisthebest sorry I got cut-off mid-type there it says "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol." but then proceeds to say the *real* problem
  591. moparisthebest "An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server."
  592. moparisthebest which is addressed in the base spec, not even an extension, in fact arbitrary account registration could just be off...
  593. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I think you are preaching to the choir
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  599. winfried When designing a protocol, you have to anticipate on user and implementer stupidity, but this a level of stupidity I would not be able to anticipate....
  600. Zash What's the saying?
  601. moparisthebest well sure, just pointing out how dumb it is, it's only seperated by 2 sentences, don't know why an otherwise smart reviewer would do that
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  603. Zash If you design something idiot-proof, the universe will design a better idiot?
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  615. Guus hargh. Did some kind of DST change happen anywhere in the world, recently?
  616. pep. Lots
  617. pep. It's the week of hell
  618. moparisthebest yea EST did sunday morning
  619. moparisthebest or EDT, whatever, flipped between them one way or the other :)
  620. pep. Its changed in the US but not in Europe aiui
  621. pep. It's
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  623. jonasw when’s the switch in Europe btw?
  624. Zash Still +1 here
  625. pep. Next week I think
  626. Guus https://depositphotos.com/33062973/stock-illustration-comic-curses-speech-bubble.html
  627. Zash My feeling is "last weekend in mars"
  628. jonasw this time the last weekend is split between march and april, so I’m unsure
  629. jonasw right, march 25th in DE
  630. jonasw so probably the same in europe
  631. moparisthebest whenever I think about how terrible timezones and DST are now, I just imagine how much more terrible it'll be when people live on other planets :)
  632. Zash jonasw: Yay EU-standardization
  633. jonasw moparisthebest, star time 1520872849
  634. Guus I think all board members are in the same DST-change period, but council might not be. SamWhited, you're probably the only one this week with a different time. Don't be like Guus and miss a meeting.
  635. goffi has joined
  636. SamWhited ack; I forgot about that, thanks.
  637. Guus (afaik, both board and council fixed the time to London time, thus using its DST switchover date, whenever that might be).
  638. moparisthebest jonasw, maybe but it won't be like that in the beginning, if people go to mars in the next 50 years or whatever it'll just be yet-another-far-harder-to-calculate-timezone, presumably
  639. Guus Well, you probably would've been an hour early, and not missed it by an hour, like I just did. :)
  640. ralphm Zash: it is actually 'the last Sunday in March'.
  641. jonasw that makes sense
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  657. Ge0rG It's really exciting what you can do with timezones (this is from 10 years ago) https://op-co.de/1984.html
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  661. moparisthebest am I the only one to find the opkode.com vs op-co.de distinction super confusing
  662. MattJ Nope
  663. Ge0rG I find it too.
  664. moparisthebest I read about half of the opkode.com blogpost earlier thinking odd Ge0rG updated his website until I got to the 'author of converse.js' part
  665. jubalh has joined
  666. Ge0rG I don't know how to resolve this problem, besides of undeservedly bitching on JC
  667. moparisthebest if you weren't both involved in XMPP it wouldn't be so bad :)
  668. Zash #OPCODEBOWL
  669. moparisthebest we clearly need a dual to the death
  670. moparisthebest duel even
  671. Zash Cleganebowl can go throw itself into the wall! Opcodebowl hype!!!
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  674. jonasw duel to death sounds like a bad idea
  675. jonasw really bad
  676. jonasw Ge0rG will lose
  677. jonasw jc knows how to wield a sword.
  678. ralphm has joined
  679. jonasw I’ve seen things
  680. moparisthebest but what a way to go out
  681. Ge0rG puts on his wizard hat
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  702. Ge0rG https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc - we need the same for XMPP!
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  707. moparisthebest ah yea not bad, I like it
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  709. Tobias https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2018-m03/0075.html
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  711. moparisthebest so the same as https://github.com/moparisthebest/freespeech if the wordlist just consisted of 1024 emojis
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  746. jjrh Ge0rG, we already have it https://github.com/bluszcz/awesome-xmpp
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  749. MattJ and it lists 'Pidgin' under 'Clients'
  750. jjrh I'm not saying it's perfect
  751. Zash awesome used to mean something
  752. jjrh It's also missing a lot of stuff. Gajim isn't even listed :p
  753. SamWhited If it's about "awesome" clients that's going to be a short list…
  754. Zash Now it seems to just be some curated list of stuff.
  755. jjrh not sure if you guys are being facetious or not - the 'awesome' thing is just a github thing for a repo that is just a big list of resources/information relating to something. It doesn't really quantify quality
  756. Zash It used to be a window manager!
  757. SamWhited I think some of my coworkers still use it as their window manager
  758. SamWhited But maybe that means it's just a list of window managers, most of which aren't actually "awesome"?
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  761. MattJ Zash, it still is!
  762. jjrh It's reasonably popular still I think. I was never able to adapt to tiling first workflow
  763. MattJ My window manager can do XMPP!
  764. SamWhited I use i3, but keep meaning to try awesome. No idea what the difference is.
  765. MattJ => awesome XMPP
  766. Zash i3 represent!
  767. MattJ The downside is that I only got it working in blocking mode, so my desktop was unusable
  768. SamWhited *highfive*
  769. jjrh I should try i3 again - but I'm guessing even if it's great i'll never manage to get used to it coming from openbox
  770. Zash MattJ: Cool story bro
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  772. Zash I'm happy with i3, in that I finally found a window manager that let switch virtual desktops separately on each monitor
  773. Zash And does tabs
  774. SamWhited I used to use a mix of open box and xfce-wm, but stopped when I switched to i3 full time.
  775. Seve/SouL I use KDE Plasma
  776. SamWhited What Zash said; that was the big draw for me as well.
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  778. jjrh Does it play nice with floating windows? What I always wanted was tiling for one monitor/virtual desktop and floating for others.
  779. Zash I've been trying to switch to LuaKit for browsing, so that i3 can do the window management instead of the browser
  780. Zash buuuut now I'm back with a ton of firefox tabs :(
  781. moparisthebest I still use KDE since 2006 , been meaning to try i3 though
  782. jjrh I got a coworker still using twm
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  784. Zash jjrh: duno what qualifies as nice, but it lets you have floating windows if you want to
  785. Seve/SouL moparisthebest, noo, please don't leave me alone on this
  786. jjrh I guess can I get the best of both worlds? Because some stuff like coding I want tiled but a lot of other stuff is better floating.
  787. jjrh Because I tried one tiling wm - umm a haskell one forget the name - and it was like "yeah you can do floating but uh don't"
  788. moparisthebest Seve/SouL: I've tried various things and never liked them, lxdm, gnome, xfce etc, i3 is much more different though, we'll see
  789. SamWhited i3 will respect whatever the free desktop attribute thing is that windows can set to say "I should be floating", so most tiny windows that should be floating already are in my experience
  790. Zash and you can write rules in the config
  791. jjrh Can you set a workspace to be floating by default? Basically can I use i3 like I use openbox but have a few workspaces that are tiled?
  792. Zash Duno, floating is set per window usually
  793. Zash Probably doable with some config
  794. jjrh I guess I should give it a go at some point.
  795. jjrh With the workspace per monitor - will it just make double the workspaces when you lose a display (aka undock your laptop) because that would be super rad.
  796. Zash I'd recommend trying dwm too
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  798. Zash Used it way back before laptops, it was very nice
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  800. Zash but on laptops it's always ended with abrupt power failure due to no battery monitoring
  801. Zash might be better now, it's probably managed by systemd these days ..
  802. jjrh My pain is I have 2 monitors and I undock my laptop and not only is my laptop not 1080p so that messes stuff up - but all the windows from the two screens get crammed into one virtual desktop
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  804. jjrh so if i3 treats each monitor as a workspace then it should play nice with switching from 2 to 1 monitors.
  805. Zash if your video drivers are sane enough, you'd just get all the workspaces moved onto the other monitor
  806. SamWhited That seems to be what mine does; I unplug my monitor and windows remain exactly the same on whatever workspace they were on (except maybe resized a bit)
  807. Zash The nicest thing is being able to move entire workspaces between monitors
  808. Zash IIRC no keybinding for it by default, but one can be set
  809. SamWhited Although I don't actually use a multi-monitor setup anymore; got an ultrawide and haven't looked back.
  810. Zash I've mostly got an xclock on the laptops monitor :)
  811. Zash and an xterm to mke the clock be the right shape
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  813. Zash https://www.zash.se/upload/za9lYCrKESH1.png
  814. jjrh Zash, that's the problem - I want my wm to be smart enough to instead put them on a virtual desktop so everything isn't crammed together.
  815. jjrh So if I3 treats each monitor as a virtual desktop/workspace it should do the right thing.
  816. Zash Hm?
  817. jjrh Like when I undock my laptop (which docked has 2 monitors) all the windows between two monitors go to one - which makes a big mess.
  818. Zash Yeah, not like most others where it's treated as a single large workspace that covers all monitors
  819. jjrh Yeah exactly - so that's awesome if that's what i3 does :)
  820. Zash It is and it is
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  832. Ge0rG I'm using fluxbox for something like 14 years now, and recently switched from VMware to VirtualBox. The latter seems to get something wrong, so I never see the full screen overlay. 😐
  833. jjrh I'd suggest you switch to openbox - I started on fluxbox but eventually switched.
  834. jjrh depending how complex your config is it should be pretty painless.
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  836. jjrh I don't think anyone has been working on fluxbox for a long time.
  837. Ge0rG Pretty complex.
  838. Ge0rG Funny thing. I've met the fluxbox maintainer in real life, long before realizing that he's the maintainer, on a retro irc party, when those were a thing
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  840. jjrh Yeah - might take a bit of time then. Everything is XML config in openbox and I think they renamed a few things so it's not a 1-1 mapping unfortunately.
  841. Ge0rG I shouldn't be complaining about xml too loudly in this channel
  842. jjrh not complaining - just pointing out it's radically different than fluxbox configs :)
  843. Guus has left
  844. jjrh Ouch - looks like last release for openbox was 2010 :(
  845. Zash XML for config? Mmmmhm.
  846. jjrh If I remember correctly the fluxbox configs were really brittle, one wrong space and everything breaks.
  847. moparisthebest Ge0rG: might go ahead and and skip virtualbox and go directly to virt-manager/kvm
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  849. moparisthebest I wish I had
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  852. Ge0rG moparisthebest: Hm. Does it run macOS and Windows on a Linux host?
  853. moparisthebest Ge0rG: windows for sure
  854. moparisthebest Probably Mac? Haven't tried
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  856. Holger jjrh: I used Notion (successor of Ion3) in the past, that one has full-blown support for floating vs. tiling workspaces and handles multiple displays like i3 does.
  857. jjrh Interesting - thanks for that :)
  858. Holger jjrh: I also ended up with i3 though. It's the younger and easier project and way more popular these days. Compared to that, Notion feels a bit clumsy, with a somewhat complex Lua configuration; i3 has a straightforward key=value config file.
  859. Zash I see no `=` in `bindsym $mod+Tab move workspace to output right`
  860. Holger Well it's straightforward at least :-)
  861. Holger It's actually commands that take arguments, yes.
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