Monday, March 12, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:43:57] <jonasw> moin
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[10:00:11] <Zash> Hm, no MUCs in clients.json
[10:00:45] <Ge0rG> What?
[10:00:57] <jonasw> support MUCs, I assume
[10:01:16] <Zash> Yes
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[10:02:43] <Ge0rG> Do we have a field for that?
[10:02:55] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, I heard you had some (internal? non-public?) client which does reactions. Would you care to give feedback to this? https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
[10:02:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no
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[10:31:42] <Tobias> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567009
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[10:39:00] <Ge0rG> Tobias: HN is probably downgrading / shadowkilling upvotes from direct links, it's better to go from the main page.
[10:39:33] <Tobias> HN users probably know it and can go back to the mainpage to upvote
[10:40:47] <Ge0rG> Maybe.
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[10:50:30] <daniel> Nice good job
[10:50:54] <daniel> Don't even care about the content but having xmpp on the front page of HN is always an achievement
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[11:05:58] <Zash> Dave Cridland: Did I see you saying something along the lines of email stagnating around the time everyone switched to gmail?
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[12:44:04] <pep.> "Markdown-like syntax" in that article. This is going to come back to bite us at some point
[12:44:34] <Ge0rG> pep.: that also came on the ML recently, with the suggestion to call 393 and 394 "markdown" and "markup" respectively
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[12:46:27] <pep.> Yeah I've seen that one and your comment :)
[12:46:50] *Zash cries in groff
[12:48:07] <Ge0rG> I had to resist the urge to counter-propose "markleft" and "markright"
[12:49:00] <Ge0rG> I think that 0394 qualifies for markleft, because it's based on tags starting with <, and 0393 is markright because it specifies > as a quoting character.
[12:49:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw, SamWhited: ^
[12:49:33] <jonasw> I’ll slap you
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[12:49:39] <pep.> Ge0rG: :D
[12:50:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: luckily I didn't attend CLT
[12:50:09] <jonasw> yeah
[12:50:19] <jonasw> we still need that slapping-into-face-over-plain-TCP/IP
[12:50:22] <jonasw> ;)
[12:50:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: over XMPP
[12:50:36] <jonasw> <slap/>
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[12:51:05] <SamWhited> *fry*
[12:51:18] <SamWhited> wait, that doesn't work on here…
[12:51:51] <SamWhited> http://www.sydneyjanebaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/0tsVo2k.gif
[12:51:53] <Ge0rG> Damn, with Sam on the Council I will probably not get this through Council against the authors wishes.
[12:52:14] <Zash> -xep poke
[12:52:16] <Bunneh> Zash: Presence Obtained via Kinesthetic Excitation (POKE) (Humorous, Active, 2004-04-01)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0132.html
[12:52:42] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I'm actually glad you didn't try to fry me :D
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[12:56:09] <Ge0rG> > How do you use emoji reactions in a mission-critical way?
🤣
[12:56:46] <Zash> Who are you calling a rectangle?!
[12:56:46] <jonasw> fry: not sure if demonstration on how to do that or quote and laughter.
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[12:58:38] <flow> jonasw, what's your stance on swapping the names of xep39(3|4)?
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[12:59:29] <jonasw> flow, I said that I’m going to change the name of 394 anyways, so I don’t really care
[12:59:46] <jonasw> I’m not sure either styling or markup really applies
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[13:00:24] <flow> jonasw, what shall be the new name of xep394?
[13:00:25] <jonasw> swapping the names seems like a bad idea though
[13:00:30] <jonasw> not sure
[13:00:45] <flow> XEP-0394: Not Sure
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[13:00:50] <jonasw> seems legit
[13:00:53] <flow> That appears to be confusing
[13:00:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "markleft"
[13:01:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no.
[13:01:25] <flow> Text Style Annotations
[13:01:25] <Zash> You are thinking too 2D
[13:01:35] <jonasw> maybe Markup Annotation or something which carries the notion that it’s not directly inside the message
[13:01:36] <Zash> Markforward!
[13:01:43] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you don't really care, and "markleft" and "markright" are great memory hooks
[13:01:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, they’re also bad for people with right/left weakness :P
[13:02:04] <Zash> Mark Here
[13:02:18] <flow> Mark Tawin
[13:02:25] <jonasw> intended typo?
[13:02:38] <flow> I'm just going to say 'yes'
[13:03:26] <jonasw> I don’t see the joke then :)
[13:04:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: don't get all ableism on me
[13:04:19] <Ge0rG> What about Mark Zuckerberg?
[13:04:47] <flow> I've heard he is pretty rich
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[13:05:23] <Ge0rG> rich text formatting with zuck-up!
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[13:20:02] <moparisthebest> haha the irony is excellent, that slack-bait-and-switch hn thread a guy 'I'm writing an open source client...' -> follows link -> 'The app will be open-sourced at some point, so you don't have to worry about it being abandoned.'
[13:20:15] <jonasw> lolwat
[13:20:20] <moparisthebest> I fell for that once with minecraft, never again
[13:20:38] <jonasw> i don’t like that "we’ll open source that at some point"
[13:20:39] <Zash> Minetest!
[13:20:47] <moparisthebest> yea minetest is excellent :)
[13:20:58] <jonasw> people who don’t open source right away usually won’t lose their reasons not to later on
[13:21:16] <jonasw> Syndace might be an exception, still wary on that one ;-) (jk)
[13:21:20] <moparisthebest> ah I can link directly to the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567285
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[13:28:44] <Syndace> jonasw, Haha nice one :D
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[13:29:40] <jonasw> multi-protocol client. suuure
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[13:30:03] <jonasw> > There will also be an affordable premium plan for things like having more than 5 accounts. The base functionality will always be free.
[13:30:05] <jonasw> > Open-Source
[13:30:06] <jonasw> nope
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[13:32:50] <moparisthebest> but he's fixing the walled garden problem jonasw
[13:32:58] <jonasw> deak
[13:32:59] <jonasw> *yeah
[13:33:00] <moparisthebest> he even says so...
[13:33:02] <moparisthebest> :)
[13:33:07] <jonasw> multi-protocol messengers have always been the best
[13:33:14] <jonasw> Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
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[13:33:22] <moparisthebest> especially ones written in pure C
[13:33:28] <moparisthebest> they never have security issues
[13:33:32] <jonasw> moparisthebest, you should renick to "multiprotocolisthebest"
[13:33:42] <jonasw> IN PURE C
[13:33:46] <jonasw> holy smokes
[13:33:48] <rion> =)
[13:33:55] <jonasw> I thought we were past this stage
[13:34:07] <Zash> C is nice. In small doses.
[13:34:31] <moparisthebest> I dislike 100mb javascript monstrosities too, but the solution to me doesn't seem to be 'rewrite everything in "pure C"'
[13:35:11] <jonasw> yeah
[13:35:27] <jonasw> using something inherently memory-unsafe in 2018 seems like a super stupid thing to do.
[13:35:33] <jonasw> especially if network interfaced
[13:35:54] <jonasw> I’d go along with C++. that has at least the option of writing mostly compile-time checked memory-safe code.
[13:36:52] <jonasw> > eul is a registered company, and all binaries are signed. Your data is safe.
[13:36:57] <jonasw> I’ll... just ... stop reading that site now
[13:38:20] <moparisthebest> mainly the irony of being linked from that thread and 'solving the walled garden problem' was the best part :)
[13:38:48] <Ge0rG> he was plugging eul in earlier threads as well.
[13:41:22] <Kev> Slack doesn't give me much grief using the Slack client, although it's annoying, but Discord...someone makes a nice open source Discord transport and they will be my friend.
[13:42:13] <Ge0rG> someone make a nice XMPP client.
[13:42:48] <edhelas> Kev wow you need a lots of effort to be your friend
[13:42:59] <Kev> Ge0rG: I'm working on that.
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[13:43:02] <Link Mauve> https://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/ Botnet control by Samsung using XMPP~
[13:43:05] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m working on that.
[13:43:30] <Kev> It's C++ and it's Qt and I hope this could be the year of XMPP on the desktop ;)
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[13:46:55] <Ge0rG> > the entire Hanwha smart camera cloud is a Jabber server. It has so-called rooms, with cameras of one type in each room. An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server.
Sound security design. I'm on the look for a "web cam" style camera I can point to the great view I have in the new home
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[13:47:23] <jonasw> lol
[13:48:29] <Zash> Kev: Haven't you heard? The desktop is obsolete!
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[13:49:28] <Seve/SouL> Better someone build an XMPP Discord-kind-of-client
[13:49:45] <jonasw> should probably take a look at discord at some point
[13:50:05] <Kev> Much like Slack.
[13:50:12] <Kev> Except you can't have multiple accounts
[13:50:13] <jonasw> I never used slack
[13:50:20] <Kev> Much like Discord.
[13:50:24] <jonasw> ELOOP
[13:50:27] <Zash> Someone wanna take one for the team and look at all these things and tell us what their point is?
[13:50:39] <Kev> I use both extensively.
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[13:50:59] *Zash goes and sits in the "IRC and XMPP are fine, why would you want all that garbage?" corner.
[13:51:05] <jonasw> Kev, wanna agree on how to handle Emoji Reactions and do a field test?
[13:51:28] <Kev> Zash: They both do things that are useful and XMPP doesn't do, to my eyes.
[13:51:40] <Kev> jonasw: Reference.
[13:51:49] <Link Mauve> Last argument I heard for Discord was “it’s possible to do an audio conference at any moment, so we should migrate that in the eventuality we may want to do one someday”.
[13:51:50] <jonasw> but there are many details
[13:51:53] <Seve/SouL> Kev, it would be nice to know which kind of things we are missing then
[13:52:05] <jonasw> Kev, https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
[13:52:06] <Kev> That's the easy answer for live messages. For non-live messages we need the server archive to understand references.
[13:52:13] <Link Mauve> I then proceeded to close this biboumi tab to never come back there.
[13:52:19] <Zash> Kev: Things.
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[13:52:40] <jonasw> Kev, I argue that Message Attaching is more well-suited for emoji reactions, but feel free to weigh in if you disagree. I consider that one of the more irrelevant details though.
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[13:52:58] <Zash> Kev: All I hear are repeats of my Skype hating days. "XMPP just can't replace Skype" - said by peolpe who use it exactly as you would IRC
[13:53:06] <Kev> jonasw: I *think* that References simply supersedes Message Attaching, once it's fleshed out.
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[13:53:26] <jonasw> Kev, it does too much
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[13:53:43] <Kev> Zash: I think you can give me a little mileage in having an understanding of XMPP if I think some of the things Slack does that I use are hard to currently do in XMPP :)
[13:53:43] <jonasw> but I argue that in the linked thing already
[13:54:03] <Kev> And Reactions that Jonas is talking about is one useful example.
[13:54:17] <Kev> Other things are what I'm hoping to build on top of MIX once we've got MIX usefully out there.
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[13:55:16] <Ge0rG> I've abandoned MIX by now.
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[13:56:45] <Ge0rG> I'm also in favor of Message Attaching over References for reactions, because what jonasw said
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[13:58:01] <Ge0rG> I could live with a reference containing the message ID and a type='reaction', though
[13:58:11] <jonasw> Kev, also, my beef with references would be that it uses codepoint ranges into body but doesn’t handle multiple languages. that’s not relevant to reactions, but I expect some breakage originating from that.
[13:58:15] <Ge0rG> however, neither XEP provides an element to put the actual reaction into
[13:58:21] <jonasw> (and thus namespace bumps for things irrelevant to reactions)
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[13:58:39] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a simpling into the <message/>
[13:58:47] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a sibling into the <message/>
[13:59:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: my point is: we need a separate reactions XEP anyway
[13:59:10] <jonasw> yeah, that’s true
[13:59:30] <jonasw> hm, actually, I might post some aggregated feedback on references, I am finding quite a few things I dislike about it when reading it
[14:00:29] <Kev> jonasw: Give it a week or so, Edwin's sending out a major update imminently.
[14:00:44] <jonasw> Kev, oh-kay
[14:01:11] <jonasw> Kev, no wait, I’m going to send out that feedback anyways. From how I see things working usually, the major update will be delayed for some reason and then my feedback is lost, because I’ll forget about it
[14:01:14] <Kev> Or send it anyway and Edwin can integrate it, either way.
[14:01:16] <jonasw> also, maybe it can be incorporated into that update :)
[14:01:17] <jonasw> yeah
[14:01:42] <Seve/SouL> Are you just considering Reactions emoji-only things?
[14:01:53] <Zash> <reaction>meh</reaction>
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[14:02:43] <Ge0rG> Seve/SouL: no, but emoji will be the recommended way to react.
[14:03:15] <Ge0rG> Seve/SouL: the challenge is to determine how many codepoints correspond to one emoji
[14:03:35] <Zash> A bunch
[14:04:01] <Zash> <{reaction}meh/>
[14:04:11] <Kev> Why do you need to count the codepoints in an emoji? They're the reaction, not the source
[14:06:48] <Zash> Did someone suggest shoving semantics into <body>? Otherwise there shouldn't be any need for codepoint counting.
[14:07:00] <jonasw> I did not.
[14:07:09] <jonasw> I only want to shove fallback into <body/> :)
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[14:09:21] <Ge0rG> Kev: in case somebody wants to limit reactions to "at most one emoji"
[14:09:33] <Ge0rG> so you can't write a novel in there.
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[14:20:33] <Kev> For this one thing, I think not having a fallback is actually sensible Jonas.
[14:20:46] <flow> where is +notify specified? Is it only that single sentence in xep163?
[14:20:59] <Zash> flow: might be a bit in 60 too
[14:21:04] <Kev> 9.2, 60.
[14:21:24] <jonasw> Kev, why?
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[14:21:49] <Zash> Spam?
[14:22:04] <flow> hmm then xep163 is misleading, it tells me that appending +notify will make me receive all notifications related to the protocol that precedes the suffix
[14:22:09] <jonasw> Zash, if in response to the Reactions thing: people are doing that already anyways
[14:22:15] <Zash> Isn't half the point of these to compress eg a ton of 👍 replies?
[14:22:45] <flow> whereas xep60 tells that that I will only receive notifications about the node whose NodeID is the prefix
[14:23:07] <Zash> No the obvious solution here is to write a message with only 'm', which triggers a bot to say "$name says +1". Now you got twice the spam.
[14:23:19] <Zash> (This what actually went on in those Skype channels)
[14:23:25] <jonasw> (not to mention that if we don’t have a body on the message, it will be omitted from many archives.)
[14:23:29] <jonasw> (or may not be carbon-copied or something)
[14:23:55] <Kev> flow: How are the nodes named in 163?
[14:24:11] <jonasw> Zash, I feel you’ve got quite a trauma from skype.
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[14:24:37] <Kev> jonasw: We need to update how archiving works in the world of references. And it's by archiving bare-JID.
[14:24:41] <Zash> jonasw: Mmmmmmmmyeah
[14:25:09] <flow> Kev, xep163 doesn't really name nodes, its protocols like tune who do
[14:25:24] <jonasw> Zash, so, I’ve seen people in MUCs already doing the "name\n> message\nemoji" thing.
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[14:25:33] <flow> but what if such protocols define multiple nodes? xep163 gives the impression that I'll get notifications for all of them by a single +notify
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[14:26:04] <Zash> jonasw: right
[14:26:58] <moparisthebest> that article is interesting "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol."
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[14:28:29] <MattJ> moparisthebest, which article?
[14:29:31] <Ge0rG> MattJ: https://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/
[14:31:57] <flow> xml:lang='*'
[14:32:25] <flow> from the articel's "Message sent over XMPP using a test account created for research purposes" picture
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[15:05:11] <ralphm> Kev: the idea of splitting resources, as in the examples in MIX, have those ever been written up?
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[15:06:13] <Kev> I don't remember if I've put anything about it into bind2 or not.
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[15:17:00] <ralphm> I didn't find it in XEP-0386. I did notice it being expired.
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[15:20:41] <ralphm> Kev: in any case, the paragraph confused us here
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[15:50:30] <Ge0rG> I really hope that those split resources are going to die soon.
[15:50:54] <moparisthebest> sorry I got cut-off mid-type there it says "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol." but then proceeds to say the *real* problem
[15:50:56] <moparisthebest> "An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server."
[15:51:23] <moparisthebest> which is addressed in the base spec, not even an extension, in fact arbitrary account registration could just be off...
[15:53:00] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I think you are preaching to the choir
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[15:58:57] <winfried> When designing a protocol, you have to anticipate on user and implementer stupidity, but this a level of stupidity I would not be able to anticipate....
[15:59:17] <Zash> What's the saying?
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[15:59:44] <moparisthebest> well sure, just pointing out how dumb it is, it's only seperated by 2 sentences, don't know why an otherwise smart reviewer would do that
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[15:59:48] <Zash> If you design something idiot-proof, the universe will design a better idiot?
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[16:37:17] <Guus> hargh. Did some kind of DST change happen anywhere in the world, recently?
[16:37:39] <pep.> Lots
[16:37:44] <pep.> It's the week of hell
[16:37:44] <moparisthebest> yea EST did sunday morning
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[16:37:56] <moparisthebest> or EDT, whatever, flipped between them one way or the other :)
[16:38:13] <pep.> Its changed in the US but not in Europe aiui
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[16:38:19] <pep.> It's
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[16:38:27] <jonasw> when’s the switch in Europe btw?
[16:38:34] <Zash> Still +1 here
[16:38:36] <pep.> Next week I think
[16:38:41] <Guus> https://depositphotos.com/33062973/stock-illustration-comic-curses-speech-bubble.html
[16:38:57] <Zash> My feeling is "last weekend in mars"
[16:39:43] <jonasw> this time the last weekend is split between march and april, so I’m unsure
[16:39:56] <jonasw> right, march 25th in DE
[16:40:00] <jonasw> so probably the same in europe
[16:40:21] <moparisthebest> whenever I think about how terrible timezones and DST are now, I just imagine how much more terrible it'll be when people live on other planets :)
[16:40:30] <Zash> jonasw: Yay EU-standardization
[16:40:52] <jonasw> moparisthebest, star time 1520872849
[16:41:15] <Guus> I think all board members are in the same DST-change period, but council might not be. SamWhited, you're probably the only one this week with a different time. Don't be like Guus and miss a meeting.
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[16:41:57] <SamWhited> ack; I forgot about that, thanks.
[16:42:16] <Guus> (afaik, both board and council fixed the time to London time, thus using its DST switchover date, whenever that might be).
[16:42:29] <moparisthebest> jonasw, maybe but it won't be like that in the beginning, if people go to mars in the next 50 years or whatever it'll just be yet-another-far-harder-to-calculate-timezone, presumably
[16:42:50] <Guus> Well, you probably would've been an hour early, and not missed it by an hour, like I just did. :)
[16:43:07] <ralphm> Zash: it is actually 'the last Sunday in March'.
[16:43:14] <jonasw> that makes sense
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[17:20:43] <Ge0rG> It's really exciting what you can do with timezones (this is from 10 years ago) https://op-co.de/1984.html
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[17:23:52] <moparisthebest> am I the only one to find the opkode.com vs op-co.de distinction super confusing
[17:24:31] <MattJ> Nope
[17:25:02] <Ge0rG> I find it too.
[17:25:06] <moparisthebest> I read about half of the opkode.com blogpost earlier thinking odd Ge0rG updated his website until I got to the 'author of converse.js' part
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[17:25:58] <Ge0rG> I don't know how to resolve this problem, besides of undeservedly bitching on JC
[17:26:23] <moparisthebest> if you weren't both involved in XMPP it wouldn't be so bad :)
[17:26:36] <Zash> #OPCODEBOWL
[17:26:39] <moparisthebest> we clearly need a dual to the death
[17:26:45] <moparisthebest> duel even
[17:27:14] <Zash> Cleganebowl can go throw itself into the wall! Opcodebowl hype!!!
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[17:27:37] <jonasw> duel to death sounds like a bad idea
[17:27:38] <jonasw> really bad
[17:27:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG will lose
[17:27:46] <jonasw> jc knows how to wield a sword.
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[17:27:52] <jonasw> I’ve seen things
[17:28:20] <moparisthebest> but what a way to go out
[17:28:28] *Ge0rG puts on his wizard hat
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[17:53:16] <Ge0rG> https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc - we need the same for XMPP!
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[17:54:10] <moparisthebest> ah yea not bad, I like it
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[17:54:58] <Tobias> https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2018-m03/0075.html
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[17:57:02] <moparisthebest> so the same as https://github.com/moparisthebest/freespeech if the wordlist just consisted of 1024 emojis
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[19:21:25] <jjrh> Ge0rG, we already have it https://github.com/bluszcz/awesome-xmpp
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[19:21:56] <MattJ> and it lists 'Pidgin' under 'Clients'
[19:22:12] <jjrh> I'm not saying it's perfect
[19:22:26] <Zash> awesome used to mean something
[19:22:48] <jjrh> It's also missing a lot of stuff. Gajim isn't even listed :p
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[19:25:05] <SamWhited> If it's about "awesome" clients that's going to be a short list…
[19:26:12] <Zash> Now it seems to just be some curated list of stuff.
[19:26:15] <jjrh> not sure if you guys are being facetious or not - the 'awesome' thing is just a github thing for a repo that is just a big list of resources/information relating to something. It doesn't really quantify quality
[19:26:20] <Zash> It used to be a window manager!
[19:26:38] <SamWhited> I think some of my coworkers still use it as their window manager
[19:27:05] <SamWhited> But maybe that means it's just a list of window managers, most of which aren't actually "awesome"?
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[19:27:17] <MattJ> Zash, it still is!
[19:27:19] <jjrh> It's reasonably popular still I think. I was never able to adapt to tiling first workflow
[19:27:35] <MattJ> My window manager can do XMPP!
[19:27:35] <SamWhited> I use i3, but keep meaning to try awesome. No idea what the difference is.
[19:27:47] <MattJ> => awesome XMPP
[19:27:49] <Zash> i3 represent!
[19:27:58] <MattJ> The downside is that I only got it working in blocking mode, so my desktop was unusable
[19:28:02] <SamWhited> *highfive*
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[19:28:21] <jjrh> I should try i3 again - but I'm guessing even if it's great i'll never manage to get used to it coming from openbox
[19:28:24] <Zash> MattJ: Cool story bro
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[19:28:58] <Zash> I'm happy with i3, in that I finally found a window manager that let switch virtual desktops separately on each monitor
[19:29:10] <Zash> And does tabs
[19:29:18] <SamWhited> I used to use a mix of open box and xfce-wm, but stopped when I switched to i3 full time.
[19:29:28] <Seve/SouL> I use KDE Plasma
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[19:29:32] <SamWhited> What Zash said; that was the big draw for me as well.
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[19:30:03] <jjrh> Does it play nice with floating windows? What I always wanted was tiling for one monitor/virtual desktop and floating for others.
[19:30:09] <Zash> I've been trying to switch to LuaKit for browsing, so that i3 can do the window management instead of the browser
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[19:30:19] <Zash> buuuut now I'm back with a ton of firefox tabs :(
[19:30:23] <moparisthebest> I still use KDE since 2006 , been meaning to try i3 though
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[19:30:52] <jjrh> I got a coworker still using twm
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[19:31:00] <Zash> jjrh: duno what qualifies as nice, but it lets you have floating windows if you want to
[19:31:01] <Seve/SouL> moparisthebest, noo, please don't leave me alone on this
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[19:31:49] <jjrh> I guess can I get the best of both worlds? Because some stuff like coding I want tiled but a lot of other stuff is better floating.
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[19:32:25] <jjrh> Because I tried one tiling wm - umm a haskell one forget the name - and it was like "yeah you can do floating but uh don't"
[19:32:51] <moparisthebest> Seve/SouL: I've tried various things and never liked them, lxdm, gnome, xfce etc, i3 is much more different though, we'll see
[19:33:01] <SamWhited> i3 will respect whatever the free desktop attribute thing is that windows can set to say "I should be floating", so most tiny windows that should be floating already are in my experience
[19:33:18] <Zash> and you can write rules in the config
[19:33:45] <jjrh> Can you set a workspace to be floating by default? Basically can I use i3 like I use openbox but have a few workspaces that are tiled?
[19:34:02] <Zash> Duno, floating is set per window usually
[19:34:14] <Zash> Probably doable with some config
[19:35:15] <jjrh> I guess I should give it a go at some point.
[19:36:01] <jjrh> With the workspace per monitor - will it just make double the workspaces when you lose a display (aka undock your laptop) because that would be super rad.
[19:36:04] <Zash> I'd recommend trying dwm too
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[19:36:41] <Zash> Used it way back before laptops, it was very nice
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[19:37:07] <Zash> but on laptops it's always ended with abrupt power failure due to no battery monitoring
[19:37:33] <Zash> might be better now, it's probably managed by systemd these days ..
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[19:38:06] <jjrh> My pain is I have 2 monitors and I undock my laptop and not only is my laptop not 1080p so that messes stuff up - but all the windows from the two screens get crammed into one virtual desktop
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[19:38:42] <jjrh> so if i3 treats each monitor as a workspace then it should play nice with switching from 2 to 1 monitors.
[19:39:54] <Zash> if your video drivers are sane enough, you'd just get all the workspaces moved onto the other monitor
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[19:41:04] <SamWhited> That seems to be what mine does; I unplug my monitor and windows remain exactly the same on whatever workspace they were on (except maybe resized a bit)
[19:41:48] <Zash> The nicest thing is being able to move entire workspaces between monitors
[19:42:07] <Zash> IIRC no keybinding for it by default, but one can be set
[19:42:14] <SamWhited> Although I don't actually use a multi-monitor setup anymore; got an ultrawide and haven't looked back.
[19:42:33] <Zash> I've mostly got an xclock on the laptops monitor :)
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[19:43:19] <Zash> and an xterm to mke the clock be the right shape
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[19:45:24] <Zash> https://www.zash.se/upload/za9lYCrKESH1.png
[19:48:41] <jjrh> Zash, that's the problem - I want my wm to be smart enough to instead put them on a virtual desktop so everything isn't crammed together.
[19:49:11] <jjrh> So if I3 treats each monitor as a virtual desktop/workspace it should do the right thing.
[19:49:11] <Zash> Hm?
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[19:50:15] <jjrh> Like when I undock my laptop (which docked has 2 monitors) all the windows between two monitors go to one - which makes a big mess.
[19:50:20] <Zash> Yeah, not like most others where it's treated as a single large workspace that covers all monitors
[19:51:01] <jjrh> Yeah exactly - so that's awesome if that's what i3 does :)
[19:51:11] <Zash> It is and it is
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[20:32:51] <Ge0rG> I'm using fluxbox for something like 14 years now, and recently switched from VMware to VirtualBox. The latter seems to get something wrong, so I never see the full screen overlay. 😐
[20:34:31] <jjrh> I'd suggest you switch to openbox - I started on fluxbox but eventually switched.
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[20:34:57] <jjrh> depending how complex your config is it should be pretty painless.
[20:35:20] <jjrh> I don't think anyone has been working on fluxbox for a long time.
[20:35:23] <Ge0rG> Pretty complex.
[20:36:37] <Ge0rG> Funny thing. I've met the fluxbox maintainer in real life, long before realizing that he's the maintainer, on a retro irc party, when those were a thing
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[20:38:23] <jjrh> Yeah - might take a bit of time then. Everything is XML config in openbox and I think they renamed a few things so it's not a 1-1 mapping unfortunately.
[20:39:27] <Ge0rG> I shouldn't be complaining about xml too loudly in this channel
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[20:39:59] <jjrh> not complaining - just pointing out it's radically different than fluxbox configs :)
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[20:41:10] <jjrh> Ouch - looks like last release for openbox was 2010 :(
[20:41:43] <Zash> XML for config? Mmmmhm.
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[20:42:41] <jjrh> If I remember correctly the fluxbox configs were really brittle, one wrong space and everything breaks.
[20:43:43] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG: might go ahead and and skip virtualbox and go directly to virt-manager/kvm
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[20:44:01] <moparisthebest> I wish I had
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[20:52:12] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: Hm. Does it run macOS and Windows on a Linux host?
[20:52:44] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG: windows for sure
[20:52:55] <moparisthebest> Probably Mac? Haven't tried
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[20:58:48] <Holger> jjrh: I used Notion (successor of Ion3) in the past, that one has full-blown support for floating vs. tiling workspaces and handles multiple displays like i3 does.
[20:59:26] <jjrh> Interesting - thanks for that :)
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[21:02:01] <Holger> jjrh: I also ended up with i3 though. It's the younger and easier project and way more popular these days. Compared to that, Notion feels a bit clumsy, with a somewhat complex Lua configuration; i3 has a straightforward key=value config file.
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[21:03:03] <Zash> I see no `=` in `bindsym $mod+Tab move workspace to output right`
[21:03:35] <Holger> Well it's straightforward at least :-)
[21:04:25] <Holger> It's actually commands that take arguments, yes.
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