XSF Discussion - 2018-03-20


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  488. Ge0rG So Facebook is in the middle of a huge data protection scandal. Can we widely deploy XMPP now?
  489. moparisthebest has left
  490. flow no
  491. Ge0rG Ah, still no web client.
  492. Ge0rG Yeah well, let's wait for the next scandal then
  493. Tobias let's wait for the Facebook Uber merger, then everything will be fine
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  495. mrdoctorwho Uber has chat already, and you can view your driver's profile
  496. mrdoctorwho Not so far from FB
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  501. moparisthebest uber did just directly kill their first person yesterday so
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  503. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, > Ah, still no web client. Your information is outdated )
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  505. Andrew Nenakhov As for Uber killing person, from what I got about this incident, person got himself killed with Uber
  506. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: tell me about an as-easy-as-slack xmpp client!
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  508. Ge0rG I expected that.
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  511. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, Xabber, of course
  512. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: does it already have Carbons by default?
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  515. Ge0rG Can I self-host Xabber-Web? Is there Xabber-iOS?
  516. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, of course it does, for more than a year. Of course you can host it.
  517. Andrew Nenakhov iOS version is coming. Currently it's still ugly (not Mohal or ChatSecure-level ugly, though) but it does work more or less ok.
  518. Andrew Nenakhov We plan to release it in late April if all goes well
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  520. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: that's great news! Will Xabber-Web work without xabber-websocket?
  521. Andrew Nenakhov Nope. But there is no workaround and if it's self hosted you can still run it on your own server
  522. Andrew Nenakhov It can in theory work with Bosh but result is shitty. Way too slow.
  523. daniel Andrew Nenakhov: why doesn't it use regular websockets though?
  524. daniel I thought xabber-websocket is just a tcp websocket proxy
  525. daniel For servers that don't have websockets
  526. Ge0rG Can I use wss://web.xabber.com/websocket to port-scan remote servers? :D
  527. Andrew Nenakhov Can't work without proxy for off-site domains
  528. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, actually you can )
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  530. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: my next question would be "can I portscan redsolution DMZ", but it looks like a VPS / colo server :>
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  536. Ge0rG > Group chats are not implemented yet. No xabber-web for me :(
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  539. Andrew Nenakhov Xep-0045 is broken by design and we don't even want to waste time on it, sorry
  540. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: there should be a prominent [+] button in the web UI
  541. Andrew Nenakhov There is ) or you want it even more prominent?
  542. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: 0045 is fixable. Have you looked at MIX already?
  543. Ge0rG And I should be able to just start a chat with somebody by typing their JID into the "Search chats" / "Search contacts" box
  544. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: the (+) button will add a contact or an account (the latter should be part of the preferences)
  545. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I'd like to talk to a JID without adding them first.
  546. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: or maybe have an (+) when I stopped typing a JID
  547. Andrew Nenakhov No way, spammer!
  548. Ge0rG like Chrome's universal input box, you enter a string and the client figures out what you want
  549. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I hope you are kidding
  550. Andrew Nenakhov No subscription no talk. 😈
  551. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I hope you are kidding
  552. Ge0rG xabber-web will show and notify me of messages from foreigners, so why shouldn't it allow to start chats?
  553. Andrew Nenakhov There are reasons. Mainly because Xabber web is heavily archive centric
  554. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: but it's got a nice clean UI and a good registration flow
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  556. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: and your MAM defaults to roster-only?
  557. Andrew Nenakhov And we can't gather messages from strangers with current mam
  558. Ge0rG Why not? You can just MAM everything?
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  560. Andrew Nenakhov We can, but how exactly do we extract data from it after browser reload?
  561. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: good point. You could query everything from last 1hr / 24hr / 14d...
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  563. Andrew Nenakhov Too data expensive. We're working on server protocol to solve this problem.
  564. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: something like "list of recent chat JIDs"?
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  569. Andrew Nenakhov Of course. We call it list of recent conversations.
  570. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I'd love to see the XEP for that
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  573. Andrew Nenakhov It will be, if it'll work well.
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  579. daniel Fwiw other people are working on the same thing
  580. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, MIX will never be in ejabberd so no reason to even look at that ) and no, 0045 is not fixable. If you want push notifications on mobile client , you need ad hoc rubber band aids, if you want to talk seamlessly from different clients you need aids like bookmarks. Better do a new proper group chat.
  581. daniel Under the name 'inbox'
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  583. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I disagree. I'm fixing the little warts of 0045, one after the other.
  584. Kev Fix them all and put the enhancements in and eventually you'll have 369.
  585. Andrew Nenakhov It's beyond help in our opinion. :-/
  586. Ge0rG Kev: the enhancements that are only needed by a vocal special-case minority, and that complicate the protocol tremendously?
  587. Kev I mean mostly just putting pubsub nodes for extra data.
  588. Ge0rG Kev: IMVHO, we can rescue MIX by axing at least half of the XEP.
  589. Kev I'm potentially up for that.
  590. Maranda Chop chop
  591. Ge0rG people are making fun of us for that XEP.
  592. MattJ Doing so (if the right half is axed) then I'm potentially up for implementing it in Prosody again
  593. Kev I think very possibly the user server stuff goes away, for one thing. Waiting for thoughts from Dave and Matt on that.
  594. Ge0rG MattJ: the hard part will be getting consent on which the right parts are.
  595. Ge0rG Kev: that's not the part I wanted axed.
  596. Kev Which part do you want axed?
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  598. Ge0rG I'd even argue that we can have userserver-side MUC persistence today, based on bookmarks and with zero protocol updates
  599. Maranda 🛠️
  600. Ge0rG Kev: proxy JIDs would be the highest prio thing for me to get rid of.
  601. Andrew Nenakhov We'll implement good group chat to our liking, make it work on our server and 3 (6?) platforms and call it a day )
  602. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, those bookmarks that are already proposed to be replaced? 😂
  603. Ge0rG Kev: I'm still opposed to roster integration of MIXes, but this is a minor one
  604. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: it doesn't matter which bookmarks are used.
  605. MattJ Andrew Nenakhov, so interop is not a goal for you?
  606. Maranda So muc is being replaced with something with higher running complexity or that's gonna get "axed" right...?
  607. Ge0rG Kev: message retraction can be solved with LMC. Direct invitation needs to get half of the fields stripped, because security. current MAM use is a huge mess
  608. MattJ Maranda, theoretically MIX's foundations are simpler than MUC's, I believe
  609. Ge0rG MattJ: in practice, it inherits most of MUCs problems.
  610. Andrew Nenakhov Interop is definitely a goal. I'm just not a fan of making theory-based standards. One should be implemented first and work well. Then standard can be based on implementation.
  611. Maranda I love the *practically* more MattJ you know me 😘
  612. Ge0rG Kev: I think that's it, from a brief look through the MIX TOC
  613. Ge0rG Zash: IIRC you volunteered to implement a PoC server-side MUC idle client
  614. Ge0rG let's call it "MUC bouncer" ;)
  615. Andrew Nenakhov We do software, implement on Android, iOS, web, maybe even desktop, then publish docs.
  616. Maranda ... Because if we end with something that is O(N^2) on most things again we might as well stay with MUC. 😀
  617. Zash Ge0rG: not quite
  618. Kev We can't do pseudonymous rooms without something like proxy JIDs, though.
  619. Ge0rG Kev: Sam had a nice proposal of burner JIDs, which would be added into the routing mix
  620. Ge0rG Kev: so you register with a burner JID component and use that identity to join MUCs, MIXes etc.
  621. Ge0rG Kev: I'm sure that can be polished into a proper protocol with some amount of work, and it would remove the proxy JID stuff from MIX
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  623. Ge0rG proxy JIDs are a pseudonymity emulation only anyway.
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  625. Andrew Nenakhov Ejabberd developer said they won't implement MIX
  626. Kev I maintain that it's a Really Bad Idea to bake anonymous proxies in like that.
  627. Ge0rG Kev: to bake them into what exactly?
  628. Kev XMPP
  629. Andrew Nenakhov No support in ejabberd == XEP dead on arrival
  630. Ge0rG Kev: as opposed to special-case anon proxies in MIX?
  631. Kev Yes.
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  637. Ge0rG Kev: I know well what happens if we provide anon proxies to the masses (see IBR bot spam), but what would be wrong with having a burner proxy attached as a component on a MIX service, with no external s2s?
  638. Ge0rG One could argue that such a proxy could enforce a given "burner" JID for a given source JID, so the mapping would be a constant 1:1
  639. Kev And the compexity ends up much greater like that than it is with MIX proxy JIDs.
  640. Ge0rG Kev: except that the complexity will be spread onto multiple components that can be debugged individually
  641. Kev I don't think that's true, you end up needing to break the abstractions, I think.
  642. Ge0rG Kev: I'd like to see proof of that.
  643. Kev Of all the bits of MUC that are hard to work with, I'm not convinced that there being proxy JIDs are them.
  644. Ge0rG Kev: I haven't even started addressing the hard bits from MUC yet. I'm only speaking of the new exciting MIX features
  645. Guus has left
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  648. ralphm Andrew Nenakhov: I think you are misinformed
  649. ralphm Andrew Nenakhov: there's been ongoing work for ejabberd on MIX for almost two years now
  650. Andrew Nenakhov ralphm, Evgeniy Khramtsov told me himself
  651. Andrew Nenakhov I'll ask him again, ok
  652. ralphm https://docs.ejabberd.im/tutorials/mix-010/
  653. Dave Cridland has left
  654. Dave Cridland has left
  655. Dave Cridland has left
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  657. Tobias has left
  658. Holger ralphm: Yes this was during the early stages of MIX development.
  659. Holger I think Andrew is right that zinid isn't motivated to implement the current revision (nor am I).
  660. marmistrz has left
  661. ralphm That's regrettable.
  662. Dave Cridland has left
  663. Ge0rG Not at all, for a specification you need approximately a business day just to read and to make sense of.
  664. ralphm Holger: is that because of complexity, or because there's no (current) business justification for working on it?
  665. ralphm Ge0rG: fwiw, XEP-0060 is a lot bigger
  666. Ge0rG ralphm: luckily, nobody ever implemented all of 0060.
  667. ralphm This is false
  668. Ge0rG "no single party"?
  669. edhelas 0060 is a specifc XEP, each time you look at it you find new features and things to implement
  670. Ge0rG MIX makes use of 0060, so you need that in addition to MIX.
  671. Ge0rG And then there is the publish-options security nightmare we had recently.
  672. Dave Cridland has left
  673. flow A quick word count shows that xep60 is 1.7x the size of MIX, FWIW
  674. flow and both are not XEPs I would mention as good examples
  675. Neustradamus has joined
  676. Ge0rG They are good examples for design by committee.
  677. flow which committee?
  678. Andrew Nenakhov Committee of people who wouldn't implement it in software
  679. Ge0rG flow: I assume this is a rhetorical question
  680. ralphm that's ridiculous, most of XEP-0060 was defined by just the three people on the author list
  681. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, not everyone knows this ideom
  682. ralphm and for MIX, the people that wrote it are also implementing it
  683. flow ralphm, I doubt that
  684. flow uhh, implement*ing*
  685. edhelas it would be nice to have a propre IRL discussion about just Pubsub
  686. intosi smiles
  687. flow I read implemented
  688. edhelas have a state of the art, see what we understand, maybe with a hackaton to fix the things that we're talking about
  689. edhelas https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/PubSubIssues
  690. Holger ralphm: I can't really speak for zinid, but for him it might be a bit of both. As MIX development stalled they came up with their MUC/Sub thing as a temporary solution, and now that mostly does the trick for their customers.
  691. ralphm I'm sure there are issues, but the statement that it was design-by-committee and by non-implementors is just false.
  692. Holger ralphm: I wasn't involved with implementing the earlier draft, but according to zinid it was much easier to actually re-use PubSub code back then.
  693. alexis has joined
  694. moparisthebest are there problems with muc-sub ? like a reason it isn't a good replacement for MUC/MIX?
  695. Holger As far as I'm concerned it's just the sheer complexity which is demotivating.
  696. Dave Cridland has left
  697. flow At it's core MIX isn't that complex
  698. flow It's just everything stuffed into the XEP, just like PubSub, that makes one wanna run awawy
  699. flow And it becomes hard and harder to distill the gist out of as longer as it stays that way. IIRC ppl attempted a few years back to modularize xep60/PubSub and that never got anywhere
  700. ralphm flow: that was just editorial, not actually changing anything in the protocol
  701. flow ralphm, I know
  702. flow but even that would improve the situation
  703. edhelas I'm ok to have a couple of days and do that with a bunch of persons
  704. ralphm flow: I still have the stacks intosi and I made a few summits ago
  705. edhelas 0060 is the core of many many things that we are doing at the moment, from MIX, to PEP related XEP, MAM is linked to it
  706. manuel-rubio has joined
  707. flow IIRC Zash was running with scissors too
  708. Zash I helped
  709. intosi Yes.
  710. intosi As did Chris, by finding printers with enough reams of paper.
  711. Dave Cridland has left
  712. Zash The threshold for resuming that seems high :/
  713. edhelas is it possible to just rewrite it ?
  714. edhelas starting from the bases and slowly adding back all the features that we had
  715. edhelas it's what I'm doing when I have to refactor code and it's a mess
  716. flow Maybe a good starting point would be to tag every xep60 section as mandatory-to-implement or optional in a wiki page and start from there
  717. flow edhelas: rewriting xep60 appears to be to drastic, inefficient and error prone, but maybe that's not what you had in mind?
  718. edhelas well not really
  719. edhelas I was saying to basically re-understand the substance of all the sections, maybe put that on a wiki, and rewrite properly those things once we figured out the whole schema
  720. manuel-rubio hey! I was checking MIX and I'm still checking it (there are still several typos) but I wanted to change the section 6.3, Ensuring Message Delivery to use "ping" (XEP-0199) instead of the "marker" tag (that's confusing me with markable from Chat Markers (XEP-0333), how can I propose it?
  721. edhelas but it would be more efficient to do that IRL, during a meetup, like a full day, 3 personnes with already some Pubsub background and a set of rules
  722. flow manuel-rubio, send a PR, but what's the motivation behind that change?
  723. rion has left
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  725. ralphm edhelas: I think the split is already more or less clear, I'll see if I can pick that up again
  726. jubalh has left
  727. ralphm But I'm not sure if that is a blocker for building MIX
  728. flow ralphm, Is the split documented somehere?
  729. ralphm as I said, I have the stacks of paper here
  730. flow would be great if it where on some wiki page or such, so that more people could participate
  731. flow and contribute
  732. Ge0rG ralphm: my design-by-committee impression of MIX results from each involved party stuffing their favorite feature into the specification, and us ending up with a huge and complex piece of meta-protocol.
  733. ralphm from the top of my head it is roughly: basic stuff, managent/admin stuff, advanced use cases (publish options, content-based subs)
  734. moparisthebest ralphm, I don't know all the details, but wouldn't you agree it's pretty obvious MIX is too terrible to implement considering it's years old and has 0 implementations?
  735. moparisthebest the developers have spoken, you could say
  736. ralphm I don't know if there's a correlation, no
  737. moparisthebest it's really the only point that matters
  738. edhelas ralphm I'd be happy to have a session with you to work on that :D
  739. moparisthebest I mean you can figure out *why* no one is interested in implementing it and fix those things, or you can continue to say "it's not that bad" and convince no one
  740. edhelas maybe we can organise a Dutch Summit "Let's Make Pubsub Great Again"
  741. moparisthebest MPSGA doesn't quite roll off the tongue :P
  742. edhelas let's do some caps and tshirts for the next FOSDEM :p
  743. Dave Cridland has left
  744. Andrew Nenakhov I'd rather support slogan "Let's Make XMPP Great Again". Just kidding, XMPP was never great. So real slogan should be "Let's Make XMPP Great For Once"
  745. Kev Except that there are implementations of MIX, BTW.
  746. SamWhited Kev: link?
  747. Kev Dave's got some, at least.
  748. Ge0rG If a tree falls in a forest, ...
  749. Tobias for Openfire
  750. SamWhited The only thing I see from searching is someone else asking for a link on a Jira issue last year sometime (either September or November, no idea what this date format is) with no response.
  751. jubalh has joined
  752. moparisthebest Kev, iirc dave half implemented a super early version of MIX in openfire
  753. mrdoctorwho has left
  754. moparisthebest not sure I'd count that
  755. flow So no real implementations of MIX?
  756. SamWhited What happened with ejabberd's implementation? Someone earlier said they weren't going to implement it, but they did have one for a while IIRC?
  757. SamWhited If they gave up, that doesn't bode well for the people who keep saying it's not as complicated as it sounds.
  758. MattJ A bunch of people (including us [Prosody]) implemented the early stuff
  759. flow SamWhited, I think there never was code I would descripe as MIX implementation in ejabberd
  760. Dave Cridland has left
  761. Ge0rG SamWhited: zinid (Evgeniy) said multiple times that there will be no MIX in ejabberd
  762. MattJ Possibly even before the XEP was submitted
  763. Holger flow: Well it was an earlier revision.
  764. SamWhited https://docs.ejabberd.im/tutorials/mix-010/ ?
  765. SamWhited What happened to that?
  766. Holger It's still around.
  767. waqas has joined
  768. SamWhited Holger: is it being developed, or was it abandoned?
  769. Holger https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/blob/master/src/mod_mix.erl
  770. flow Holger, was it tested against an client?
  771. MattJ The XEP just grew too big too fast, and with the current XEP I have no intention of implementing
  772. Holger SamWhited: It's not being developed. The XEP then went into a different direction.
  773. Holger flow: Is there a MIX client?
  774. MattJ But this conversation began from the suggestion that the situation may be improved
  775. SamWhited Thanks
  776. daniel That seems to be part of the problem. That mix is a moving target and people who initially implement something that was then changed completely are now afraid that the standard might change again
  777. SamWhited So that's multiple major servers that have old half implemented versions or say they have no intention of implementing. Sounds like we need a rethink.
  778. flow Holger, I'm not aware of one. I think the GSOC project last year tried to produce one but failed
  779. daniel At least that's in part what stops me from implementing it
  780. jonasw daniel, +1
  781. Holger daniel: I'm more afraid the standard won't change again :-)
  782. daniel 😂
  783. jonasw it seems not too bad to me atm
  784. jonasw I don’t like the weird roster integration
  785. Ge0rG > daniel: I'm more afraid the standard won't change again :-) 🤣
  786. intosi has left
  787. Kev has left
  788. Kev jonasw: I think the XMPP2 rules may well do away with that.
  789. jonasw Kev, how that?
  790. Ge0rG Kev: so you want to bet XMPP2 on MIX?
  791. Kev Ge0rG: The opposite, I think.
  792. Kev Use the XMPP2 routing rules in MIX.
  793. moparisthebest it's also not just server devs, no client dev seems interested in it either
  794. moparisthebest currently it's a non-starter
  795. moparisthebest s/currently/past few years/
  796. Ge0rG Kev: so you are not talking of the weird roster integration?
  797. Kev I'm interested in it in all our clietns and our server, just haven't got to it yet.
  798. Kev Ge0rG: I think the roster integration can probably go away once routing rules change.
  799. Ge0rG I'm interested in fixing MUC
  800. alexis has left
  801. Ge0rG Kev: please enighten me on how those interdepend
  802. jonasw moparisthebest, I *am* interested, but I don’t implement things without something to test against.
  803. Maranda > That seems to be part of the problem. That mix is a moving target and people who initially implement something that was then changed completely are now afraid that the standard might change again Or more likely that now it's ending being twice as cumbersome as muc is.
  804. Maranda Sounds more likely
  805. alexis has joined
  806. jonasw MUC is too simple though.
  807. jonasw see the mess Multi-Session Nicks is
  808. Ge0rG Maranda: and it also adds a bunch of legacy MUC issues
  809. jonasw that ain’t going to be fixed by putting some ducttape on MUC
  810. moparisthebest again are there problems with muc-sub ?
  811. Ge0rG jonasw: ITYM "underspecified"
  812. moparisthebest fully backwards compatible seems a huge giant plus
  813. jonasw moparisthebest, what’s muc-sub?
  814. daniel Maranda: well when I say _part of the problem_ I mean in fact _part_
  815. moparisthebest jonasw, something actually implemented https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
  816. jonasw moparisthebest, is there a XEP?
  817. flow jonasw, something you can test against an implementation: https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
  818. moparisthebest that is a xep, kinda? :)
  819. Holger jonasw: Basically 0045 plus PubSub notifications for offline members.
  820. edhelas daniel by the way, what are your plans regarding Bookmark support in Conversations, you want to move to a PEP storage ?
  821. jonasw moparisthebest, xeps are on xmpp.org/extensions/xep-%04d.xml ;-)
  822. flow jonasw, there is also muc-light
  823. moparisthebest jonasw, some are in inbox, some haven't made it there yet
  824. moparisthebest XSF kind of made clear 'MIX is the way, we don't care about what any actual developer thinks'
  825. moparisthebest which is why I assume it wasn't submitted
  826. jonasw where did the XSF make that clear?
  827. Ge0rG moparisthebest: XSF mainly consists of developers.
  828. flow a few years ago, when the demand for persistent groupchat rose, many MUC replacements appeared, unfortunately we only have one as experimental XEP
  829. SamWhited I was all for sticking with one way forward when mix was a bit smaller, but now it's gotten rather large, maybe muc-sub is worth a look again. It's been a while since I read it.
  830. jonasw I am pretty sure that if something which was much more trivial than MIX but fixes the issues of MUC was presented, it would gain massive adoption immediately.
  831. moparisthebest well there are developers that just write specs, then there are developers that write code
  832. Holger jonasw: Do you think it would be good to submit MUC/Sub? Wasn't MUC-Lite already rejected because we have MIX?
  833. jonasw Holger, I have no idea
  834. jonasw I also don’t know the history there
  835. SamWhited Oh, maybe I was thinking of MUC-Lite, I didn't realize these were two different things.
  836. moparisthebest also XSF has developer firmly entrenched in corporate proprietary servers that have odd use cases not suitable for everyone else
  837. moparisthebest which isn't a problem in itself
  838. moparisthebest but look at the XEPs around when MIX came in, a good number of them are virtually universally implemented at this point
  839. pep. edhelas, movim to PEP storage probably won't happen as long as access-model is not implemented/usable everywhere (from where I understand)
  840. moparisthebest that MIX has 0 implementations is telling
  841. edhelas pep. okay
  842. pep. I mean on servers
  843. Ge0rG SamWhited: I think we can sufficiently fix MUC with minor tweaks to the protocols and an optional "MUC bouncer" on the users' servers
  844. Maranda moparisthebest, I doubt it expecially when you have over half the server developers (me included) that do not intend implementing it in its current state, just saying.
  845. jonasw Ge0rG, how to fix the multi-session nick mess?
  846. SamWhited Ge0rG: I have a hard time beleiving that, but I'd love to see a plan outlined if you think it can be done.
  847. Ge0rG jonasw: it's not much of a mess
  848. jonasw PMs?
  849. Ge0rG jonasw: mainly a mess in some implementations
  850. jonasw Ge0rG, tell that to people trying to feature-discover through MSN.
  851. Ge0rG just because poezio doesn't get them right doesn't mean it can't be done with minimal effort
  852. Kev You *can* fix MUC, certainly, but it needs doing basically what MIX does, even if the way we currently describe MIX doesn't make it sound straightforward the core is.
  853. Ge0rG jonasw: feature discovery for messages is overrated
  854. pep. edhelas, I'm not talking for daniel, but that's what I gathered
  855. jonasw Ge0rG, we have many hacks and quirks in aioxmpp and jabbercat code which is solely due to the weirdness of MUCs handling of resources
  856. SamWhited It doesn't matter how straight forward the core is if no one else but a handful of people understand it. I'm not convince that statement is true, but if it is then someone who understands it needs to make it clear how simple it is.
  857. Maranda I think somehow I (partially) demessed that jonasw, Ge0rG at least appreciated the effort 😘
  858. jonasw Ge0rG, I like how MIX uses bare JIDs for identities and resources for sessions, unlike MUC. it simplifies a lot if we can just assume that.
  859. Guus has left
  860. ralphm jonasw: indeed
  861. Kev SamWhited: Yes, this is true, and yes, we need to make it clear.
  862. ralphm jonasw: but that's a hard break from how MUC works
  863. jonasw ralphm, exactly
  864. jonasw which I think that you cannot simply fix MUC.
  865. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm using bare JIDs everywhere in my client except for MUC-PMs and it was straight forward to implement
  866. jonasw Ge0rG, you don’t have avatars in MUC, do you?
  867. ralphm jonasw: that's why I think MUC is not fixable without breaking compatibility
  868. moparisthebest jonasw, no one said MIX didn't have good ideas, just that together it's not good
  869. jonasw moparisthebest, I’m aware.
  870. flow jonasw> Ge0rG, I like how MIX uses bare JIDs for identities and resources for sessions, unlike MUC. it simplifies a lot if we can just assume that.
  871. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't have avatars. But I heard daniel fixed them recently?
  872. flow +1
  873. moparisthebest again are there specific problems with https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/ other than 'well it's not MIX' ?
  874. flow moparisthebest, isn't no answer an answer?
  875. jonasw Ge0rG, "fixed"?
  876. jonasw moparisthebest, my specific problem with that is that it’s not a XEP
  877. moparisthebest jonasw, how is that a problem
  878. flow but actually, I think there are 1-2 minor problems with MUC-sub
  879. Ge0rG jonasw: I haven't been watching avatars closely, sorry. Maybe I'm underestimating part of the problem space
  880. moparisthebest it's running code, that is documented, and can easily be submitted as a xep jonasw
  881. jonasw moparisthebest, I like to discourage large-scale deployment of things which aren’t XEPs.
  882. flow but nothing that would prevent me from seeing MUC-Sub as XEP
  883. jonasw moparisthebest, do it then! ;-)
  884. SamWhited If there are only 1-2 minor problems, that's pretty good, I really do need to read that again.
  885. Dave Cridland Catching up, but: a) I didn't implement MIX, Ash Ward did (mostly), and we concentrated on the async messaging cases we needed. But it *is* in use. Various things in later revisions diverged from what we did, however.
  886. ralphm moparisthebest: I didn't know of this specification until 30 min. ago, how can I have evaluated it against MIX? Was it submitted as an alternative to the Council?
  887. jonasw Ge0rG, everywhere but in MUC you can (and have to) associate avatars with bare JIDs. in MUCs, you have to use the full JIDs.
  888. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, as I said. You use bare JIDs everywhere but in MUCs.
  889. jonasw moparisthebest, it still doesn’t solve the full-jids-as-identities-issue which is my biggest beef with MUC tbh
  890. Dave Cridland b) I argued against "MUC-light" because it was neither MUC, nor particularly light.
  891. moparisthebest ralphm, iirc back then council made it clear they would consider nothing but MIX, who would have wasted their time submitting it?
  892. jonasw Ge0rG, earlier you said "MUC-PMs" ;-)
  893. Ge0rG jonasw: so you have an API get_foo_for_jid() and you can pass it a bare JID or a full JID of a MUC participant.
  894. Dave Cridland c) Without seeing MUC-Sub, I don't know how it would differ materially from MIX.
  895. Ge0rG jonasw: I probably meant "MUC participants"
  896. jonasw Ge0rG, depends. with avatar pushes in presence, the stuff handling the caches needs to be aware whether a JID is from a MUC or not. and this is where things get ugly.
  897. moparisthebest I also just learned about muc-sub within the last few weeks from someone in here
  898. Dave Cridland jonasw, FWIW, MIX uses bare jids too. But then doesn't use them for messages, which I never liked.
  899. Ge0rG jonasw: must inject more <x/>
  900. moparisthebest it just strikes me as 'good enough'
  901. jonasw Ge0rG, the <x/> is in there, but that’s breaking layers.
  902. ralphm moparisthebest: that's fine, but you are asking about an alternative that (almost) nobody has seen and why that is not better than MIX. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an answer during this discussion.
  903. moparisthebest Dave Cridland, did you see the link https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
  904. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I think MIX only used full JIDs for messages in the context of PMs and resource locking?
  905. moparisthebest sure ralphm , just pointing out there are alternatives that supposedly have running code
  906. moparisthebest and a (not-yet-submitted) spec
  907. SamWhited Reviewing them, muc-light is the one I've seen before and I didn't like it for similar reasons to Dave (also, at the time MIX still seemed like a viable way forward so it felt worth focusing on that and encouraging others to participate in that effort). MUC-sub I'll have to read because I don't think I have read this one and was just mixing (pardon the pun) it up with MUC-light.
  908. ralphm moparisthebest: but you don't have first hand experience with this muc-sub then?
  909. moparisthebest other than hearing about it in passing in here, and reading it, no
  910. Maranda I'm not sure I entirely get the *real* necessity of offline message deliveries if there's MAM as well.
  911. ralphm Maranda: indeed, the whole point of putting MAM behind all the things is that you don't have that anymore
  912. ralphm So, what are the specific issues with MIX that people trying to implemented are facing. So far I've heard 1) the complexity of the specification (as a piece of text, not necessarily the actual protocol), 2) the fact that there've been (big) changes.
  913. ralphm Did MIX really change that much since Feb 2017?
  914. Ge0rG Only in minor details
  915. Steve Kille ralphm: No. There was a lot of editorial stuff, but nothing really changed
  916. ralphm Right, so it is not really a moving target then
  917. Maranda Well at least it's reliable, offline delivers somehow not so much imho but that's debatable I guess.
  918. edhelas when I'm reading MIX, I have the feeling that we'll have a Pubsub syndrom in it
  919. edhelas I mean
  920. edhelas 6.1.15 Telling another User about a Channel
  921. edhelas this whole piece can be a separate XEP
  922. Ge0rG edhelas: that's a rather small piece.
  923. edhelas yup, but still
  924. Maranda thinks he mentioned "running complexity"
  925. Ge0rG Maranda: can you point out specific cases of O(too much)?
  926. ralphm edhelas: huh? 6.1.15 is not using PubSub at all and points to a separate XEP?
  927. Ge0rG I think that using MAM both on the MIX and on the private account is a huge mess in the protocol
  928. Ge0rG "6.5.4 Converting a 1:1 Conversation to a Channel" is a huge security nightmare with questionable benefit
  929. Kev What's the mess protocol-wise?
  930. Kev (With 313)
  931. jjrh has left
  932. jonasw ralphm, (1) there’s on complete-ish server implementation I could test against (I’m a client developer. I also have limited time, otherwise I’d make one myself). (2) s2s failures (last time I checked) feld underappreciated in the spec, leading to possible desync between the MIX service and the users archive. skipping the archiving step at the users server would eliminate that risk and also simplify things. (3) The roster integration feels extremely weird. I’d prefer a different mechanism (specialized virtual PEP node for example).
  933. Ge0rG Kev: the fact that you have to query the data from different entities, depending on some (internal?) state
  934. ralphm Ge0rG: in terms of storage, for large rooms, having to MAM store room content 'user-side' seems pretty terrible.
  935. tim@boese-ban.de has left
  936. jonasw (ralphm, I think edhelas meant "PubSub syndrome" as in "one huge spec nobody can implement completely")
  937. Kev Ge0rG: That goes away with MIX and XMPP2, though.
  938. Kev For messages you just query your own.
  939. Ge0rG ralphm: so the solution is to store it in user's MAM as well as the MIX' MAM?
  940. moparisthebest no muc compatibility and requiring support on the user's server also seem to be non-starters
  941. edhelas jonasw exactly :)
  942. edhelas as a developper, is simpler to follow small specification, then you can mark that "done"
  943. edhelas so I implemented MIX-Core, now let's move to the MIX-Invitation XEP
  944. Kev Can't disagree with that, 369 as a spec is too long.
  945. ralphm Ge0rG: It seems perfectly normal to me to store one-to-one chats in the respective MAM archives of the two participants, and group chat history in a room-bound MAM archive, yes.
  946. manuel-rubio has left
  947. ralphm moparisthebest: there are ways to provide an XEP-0045 layer on top of a MIX backend, of course with limited functionality.
  948. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, except that's not how MIX is defined.
  949. Ge0rG ralphm: > MIX messages are archived by both the MIX channel and the user's server, so that clients can generally use their local MAM archiver.
  950. Ge0rG > All MIX messages received by the MIX participant's server for a participant MUST be stored using MAM in the participant's archive.
  951. Ge0rG And then we have the issue of the user-proxy and the MIX getting desynced due to s2s issues
  952. Ge0rG Which we know never happens in MUCs
  953. winfried has left
  954. ralphm Ge0rG: on MAM archives, I didn't remember those parts, and that's surely a choice that could be debated. I'm not sure why that choice was made. Maybe Steve Kille can comment on that
  955. Ge0rG Maranda: regarding runtime complexity: the user server is essentially an always-on proxy for all MIXes a user enters, for enternity. So if a user abandons their account, the server will still be receiving all their MIX traffic
  956. Guus has left
  957. ralphm what? why?
  958. Maranda Ge0rG, I might fail to get the point glancing the current XEP but if the problem of muc is basically broadcasts I don't entirely see where MIX is solving it, splitting it..? 🤨 Well.
  959. Ge0rG Maranda: sorry, what context are you in right now?
  960. Maranda The same running complexity
  961. Ge0rG Maranda: I think we agree that MIX is not less complex than MUC in that regard?
  962. Maranda is multi-tasking atm.
  963. Ge0rG I should be single-tasking my work now.
  964. Holger > <Maranda> I'm not sure I entirely get the *real* necessity of offline message deliveries if there's MAM as well. The most important reason in practce is push notifications. My impression was that MUC being presence-based was the main driving force to come up with a replacement.
  965. ralphm Ge0rG: I don't get the 'for eternity' part. You mean that if a user never logs into his account anymore, the server would still get the room's notifications? This also goes for regular pubsub, and I don't see how that's a failure of MIX per se. I'm sure that server implementation need some kind of resource management in such cases anyway.
  966. Kev That and the broken proxyJIDding.
  967. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, except that typical pubsub has different traffic patterns compared to a large chatroom
  968. jjrh has left
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  970. Ge0rG Holger: that problem can be solved by implementing a "MUC bouncer" on the user's server.
  971. ralphm Ge0rG: a mix bouncer is exactly what the PAM dependency in MIX does
  972. ralphm (unless that was your point, in which case never mind)
  973. Ge0rG ralphm: I know. But for MIX, you need to implement it on the client, on the server and on the MIX service. A "MUC bouncer" can be quietly implemented as part of the server without touching any protocol.
  974. ralphm Ge0rG: interesting, that would have the same impact on abandoned user accounts, though
  975. Ge0rG ralphm: indeed.
  976. Kev I think PAM becomes an optional dependency now, though, for MIX.
  977. ralphm a MUC bouncer is basically what IRC does, for MIX it is part of the package and considered a feature. Is your point that this MIX too complex?
  978. ralphm Kev: ah, can you expand on that?
  979. Kev And yes, we can make it transparent.
  980. Ge0rG ralphm: my point is that we don't need MIX as a solution to _that_ problem.
  981. Kev ralphm: If we change routing rules as $SUMMIT, we get bare-JID routing for MIXs, and we don't need the repeater in the user's server.
  982. Steve Kille ralphm: the MAM choice you referenced me on makes sense to me. Kev is probably the best person to explain
  983. ralphm Kev: but it would still require server's to implement /that/, so how transparent is that? On the whole, of course, I think it is a good idea.
  984. Kev Which 'that'?
  985. Kev The XMPP 2 routing rules? Yes, I think we need those, but we need those anyway.
  986. Ge0rG Kev: I'm pretty sure we'll run into interesting issues when attempting to route 'groupchat' messages to bare JIDs
  987. ralphm Kev: well, Ge0rG said that for doing MIX with PAM, you need the client, its server, and the MIX server to implement that. For the routing thing, you need both servers to be support that, no?
  988. jjrh has left
  989. ralphm Ge0rG: why? a server that doesn't support this responds with service-unavailable?
  990. ralphm (RFC 6121, section 8.5.2.1.1)
  991. Ge0rG ralphm: I can imagine this not to be the desired outcome for a MIX participant.
  992. daniel has left
  993. ralphm Ge0rG: so that's why Kev said that indeed the server of the MIX participant needs to support the new routing
  994. waqas has left
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  996. Ge0rG ralphm: "the new routing" never was about type=groupchat, so Kev must be meaning some newer-than-new routing that I know nothing about.
  997. Ge0rG So I'm not yet convinced that XMPP2 routing rules solve the MIX routing problem.
  998. alexis has left
  999. Kev Ge0rG: You might not have intended it to cover gc, but I do.
  1000. Zash Ge0rG: FWIW, what I already did was to write a thing that made the account join MUCs instead, while pretending to clients that nothing changed.
  1001. Ge0rG Kev: that's a noble goal. Do you have any documentation on the _how_?
  1002. alexis has joined
  1003. Ge0rG Zash: that's exactly what I was talking about. A MUC bouncer of sors
  1004. Ge0rG sorts
  1005. Zash Right
  1006. Ge0rG Zash: how does "the account join MUC" work specifically? Are you using a fake client resource for that?
  1007. efrit has left
  1008. Ge0rG Zash: did you encounter any unexpected things? Maybe we should promote that as a server feature?
  1009. Zash Ge0rG: I think I encountered weirdness but I don't remember exactly
  1010. Guus has left
  1011. Ge0rG Zash: I'm interested in repeating that experiment
  1012. Ge0rG And while we are speaking of experiments...
  1013. Ge0rG Maranda: do you happen to have new numbers on the GC1 usage?
  1014. Maranda Hm not really.
  1015. alexis has left
  1016. Ge0rG Maranda: what about a formal statement about the last numbers you gathered, e.g. on standards@? I'd like to use that as evidence that we can get rid of GC1 now.
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  1022. Maranda Ge0rG, if I had any last numbers gathered I would give out those, but beside the scarce muc usage on my server, looking at the clients using my server, I can sort of safely assume that as long as Pidgin doesn't still use it (I have no idea) there's no client using GC1.0
  1023. Ge0rG Ah, I wish I had a prosody module logging that.
  1024. vanitasvitae has left
  1025. Zash One that isn't mod_muc itself and that works with 0.10?
  1026. Ge0rG Zash: 0.10 mod_muc would be alright with me.
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  1033. jonasw Ge0rG, if the archives were solely at the MIX service, the users server wouldn’t need to receive or process them, right?
  1034. jonasw lolwat
  1035. jonasw wtf poezio
  1036. Ge0rG jonasw: yes
  1037. Ge0rG jonasw: except the server would need to tell the MIX when to start and stop sending "live" traffic
  1038. jonasw Ge0rG, BIND2 between server and MIX!
  1039. Maranda Ge0rG, just making a fast census, the majority looks to be running Pidgin, the Mac users look to be running Adium few are using iMessage/iChat, some others Trillian, Telepathy... oh one is running Bruno :P
  1040. marmistrz has joined
  1041. Maranda and most used mobile looks to be Xabber, Conversations on second.
  1042. Ge0rG Nobody is using yaxim 😢
  1043. jubalh has joined
  1044. Maranda Ge0rG, nope one is using Bruno though :P
  1045. Ge0rG Maranda: yeah, glad to hear that.
  1046. marmistrz has left
  1047. Maranda which isn't responding to an IQ btw 🤔
  1048. tux has left
  1049. Ge0rG Maranda: what kind of IQ?
  1050. Maranda version
  1051. Ge0rG Hm. Must be a very old version then. Or maybe the one with the bug where it dropped IQs because DoS
  1052. Ge0rG But still very old
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  1057. Dave Cridland So. Yes, I did see muc-sub ages ago, and it's basically a hybrid of MIX and MUC.
  1058. Dave Cridland And I do really hate wrapping messages in pubsub events and sending those as messages. Feels desperately inefficient.
  1059. jonasw if we’re substantially changing MUC, it’d be great to revamp how JIDs work in MUCs, and that’s essentially the proxy JID concept of MIX. which everyone seems to hate.
  1060. moparisthebest anyone know of a bot that integrates muc with jira ?
  1061. Ge0rG s/jira/git
  1062. jonasw Ge0rG, you know the answer ;-)
  1063. moparisthebest well, kinda jira for tickets and such
  1064. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, two bots. one to integrate git with pubsub and another one to integrate pubsub with muc
  1065. Zash dvcs over pubsub!
  1066. Maranda Ge0rG, be happy: [18:25:32] ‎Echo1‎: There was an error requesting ***@lightwitch.org/Bruno.554C7F0C's version: recipient-unavailable
  1067. Maranda just dead session :P
  1068. Ge0rG phew.
  1069. Ge0rG Zash: so what about GC1 logging in mod_muc?
  1070. Zash Ge0rG: I started on a module ... twice
  1071. Guus has left
  1072. jonasw Ge0rG, just hack it into muc.lib.lua. it’ll probably one line.
  1073. Holger jonasw: Is there any reasoning behind the proxy JID concept besides hiding the real JID?
  1074. Maranda Hmm eww
  1075. Maranda why? mod_muc hooks at -1 anyways
  1076. jonasw Holger, from which jid would one be receiving messages within the MIX otherwise?
  1077. jonasw (and possibly presence)
  1078. Maranda just make a 4 lines module and you're set
  1079. Maranda (or less)
  1080. Ge0rG Maranda: please make a 4 lines module
  1081. Ge0rG jonasw: it's one line, but the challenge is in knowing where to put that line
  1082. Zash oh, there is one
  1083. Ge0rG ,oO( https://colterreed.com/the-parable-of-the-two-dollar-chalk-mark/ )
  1084. Zash https://q.zash.se/94296e585f69.txt
  1085. Zash Ge0rG: ^
  1086. Maranda Ge0rG, hook to presence/bare?
  1087. Zash I guess you can s/module:/origin./
  1088. Valerian has left
  1089. Ge0rG Zash: can have print of the resource string, and version-iq the client?
  1090. Valerian has joined
  1091. Ge0rG module:log("info", "GC 1.0 join: {muc} {full-client-JID} {client version}") please :)
  1092. Holger jonasw: Dunno, maybe the MIX service JID. But why do you need any sort of JID mapping if not for anonymization?
  1093. Zash Ge0rG: You can do it, I believe in you
  1094. Ge0rG Zash: I don't know where to put the chalk mark.
  1095. Zash copy stuff from https://modules.prosody.im/mod_query_client_ver.html
  1096. daniel has left
  1097. Ge0rG 1. Copy random stuff from different modules 2. Deploy in production 3. ??? 4. Crashit
  1098. Holger jonasw: The XEP text also makes it very obvious that this is the point, no? Plus all the JID visibility foo?
  1099. Ge0rG Holger: I think the main reason for having proxy JIDs was indeed to make pseudonymous usage possible
  1100. Ge0rG But when viewed from a message routing point of view, we probably need proxy JIDs to associate incoming messages to a MIX in some way.
  1101. Ge0rG Or we need to wrap messages, like <message from=MIX><forwarded><message from=participant///>
  1102. Holger Well the service could obviously just include some tag with the real JID no?
  1103. Holger Like 0045 for non-anon rooms ...
  1104. Ge0rG Holger: what would be the from-JID?
  1105. Holger As I said my spontaneous response would be the groupchat service. But it's not like I thought about this. I just asked why we need a JID mapping.
  1106. Ge0rG Right
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  1114. edhelas 5) Adopt Proposal "Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious)"
  1115. edhelas it's planning to stay titled like that :D ?
  1116. Zash I think we should put Dave in charge of naming all the things
  1117. Ge0rG Zash: that position deserves a better name
  1118. moparisthebest Ge0rG, clearly Dave should name the position
  1119. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I think that naming your own position is a Segregation of Duties violation
  1120. Valerian has left
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  1123. Zash Ge0rG: https://q.zash.se/9b36a85d05a9.txt (also some fixes highlighted by static checks)
  1124. Zash Not actually tested
  1125. Zash No warranty etc
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  1129. edhelas regarding Bookmark 2 do you think it's fine to put muc JID in the nodeid of the Pubsub item ?
  1130. edhelas that is linked with the discussion we had about the format and limitation of those ids
  1131. Ge0rG Zash: awww... I kind of hoped to have the version reply inline. Will loading this on my MUC component allow me to grep version responses for the MUC JID in some way?
  1132. Zash Ge0rG: Prosody doesn't have any internal IQ tracking framework, so it gets a bit messier to do like that than what I'm willing to do while being this tired.
  1133. Ge0rG Zash: alright, thanks. That's good enough, as I don't have any other kind of version IQ inducer running
  1134. Zash Could encode stuff into the resource.. but uh
  1135. jubalh has left
  1136. Ge0rG Zash: nah, better not to.
  1137. Ge0rG Zash: it's great as it is now.
  1138. Ge0rG Zash: will it always log with <modulename> in the log line?
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  1141. Zash Ge0rG: All module:log() lines do, yes
  1142. Ge0rG Zash: yay. Now all I need to do is to provoke a log manually.
  1143. Ge0rG /rawxml <presence to="yaxim@chat.yax.im/Ge0rG" />
  1144. Ge0rG nothing happens.
  1145. Ge0rG Do I need to load it on the main domain instead of the MUC?
  1146. Zash Supposed to be on the MUC
  1147. jubalh has joined
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  1149. Zash Oh
  1150. jubalh has left
  1151. Zash s|preserce/bare|preserce/full|
  1152. Ge0rG heh, I wondered about that too
  1153. Ge0rG Hm. Still nothing
  1154. Zash Are you joined there already?
  1155. Ge0rG Yes.
  1156. Zash So it'll go to "normal presence update"
  1157. Ge0rG Ah, ok.
  1158. Ge0rG Mar 20 19:08:02 chat.yax.im:gc_log info GC 1.0 join from georg@yax.im/poezio
  1159. Ge0rG Yay.
  1160. Ge0rG Zash: thanks very much. I'll collect datas now.
  1161. Ge0rG But no version followup there.
  1162. Maranda awww...
  1163. Maranda well
  1164. Maranda https://muc.metronome.im:5280/pastebin/32c7b657-90e2-4411-9c9c-5903dfe07a00
  1165. Maranda got beaten to it, but you'd need to change it slightly anyways
  1166. Maranda :P
  1167. jonasw Ge0rG, Zash, it would be useful to know if the client was joined before and got removed with an error presence.
  1168. Ge0rG was joined before using MUC protocol.
  1169. Ge0rG Tracking hell
  1170. Ge0rG I'm out for today. Let's hope it won't crash yax.im overnight
  1171. Ge0rG Thanks everyone
  1172. Maranda and woops typo but it looks to be working, https://muc.metronome.im:5280/pastebin/d84f1589-1920-4e48-8f47-b09e6fbe0ec4
  1173. daniel has left
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  1176. Maranda and woops typo but it looks to be working, https://muc.metronome.im:5280/pastebin/918d0c29-6e42-4c32-8c72-18fd75b860c7
  1177. Ge0rG Was that last message correction without last message correction?
  1178. Maranda has left
  1179. Maranda Ge0rG, apparently... I corrected using Gajim, but Gajim didn't use Message correction?
  1180. Maranda test
  1181. Maranda toast
  1182. Maranda Ge0rG, no clue what I did there
  1183. Ge0rG Maranda: this time it worked. Did you rejoin in between?
  1184. jubalh has joined
  1185. lovetox i fixed a muc correction bug yesterday
  1186. lovetox so .. this can happen from time to time
  1187. Maranda Ge0rG, hmm no I don't think I did.
  1188. Maranda lovetox, hmm 1.0?
  1189. Maranda that's what I'm using
  1190. lovetox yes it has that bug
  1191. lovetox basically you have to be really fast with correction
  1192. lovetox if any message in any other muc arrives it wont work anymore ^^
  1193. Ge0rG Is this the week of major client releases? Gajim 1, Conversations 2, ???, Swift 4
  1194. moparisthebest so the same as the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 bug ?
  1195. moparisthebest except way less deadly
  1196. Ge0rG lovetox: tell me about race conditions
  1197. Maranda lovetox, oh, well I'm a turtle *known "bug"* :P
  1198. Maranda saves speed for olympic lifts ™
  1199. Maranda hehe brb.
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  1225. daniel Ge0rG: does your plan to improve muc also involve a rule that servers should force all connected clients to have the same nick?
  1226. daniel Ie either first joined client gets force renamed to the nick the second client uses or vice versa
  1227. daniel (somewhat re to what you wrote about bookmarks 2)
  1228. daniel Inb4 but muh pidgin can't handle forced renames
  1229. Ge0rG daniel: I don't see how pidgin is in a position to block progress of XMPP
  1230. Ge0rG daniel: but to answer your question: no, I don't think we need to *force* all clients to the same nickname. But it would make sense to keep that the default
  1231. daniel Tell that to the clients not implemting omemo. Lol
  1232. Ge0rG daniel: because I'm sure joining the same MUC with two different nicknames at the same time is a use case needed by less than 0.1% of XMPP users
  1233. Ge0rG daniel: as opposed to you, I don't see OMEMO as an integral part of the XMPP future
  1234. daniel Ge0rG: well it wouldn't be the first time backward compat is raised as an argument not to do something
  1235. Ge0rG daniel: with the two of us on Council, we can get rid of GC1, and then of pidgin
  1236. daniel Wait council can get rid of pidgin?
  1237. daniel Why haven't we done this before?
  1238. Ge0rG daniel: I'll propose it as AOB tomorrow
  1239. SamWhited I didn't know we had unilateral power over client devs, we should have been using this for blackmail ages ago.
  1240. Guus has left
  1241. Ge0rG SamWhited: I was told we can vote on everything.
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  1243. jonasw Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
  1244. daniel Ge0rG: well an opt out / opt in to server please rename me to what ever you think is right might be a way not to break pidgin
  1245. daniel Aehm at least the opt in part
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  1252. Ge0rG daniel: i think we are having a misunderstanding. I'm speaking of the clients synchronizing the nickname to use, not about server side enforcing.
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  1260. Maranda Apparently killing Pidgin means killing a large portion of XMPP if my server numbers are any exportable 😆
  1261. Maranda Art thou up for such perillous, murderous task?
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  1268. Zash What about crowdfunded maintenance?
  1269. daniel Ge0rG: I'll summarize that as no such plans then
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  1305. moparisthebest this is a good argument for omemo/xmpp https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/17142482/russia-orders-telegram-hand-over-user-encryption-keys
  1306. Andrew Nenakhov I can attest that 95% or more of OTR users in Russia are junkies.
  1307. Andrew Nenakhov Also, Telegram is putting a show for masses, there is substantial evidence that it is already controlled by FSB
  1308. moparisthebest wait how do you know they are junkies?
  1309. Zash has left
  1310. Andrew Nenakhov I have access to Xabber support mailbox
  1311. moparisthebest oh, fair :)
  1312. moparisthebest that just means 95% of OTR users that ask for support are junkies though right?
  1313. moparisthebest maybe it works great for non-junkies hehe :)
  1314. Andrew Nenakhov Our app is defacto standard in their circles, they even write on websites 'sales support in Xabber'
  1315. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, I think 95% of e2ee users are criminals (junkies and drug/arms/etc sellers), and 5% crypto nerds )
  1316. Andrew Nenakhov Cryptonerds never ask for tech support though
  1317. Andrew Nenakhov They figure it out themselves and know why they use xmpp. But junkies... "i entered my Gmail address into Xmpp id field and it doesn't connect!".
  1318. pep. Well you have to start somewhere right, first users that see value in the market, and then conquer the world
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  1320. moparisthebest well also OTR is terrible for usability, OMEMO fixes most of that
  1321. moparisthebest my mom uses OMEMO messaging me without problems, she would have just used the default though if I didn't set it up for her
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  1323. Andrew Nenakhov I personally don't see any value in encryption, especially when running my own server. The only one e2ee is protecting from is server operator, and if that's mine... Why bother? Also it makes seamless syncing more difficult across devices and requires transmitting WAY more data
  1324. Maranda and then are you certain it really is...?
  1325. Maranda :P
  1326. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov: servers never get hacked or misconfigured?
  1327. moparisthebest I run my own too and haven't made those mistakes yet, but I'm not perfect
  1328. Kev has left
  1329. Andrew Nenakhov Hacking a diligently configured server is not an easy thing to do. And it is not really linked to Telegram situation. Russian government wants direct access to user chat history that it can use without warrant or court decision
  1330. Andrew Nenakhov In other news. In unexpected turn of events, making an XMPP client for iOS that works well we'll have to implement VoIP 😁
  1331. Andrew Nenakhov *to make an , typo
  1332. Holger Andrew Nenakhov: Yeah. The alternative is sending the body via APNS or generating ugly "New Message!" notifications.
  1333. Andrew Nenakhov Ugly. Btw telegram sends all msg body in Alert-type msg, perfectly open, over APNS
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  1335. Holger Ah I was wondering how the commercial things do it.
  1336. Andrew Nenakhov Currently we use non-voip push notifications of 'content-available' type, and it even kinda works...
  1337. Holger But those are unreliable, right?
  1338. Holger I.e. heavily rate-limited by Apple.
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  1341. Andrew Nenakhov Yes, but it looks to be tricky. Our developer sees almost perfect work on his test devices, but when we roll out build on test devices to managers, etc in company, it works much worse. As if iOS gives more priority to often used apps
  1342. Andrew Nenakhov *this theory is not yet confirmed
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  1344. Andrew Nenakhov Also, when you read articles titled 'force-closing apps does not make your iPhone last longer, stop doing that', know it's a lie.
  1345. Holger Yes it's my impression as well that the behavior is very different for different users. I didn't come up with a theory yet though, seemed totally non-deterministic to me.
  1346. Andrew Nenakhov Content-available type notifications ARE NOT delivered to force-closed apps (swiped away ) at all
  1347. Holger Right.
  1348. Andrew Nenakhov And not delivered after device restart until first launch, too.
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  1350. Andrew Nenakhov VoIP pushes, on the contrary, work very reliable.
  1351. Andrew Nenakhov Force-close, restart - it works all the time.
  1352. Holger Yup ...
  1353. Maranda of course I vaguely recall VoIP apps getting treated differently even for what regards background running sockets.
  1354. Maranda (and that was ages ago)
  1355. Holger Maranda: Yes, that's going away though.
  1356. Holger Maranda: VoIP apps are supposed to rely on push notifications now.
  1357. Andrew Nenakhov APNS rules changed a while ago. In 2014 you could have a decent background updates without VoIP.
  1358. Andrew Nenakhov We did an xmpp-based app for some guys back then, pushes worked well without additional hassle.
  1359. Maranda I swear I can't express how much mobile OSes that do these stupid things with app tombstoning and background connections limit impositions annoy me.
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  1361. Maranda (and neither I get how can people spend 1400 eurs for a device that doesn't let you do what you want to with *your friggin battery*)
  1362. Andrew Nenakhov Maranda, it'll get worse. I think Google will be locking developers into their ecosystem even more, displacing natural device capabilities with proprietary centralized FCM APIs.
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  1364. Maranda *le sigh*
  1365. Andrew Nenakhov Google's and Apple's tyranny will be much more harsh one of Microsoft.
  1366. Andrew Nenakhov I know a guy who makes a chat app based entirely on FCM. Just pushes and Google's cloud storage. Supaeasy
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  1368. fippo somehow this reminds me of the scene from lord of the rings where frodo offers the ring to galadriel...
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