XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-03-26


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  230. Ge0rG When is it legal to send a message _from_ a bare JID?
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  233. jonasw Ge0rG, as a client, you can’t
  234. jonasw a server will do that when the message is "from the account", like MAM responses or PEP I think
  235. Ge0rG I'm receiving spam from a bare JID.
  236. jonasw what
  237. jonasw goofy server I’d say
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  239. Ge0rG -version bnw.im
  240. Bunneh Ge0rG: bnw.im is running BnW version 0.1 on OS/360
  241. jonasw RFC 6120 is rather clear on that: 1. When a server receives an XML stanza from a connected client, the server MUST add a 'from' attribute to the stanza or override the 'from' attribute specified by the client, where the value of the 'from' attribute MUST be the full JID (<localpart@domainpart/resource>) determined by the server for the connected resource that generated the stanza (see Section 4.3.6), or the bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>) in the case of subscription-related presence stanzas (see [XMPP-IM]).
  242. Maranda Spam Server!
  243. jonasw I can’t into cyrillic
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  245. jonasw seems to be some type of social network thing
  246. Maranda All the spam is into cyrillic.
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  249. Maranda Looks like 4chan
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  273. Ge0rG -ping jabber.org
  274. Ge0rG -ping conference.jabber.org
  275. Kev The host seems to not be reachable.
  276. jonasw yeah
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  279. Ge0rG This is an example of why it's good to have our MUCs spread over multiple servers. We can still talk about downtime
  280. jonasw DMUC!
  281. jonasw or FMUC?
  282. jonasw did anyone think about how to integrate federation in an extension to MIX?
  283. Ge0rG BOMFUNK!
  284. jonasw or maybe just cluster MIX services
  285. jonasw Ge0rG, Boomfunk MCs?
  286. Steve Kille I've been thinking about FMIX, but I think we need to get "vanilla MIX" sorted first
  287. jonasw Steve Kille, agreed
  288. Kev J.org was going to be clustered, but we just never got around to it.
  289. jonasw Ge0rG, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNFyxvIdaM
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  291. Ge0rG jonasw: one of my favorite pieces of 1990ies music.
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  293. jonasw Ge0rG, :-)
  294. jonasw oh, too many os
  295. jonasw gotta fix that in my music library
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  300. Bunneh Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed
  301. Bunneh Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed
  302. Ge0rG Wow, Bunneh has some serious timeout issues
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  305. jonasw Ge0rG, it’s just diligent
  306. jonasw Ge0rG, just in case you host your server on your mobile phone.
  307. Ge0rG I was shocked to hear that conversations.im has a 60 seconds 0198 ack timeout
  308. jonasw that’s long or that’s short?
  309. intosi Those with IPv6 should be able to see c.j.o and j.o
  310. intosi Only the IPv4 connectivity seems to be dead.
  311. Ge0rG I'm dualstacked. In theory.
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  315. jonasw hm,w eird
  316. jonasw I’m dualstacked in practice, but it doesn’t work
  317. jonasw into the debug logs!
  318. Ge0rG my prosody was keeping an s2s connection and failed to send data that way.
  319. Ge0rG after killing it, it retried ipv4, now ipv6.
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  321. intosi My prosody was, as well.
  322. jonasw I blame the SRV records
  323. jonasw _xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 30 30 5269 hermes2.jabber.org. _xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 31 30 5269 hermes2v6.jabber.org.
  324. jonasw why separate records for v6 and v4, and why prefer v4?
  325. jonasw hm, my prosody does not try the next one after the first times out
  326. jonasw might be my old 0.9.x version though
  327. intosi There used to be too many clients with ipv6 issues in the past.
  328. jonasw intosi, servers, too?
  329. intosi IPv6 in general was an unhappier place five years ago, when these records were set up.
  330. jonasw maybe a change is due
  331. jonasw haven’t had issues (I know about) with dual-stacked records
  332. intosi Quite likely.
  333. jonasw this would be a good time for change ;-)
  334. intosi There used to be a lot of Teredo links, a lot of them barely functioning.
  335. jonasw that makes it a bit more funny that the v4 route aborts at an HE router…
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  337. jonasw also, turns out, grepping for jabber.org in debug logs isn’t htat useful. "[…]xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'[…]" and the likes
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  339. Ge0rG Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sending: <db:result to='conference.jabber.org' from='yax.im'> Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sent dialback key on outgoing s2s stream And then nothing happens.
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  343. Ge0rG So it looks like dialback is never completed, then timeouts
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  346. Andrew Nenakhov jonasw, I can into Cyrillic but this one is not meant to be easily understood by normal people
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  349. Ge0rG intosi, Kev: are you interested in further debugging why s2s over ipv6 still fails?
  350. intosi Ge0rG: thanks for the offer, but I can fully reproduce the issue myself at the moment.
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  354. intosi It appears that hermes2, the host running jabber.org, has its IPv4 traffic blocked at its gateway.
  355. intosi Not blocked, but blackholed.
  356. Ge0rG Your ISP switched you to DS-Lite, silently :P
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  358. intosi That might be the result of excess ingress or egress connections earlier, I haven't checked yet.
  359. Tobias Ge0rG, it's hard to get large packets as IPv6 through the big walls of a bunker
  360. intosi The IPv6 packets are actually getting through ;)
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  362. intosi It's the tiny IPv4 packets that are filtered out :D
  363. Ge0rG Tobias: I didn't know j.o is running on Bulletproof Hosting.
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  365. Ge0rG maybe they are too small to swim alone, and j.o is hosted on Sealand instead?
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  389. jonasw Ge0rG, winfried: +10min for me
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  400. pep. !
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  405. Williams W ?
  406. Williams W hello
  407. MattJ Hello
  408. pep. Hello
  409. Williams W china ?
  410. Williams W im china~
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  415. Williams W `
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  420. winfried Hi,
  421. winfried sorry for being a bit late, had to fetch my luunch ;-)
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  423. pep. winfried, !
  424. Ge0rG I haven't had lunch yet.
  425. pep. jonasw said +10mn apparently
  426. pep. It's still 11am for me :-°
  427. winfried pep.: I know
  428. winfried (about jonasw )
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  431. winfried Shall we start and check with jonasw when he joins us?
  432. Seve/SouL Some meeting going on now?
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  435. winfried Seve/SouL: GDPR & XSF meeting
  436. pep. I guess we can wait a bit, it's already 9
  437. winfried also good ;-)
  438. pep. I guess we can wait a bit, it's already :09
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  442. jonasw I'm close
  443. jonasw here I am
  444. pep. !
  445. winfried welcome, should someone bang a gafel?
  446. pep. Sure
  447. pep. Ge0rG, jonasw, winfried, pep.!
  448. pep. *bang*
  449. jonasw so, I‘ve got a few things
  450. winfried ;-)
  451. winfried I think there are three questions at hand: Q1) What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network and Jabber server operators and what can/should do the XSF with that? Q2) What consequences does the GDPR has for the XSF run Jabber server? Q3) What consequences does the GDPR has for the work processes of the XSF itself (membership, voting, wiki etc)?
  452. jonasw if it’s okay, I‘ll just dump a few notes I took during a talk about GDPR for self-hosters at the chemnitzer linux tage
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  454. winfried jonasw: go ahead!
  455. jonasw it’s mostly a random collection of stuff which I felt was important
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  457. jonasw first some key articles about the rights of the subjects of the data: art. 13, 14, plus possibly 7, 15, 12, 16, 17, 21 and 20
  458. Ge0rG Yes please. I also had a talk with out GDPR expert regarding self-hosting, so we should be able to align those
  459. jonasw there are rights for transfer of data between providers, in article 20
  460. jonasw some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof
  461. jonasw and the articles about notifying about data breaches, 33 and 34
  462. jonasw and something about a directory of data stored, processed and shared supposedly detailed in article 30
  463. jonasw as I mentioned, those are really just quick notes I took, I haven’t had the chance to look deeply into this. Those are the articles I plan to have a deeper look, and which might be most relevant. but IANAL
  464. jonasw for the german folks: the speaker said that most of the GDPR has been german law for ages already, so germans have even less of an excuse ;-)
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  467. jonasw end-of-dump
  468. Ge0rG winfried: do you want to chair this? Maybe we should split the three questions from Q1 into individual ones, and also put https://trello.com/c/t79C3Yds/307-gdpr-advice on the agenda
  469. jonasw we might also want to look very closely at the legal definitions of Controller and Processor and Join Controller etc.
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  471. winfried Ge0rG: if jonasw and pep. don't mind me chairing, yes
  472. jonasw as well as the intent, which isn’t defined clearly
  473. pep. winfried, sure
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  475. jonasw the speaker mentioned that the intent as well as the separation of controller and processor or something can make a huge difference. he for example assumed that their company wasn’t affected much because while they have their users data (as a hoster), they do not directly work with that (so no intent of usage) and thus they’re not affected
  476. jonasw he was from hostsharing.net fwiw (german)
  477. Ge0rG set the topic to XSF GDPR Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  478. winfried I propose to take step beck: there is the legal discussion about things like jurisdiction, processor/controller, legal ground for processing, risk of data, transfer etc
  479. winfried but there is also a question about cooperation with the IETF for example on this
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  481. Ge0rG winfried: the IETF is facing the same problems we are?
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  483. winfried Ge0rG: possibly, the IETF was mentioned in the mail to the board
  484. jonasw (because someone mentioned it here, actually.)
  485. Ge0rG winfried: do we know who at the IETF is working on it?
  486. winfried I have no idea
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  488. Ge0rG (how) should we collaborate with them?
  489. Ge0rG Somebody needs to find out and contact them then
  490. winfried who takes notes? I see a to-do here ;-)
  491. Ge0rG we need a minute taker!
  492. winfried :-P
  493. pep. Can do, that'll force me to understand what's been said
  494. Ge0rG Sorry, I'm 120% busy with work, so this is borrowed time already.
  495. jonasw this seems to touch on Q3 and I’d like to challenge the premise of that
  496. Ge0rG pep.: :+1:
  497. winfried jonasw: this may touch Q1 too
  498. winfried jonasw: can you elaborate your challenge?
  499. jonasw to my knowledge, the XSF does not handle non-public data
  500. jonasw voting may be the only exception
  501. jonasw the MUCs are public, the wiki is public
  502. jonasw the only non-public data aside from voting *may* be the email adresses used for wiki accounts; which aren’t sensitive according to article 9 (1), so much less relevant.
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  506. winfried jonasw: and the e-mail adresses are inherent to the service provided. Still we can question if the GDPR is applicable to the XSF at all
  507. jonasw (one could construe that voting data are "political opinions" though)
  508. jonasw winfried, that’s another matter, indeed
  509. jonasw but even if it does apply, I don’t think it matters
  510. Ge0rG email addresses are not sensitive, but they are personal data. So we _are_ storing personal data.
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  512. winfried But to apply to become a member, I have to state my real name on a public wiki and I have to include my employer (and contact data). Are there any rules about how long that should be stored / stay public?
  513. pep. jonasw, does everything on the member application fall under 9.1?
  514. pep. fullname, email, employer, etc.
  515. pep. Though these pages are public indeed
  516. jonasw pep., the member application (like everything else on the wiki) is covered by article 9 (2) e) I think
  517. jonasw > processing relates to personal data which are manifestly made public by the data subject;
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  519. pep. hmm, is it really email we ask for on the membership or JID?
  520. Ge0rG Wiki accounts can be created by non-members, so their email address is not published by themselves.
  521. jonasw pep., email is needed for a wiki account
  522. Ge0rG pep.: both
  523. winfried jonasw: yes, I think it is 9.2, but is that the right discussion to have right here right now?
  524. Ge0rG winfried: you are the chair!
  525. jonasw winfried, dunno, I answered pep.s question :)
  526. pep. Sorry, just for the notes
  527. winfried :-)
  528. winfried Ok, then I make a procudural proposal:
  529. winfried I popsted 3 issues
  530. winfried I think we should take each of them and inventise how big the potential problem is and what research we still need to do
  531. Ge0rG winfried: yes. also please split up Q1.
  532. jonasw winfried, okay
  533. jonasw make a headline and we’re good to go :)
  534. winfried and then try to make a (preliminary) assesment of a good strategy
  535. pep. Agreed, we should split Q1
  536. winfried *** Q1 ***
  537. winfried proposals to split?
  538. Ge0rG winfried: Q1.1 What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network Q1.2 ... and Jabber server operators Q1.3 ... and what can/should do the XSF with that?
  539. pep. Also Q2 goes into Q1.2 doesn't it?
  540. Ge0rG pep.: Q2 depends on Q1.2
  541. winfried yes
  542. pep. k
  543. winfried *** Q1.1 ***
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  545. jonasw Q1.1 raises the question of how consent works in a federated network.
  546. jonasw we have no idea.
  547. Ge0rG jonasw: wait, what? elaborate that please
  548. winfried I think it is good to follow the line: a is it in the GDPR jurisdiction, what data is
  549. jonasw Ge0rG, I send you a message. you have MAM which stores forever. I never consented to your servers MAM storage.
  550. pep. I think he's referring to the questions he raised for the previous board
  551. winfried b what data is processed
  552. winfried c what processing is done
  553. winfried (forgetting about responsible party/processer)
  554. winfried d what ground does the processing have
  555. winfried e possible consequences
  556. ludo has left
  557. Ge0rG winfried: (a) processing data of users in the EU requires GDPR compliance. Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are.
  558. jonasw winfried, what is "it" in your (a)?
  559. Ge0rG winfried: so basically all servers that are not geo-locked to exclude the EU fall under GDPR
  560. winfried jonasw: good question in a federated network
  561. winfried I think we should regard each server as its own legal entity, and the federation as a kind of processing (exchanging data)
  562. Ge0rG I think it makes sense to define the roles as well. An XMPP server operator is a "controller", and whoever does the hosting and other services for them is a "processor"
  563. marc has left
  564. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  565. Ge0rG winfried: we have strong parallels to email. I agree with your conclusion regarding server = legal entity
  566. pep. Hmm, that doesn't fit with what you said winfried
  567. winfried pep.: ?
  568. pep. You said "exchanging data", would that fit into "transfering data", and not "processing" per se
  569. MattJ has left
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  571. Ge0rG I suggest we first focus on a single server before widening up to federation
  572. pep. k
  573. pep. The c2s-only case is a lot more straightforward
  574. winfried pep.: (breaking my head, is transfering / exchangeing legally seen also a kind of processing, let that discussion dangle for a moment)
  575. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  576. Dave Cridland has left
  577. winfried Ge0rG: on your: "Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are. " - I think we can safely say yes in that one
  578. winfried though not cast in iron, the first opinions point in that direction
  579. jonasw Ge0rG, winfried, alternatively, in the case of MAM, we could argue that the User is the Controller and the server doing the storage is the Processor.
  580. Ge0rG winfried: I've heard different opinions on that, we should say "probably yes"
  581. mrdoctorwho has left
  582. Ge0rG jonasw: no!
  583. mrdoctorwho has joined
  584. jonasw Ge0rG, why?
  585. winfried we should also add a non-EU server targeting EU-citizens
  586. winfried jonasw: as far as I know the user can't be the controller, just the data subject...
  587. Ge0rG winfried: non-EU server targeting EU-citizens must also comply with GDPR
  588. winfried Ge0rG: yes
  589. Ge0rG so we've got (a) now, up to (b)?
  590. winfried yes, please ;-)
  591. winfried does a xmpp server (c2s) process personal data? I think that is a yes too:
  592. jonasw this is a strong YES
  593. winfried jid as identifyer
  594. jonasw it is even sensitive data according to article 9 (1), I’m pretty sure.
  595. winfried ip-adresses
  596. Ge0rG A server is storing a users' JID and login credentials, roster content (with names), bookmarks, offline/MAM history
  597. vanitasvitae has left
  598. jonasw http upload, too
  599. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't think it's sensitive.
  600. jonasw avatar and vcard are "meant to be public"?
  601. jonasw Ge0rG, depends on the message content, doesn’t it?
  602. jonasw you have to assume it is
  603. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm not sure this is how it works.
  604. jonasw why not?
  605. Dave Cridland has left
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  607. Dave Cridland has left
  608. winfried think it is good to distrinc here between the data that is structurally collected and data like the content that is forwarded/stored
  609. Ge0rG jonasw: I assume that art9 applies if you collect sensitive data from users, not if they give it to you without you asking
  610. jonasw Ge0rG, any source for that?
  611. moparisthebest has joined
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  613. winfried is anybody aware of an analyses of the status of communication services within the GDPR?
  614. pep. Ge0rG, I'd say any <message> almost, rather than MAM? or "history" in general (nit)
  615. jonasw googles
  616. jonasw > How Cloud Communications Can Help You Comply With GDPR
  617. jonasw oh my god
  618. Ge0rG jonasw: I would argue as follows: the user uploads the data because they want you to forward it to the receipient, so there is a art6 §1 d or f legitimate interest
  619. moparisthebest has joined
  620. winfried I think we can use the pictures analogy here: you can find out if people have certain diseases from a picture, but pictures aren't sensitive data until you analyse them
  621. jonasw Ge0rG, I thought that Article 9 (1) overrides that.
  622. Ge0rG jonasw: you can't google that. don't even try "email gdpr"
  623. jonasw mind that article 9 (1) is not (only) a definition, but a "shall be prohibited" and only (2) defines exceptions for that.
  624. pep. Ge0rG, though jingle-ft could be used for that, most of the time
  625. winfried storing and forwarding a (very) personal chat may keep us out of 9.1 as long it isn't analysed / indexed on words as 'sex'...
  626. pep. The legitimacy of server-side component lies for offline delivery, and groupchats(?)
  627. Ge0rG (a) the data subject has given explicit consent to the processing of those personal data
  628. jonasw winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the reasoning though
  629. MattJ has left
  630. jonasw winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the recitals though
  631. jonasw so maybe that analogy doesn’t work
  632. jonasw > The processing of photographs should not systematically be considered to be processing of special categories of personal data as they are covered by the definition of biometric data only when processed through a specific technical means allowing the unique identification or authentication of a natural person.
  633. winfried jonasw: true
  634. Ge0rG That's actually a good analogy.
  635. jonasw Ge0rG, regarding Art. 9 (2) a): exactly, which is why I said we need a way to make users express consent for that.
  636. jonasw and server operators need a way to be sure of that to an extent where they can blame others if the recorded statement is false
  637. Ge0rG So we have the meta-data actually requested by the XMPP server: JID, name(?), email(?), IP address(es)(?)
  638. alexis has left
  639. Ge0rG this meta-data is not sensitive.
  640. jonasw note that "storing" is a subset of processing.
  641. Ge0rG and we have the actual data that's sent by the user, which is stored / processed. As long as we don't do racial profiling on that, it's not sensitive either.
  642. pep. jonasw, true
  643. jonasw I’m not convinced
  644. j.r has joined
  645. jonasw Ge0rG, I think it must still be declared and the user must still consent for storage at least, because of the risk of data breaches.
  646. Ge0rG jonasw: wait, are you still talking of art9?
  647. jonasw I think so
  648. Zash Analyzing for SPAM, does that matter?
  649. Ge0rG jonasw: I agree regarding the general requirements of the GDPR, but not art9
  650. winfried Zash: yes
  651. efrit has joined
  652. Ge0rG Zash: not for art9, I'd say. Unless your SPAM detector is a Jew detector in practice.
  653. jonasw Ge0rG, it might be a sexual content detector in practice.
  654. jonasw for email at least.
  655. pep. or a cyrillic detector
  656. pep. :-°
  657. Ge0rG jonasw: I think the only viable reason to run a sexual content detector is to block the latter, in which case GDPR does not apply?
  658. winfried Ge0rG: not 'in practice' but explictely
  659. winfried I have a feeling that as long as we don't analyse data (content AND metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1, 9.1 is not appliccable
  660. jonasw winfried, I like that idea. I’m not sure on that though. It would be good to get legal advice on this.
  661. jonasw this might be focused enough to actually get an answer to.
  662. jonasw but what do I know.
  663. winfried pep.: I see a to-do ;-)
  664. pep. yep
  665. pep. so any kind of mod_firewall trickery will probably get us off that safe land?
  666. pep. What's meant by "analyse" here exactly
  667. pep. Also, "from art 9.1, 9.2", right?
  668. jonasw analyze to an extent where you could say "this person would elect Democrats in the next election"
  669. jonasw (or similar statements about the other sensitive attributes mentioned in 9.1)
  670. winfried or 'this person has sex once a month'
  671. pep. k
  672. Zash Not the things needed for routing, right
  673. winfried Zash: exactly
  674. pep. Zash, depends? Maybe you'll route differently if they have sex more often
  675. pep. Anyway, going on?
  676. winfried yes
  677. pep. That's b and c "sorted"?
  678. pep. For the C2S case
  679. pep. Maybe c not entirely "what processing is done", we could maybe list a few common cases
  680. winfried I think we can safely say a XMPP server operator is a controller (not the hoster)
  681. jonasw I think what we *at the very minimum* learn from this given the technical means in the Jabber network is: you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation.
  682. pep. winfried, agreed on that
  683. Dave Cridland has joined
  684. winfried jonasw: agree
  685. marmistrz has left
  686. marmistrz has joined
  687. pep. jonasw, why especially federation
  688. jonasw pep., because federated users cannot consent
  689. jonasw you could get consent from your local users
  690. pep. I see
  691. winfried do we have a clear idea of the data collected and processed in a xmpp server?
  692. jonasw and operators might fall for "I got consent from my users, so I’m fine with processing their messages" but that’s in fact false because you’d need consent from the senders too
  693. jonasw winfried, I think Ge0rG gave a list earlier
  694. pep. I have listed: - JID - login credentials - roster content (with names) - bookmarks - "history" (offline/MAM)
  695. jonasw roster, timestamp of last available presence, mam, offline messages, http upload, in-flight messages
  696. MattJ has left
  697. jonasw ah
  698. pep. Ah right presence
  699. jonasw pep., add "timestamp of last available presence"
  700. jonasw and in general presence is saved transiently to anwser probes
  701. Alex has left
  702. winfried logfiles with connection data
  703. pep. winfried, as in? IP? (re private data)
  704. jonasw http upload, too
  705. jonasw pep., timestamps and IP, yes
  706. pep. jonasw, or any kind of server-side component storage files?
  707. pep. storing*
  708. jonasw pep., yeah
  709. jonasw MUC history, too
  710. winfried also PEP data
  711. pep. MUC history, only applying to private MUCs?
  712. jonasw PEP is by default public
  713. Ge0rG would it make sense to put all that under "user content"?
  714. jonasw probably
  715. alexis has joined
  716. winfried except for the logfiles
  717. jonasw login credentials are hardly user content, too
  718. Valerian has joined
  719. Ge0rG what about the roster?
  720. lumi has joined
  721. winfried jonasw: agreed, they may have a different legal status
  722. vanitasvitae has joined
  723. Ge0rG I think that roster / bookmarks are special, but (actual) PEP, MAM, offline, HTTP-Upload is all user content
  724. jonasw why are roster and bookmarks special?
  725. Ge0rG jonasw: PII, passwords
  726. jonasw are bookmarks PII?
  727. Ge0rG "Georg's private Sex Toys Chat"
  728. jonasw ah, I forgot about that one ;-)
  729. jonasw but isn’t that like message content?
  730. Ge0rG jonasw: not sure.
  731. winfried jonasw: I think so
  732. jonasw Ge0rG, why would it be different from message content?
  733. Ge0rG so we have: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - server logs
  734. julius has joined
  735. winfried +1
  736. jonasw Ge0rG, timestamp of last presence isn’t user content though
  737. Ge0rG jonasw: "server logs"?
  738. jubalh has joined
  739. jonasw kinda, but it’s shared to peers
  740. Ge0rG so we have: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...) - server logs
  741. jonasw yeah, I’d like to have this separate, because you’re not "safe" as operator just because you turned off logging.
  742. winfried user metadata also includes data on the xmpp client
  743. pep. server logs can include all the above though
  744. Ge0rG winfried: what does an xmpp server store about the client?
  745. pep. server logs do include all the above though
  746. jonasw Ge0rG, entity caps, which may allow mapping to disco#info, which may inclued software and OS version
  747. jonasw probably neither sensitive nor PII
  748. jonasw pep., not credentials, I hope :)
  749. winfried jonasw: it can show when I am at home, at my laptop or only on the mobile
  750. Ge0rG I'd argue that server logs fall under http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm
  751. Dave Cridland has left
  752. winfried it may also show when my connected sex toy is online...
  753. pep. jonasw, if scram then no, otherwise I could imagine it being in there
  754. Ge0rG winfried: your resource string is either user-data or user-metadata
  755. jonasw winfried, I think that’s user content/message content though because clients usually do that by themselves by asking for your disco#info. nothing special is done by the server here.
  756. jonasw (unless it does caps optimization, in that case see above)
  757. jonasw pep., if a server ever logs a password sent with PLAIN, report that as a bug
  758. jonasw even a SCRAM exchange shouldn’t be logged imo.
  759. pep. For debug purposes, for example
  760. jonasw pep., there’s no reason to log passwords for debug reasons.
  761. jonasw but we digress I thnik
  762. Alex has joined
  763. jonasw Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in pace
  764. jonasw Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in place
  765. winfried I think: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...) - server logs is a good devision, because it devides the data in different legal categories
  766. jonasw winfried, I agree (not that I knew about which legal categories there are)
  767. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't see a time limitation in R49
  768. jonasw Ge0rG, to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate
  769. jonasw I think it’s hard to argue that you need to store full prosody debug logs for 2y for example.
  770. Ge0rG jonasw: good point
  771. winfried credentials: by creating these, you may implilcitly give permission for processing pii by the service
  772. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  774. jonasw I don’t think there’s such a thing as implicit consent
  775. Ge0rG So we have (b) covered as well now.
  776. jonasw in GDPR at least
  777. winfried user content: limit discussed earlier
  778. winfried user metadata: as user contant, possible different limitations
  779. winfried server logs r49, with limitations as above
  780. pep. what's this r49 exactly, let me find it
  781. Ge0rG winfried: what about (c), what processing is done? is that implicitly clear?
  782. MattJ has left
  783. Ge0rG pep.: http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm
  784. jonasw Ge0rG, https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/
  785. jonasw that’s probably most relevant regarding (c)
  786. jonasw wait, I might be confused
  787. winfried is waiting
  788. jonasw ah
  789. jonasw don’t wait though
  790. j.r has joined
  791. jonasw in any case, taht article is relevant, probably not for (c) though
  792. jonasw or maybe it is :)
  793. jonasw i just lost all context
  794. Valerian has left
  795. winfried jonasw: I don't understand the coffee cup my client is showing me...
  796. Ge0rG winfried: your client is broken, it replaces letters in braces by pictures of things
  797. jonasw '( c )'
  798. Ge0rG winfried: b = beer, c = coffee
  799. Ge0rG dunno about a=(a)
  800. pep. c) is what processing is done. For that atm I have a quote from winfried, "we should not analyse data (content and metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1 and 9.2", and then jonasw's "you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation"
  801. pep. We haven't done b) for the S2S case, we'll get to that afterwards?
  802. winfried pep.: correct
  803. winfried you can leave out the 'might come from federation' part
  804. jonasw winfried, you *can* do data maning if you got consent from your users -- but not on federated messages
  805. jonasw unless you do some captcha thing
  806. jonasw I feel that’s important to mention
  807. pep. jonasw, more details on the captcha thing?
  808. Ge0rG my take: - credentials: stored as long as the account exists, limited further processing (check user JID against well-know spammer patterns) - user content: stored as long as the account exists (roster, bookmarks, PEP) / for a limited time (messages, http upload)
  809. jonasw not that I’d condone data mining of any kind, but if an operator chooses to do so with consent of their users, they have to restrict to non-federated.
  810. winfried jonasw: I can also ask for consent from federated users
  811. jonasw pep., like, on the first message from a federated user, hold that message and make the federated user click a button on a website with terms of services for all messages sent to that domain.
  812. jonasw winfried, yes, but harder
  813. jonasw because they don’t sign up.
  814. jonasw and it might not be obvious
  815. Nekit has left
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  817. Ge0rG I think we should focus on what processing is technically required, what is typical and not focus on special cases of user-targeting
  818. winfried jonasw: yes, so it is an administrative / technical issue, but legally it seems the same to me
  819. jonasw Ge0rG, +1
  820. Ge0rG also please keep federation out yet
  821. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  822. jonasw I think that federation is the most tricky part though ;-)
  823. winfried jonasw: +1
  824. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe it's not.
  825. Ge0rG so can we get back to minimal and typical please?
  826. pep. agreed with Ge0rG's split for b)
  827. efrit has left
  828. Ge0rG credentials: minimal = store as long as the account exists | typical = spam bot detection user metadata: minimal = store during connection | typical = store with account, spam detection, expose to other users (last activity)
  829. jonasw "typical = spam bot detection" for credentials?
  830. jonasw do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bot??
  831. jonasw do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bots?
  832. pep. localpart or server I guess
  833. pep. Ah wait, not server, just localpart for c2s
  834. Ge0rG user content: minimal = roster,bookmarks with account, PEP in RAM only, offline messages until first client connects | typical = with account, MAM/files for a given amount of time
  835. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm checking usernames against patterns
  836. jonasw Ge0rG, right
  837. jonasw I was thinking about storage only, you were (rightfully so) thinking about processing
  838. pep. (brb, 1 minute)
  839. Dave Cridland has left
  840. winfried Ge0rG: I like that list
  841. Dave Cridland has left
  842. Ge0rG - server logs: minimal = no logs | typical = some days / weeks of logrotate, maybe with IP addresses / message metadata. I'm storing debug logs for two weeks plus additional spam detection logs
  843. Dave Cridland has joined
  844. Ge0rG addenum for user metadata/typical: IP address of registration / of last login
  845. Ge0rG storage of ^
  846. winfried and I nothing that is disproportional or outside reasonable user expectation
  847. Ge0rG Somebody should wifiky that. Or put it into a proper table
  848. Dave Cridland has left
  849. winfried Ge0rG: our notekeeper is afk ;-)
  850. MattJ has left
  851. Ge0rG Sorry, I've vastly exceeded my timebox for this conference, and I need to catch up. I'm semi-AFK now while you figure out the legal grounds beyond R49
  852. pep. !
  853. pep. I'm also usually storing debug logs on the server, and rotating them
  854. jubalh has joined
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  856. winfried lets see where we are now, I have to leave in 20 minutes too
  857. winfried we have come quite far with the c2s part of Q1.1
  858. pep. Yeah, this last bit was d)
  859. pep. For C2S
  860. Dave Cridland has left
  861. winfried still have the tough issue of s2s (federation) open
  862. pep. Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some server provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks
  863. pep. Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some servers provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks
  864. Ge0rG winfried: I have some information on federation, but I think we should make a follow up appointment
  865. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  866. goffi has left
  867. pep. Agreed for the follow-up, I think we can summarize quickly and call it a day
  868. pep. There's already quite a lot of stuff to digest
  869. Ge0rG pep.: you volunteered to create a page on the wiki with the content table, I've heard... 😀
  870. pep. heh
  871. winfried pep.: I can help building the wiki page
  872. winfried can we set a new date?
  873. jubalh has left
  874. Ge0rG winfried: yes please
  875. pep. This week? Next week? How quick do you want to figure this out
  876. Ge0rG This week, some day, same time
  877. winfried pep.: I prefer a short, compact, traject
  878. pep. +2 days? (wed)
  879. winfried pep.: works for me
  880. Ge0rG WFM
  881. pep. jonasw,
  882. pep. I'll try to send minutes soon
  883. winfried pep.: great, thanks a lot
  884. Ge0rG pep.: yay!
  885. jonasw wednesday doesn’t work for me
  886. jonasw sorry, I was distracted
  887. pep. +3 days? +4 doesn't work for me
  888. moparisthebest has joined
  889. jonasw I can’t make reliable statements about any day after wednesday until next weeks thursday
  890. Ge0rG Friday is so temptingly empty on the calendar...
  891. jonasw so the closest thing which would work would be tomorrow, ohterwise it’ll be best-effort on my side.
  892. winfried tomorrow works for me
  893. pep. I can do +4 but after 13CET. I can do +1 yes
  894. Ge0rG WFM too
  895. jonasw okay
  896. pep. ok, +1 day, 12CET
  897. jonasw 12:15 CEST would be easier for me
  898. jonasw (as I learnt today)
  899. pep. ok, 12:15CET.
  900. Dave Cridland has left
  901. jonasw CEST please
  902. winfried +1
  903. jonasw not CET.
  904. jonasw (like today)
  905. pep. Ah, oh
  906. pep. DST.
  907. Ge0rG pep.: CET will be again in half a year
  908. jonasw yeah.
  909. pep. Cool, +1 day 12:15CEST then.
  910. pep. *bang*
  911. jonasw thank you
  912. winfried applauses
  913. Ge0rG Thank *you*!
  914. winfried nice work guys!
  915. jonasw obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1883/
  916. Valerian has joined
  917. pep. Wait so what time is now now in CEST land
  918. Ge0rG pep.: CEST
  919. winfried 14:00
  920. Zash > 14:00:18 pep.> Wait so what time is now now in CEST land
  921. pep. cool
  922. pep. is it*
  923. Dave Cridland has left
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  925. pep. jonasw, :D
  926. winfried yeah, had a laugh on that one too... though I like the idea of california drifting of the mainland :-P
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  933. Seve/SouL Was this meeting announced somewhere? I think I missed some information on this, didn't know this was going to happen
  934. Seve has joined
  935. winfried Seve/SouL: no, we just made the appointmet in this muc after last boardmeeting
  936. Dave Cridland has left
  937. winfried Seve/SouL: do you want to be involved?
  938. Dave Cridland has left
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  948. Seve/SouL Thank you winfried, it's not like I can help on this topic :) Just wondering if I was missing important events. Do not worry, thank you very much :)
  949. jonasw It *should* have been announced on members@
  950. jonasw in the board meeting minutes
  951. jonasw but apparently the minutes haven’t been sent yet
  952. Dave Cridland has left
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  962. pep. btw, anybody knows where I can find more info about the derogation mentioned in https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-13/
  963. Nekit has left
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  965. jonasw pep., https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/ 30.5
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  967. pep. jonasw, thanks
  968. pep. Now I'm not sure most services will fall under that derogation though.
  969. j.r has joined
  970. pep. "[..] unless [..] the processing is not occasional"
  971. Valerian has left
  972. pep. Ok I'll keep that for next time
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  980. pep. > jonasw> some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof What did you mean with "with proof"?
  981. Guus has left
  982. Zash > 2. This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data: > (c) by a natural person in the course of a purely personal or household activity;
  983. Zash How does that relate to self-hosting?
  984. pep. Yeah I was wondering as well. Will add that to the questions. I guess that's good when you do it for yourself, or with people that also have access to the machine and take care of it (xmpp service)? And doesn't qualify if you start giving accounts to people who don't?
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  992. jonasw pep., you probably need proof for consent
  993. Zash Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet?
  994. Ge0rG Zash: [ ] I accept that you'll bend me over and take my virgi^W data
  995. jonasw my virginia drivers license? no way!
  996. Guus has left
  997. winfried Self hosting is an interesting case too!
  998. alexis has left
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  1000. Ge0rG winfried: self-hosting for yourself or for others?
  1001. Guus has left
  1002. winfried > Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet? Yes, there are quite clear cut rules for, technically not too complicated in matter of facts, de hardest part is asking the right question...
  1003. moparisthebest that's been solved a long time, you just pop up a 15,000 word EULA asking for everything in a tiny window and an 'Accept' button right?
  1004. MattJ has left
  1005. winfried Ge0rG: both are interesting! Though when it among a collective of friends or family it will probably be the same case, but good to check
  1006. winfried moparisthebest: that one has never been valid in the netherlands, if you can't download it in plain text or PDF, it was not legal and standard Dutch law applies!
  1007. jjrh has left
  1008. moparisthebest ctrl+c/ctrl+v downloaded in plain text and therefore legal
  1009. alexis has left
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  1013. Ge0rG reminds me of the first generation of Facebook export, where you got a 500 page PDF file containing all your data.
  1014. winfried moparisthebest: nope, not valid here 😃
  1015. edhelas Ge0rG you can add &exportformat=xml-xmpp to the FB export URL
  1016. Dave Cridland has left
  1017. Ge0rG edhelas: I can't.
  1018. Ge0rG edhelas: because I don't have a Facebook account, I will never know what Facebook logs about me.
  1019. edhelas time to subscribe!
  1020. Guus has left
  1021. Zash The mysterious Shadow Ge0rG
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  1024. flow https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-05#section-5.2.6
  1025. Guus has left
  1026. flow did the authors of this reach out to "us" (i.e. the xmpp community)?
  1027. MattJ has left
  1028. Zash -rfc 8280
  1029. Bunneh Zash: Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations. N. ten Oever, C. Cath. October 2017. (Status: INFORMATIONAL) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280
  1030. Williams W has joined
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  1032. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280#section-5.2.3.4
  1033. edhelas https://takeout.google.com/
  1034. j.r has joined
  1035. Zash Wait what
  1036. Zash > While the protocol does not specify that the resource must be exposed by the client's server to remote users, in practice this has become the default behavior.
  1037. Zash Well I suppose you can do without presence, but uh
  1038. Dave Cridland has left
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  1043. daniel Wait. So telling your contacts that you are available is a bad thing now?
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  1046. Zash flow: I'm not sure I immediately associate any of the authors or thanked people to XMPP
  1047. Ge0rG daniel: doesn't your client show a GDPR disclaimer before you accept a subscription?
  1048. marmistrz has left
  1049. daniel The death of pars
  1050. Ge0rG j.o is still down.
  1051. Zash -ping jabber.org
  1052. Bunneh Zash: Pong from jabber.org in 4.463 seconds
  1053. Ge0rG What? Why?
  1054. Ge0rG Oh, poezio won't auto-rejoin on its own. Sorry.
  1055. Zash Because IPv6
  1056. Dave Cridland has left
  1057. Zash Only Legacy IP is affected.
  1058. Ge0rG Zash: s2s IPv6 failed today as well. I blame prosody
  1059. Ge0rG | -> conference.jabber.org [s2sout56531a7fbce0] (authenticated) (encrypted) (IPv6) | <- conference.jabber.org [s2sin5653218deb10] (authenticated) (encrypted)
  1060. Ge0rG There is an interesting discrepancy.
  1061. MattJ has left
  1062. moparisthebest firewall is blocking incoming ipv4 but not outgoing ipv4
  1063. Zash DoS protection or something?
  1064. Ge0rG DoS-by-DoS-protection.
  1065. intosi No, firewall blocks ipv4 the main address, both ingress and egress.
  1066. intosi I added temp a secondary IP.
  1067. Ge0rG Ah, that also explains why it didn't work at all in the beginning.
  1068. Ge0rG I suppose the fallback to IPv6 egress didn't happen?
  1069. intosi It kinda did, but not entirely.
  1070. Ge0rG We really need better debugging tools. Something like a dynamic log where we can easily filter by JID
  1071. Ge0rG Maybe I need to dump all my prosody logs into something like kibana or elasticsearch.
  1072. alexis has joined
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  1075. MattJ I was looking into elasticsearch for MAM...
  1076. MattJ I think it's overkill though
  1077. Ge0rG MattJ: not for MAM, for log analysis
  1078. MattJ I know, my message was semi-unrelated
  1079. Kev I put my logs into elasticsearch for a while and didn't find any use for it so stopped.
  1080. Ge0rG it would be great to have a mod_log_json which would dump structured records of each event via some socket interface
  1081. Zash Was dog-something related to logs, or just stats?
  1082. Ge0rG Kev: yesterday I sent a message to a MUC on my server from my mobile client, and it was rejected. As I don't have logs from the mobile, there is no way to find out what happened now.
  1083. MattJ Zash, Datadog added log support recently (it might still be in beta, not sure)
  1084. alexis has joined
  1085. Kev Ge0rG: Me not finding a use for something and it not being useful aren't quite the same thing. Despite me obviously being the center of the world.
  1086. Ge0rG Kev: let me remind you of H2G2.
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  1113. Maranda H2G2
  1114. Maranda 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔
  1115. Ge0rG -EEMOJIOVERFLOW
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  1118. edhelas let's remove emojis support from XMPP ;-)
  1119. Ge0rG let's remove Maranda support from xsf@ :PP
  1120. Zash ASCII-only
  1121. intosi stty -emoji ?
  1122. Maranda -E_STOPUSINGCONSOLECLI_PROBLEM_SOLVED
  1123. Maranda :P
  1124. edhelas with XHTML-IM I can send images to all the XMPP clients, so ASCII-only will do
  1125. Ge0rG My console has a perfect two-way mapping of Unicode Emoji to ASCII. It only ever failed on foo:iq:bar
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  1142. Maranda Ge0rG, and male emojis *coughs*
  1143. Maranda has good memory.
  1144. Maranda ... for now :P
  1145. pep. Zash, can you reply to the minutes I just sent for your question earlier?
  1146. pep. Under Q1.1.a I guess
  1147. pep. (re personal/household activity)
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  1157. Ge0rG Are <stanza-id> elements mandatory in MUC history playback on a MAM-enabled MUC?
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  1160. Zash Please wait for food coma to subside
  1161. Zash pep.: Please wait for food coma to subside
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  1163. Ge0rG pep.: to the time machine! 😁 > Date of Next: 2018/03/17
  1164. pep. ah merde
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  1167. Ge0rG pep.: let me read the whole thing before you send out an update :D
  1168. pep. k
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  1170. pep. We do cover c) with some stuff in b), I guess I could have split that
  1171. Ge0rG pep.: okay, everything else is fine with me :)
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  1173. Ge0rG pep.: thanks for taking minutes, and it's nice to see the conscise form of the discussion
  1174. pep. :)
  1175. Ge0rG pep.: maybe members@ is not the right venue, though
  1176. jonasw I feel it is the righter venue than standards@
  1177. ralphm has joined
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  1179. pep. Yeah I was wondering, I'm not sure
  1180. Ge0rG jonasw: what do you feel is the most rightest one?
  1181. pep. But I don't think it should be in standards. if any I would have put that in operators as well maybe
  1182. jonasw I think members@ is a good start for now
  1183. jonasw we might want to cross-post to operators@ at some point.
  1184. pep. :)
  1185. jonasw pep., hmm, now that I think of it, getting people from operators@ on board could be a good idea
  1186. jonasw pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed dat?
  1187. jonasw pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed date? maybe someone will show up.
  1188. pep. Sure
  1189. Zash Phew
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  1200. Ge0rG Zash: you are the one with the conversion magic skills. I'm looking for a way to convert https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid/ into something I can read on a mobile device
  1201. ralphm has joined
  1202. Zash Ge0rG: How is the HTML?
  1203. jonasw Ge0rG, xml2rfc --raw?
  1204. Ge0rG Zash: it sucks.
  1205. Ge0rG It's like ASCII text, but with added references.
  1206. Zash And the text/plain?
  1207. Zash Hm
  1208. jonasw hm, --raw isn’t great
  1209. Zash xml2rfc had a better html output when I tried it the other day
  1210. Ge0rG I want something like epub, where the text reflow is controlled by the client UI in accordance with my font settings and viewport size.
  1211. MattJ It has ASCII diagrams in it
  1212. Ge0rG MattJ: I can live with horizontal scrolling on those.
  1213. Zash Ge0rG: How is this on your device? https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html
  1214. jonasw Ge0rG, xml2rfc --html
  1215. Zash That's (I think) what you get from `xml2rfc --html`
  1216. jonasw Ge0rG, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-05.html example
  1217. jonasw the width is set dynamically
  1218. LNJ has joined
  1219. jonasw (it is just a max-width)
  1220. Ge0rG https://upload.yax.im/upload/2D5IcQiw14tuMVQa/Screenshot_20180326-174545.png
  1221. jonasw which is good
  1222. MattJ has left
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  1224. MattJ "Using the XMPP publish-subscribe extension [XEP-0030],"
  1225. Ge0rG jonasw: your rendering sets the width to 75% of my screen, but at least I can zoom in the other 25%, making the size almost bearable
  1226. jonasw m(
  1227. jonasw I tried it on my device
  1228. jonasw stupid
  1229. jonasw Ge0rG, interestingly, the ctrl+shift+m thing on firefox which is supposed to emulate mobile devices does it better than the actual mobile firefox.
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  1234. Ge0rG Really, can't we just have epub/mobi? With HTML, browser vendors haven't figured out to remember the screen position I stopped reading at. In 2018. It's a shame.
  1235. Ge0rG Almost as bad as XMPP.
  1236. pep. Ge0rG, they do? don't they?
  1237. pep. FF does that for me
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  1239. jonasw Ge0rG, reload mine
  1240. Ge0rG pep.: sometimes they do, but as soon as they have to rerender the page, all bets are off
  1241. jonasw oh reader mode actually works fine
  1242. jonasw on that rendering
  1243. jonasw so maybe just use that
  1244. jonasw meh,e xcept for the ascii diagrams of course
  1245. Ge0rG The Debian man page for xml2rfc is awesome as well: > The xml2rfc script requires python 2, with a version of 2.6 or higher. Can't proceed, quitting.
  1246. Zash Can haz xml2rfc2epub ?
  1247. jonasw Ge0rG, re-try my rendering. you have to zoom in because of the diagrams, but otherwise it should be fine
  1248. moparisthebest I've pretty much given in to the fact that I'll always be required to have python 2 and 3 on every computer forever
  1249. Zash Ge0rG: pandoc can turn html into epub, but it's usually kinda messy
  1250. jonasw it’s xml2rfc with <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1" /> added
  1251. Ge0rG jonasw: how do I do "Reader mode" on mobile FF?
  1252. marc has joined
  1253. jonasw it’s next to the address bar
  1254. Zash gah, forgot to enter my email password
  1255. Ge0rG Ah. Thanks. It even supports changing the font size. Almost awesome.
  1256. jonasw Ge0rG, yeah, aside from the ascii art diagrams :(
  1257. Ge0rG But still not epub. I don't trust it to remember my reading position over the next OOM kill.
  1258. jonasw it won’t probably
  1259. Zash Whoever thought having the same keybinding for "back" and "quit" in mutt ...
  1260. jonasw you should’ve said that at the beginning, Ge0rG
  1261. jonasw :(
  1262. Ge0rG And it's grey on grey.
  1263. jonasw it’s black on white here
  1264. Zash Ge0rG: pandoc blah.html -o blah.epub ?
  1265. Zash or -s -o b blah.markdown and tweak it a bit then -o epub
  1266. Zash Basically how I read blags these days
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  1269. Ge0rG Okay, epub has great text rendering, but the ASCII diagrams are unusable :D
  1270. Ge0rG Thanks everyone.
  1271. Ge0rG jonasw: FF reader mode is light-grey on dark-grey. I have no idea who thought that's a good idea.
  1272. Dave Cridland has left
  1273. jonasw Ge0rG, switch the color scheme
  1274. alexis has left
  1275. jonasw it defaults to auto
  1276. alexis has joined
  1277. jonasw maybe something is weird on your device
  1278. jonasw (it’s in the same menu as the font size)
  1279. Ge0rG jonasw: mine is "dark", and that's a low-contrast theme.
  1280. daniel has left
  1281. jonasw switch to light.
  1282. alexis has left
  1283. Ge0rG it's better contrast, but I actually wanted a dark theme.
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  1286. Ge0rG okay, my FBReader might be a bit extreme, 50% red on 100% black
  1287. Maranda Infamous "Disco Pub(Sub)" xep
  1288. Ge0rG but it's great for OLED display reading at night
  1289. Maranda Now I understand Yaxim's colour scheme reason.
  1290. Ge0rG &
  1291. jonasw Ge0rG, I feel you might actually want redshift instead.
  1292. jonasw (or LiveDisplay how LineageOS calls it)
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  1295. jonasw the most amazing thing invented for displays
  1296. jonasw (also known as f.lux or xflux)
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  1335. jonasw pep., I forgot to say it, thanks a lot for taking the minutes :-)
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  1339. pep. You're welcome
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  1342. pep. I forgot to specify maybe we haven't treated S2S cases yet, and that's going to come later on. Will indicate that tomorrow
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  1345. Zash How's jabber.org doing?
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  1436. jonasw I’m joined in jdev@
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  1439. jonasw so I assume I got lucky with ipv6?
  1440. jonasw v4 still blackholes
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  1453. pep. yay presence-less clients. andrey.g is spamming the room with join/parts :x
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  1619. moparisthebest TLS 1.3 approved https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg17592.html
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  1629. pep. Woohoo
  1630. Zash So, does it hide SNI and ALPN or did the firewall vendors manage to block that?
  1631. Zash Seemed to go back and forth a bit on that IIRC
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