Friday, March 16, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:38:55] <jonasw> edhelas, goffi, care to give feedback on the current XEP-0394 discussion? Even feedback of the type "We’ll need full XHTML anyways, so do whatever you folks want" would be valuable. specifically starting at https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034588.html

thanks
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[10:03:49] <Guus> goodday! I'm working on migrating bookmarks (0048) from private xml storage (0049) to pep (0223). I'm was surprised to find a difference between the pubsub node defined in 0048 example 3 (the published item root element is 'storage', that itself contains 'conference') and 0233's example 3 (the published item root element is 'conference' directly, without the wrapping 'storage'). I expected those two examples to have the same structure. What's going on there?
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[10:04:27] <jonasw> didn’t we firstw ant to discuss whether we want to make that multi-item to avoid the races?
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[10:08:01] <Guus> the last update to the xep was in 2008. That's a long discussion. :)
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[10:09:16] <Zash> The update that changed it from private xml to pep?
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[10:10:22] <Guus> Yeah. Both xeps descrbe the PEP way of doing things, but use a different xml structure.
[10:10:31] <Guus> that's mildly confusing, at best. :)
[10:10:50] <Zash> Well, if you needed evidence that nobody has looked at this since :)
[10:11:05] <Guus> so... which one is it? :)
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[10:11:21] <jonasw> Guus, look at what converse.js does. it might be the only implementation around.
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[10:12:39] <Guus> LOL. JC is right here - as in, we're both in London, sharing an appartment, hacking on code :)
[10:12:49] <Guus> which is why this came up in the first place
[10:12:59] <jonasw> IETF?
[10:13:08] <Guus> no
[10:13:34] <Guus> I think he later also attends a JMAP session, unsure (he's still in bed, we were coding until 3am last night)
[10:13:46] <Guus> I'm leaving later today
[10:14:02] <jonasw> secret xsf meetup, eh?
[10:14:08] <Guus> littlebit :)
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[10:14:36] <Guus> well, we did discuss doing this more often, and having mini hackathons or something
[10:14:42] <jonasw> make a secret XSF meetup in Dresden, I’ll join
[10:14:46] <Guus> we've been pretty productive, and it's good fun
[10:15:02] <Guus> well, he's in germany, I'm in the netherlands... I we can make something work. :)
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[10:20:02] <vanitasvitae> Dresden is even further away than Berlin 🙁
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[10:23:34] <deleteme9> Oh. I considered going to that jmap session as well. But time...
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[10:24:42] <Zash> RIP email
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[10:26:06] <MattJ> JMAP is great
[10:26:18] <MattJ> if it's ever adopted
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[10:26:47] <Zash> But JSON and HTTP? Meeeeeh :(
[10:27:02] <daniel> Depends. It's still pretty close to imap. Which is both a good thing but also a bad thing
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[10:27:25] <MattJ> I once tried to write an IMAP client in Javascript
[10:27:32] <daniel> I have an unfinished library for an earlier version of jmap somewhere on my disk
[10:27:32] <MattJ> JMAP is great
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[10:28:12] <Zash> MattJ: "in Javascript" :|
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[10:29:15] <MattJ> Zash, find me a nice UI framework as an alternative :/
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[10:31:44] <Tobias> JS the UI framework? :)
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[10:33:40] <MattJ> Tobias, no, just HTML/CSS/JS is a portable well-documented stack for writing apps, with a large ecosystem
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[10:34:01] <Tobias> yup
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[10:34:14] <jonasw> for certain definitions of well-documented
[10:34:17] <MattJ> It comes with the choice of multiple runtimes, pretty much all of them large complex and bloated, but everyone has them installed
[10:34:48] <Tobias> everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway
[10:34:54] <Tobias> everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway (Electron)
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[10:35:40] <Zash> It's a linked document system that evolved into an application platform.
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[10:40:50] <Guus> Daniel, MattJ, do you guys use PEP for private data storage?
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[10:41:45] <MattJ> Prosody doesn't currently support private PEP nodes
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[10:43:05] <MattJ> Roadmap is: Make our PEP implementation use the same code as our "full" pubsub implementation (done, pretty much) -> add publish-options support (in progress, almost done hopefully) -> add access model support (should be trivial)
[10:43:36] <Zash> Permissions and such are configurable, but only internally.
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[10:44:29] <deleteme9> Guus: not yet
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[10:45:27] <Guus> deleteme9: you are aware that you are here as 'deleteme9'?
[10:45:28] <deleteme9> I'd switch bookmarks over in a heart beat. But I don't want to support both
[10:45:35] <deleteme9> Yes
[10:46:02] <deleteme9> I'm on a dev phone with a different account
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[10:46:12] <Guus> I'm finalizing a change in Openfire that would allow you to query the same data over both
[10:46:16] <deleteme9> And that phone was closer
[10:46:48] <Guus> However, there appears to be a descrepancy in 48/223
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[10:46:52] <deleteme9> Guus: yes. That's what I'm afraid of. If you then push to both as a client that will get ugly
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[10:47:21] <deleteme9> Not the descrepancy but what you Said earlier
[10:47:29] <MattJ> A disco feature was proposed
[10:47:36] <deleteme9> Can't type fast enough on my new phone
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[10:53:27] <Guus> We're not keeping two distinct sets of data - we're using one set, that you can modify both through private xml storage as well as through the PEP thingy
[10:53:54] <Guus> the private xml storage does not broadcast, as far as I know, so it'd be up to the client to pick and choose one way to exchange this data?
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[11:08:25] <edhelas> Guus thanks <3
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[11:08:36] <edhelas> Movim is already using Bookmarks on PEP for years
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[11:08:54] <Guus> edhelas: can you review what I just send to standards@ then?
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[11:28:18] <jonasw> who’s deleteme9?
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[11:31:11] <Guus> daniel
[11:31:29] <jonasw> ah
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[11:33:33] <edhelas> Guus done :)
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[11:34:17] <Guus> tx
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[11:38:39] <daniel> i think that difference between 48 and 223 makes sense if you assume that you want to put each bookmark in its own item
[11:38:44] <daniel> which would be kinda nice
[11:38:59] <daniel> but when in doubt 48 is right because 223 is just an example
[11:39:19] <Guus> agreed.
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[11:54:21] <Zash> Oh and the <publish-option> issue where only pubsub#access_model is actually defined, has that been resolved?
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[12:01:00] <Guus> Zash: I'm unsure what you're referring to
[12:01:51] <Guus> are you talking about the security issue where the publish-option can easily be ignored, which can lead to publication of items under false settings (such as by accident publicly publishing data that's ment to be private)?
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[12:03:05] <Zash> Guus: No, the fields in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html#example-3
[12:03:17] <Zash> Well. pubsub#persist_items
[12:03:20] <Zash> What does that mean?
[12:05:32] <daniel> I think that has been resolved hasn't it?
[12:05:33] <Zash> Oh, '60 has been fixed so the're all preconditions?
[12:05:37] <Zash> Well then
[12:06:30] <daniel> Yes after some discussion in which unfortunately not many people participated it has been decided that this is the best move
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[12:07:01] <Zash> Text in '60 makes sense
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[12:19:48] <Guus> yeah, those options confused us too. What we ended up with is that they are preconditions that must be met for existing nodes, and configuration overrides for nodes that do not exist (assuming auto-create is allowed).
[12:21:00] <Zash> This conflicts with cloud push, dontit?
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[12:22:16] <daniel> Zash: not if the app server doesn't announce publish options as a feature
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[12:22:33] <daniel> But yes that should probably be changed somehow
[12:22:48] <daniel> Maybe by push not using pubsub syntax at all
[12:23:03] <daniel> But at least on paper we don't have a problem here
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[13:07:20] <lovetox> what clients do use user mood and user activity
[13:07:21] <lovetox> ?
[13:07:35] <Zash> Pidgin
[13:07:40] <lovetox> i just thought about the xep and it feels a bit useless
[13:07:52] <lovetox> user can set status message with presence
[13:08:05] <lovetox> he can put emojis and any text he like in there
[13:08:15] <lovetox> why would he set beside that a mood
[13:08:32] <intosi> Because not everyone is interested in that info. Presence flooding is a real thing.
[13:08:58] <Zash> Was emoji even a thing back then?
[13:09:14] <lovetox> i didnt mean it was useless back then
[13:09:18] <lovetox> i wonder about today
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[13:09:42] <lovetox> idont see this as presence flooding
[13:09:45] <Zash> If combined with access controls, you could in theory only show your closest friends your mood. Or somesuch.
[13:09:51] <lovetox> you will not change more often your mood than your status
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[13:11:15] <lovetox> i re-evaluate these xeps in gajim currently so i wonder if its worth to keep them
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[13:11:42] <lovetox> would it not make more sense to have a user status xep
[13:12:00] <lovetox> just a node where a user can publish multiple things that could be extended
[13:12:06] <lovetox> like a link to a picture
[13:12:14] <lovetox> or video
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[13:12:28] <Zash> Hm, wasn't the need for a status-in-pep xep agreed upon already?
[13:12:53] <jonasw> yeah, that was part of summit
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[13:13:01] <jonasw> lovetox, go write it down, it’ll get accepted
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[13:15:04] <lovetox> yeah maybe i invest my energy into that instead of refactoring code for mood and activity
[13:15:15] <lovetox> because almost no one supports that anyway
[13:15:31] <Zash> Poezio and pidgin does
[13:15:44] <Zash> Or, activity at least
[13:16:03] <Zash> Yeah, mood too
[13:16:14] <lovetox> so what does a status xep need
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[13:16:24] <lovetox> text obviously
[13:16:36] <lovetox> a way to add a URI to some file or video
[13:16:36] <Zash> <show> and <status> from presence probably?
[13:17:06] <lovetox> really show?
[13:17:10] <Zash> URI?
[13:17:12] <lovetox> why we have that in presence
[13:17:31] <lovetox> why would i need it in status again
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[13:20:49] <Zash> I got the impression that consensus was that the things in <presence> ought to be in a per-account PEP thing instead.
[13:21:09] <Zash> And the relevant things are basically just show and status
[13:21:27] <lovetox> you talk like you can get rid of presence
[13:21:45] <lovetox> presence will be there, so the show information is already known to the client
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[13:22:26] <lovetox> hm or is it possible to leave show out of presnece?
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[13:22:46] <Zash> I said nothing about removing from presence.
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[13:23:04] <Zash> It'd probably be a mess of both anyways
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[13:23:42] <lovetox> also different resources can have differen show
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[13:29:11] <lovetox> show can never be in a pep node
[13:29:24] <daniel> There was talk at the summit (and I tend to agree with the idea) to remove Show and status from presence and put that into a pep node
[13:29:29] <lovetox> if i disconnect, the pep node will show online forever
[13:29:45] <daniel> Because if you are dnd with one client you probably want to be dnd with all
[13:30:01] <lovetox> but than you need server addon
[13:30:10] <daniel> And what ever clever status you came up with you probably want that to be global as well
[13:30:10] <Zash> Well, sometimes I don't want you to disturb my phone, but you can talk to me at my desktop
[13:30:11] <lovetox> that changes the show inside the pepnode in some circumstances
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[13:31:09] <daniel> Zash: with carbons that will arrive at your phone though and disturb you there anyway, no?
[13:31:17] <lovetox> yeah what Zash said, im not sold on that, seems forced, and the only plus is that you can sync show over clients, but who really wants that
[13:31:20] <Zash> Yup
[13:31:47] <Zash> I was fairly happy with how it worked when I originally stared with Jabber after all
[13:32:28] <lovetox> if you set status DND on your client and he still notifys you the same as when you are online
[13:32:29] <Zash> I didn't want to move to everything everywhere all the time and everything persisted forever on some cloud somewhere
[13:32:35] <lovetox> i woudl say thats a client problem
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[13:33:12] <Zash> And a dnd status doesn't seem to stop people from messaging anyways
[13:33:46] <lovetox> why should it? if you dont want to get messages go offline
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[13:34:40] <Zash> lovetox: re your original question, why not rip out mood and stuff into a plugin (or tell those who wants the feature to write a plugin)
[13:35:05] <lovetox> because i need to add a api to show the icons than
[13:35:13] <lovetox> and maintain that until the end of time
[13:35:26] <lovetox> lets do a status xep
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[13:36:54] <lovetox> but this show idea has way to many holes for me
[13:37:06] <lovetox> and also its just not really solving a problem
[13:37:34] <lovetox> i never heard someone complain that he wants his status synced over all clients
[13:37:57] <MattJ> lovetox, plugins being able to show icons next to the contacts, for a client like Gajim, seems like a nice idea :)
[13:38:05] <lovetox> was the current trend not to dont even allow and show status changes ^^
[13:38:34] <Zash> it seems to be coming back
[13:38:44] <Zash> you can be ahead of the curve!
[13:38:52] <Zash> trens are often cyclic after all
[13:39:02] <Zash> I mean gateways and transports are apparently all the rage again
[13:40:00] <Maranda> Are they?
[13:40:11] *intosi dusts off Jabber RPC
[13:40:49] <Zash> Isn't that the sell with Matrix?
[13:40:58] <Maranda> 🤣 🤣
[13:40:59] <Zash> And the whole Slack bridge issue
[13:41:12] <lovetox> hm what does movim?
[13:41:25] <lovetox> do they put status into pubsub
[13:41:25] <Maranda> XMPP bridge/federation of MatriX?
[13:41:30] <Zash> And the thing where we've got a new generation of a bazillion different services and people are getting fed up with having a ton of chat apps at once
[13:41:56] <Zash> All the old is new again!
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[13:42:21] <edhelas> Also tons of social network accounts
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[13:43:32] <moparisthebest> are there tons of social networks? I thought it was essentially just facebook
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[13:43:51] <moparisthebest> same with chat really, except like 8 of 10 top chat apps are just facebook owned...
[13:44:11] <Zash> don't forget how google has a dosen or something
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[13:44:28] <Maranda> Huhu
[13:44:37] <Zash> also signal, wire, telegram, ... others
[13:45:06] <Maranda> All I use is Facebook and Instagram... Or should I count WhatsApp too?
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[13:45:15] <edhelas> IRC
[13:45:19] <moparisthebest> someone in some xmpp muc pasted a chart of the top 10 chat apps recently...
[13:45:26] <moparisthebest> not recently enough for me to find in history though
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[13:47:05] <Maranda> I tried to get someone to use Conversations apparently it's "nerd stuff", "rocket science" 🤔
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[13:55:59] <moparisthebest> I tend to think there is no hope for a user that just wants to use their phone number and no username/password
[13:56:18] <moparisthebest> because that's really the only hurdle to conversations over whatscrap
[13:57:10] <lovetox> i can tell you that order moparisthebest
[13:57:25] <lovetox> whatsapp, facebook, weechat, rest
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[14:02:54] <moparisthebest> weechat the IRC relay? no way normal users use that
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[14:03:24] <moparisthebest> I was shocked recently when a few newish ~25 year old programmers started at work and hadn't heard of IRC... :'(
[14:03:36] <lovetox> So was the talks about the status xep anywhere written down
[14:04:02] <lovetox> then i give it a try to write down a xep
[14:04:23] <lovetox> moparisthebest, wee chat is the biggest messenger in china
[14:04:55] <lovetox> i think a billion users easy
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[14:05:22] <moparisthebest> "WeeChat is a free and open-source Internet Relay Chat client" https://weechat.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeeChat
[14:05:33] <moparisthebest> ah so you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat :)
[14:06:02] <lovetox> lol, ok there are 2 :d
[14:06:38] <moparisthebest> I'd only heard of the IRC one, wikipedia has at the top "Not to be confused with WeChat." but clearly they *are* to be confused haha
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[14:18:03] <lovetox> is there somewhere a list with all published xeps?
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[14:18:36] <moparisthebest> lovetox, https://xmpp.org/extensions/ ?
[14:18:51] <lovetox> yes nice
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[14:19:08] <Neustradamus> lovetox: Psi/+
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[14:19:25] <moparisthebest> lovetox, also https://github.com/xsf/xeps if you'd rather grep XML or whatever
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[14:20:50] <Neustradamus> Today, I have looked the https://xmpp.org/registrar/namespaces.html, not all are on it
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[15:01:04] <Guus> Neustradamus: please provide fixes.
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[15:18:40] <lovetox> can xep 372 be used for quoting older messages?
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[15:20:25] <lovetox> or was the idea something different
[15:20:42] <lovetox> because im a bit confused why it says message MUST NOT contain a body
[15:20:57] <lovetox> quoting messages without adding a reply seems not so nice
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[15:28:48] <lovetox> ah no i see we have 0367 for that
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[15:28:57] <lovetox> seems reference use case is something differnet
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[15:31:00] <lovetox> ok no thats also not it
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[15:31:59] <lovetox> i hoped there is something easy like adding a stanza id so the other client knows this is a reply to that message and can show it as a quote
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[15:32:52] <lovetox> though a client that does not support that would miss the meaning..
[15:33:01] <lovetox> hm i guess i stick to > for quoting
[15:33:29] <lovetox> or use the new 0394
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[15:35:26] <MattJ> ITYM 393: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html#quote
[15:35:32] <moparisthebest> plus it's not like stanza id is globally unique, or that you can rely on any client actually having that copy?
[15:36:20] <Zash> the touple of (jid, stanza-id) should be tho
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[15:37:27] <lovetox> and why should i care if someone uses a client thats no able to generate a uuid?
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[15:37:46] <lovetox> people should not use these clients
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[15:39:10] <lovetox> with stanza-id i meant message-id
[15:39:25] <lovetox> i was not talking about a mam added stanza-id
[15:39:26] <moparisthebest> still the second part is true isn't it?
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[15:41:07] <lovetox> yes, contact not having the referenced message is a problem
[15:41:29] <lovetox> using 0394 is also a problem
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[15:41:59] <lovetox> if the other client doesnt support it, every trace of quote is gone
[15:42:39] <moparisthebest> I'd say just use 393 just like everything has always done even before 393 or even xmpp
[15:42:44] <lovetox> this might be one of the exceptions where you want to mix markup and 0394
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[15:42:58] <moparisthebest> good enough for email/irc, good enough now :)
[15:43:23] <lovetox> how is this good enough if you receive a message like this
[15:43:30] <lovetox> > do it like that
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[15:43:35] <lovetox> who wrote this message?
[15:43:39] <lovetox> who am i quoting?
[15:43:42] <moparisthebest> looks like you quoted a message to me
[15:43:46] <lovetox> what time was this message written?
[15:44:27] <lovetox> all these things could be added in 0394
[15:44:36] <moparisthebest> > [TIMESTAMPHERE] lovetox: bla bla bla
[15:44:39] <moparisthebest> good enough
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[15:45:06] <moparisthebest> doesn't 394 have a way to discover if a contact has support? if not it's useless
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[15:45:40] <lovetox> yes but this does not help you if there are multiple devices, and your contact is offline
[15:45:50] <moparisthebest> then you can't use it
[15:45:50] <lovetox> discovery for such things was always a bit meh
[15:46:00] <lovetox> most people just ignore it
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[15:46:13] <lovetox> like with message receipts
[15:46:25] <lovetox> i dont care if a contact supports that or not
[15:46:28] <lovetox> just send it
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[15:47:11] <lovetox> and the same with xhtml etc, maybe contact comes later online with a client that knows xhtml and loads message from MAM
[15:47:35] <moparisthebest> well you can always send both like some clients (pidgin?) does with xhtml and open up all sorts of security problems with PGP/OMEMO/OTR
[15:47:53] <lovetox> yes encryption is a trap
[15:48:16] <lovetox> but after falling in this trap i have now a sanitizer that has a tag whitelist
[15:48:17] <moparisthebest> or you can ignore 394 and just send messages every client will understand regardless of if they have explicit 393 support or not...
[15:48:22] <lovetox> so this can never happen again
[15:48:56] <lovetox> gajim supports > quoting
[15:49:24] <lovetox> but i think about ways to draw it more beautiful, and a reference to the original message seems helpful with that
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[15:49:53] <lovetox> so doing > blabla
[15:49:58] <lovetox> and adding more stuff via 0294
[15:50:03] <lovetox> 0394
[15:50:21] <lovetox> and when displaying with 0394 support, delete the > out of the message
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[15:50:44] <lovetox> this seems one of these exceptions where you want to have markup inside body
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[16:57:17] <Ge0rG> Markright.
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[17:33:27] <Guus> How is the German meetup going? #PicsOrItDidntHappen
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[17:56:09] <Holger> Guus: Very well, 11 people, a few of them first-time visitors.
[17:56:40] <Holger> > #PicsOrItDidntHappen

My upload is currently broken, sorry 😉
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[17:59:20] <MattJ> Holger, nonsense, it's HTTP, it just works!
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[18:01:31] <Guus> Holger: what he said!
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[18:06:53] <Ge0rG> Holger: you need a better client then.
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[21:30:10] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[21:32:46] <lovetox> so i written down a xep draft
[21:32:50] <lovetox> inside a xml file
[21:32:58] <lovetox> how can i get this to be rendered?
[21:33:05] <lovetox> if i open it with chrome it shows nothing
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[21:46:17] <Neustradamus> lovetox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html
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[21:48:40] <lovetox> thx Neustradamus
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[21:55:08] <lovetox> hm nice ok worked :)
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[22:17:22] <lovetox> so here http://www.funkroom.net/xep/xep-status.html
i copied most of the stuff from other xeps hope this is no problem
does someone care to tell me what was talked about and what should go into this
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[22:37:51] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[22:44:28] <edhelas> soon Presence over PEP ?
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[22:53:08] <lovetox> the question is why do i have to parse from 2 xeps and one core mechanic stuff to get the full status of a contact
[22:53:13] <lovetox> presence, mood, activity
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[22:54:25] <lovetox> i just want to provide a textfield where the user can put in whatever he likes (emojis, text) and publish this to all my contacts
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[22:54:37] <lovetox> not send a presence, publish my mood, then publish my activity
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[22:56:49] <lovetox> and with the added bonus of pep syncing this also to my other clients, this just makes sense :)
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