Thursday, March 15, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:18:02] <jonasw> after reading https://gultsch.de/converse_bookmarks.html, I think we should adapt the security considerations of XEP-0223 to include a strong hint that discovering support is vital for security
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[07:24:53] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that or doing the probing limbo dance
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[07:25:41] <jonasw> probing limbo?
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[07:27:47] <Ge0rG> Where you publish with options set and then query what the server did out of that
[07:27:59] <Ge0rG> BBL
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[07:28:44] <jonasw> and then your data is already public?
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[07:39:48] <Zash> Trying with non-sensitive data first?
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[07:40:14] <jonasw> not convinced
[07:40:21] <jonasw> discovering the feature seems more reasonable to me
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[07:41:29] <Zash> Of course.
[07:43:05] <Zash> Are the required features recent additions or what's the issue here?
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[07:43:28] <Zash> (assume I've lost all memory)
[07:44:15] <jonasw> no, people just apparently don’t check
[07:44:23] <jonasw> no, people just apparently don’t check if the service actually supports publish-options
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[07:48:58] <Zash> I approve of big angry warning in 223
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[07:53:55] <Ge0rG> Zash: PR or didn't happen
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[07:56:07] <jonasw> Ge0rG, #608
[07:56:08] <jonasw> :P
[07:56:11] <jonasw> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/608
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[07:58:26] <flow> jonasw, +1
[07:59:47] <jonasw> I was slightly shocked that a XEP which puts private data in pubsub boldly claimed that there were no security considerations above those in '60 and '163. I haven’t checked if "everything’s gonna be public" has been mentioned there, but not mentioning it in '223 anyways feels like negligent
[08:00:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw:
👍
Also I remember documentation somewhere on how to publish to PEP in a secure way, but probably it predated the latest publish-options
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[08:00:20] <jonasw> Ge0rG, daniel has some on his site
[08:00:26] <Ge0rG> Yeah, that
[08:00:38] <jonasw> this one probably: https://gist.github.com/iNPUTmice/7c52785ed69787516abb60e31703dbd2
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[08:01:31] <Ge0rG> I was looking into crawling all my contacts' PEP for their bookmarks for a while, but I never was sufficiently good at scripting xmpp
[08:01:49] <daniel> Ge0rG, just subscribe to the node
[08:01:57] <jonasw> does that give you a push when you come online?
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[08:02:15] <daniel> yes that'll push you all your contacts bookmarks
[08:02:19] <jonasw> neat
[08:02:21] <jonasw> lemme try that
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[08:02:26] <daniel> aehm +notify i mean
[08:02:29] <jonasw> sure
[08:02:33] <Ge0rG> daniel: you mentioned that, yes. But it still requires code to subscribe and to process events
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[08:02:50] <jonasw> heh
[08:02:55] <jonasw> lemme aioxmpp that for you
[08:02:58] <Ge0rG> If somebody writes a script that...
[08:03:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes please
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[08:03:52] <Zash> `storage:bookmarks+notify` ?
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[08:04:40] <Ge0rG> Are there any other use cases of private PEP?
[08:05:38] <daniel> i justed added that to Conversations very quickly. that was like two lines of code
[08:05:48] <daniel> when i tested that last month
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[08:07:33] <Zash> Just tried using clix. Boring, got nothing but disco#info queries at me.
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[08:08:20] <daniel> yeah it's not very widespread it seems. nobody uses converse.js (to publish! bookmarks) and in poezio it's just a rare corner case
[08:10:04] <Zash> What's `urn:xmpp:inbox`
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[08:12:28] <jonasw> Ge0rG, aioxmpp git pull && cd examples && python3 listen_pep.py --namespace storage:bookmarks
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[08:12:38] <jonasw> stop it with Ctrl+C
[08:12:47] <jonasw> I tested it with urn:xmpp:avatar:metadata
[08:12:56] <Zash> Uh, taking a thing that's meant for *broadcasting public data* and using it for storing private data?
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[08:15:16] <jonasw> it revealed the depressing amount of people using xep-0084
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[08:16:50] <Zash> About a quarter of my contacts, it seems
[08:17:28] <daniel> note that you wont receive pep notifications for offline contacts on ejabberd servers
[08:17:37] <daniel> that might distort what ever you are 'testing'
[08:17:40] <Zash> jonasw: Nice caps2 you got there
[08:17:51] <jonasw> :)
[08:18:02] <jonasw> the resource tells you why
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[08:26:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'aioxmpp' 😞
[08:26:44] <Zash> jonasw: Does it offer like an XML console/REPL hybrid thing? (like `clix raw`)
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[08:27:07] <Zash> If not, make one, it's the best thing since sliced bread
[08:27:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, enter our jabbercat virtualenv
[08:27:21] <jonasw> Ge0rG, enter your jabbercat virtualenv
[08:27:24] <Ge0rG> Oh, yes.
[08:27:33] <jonasw> Zash, yeah, it’s tricky to do that with asyncio though
[08:27:36] <jonasw> like, really tricky
[08:27:41] <jonasw> readline + asyncio doesn’t mix
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[08:27:57] <Zash> Can't pretend that stdin is a socket somehow?
[08:28:07] <jonasw> that’s not the main problem
[08:28:24] <jonasw> writing things on stdout asynchronously and expecting readline or whatever’s handling your input to cope by redrawing is "nope"
[08:28:34] <jonasw> I messed with that for some time and then gave up
[08:28:46] <jonasw> closest thing I can do is something based on urwid (pure-python ncurses-like thing)
[08:29:20] <jonasw> not to mention that doing actual raw XML is super-hard with aioxmpp
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[08:30:02] <Zash> clix doesn't use readline, just the bare io lib for reading stdin, and some clever lies told to the network server
[08:30:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: so it's idling there after I entered my password. Does that mean everybody I know is safe?
[08:30:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yeah
[08:30:25] <jonasw> modulo what daniel said
[08:30:25] <Zash> I usually wrap it in rlwrap. Not that it gets happy about showing new stanzas while you are typing something...
[08:30:46] <Ge0rG> ah, urn:xmpp:avatar:metadata happens to return a bunch of things.
[08:30:48] <jonasw> Zash, yeah, that can probably be done easily, but that goes against my perfectionism ;-)
[08:31:08] <Ge0rG> I demand a zemlyanka frontend.
[08:31:12] <jonasw> a what
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[08:32:45] <Ge0rG> that used to be a TUI binding for one of the large X11 toolkits. GTK I think
[08:33:09] <jonasw> creepy
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[08:33:51] <Ge0rG> I am waiting for a use case that mandates a resurrection of TurboVision
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[08:41:17] <Link Mauve> “13:27:28 Steve Kille> Ge0rG: military users like to have lots of tabs, so they can monitor many chats at once, with keyword highlighting to draw attention to things they care about. I have been told of an operator with 64 rooms displayed”, damn, I should get into this business, they’d see my poezio with 216 tabs (currently)!
[08:41:34] <jonasw> 216 is a great number
[08:42:00] <Link Mauve> About half of those are private discussions, the rest are MUCs.
[08:42:04] <Zash> Link Mauve: You are promoted to General. Report to the president at once. ;)
[08:42:30] <Seve/SouL> Haha
[08:43:32] <Link Mauve> Zash, it’s with the very concept of war that I have an issue, so sadly I can’t make use of my great poezio skills that way.
[08:43:51] <jonasw> Link Mauve, sabotage them from the inside!
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[08:57:03] *rion just implemented optional session in Psi.
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[14:33:11] <Martin> Any Boardies about?
[14:33:23] *MattJ waves
[14:33:57] <Martin> Hi MattJ
[14:33:58] <MattJ> ralphm, Guus
[14:34:11] <ralphm> I'm here, but also in a telco
[14:34:28] <ralphm> Can somebody else take the lead for this meeting?
[14:34:51] <Martin> I can
[14:35:05] <MattJ> Thanks Martin
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[14:35:30] <Martin> 1. Roll Call:
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[14:35:48] <Martin> Me, MattJ, and ralphm in his peripheral vision
[14:36:09] <Martin> 2. Minutes.
[14:36:12] <Martin> Any volunteers?
[14:36:39] <MattJ> I'd rather not volunteer, as I already have outstanding commitments...
[14:36:42] <Guus> I'm half here
[14:37:25] <jonasw> I would, but I can’t promise that I don’t have to disappear in the next 30 minutes, sorry.
[14:37:35] <Martin> OK, I'll try and scribe after the fact
[14:37:42] <Martin> 3. Topics for decisions
[14:38:03] <Martin> 3.1 Board Priorities
[14:38:31] <Martin> From last week's minutes, seems like there's a meeting that needs arranging
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[14:38:41] <Martin> Anyone know where that's at?
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[14:39:19] <Guus> Nyco has asked me for availablity a couple of times
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[14:39:30] <Guus> Don't know the current state.
[14:39:42] <Martin> OK, let's kick it along the road to next week
[14:39:44] <Guus> At some point, I think we should give up on this.
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[14:40:13] <Guus> Sooner rather than later.
[14:40:14] <MattJ> wfm
[14:40:27] <Martin> Let's give it another week, then see where we are
[14:40:37] <Guus> K
[14:40:38] <Martin> 3.2 Bus factor / bank account
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[14:40:51] <Guus> I failed to ping Peter
[14:41:22] <Guus> Still waiting on feedback from the bank, AFAIK
[14:41:27] <Martin> OK
[14:41:36] <Martin> 4. Commitment list
[14:41:46] <Martin> 4.1 Board priority meeting: dealt with above
[14:41:58] <Martin> 4.2 Membership survey, MattJ?
[14:42:20] <MattJ> Not finished, but I may send a draft for feedback to the board list in the next day or two
[14:42:30] <Martin> Cool
[14:42:42] <Martin> 4.3 Prepare discussion points regarding the Fundraising and Financing discussion.
[14:42:45] <Martin> Guus?
[14:43:15] <Guus> I did not plan to be here today (I sent apologies) and did not prepare for that.
[14:43:19] <Martin> OK, no problem
[14:43:20] <Guus> Next week
[14:43:48] <Martin> 5. Items for discussion
[14:43:55] <Martin> 5.1 Fundraising & finance
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[14:44:04] <Martin> I'm guessing we should postpone this topic given the above?
[14:44:07] <MattJ> +1
[14:44:12] <Guus> Yup
[14:44:24] <Martin> 6. AOBs
[14:44:25] <Martin> Any?
[14:44:40] <MattJ> None here
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[14:44:42] <Guus> Not from me
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[14:44:50] <Martin> Righto
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[14:45:09] <Martin> 6. Date & time of next? Everyone OK with +1W, 14:30 UK time? (I know some DSTs kcik in)
[14:45:35] <MattJ> wfm, I think everyone is going to switch at the same time anyway
[14:45:45] <Guus> It's 14:30 always, right?
[14:45:52] <Martin> Guus: It is indeed
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[14:45:58] <Guus> Wfm
[14:46:10] <Martin> Excellent, then I think we're all done. Thanks all!
[14:46:15] <MattJ> Thanks Martin :)
[14:46:16] <Guus> Tx
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[16:51:30] <Maranda> . . .
[16:51:33] <Maranda> . .
[16:51:34] <Maranda> .
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[16:52:19] <Maranda> Pidgin still uses legacy sessions? Oh rly?
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[16:52:43] <Zash> Everything uses them
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[16:53:13] <Zash> Some servers required it, and there wasn't any way to know that it was optional.
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[16:53:32] *Maranda eyes Neustradamus.
[16:53:57] <Zash> So it must be used if offered.
[16:54:10] <Zash> Or you risk not being able to login at all
[16:54:13] <Maranda> And what if not offered?
[16:54:19] <jonasw> yeah, learnt that the hard way with aioxmpp
[16:54:25] <Maranda> Pidgin breaks? yay.
[16:54:32] <Zash> If not offered then ???
[16:54:53] <Holger> Now there is an <optional/> tag right ...
[16:54:54] <Zash> Probably some clients will do it anyways because reasons, and shoot themselves right in the connection.
[16:54:59] <Maranda> if not offered then pidgin = "borked" end
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[16:55:11] <Maranda> XD
[16:55:34] <jonasw> classic pidgin
[16:55:36] <Maranda> Neustradamus, what you made me do :P
[16:55:37] <Zash> Holger: In an expired draft...
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[16:55:51] <Holger> Zash: Well, yeah.
[16:56:15] <Zash> Prosody does add optional tho.
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[16:57:32] <Maranda> Holger, I (re-)added the optional and changed the default to not offer legacy sessions by default and guess what... An e-mail this morning stating someone using Pidgin can't login.
[16:57:42] <Maranda> woohoo
[16:58:06] <Zash> Heh, https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/rev/0bbbc9042361
[16:58:08] <moparisthebest> actually that might be good
[16:58:09] <Zash> Praise waqas
[16:58:21] <Zash> That might predate the draft
[16:58:41] <moparisthebest> if they can't login with pidgin, then it's "pidgin sucks", if they login with pidgin successfully then it's "xmpp sucks"
[16:59:09] <Zash> moparisthebest: whoever touched it last gets the blame
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[17:00:50] <Holger> moparisthebest: I think XMPP sucks if we break interop for no good reason.
[17:01:36] <Zash> First rule of Internet protocols: It has to work.
[17:02:00] <moparisthebest> that's if you define pidgin's xmpp implementation as 'working otherwise'
[17:02:51] <Holger> Depending on the use case it works just fine of course.
[17:03:23] <moparisthebest> for the use case of work like AIM in 1999 sure
[17:03:30] <Holger> That's the #1 strength of XMPP. We can add a ton of modern stuff without breaking Pidgin.
[17:03:48] <Holger> moparisthebest: Yes for many of my co-workers that use case hasn't changed.
[17:04:07] <moparisthebest> I'm not so sure, whenever someone says 'XMPP Sucks' if you ask enough questions it usually boils down to 'Pidgin Sucks'
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[17:04:12] <Holger> Saying it's good to break stuff for them because Pidgin doesn't fit your use cases is going for Matrix.
[17:04:24] <Zash> > If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Common saying about things that appear to work, but are actually horribly broken.
[17:04:28] <Holger> If I wouldn't care about compat I'd ditch XMPP and start from scratch.
[17:05:06] <Holger> moparisthebest: I'm sure he'll love XMPP if you break Pidgin's ability to initiate a session altogether.
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[17:06:40] <Zash> Maybe even Pidgin with GTalk
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[17:07:30] <moparisthebest> I'm just saying virtually every time I've had a discussion with someone that said xmpp sucks, they meant pidgin connected to gmail sucks
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[17:07:55] <moparisthebest> luckily half of that is gone now
[17:08:09] <Zash> Is it really tho?
[17:08:15] <moparisthebest> I thought it was?
[17:08:21] <Zash> Federation is dead
[17:08:21] <jjrh> I think the solution for pidgin is either: A) Fix pidgin's xmpp support or B) convince distributions to ship something else by default.
[17:08:27] <Holger> moparisthebest: I do not doubt that. The thing I don't understand is how you come to the conclusion that breaking Pidgin helps with that problem.
[17:08:48] <Zash> jjrh: Too attractive to ship one thing, get all the protocols
[17:09:20] <jjrh> Zash, I'd be interested in how many people actually use pidgin for much other than XMPP and possibly IRC.
[17:09:42] <moparisthebest> pidgin user's should be used to stuff breaking, lync support always broke when I used pidgin for it
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[17:09:50] <moparisthebest> of course official lync client isn't much better...
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[17:10:22] <Zash> moparisthebest: Have you tried suggesting alternative clients when you reach the conclution that pidgin is the problem? Assuming they understand or admit it themselves?
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[17:11:05] <moparisthebest> yea, every one I've convinced to try Conversations really likes it
[17:11:08] <jjrh> I mean ummm 5 or so years ago pidgin was okay. You could connect to a bunch of chat systems with it. These days everything has broken their support. I migrated to bitlbee for a while then gave up and just open browser tabs
[17:11:34] <Zash> moparisthebest: because that's probably one of the times they'd be most receptive to it
[17:11:56] <Zash> it sure doesn't work to say something like "your thing sucsk, try mine"
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[17:13:55] <Holger> Even less so if your thing was a desktop client and mine runs on Android.
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[17:14:55] <jjrh> Pidgin dev is pretty dead by the looks of things. :P
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[17:15:19] <Holger> Sure.
[17:16:09] <jjrh> Last news update was 2016
[17:16:42] <Holger> So what? It's not like I recommend Pidgin to anyone, ever. It's just that I don't fancy breaking Pidgin for no good reason, that's all.
[17:17:02] <Holger> (And Pidgin just being an example, of course.)
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[17:17:19] <moparisthebest> not for no good reason, but you also wouldn't want to hold everything else back just for pidgin compat
[17:17:29] <moparisthebest> it's a balance I guess
[17:17:35] <Zash> Last commit seems to be less than a month ago tho
[17:17:44] <jjrh> No I agree - breaking a client isn't a good idea. My point is more the reason pidgin is used - even if it's ONLY for xmpp - is because it's installed by default on the majority of popular distributions.
[17:17:54] <Holger> moparisthebest: This was about offering <session/> (as a no-op). This doesn't hold back anything.
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[17:21:42] <Zash> It can't really be removed at this point, but adding <optional> allows it to be skipped by aware clients
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[17:22:01] <Holger> Yes I'm all for <optional/> (and ejabberd adds it as well).
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[17:22:57] <Holger> Without <optional/> it does hold back saving that round trip of course.
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[17:26:53] <Maranda> Holger I don't think Pidgin cares about optional.
[17:27:00] <Maranda> :P
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[17:28:00] <Zash> Clients that don't know about <optional> pay the round trip price.
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[17:29:52] <Holger> Maranda: Of course not.
[17:30:38] <Maranda> And it will say "error initializing session" if it's not offered as well lol.
[17:30:57] <Holger> Maranda: Yes. Optional is the way to allow modern clients to save the round trip without breaking old ones.
[17:31:19] <Holger> (Am I not stating the obvious?)
[17:31:28] <Maranda> I'm not sure if I should change the default of legacy session offering back to true.
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[17:31:43] <Holger> Why not?
[17:31:51] <Maranda> I suppose so.
[17:32:50] <Maranda> Holger, I didn't consider Pidgin would break, I should have probably.
[17:34:00] <Holger> Well I'm obviously not complaining about an oversight, just about an "it's fine to break old clients" attitude.
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[17:35:21] <Maranda> Holger, oh I didn't want to break anything I didn't expect it to break :P
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[17:36:20] <Zash> Can we fight over dialback instead?
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[17:38:30] <fippo> zash: you can fight with me!
[17:38:31] <Holger> Zash: It should die who cares about old servers!!
[17:39:15] <Zash> Kill it with fire!
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[17:41:04] <Zash> Or at least get xep-0178 to match whatever current consensus is
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[17:41:43] <Holger> Yeah 0178 should be fixed.
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[17:42:15] <Holger> Next issue we ran into with Dialback is 0198 feature negotiation.
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[17:42:56] <Zash> Because it's not advertised on unauthenticated connections? And there's no advertising at all after authentication-by-dialback
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[17:43:07] <Holger> 0198 says "negotiate when authenticated" Dialback says "go go go when authenticated!".
[17:43:15] <Holger> Zash: Right.
[17:43:57] <Zash> Which means it has to be advertised before auth
[17:44:30] <Zash> Or limited to connections with SASL EXTERNAL
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[17:44:43] <Zash> I wonder if BIDI didn't have some similar issue
[17:45:25] <Zash> In at least one of those cases I just went with EXTERNAL-only
[17:45:37] <Holger> Yeah I think I'm going for limiting it to SASL EXTERNAL. So I'm back to "burn Dialback with fire".
[17:45:51] <Maranda> well yes you can't use db on the same stream for bidi.
[17:45:58] <Maranda> You need to open another.
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[17:47:25] <fippo> holger: mind you, in the past when those specs were written the percentage of servers that had usable certificates was single-digit
[17:48:10] <Holger> fippo: Yes, sure :-)
[17:48:24] <Holger> Some things do improve.
[17:49:18] <Maranda> Holger, or it's even worse maybe....
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[17:50:16] <Maranda> no it's not.
[17:50:34] <Holger> (Then again, if the attacker can mess with DNS to circumvent Dialback he can also get a Let's Encrypt cert, no?)
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[17:51:08] <fippo> holger: dialback is online. getting a certificate is an offline attack.
[17:51:11] <Zash> Did anyone ever formalise "samecert"?
[17:51:43] <fippo> zash: dwd and me talked about it. i might even have implemented it but not sure if i ever pushed it somewhere
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[17:51:51] <Maranda> <<Pidgin client working with Lightwitch again (starting ~11:30am CT). Thanks! >>
[17:51:53] <Maranda> aww
[17:52:06] *Maranda rolls eyes.
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[17:54:20] <Maranda> well if you have BIDI and dialback you need to support dialback errors because the BIDI XEP mandates so anyways
[17:54:26] <Zash> fippo: I might have done a plugin with half of it (in one direction if there's already an open session in the other)
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[17:55:00] <Zash> and d-w-d
[17:55:18] <Maranda> so if you don't... well I'm not sure what you need to do since db support is advertised right on the stream header yay.
[17:55:37] <Maranda> So pretty
[17:57:24] *Maranda just supports db errors, and opens another stream to do dialback if it's a BIDI stream.
[17:57:33] <Maranda> brb
[17:57:47] <moparisthebest> if a server only supported the latest state of the art of everything, and no legacy, it probably would interop just fine with all somewhat recently updated servers right?
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[17:58:08] <Maranda> a server?
[17:58:10] <Zash> Disable dialback and see what happens
[17:58:14] <Maranda> yeah
[17:58:46] <Maranda> although most servers now do SASL external since alle the free certificateness.
[17:59:45] <moparisthebest> I guess what I'm asking is, if you were writing a server from scratch today, would you support dialback?
[18:00:06] <moparisthebest> I'm thinking you wouldn't have to
[18:00:20] <Maranda> yes
[18:00:57] <Maranda> moparisthebest, you need it if SASL external fails for whatever reason.
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[18:01:26] <Zash> Security related failure, let's proceed anyways!
[18:01:26] <moparisthebest> well or you just, fail
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[18:02:52] <Maranda> Zash, *security* le like self-signed certificate? CA error? Let me think. Hmm yes let's continue anyways.
[18:03:28] <moparisthebest> how many servers today don't have valid CA signed certs that you actually want to communicate with?
[18:03:33] <moparisthebest> I would hope few to none
[18:03:42] <jonasw> could grep through xmpp.net database
[18:03:49] <Zash> moparisthebest: 1/3 according to xmpp.net/stats
[18:03:49] <jonasw> or ask holger to grep through his one on messaging.one
[18:03:55] <jonasw> oh neat
[18:04:01] <moparisthebest> sure I bet there are a couple with IBR enabled from 2005 or whatever, but you explicitly do not want those to s2s with you
[18:04:19] <moparisthebest> well I said "that you want to communicate with" :)
[18:04:21] <jonasw> https://xmpp.net/reports.php#trust
[18:04:24] <Maranda> because if your CA isn't included in someone's OS does it make "not valid"? Just saying trust is one thing validity another me thinks.
[18:04:39] <Maranda> because if your CA isn't included in someone's OS does it make it "not valid"? Just saying trust is one thing validity another me thinks.
[18:04:42] <jonasw> moparisthebest, probably you want to communicate with all of them, otherwise you’re like microsoft who think that blacklisting whole IP ranges is okay.
[18:04:52] <moparisthebest> there is essentially 1 CA list, and that's whatever mozilla/google uses
[18:05:10] <Maranda> Yay
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[18:06:24] <moparisthebest> I'm not really sure what's going on on the reports.php page
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[18:06:40] <moparisthebest> is the trust numbers only of those servers that do TLS
[18:06:50] <moparisthebest> because you don't want to talk to any non-TLS ones anyway
[18:07:05] <moparisthebest> ha, or the 1 with the 512 bit RSA key lol
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[18:08:16] <moparisthebest> but yea my point is there are whole classes of servers you do not want to s2s with, look at the ones using SSLv2, even SSLv3
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[18:08:42] <MattJ> Just because someone is on a server that uses SSLv2, do I not want to communicate with them?
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[18:09:10] <moparisthebest> yes, all decent servers shouldn't communicate them so they'll fix it or move
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[18:09:20] <MattJ> Yes, it has weak/no transport security, but does it automatically follow that I would never want to communicate with them? :)
[18:09:28] <Maranda> moparisthebest, I think you're confusing security with trust.
[18:09:33] <Maranda> moparisthebest, I think you're confusing security with identity trust.
[18:09:53] <moparisthebest> they are 2 different issues, but both lead me to not want to interop with that server
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[18:11:53] <Maranda> when dialback got dished out I think it was more about asserting and authenticating identity but that's me, and while the two things may go hand in hand someone may say.
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[18:12:11] <Maranda> when dialback got dished out I think it was more about asserting and authenticating identity but that's me, and while the two things may go hand to hand someone may say.
[18:13:02] <moparisthebest> well it also allows for insecure connections, so it's a bit of a mixed bag
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[18:13:33] <Maranda> Encrypted streams when Jabber was Jabber?
[18:13:42] <Maranda> :P
[18:14:03] <Maranda> or following short after?
[18:14:12] <Maranda> or even now? *eyes cisco.com*
[18:14:17] <moparisthebest> I haven't been around it that long :P
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[18:14:31] <moparisthebest> and maybe that's the reason I view it like this
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[18:15:00] <moparisthebest> but things that made sense then like dialback, haven't made sense now for a long time, and I see no reason to support legacy code to interop with a server last updated in 2005
[18:15:04] <Zash> moparisthebest: lucrative customer wants to talk to you. they use an ancient jabberd release from the 1800s and support only SSL 3. what do you do?
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[18:15:52] <moparisthebest> I guess you could say "I'll talk to you only if we upgrade your server" :P
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[18:17:38] <moparisthebest> I once dropped a contracting side job because they wouldn't drop windows XP
[18:17:53] <Maranda> moparisthebest, to talk with cisco.com I need dialback, to talk with M-Link I often need dialback because it complains the purpose of my certificate is wrong I suppose (YAY).
[18:18:35] <Zash> ah yes, LE certs aren't technically/strictly valid for XMPP s2s or somesuch
[18:18:35] <moparisthebest> seems like a lot of work to talk to legacy systems that need to burn
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[18:20:31] <Holger> Zash: I think they are. Or at least they don't miss that bit that the StartSSL certs missed.
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[18:20:55] <Zash> Holger: The bit saying "This is ok as client certificate"?
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[18:21:07] <Holger> Yeah.
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[18:21:24] <Holger> Web Client Whatever Something.
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[18:22:04] <Zash> TLS Web Client Authentication
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[18:23:54] <moparisthebest> hmm does xmpp.net not say what IP it's connecting to? or at least v4 vs v6 ?
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[18:40:17] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I think it can only do v4
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[18:40:23] <jonasw> due to deployment fubar
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[18:47:06] <moparisthebest> ah ok, would be nice eventually to test both like http://ssllabs.com/ does for https
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[18:50:13] <Zash> Is anyone aware of any remaining Group Chat 1.0 clients?
[18:50:36] <Zash> Or is can we get rid of that without breaking anything
[18:50:42] <Ge0rG> Zash: didn't you plan to write something to log GC1 joins?
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[18:51:10] <Ge0rG> Maybe combined with version-querying the respective client, so we can check if it's just presence desync
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[18:51:26] <Ge0rG> I volunteer to run that code on yax.im for a week, and then to make a PR against 0045.
[18:51:33] <Ge0rG> [I feel lucky]
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[18:52:52] <Zash> Well I did add some logging already.
[18:53:11] <Ge0rG> Is it already deployed on my server? :>
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[18:53:34] <Zash> Probably not
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[18:54:58] <Ge0rG> Can I deploy it without restarting the server?
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[18:55:30] <Zash> Not running trunk with debug logging enabled right?
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[18:56:04] <Ge0rG> Zash: [version yax.im]
[18:56:16] <Ge0rG> Zash: {version yax.im}
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[18:56:17] <Zash> sans bot
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[18:56:18] <Bunneh> Zash: yax.im is running Prosody version 0.10 nightly build 460 (2018-02-03, 980d2daf3ed4) on Linux
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[18:56:28] <Ge0rG> quoting. It drives me crazy.
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[18:59:20] <Zash> Hm, I thought I had that code excracted out already
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[19:13:58] <Zash> Ge0rG: Link Mauve did report some numbers that I didn't write down, unscientific as I am.
[19:14:10] <Zash> Or did I dream that?
[19:14:27] <Link Mauve> Wait, let me read the backlog.
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[19:14:53] <Ge0rG> Zash: I remember that as well.
[19:15:10] <Ge0rG> I think the number of GC1 clients reported was 0
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[19:20:11] <Link Mauve> Ah right, over a period of one week (our debug log retention time) we saw 47 GC1.0 joins, zero of which from a client which didn’t support MUC.
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[19:20:43] <Link Mauve> (And only from two bare JIDs in total, but multiple times.)
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[20:42:21] <Ge0rG> I'd like to replicate the measurement on my server
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[21:15:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[21:20:45] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:21:01] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:52:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:52:55] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[23:02:05] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:06:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[23:07:40] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
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[23:20:18] <Neustradamus> https://xmpp.org/rfcs/ <-- a lot of RFCs are missing no?
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[23:23:07] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[23:29:14] <Guus> which ones?
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[23:31:55] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[23:32:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[23:33:57] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[23:45:06] <Neustradamus> RFC 8284
RFC 8266
RFC 8048
RFC 7700
RFC 7702
RFC 7712
RFC 7622
RFC 7590
RFC 7572
RFC 7573
RFC 7395
RFC 7340
RFC 7248
RFC 7247
RFC 7259
RFC 7165
RFC 7081

RFC 5437
RFC 4979
[23:47:57] <Neustradamus> -> RFC 7395 (WebSocket)
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[23:53:20] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[23:53:20] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[23:54:34] <Guus> kindly add a PR?
[23:57:21] <Neustradamus> I do not know ^^
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[23:57:54] <Neustradamus> I have already notified too the missing XMPP logo with XMPP text
[23:58:15] <Neustradamus> Maybe some messages are lost in the XMPP network