Monday, March 26, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:08:49] <Ge0rG> When is it legal to send a message _from_ a bare JID?
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[07:10:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, as a client, you can’t
[07:11:13] <jonasw> a server will do that when the message is "from the account", like MAM responses or PEP I think
[07:12:11] <Ge0rG> I'm receiving spam from a bare JID.
[07:12:25] <jonasw> what
[07:12:33] <jonasw> goofy server I’d say
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[07:13:02] <Ge0rG> -version bnw.im
[07:13:03] <Bunneh> Ge0rG: bnw.im is running BnW version 0.1 on OS/360
[07:13:08] <jonasw> RFC 6120 is rather clear on that:
1. When a server receives an XML stanza from a connected client, the
server MUST add a 'from' attribute to the stanza or override the
'from' attribute specified by the client, where the value of the
'from' attribute MUST be the full JID
(<localpart@domainpart/resource>) determined by the server for
the connected resource that generated the stanza (see
Section 4.3.6), or the bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>) in the
case of subscription-related presence stanzas (see [XMPP-IM]).
[07:13:28] <Maranda> Spam Server!
[07:13:41] <jonasw> I can’t into cyrillic
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[07:13:53] <jonasw> seems to be some type of social network thing
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[07:15:24] <Maranda> All the spam is into cyrillic.
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[07:16:55] <Maranda> Looks like 4chan
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[08:01:37] <Ge0rG> -ping jabber.org
[08:01:40] <Ge0rG> -ping conference.jabber.org
[08:02:14] <Kev> The host seems to not be reachable.
[08:02:39] <jonasw> yeah
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[08:03:31] <Ge0rG> This is an example of why it's good to have our MUCs spread over multiple servers. We can still talk about downtime
[08:03:37] <jonasw> DMUC!
[08:03:39] <jonasw> or FMUC?
[08:04:03] <jonasw> did anyone think about how to integrate federation in an extension to MIX?
[08:04:12] <Ge0rG> BOMFUNK!
[08:04:19] <jonasw> or maybe just cluster MIX services
[08:04:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, Boomfunk MCs?
[08:04:40] <Steve Kille> I've been thinking about FMIX, but I think we need to get "vanilla MIX" sorted first
[08:04:48] <jonasw> Steve Kille, agreed
[08:04:51] <Kev> J.org was going to be clustered, but we just never got around to it.
[08:05:05] <jonasw> Ge0rG, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNFyxvIdaM
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[08:05:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: one of my favorite pieces of 1990ies music.
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[08:05:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, :-)
[08:05:36] <jonasw> oh, too many os
[08:05:41] <jonasw> gotta fix that in my music library
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[08:07:10] <Bunneh> Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed
[08:07:12] <Bunneh> Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed
[08:07:30] <Ge0rG> Wow, Bunneh has some serious timeout issues
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[08:10:18] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it’s just diligent
[08:10:31] <jonasw> Ge0rG, just in case you host your server on your mobile phone.
[08:11:01] <Ge0rG> I was shocked to hear that conversations.im has a 60 seconds 0198 ack timeout
[08:11:15] <jonasw> that’s long or that’s short?
[08:11:19] <intosi> Those with IPv6 should be able to see c.j.o and j.o
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[08:11:57] <intosi> Only the IPv4 connectivity seems to be dead.
[08:12:14] <Ge0rG> I'm dualstacked. In theory.
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[08:12:34] <jonasw> hm,w eird
[08:12:44] <jonasw> I’m dualstacked in practice, but it doesn’t work
[08:13:01] <jonasw> into the debug logs!
[08:13:30] <Ge0rG> my prosody was keeping an s2s connection and failed to send data that way.
[08:13:42] <Ge0rG> after killing it, it retried ipv4, now ipv6.
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[08:15:10] <intosi> My prosody was, as well.
[08:15:17] <jonasw> I blame the SRV records
[08:15:29] <jonasw> _xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 30 30 5269 hermes2.jabber.org.
_xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 31 30 5269 hermes2v6.jabber.org.
[08:15:38] <jonasw> why separate records for v6 and v4, and why prefer v4?
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[08:16:04] <jonasw> hm, my prosody does not try the next one after the first times out
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[08:16:08] <jonasw> might be my old 0.9.x version though
[08:16:26] <intosi> There used to be too many clients with ipv6 issues in the past.
[08:16:33] <jonasw> intosi, servers, too?
[08:16:57] <intosi> IPv6 in general was an unhappier place five years ago, when these records were set up.
[08:17:31] <jonasw> maybe a change is due
[08:17:52] <jonasw> haven’t had issues (I know about) with dual-stacked records
[08:17:53] <intosi> Quite likely.
[08:18:04] <jonasw> this would be a good time for change ;-)
[08:18:08] <intosi> There used to be a lot of Teredo links, a lot of them barely functioning.
[08:18:28] <jonasw> that makes it a bit more funny that the v4 route aborts at an HE router…
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[08:19:43] <jonasw> also, turns out, grepping for jabber.org in debug logs isn’t htat useful. "[…]xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'[…]" and the likes
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[08:20:51] <Ge0rG> Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sending: <db:result to='conference.jabber.org' from='yax.im'>
Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sent dialback key on outgoing s2s stream
And then nothing happens.
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[08:29:56] <Ge0rG> So it looks like dialback is never completed, then timeouts
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[08:32:06] <Andrew Nenakhov> jonasw, I can into Cyrillic but this one is not meant to be easily understood by normal people
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[08:38:15] <Ge0rG> intosi, Kev: are you interested in further debugging why s2s over ipv6 still fails?
[08:38:47] <intosi> Ge0rG: thanks for the offer, but I can fully reproduce the issue myself at the moment.
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[08:39:20] <intosi> It appears that hermes2, the host running jabber.org, has its IPv4 traffic blocked at its gateway.
[08:39:30] <intosi> Not blocked, but blackholed.
[08:39:37] <Ge0rG> Your ISP switched you to DS-Lite, silently :P
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[08:40:12] <intosi> That might be the result of excess ingress or egress connections earlier, I haven't checked yet.
[08:40:47] <Tobias> Ge0rG, it's hard to get large packets as IPv6 through the big walls of a bunker
[08:41:04] <intosi> The IPv6 packets are actually getting through ;)
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[08:41:17] <intosi> It's the tiny IPv4 packets that are filtered out :D
[08:41:25] <Ge0rG> Tobias: I didn't know j.o is running on Bulletproof Hosting.
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[08:41:51] <Ge0rG> maybe they are too small to swim alone, and j.o is hosted on Sealand instead?
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[09:29:51] <jonasw> Ge0rG, winfried: +10min for me
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[09:45:38] <pep.> !
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[10:00:34] <Williams W> ?
[10:00:48] <Williams W> hello
[10:00:51] <MattJ> Hello
[10:00:57] <pep.> Hello
[10:00:58] <Williams W> china ?
[10:01:09] <Williams W> im china~
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[10:02:41] <Williams W> `
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[10:04:38] <winfried> Hi,
[10:04:54] <winfried> sorry for being a bit late, had to fetch my luunch ;-)
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[10:05:11] <pep.> winfried, !
[10:05:16] <Ge0rG> I haven't had lunch yet.
[10:05:20] <pep.> jonasw said +10mn apparently
[10:05:29] <pep.> It's still 11am for me :-°
[10:05:35] <winfried> pep.: I know
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[10:05:54] <winfried> (about jonasw )
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[10:06:43] <winfried> Shall we start and check with jonasw when he joins us?
[10:07:22] <Seve/SouL> Some meeting going on now?
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[10:07:36] <winfried> Seve/SouL: GDPR & XSF meeting
[10:08:49] <pep.> I guess we can wait a bit, it's already 9
[10:09:06] <winfried> also good ;-)
[10:09:07] <pep.> I guess we can wait a bit, it's already :09
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[10:13:17] <jonasw> I'm close
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[10:16:54] <jonasw> here I am
[10:17:00] <pep.> !
[10:17:18] <winfried> welcome, should someone bang a gafel?
[10:17:29] <pep.> Sure
[10:17:58] <pep.> Ge0rG, jonasw, winfried, pep.!
[10:18:05] <pep.> *bang*
[10:18:09] <jonasw> so, I‘ve got a few things
[10:18:10] <winfried> ;-)
[10:18:13] <winfried> I think there are three questions at hand:
Q1) What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network and Jabber server operators and what can/should do the XSF with that?
Q2) What consequences does the GDPR has for the XSF run Jabber server?
Q3) What consequences does the GDPR has for the work processes of the XSF itself (membership, voting, wiki etc)?
[10:19:21] <jonasw> if it’s okay, I‘ll just dump a few notes I took during a talk about GDPR for self-hosters at the chemnitzer linux tage
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[10:19:38] <winfried> jonasw: go ahead!
[10:19:49] <jonasw> it’s mostly a random collection of stuff which I felt was important
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[10:20:22] <jonasw> first some key articles about the rights of the subjects of the data: art. 13, 14, plus possibly 7, 15, 12, 16, 17, 21 and 20
[10:20:23] <Ge0rG> Yes please. I also had a talk with out GDPR expert regarding self-hosting, so we should be able to align those
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[10:20:42] <jonasw> there are rights for transfer of data between providers, in article 20
[10:20:58] <jonasw> some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof
[10:21:10] <jonasw> and the articles about notifying about data breaches, 33 and 34
[10:21:38] <jonasw> and something about a directory of data stored, processed and shared supposedly detailed in article 30
[10:21:55] <jonasw> as I mentioned, those are really just quick notes I took, I haven’t had the chance to look deeply into this. Those are the articles I plan to have a deeper look, and which might be most relevant. but IANAL
[10:22:36] <jonasw> for the german folks: the speaker said that most of the GDPR has been german law for ages already, so germans have even less of an excuse ;-)
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[10:22:56] <jonasw> end-of-dump
[10:22:59] <Ge0rG> winfried: do you want to chair this? Maybe we should split the three questions from Q1 into individual ones, and also put https://trello.com/c/t79C3Yds/307-gdpr-advice on the agenda
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[10:23:46] <jonasw> we might also want to look very closely at the legal definitions of Controller and Processor and Join Controller etc.
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[10:24:14] <winfried> Ge0rG: if jonasw and pep. don't mind me chairing, yes
[10:24:17] <jonasw> as well as the intent, which isn’t defined clearly
[10:24:24] <pep.> winfried, sure
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[10:25:23] <jonasw> the speaker mentioned that the intent as well as the separation of controller and processor or something can make a huge difference. he for example assumed that their company wasn’t affected much because while they have their users data (as a hoster), they do not directly work with that (so no intent of usage) and thus they’re not affected
[10:25:42] <jonasw> he was from hostsharing.net fwiw (german)
[10:25:45] *** Ge0rG changed the title to "XSF GDPR Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[10:25:50] <winfried> I propose to take step beck: there is the legal discussion about things like jurisdiction, processor/controller, legal ground for processing, risk of data, transfer etc
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[10:26:23] <winfried> but there is also a question about cooperation with the IETF for example on this
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[10:26:42] <Ge0rG> winfried: the IETF is facing the same problems we are?
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[10:27:11] <winfried> Ge0rG: possibly, the IETF was mentioned in the mail to the board
[10:27:26] <jonasw> (because someone mentioned it here, actually.)
[10:27:35] <Ge0rG> winfried: do we know who at the IETF is working on it?
[10:27:44] <winfried> I have no idea
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[10:27:46] <Ge0rG> (how) should we collaborate with them?
[10:28:00] <Ge0rG> Somebody needs to find out and contact them then
[10:28:23] <winfried> who takes notes? I see a to-do here ;-)
[10:28:35] <Ge0rG> we need a minute taker!
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[10:28:42] <winfried> :-P
[10:29:00] <pep.> Can do, that'll force me to understand what's been said
[10:29:02] <Ge0rG> Sorry, I'm 120% busy with work, so this is borrowed time already.
[10:29:07] <jonasw> this seems to touch on Q3 and I’d like to challenge the premise of that
[10:29:09] <Ge0rG> pep.: :+1:
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[10:29:29] <winfried> jonasw: this may touch Q1 too
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[10:30:00] <winfried> jonasw: can you elaborate your challenge?
[10:30:09] <jonasw> to my knowledge, the XSF does not handle non-public data
[10:30:13] <jonasw> voting may be the only exception
[10:30:22] <jonasw> the MUCs are public, the wiki is public
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[10:31:03] <jonasw> the only non-public data aside from voting *may* be the email adresses used for wiki accounts; which aren’t sensitive according to article 9 (1), so much less relevant.
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[10:31:54] <winfried> jonasw: and the e-mail adresses are inherent to the service provided. Still we can question if the GDPR is applicable to the XSF at all
[10:31:57] <jonasw> (one could construe that voting data are "political opinions" though)
[10:32:12] <jonasw> winfried, that’s another matter, indeed
[10:32:19] <jonasw> but even if it does apply, I don’t think it matters
[10:32:24] <Ge0rG> email addresses are not sensitive, but they are personal data. So we _are_ storing personal data.
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[10:33:40] <winfried> But to apply to become a member, I have to state my real name on a public wiki and I have to include my employer (and contact data). Are there any rules about how long that should be stored / stay public?
[10:33:41] <pep.> jonasw, does everything on the member application fall under 9.1?
[10:33:53] <pep.> fullname, email, employer, etc.
[10:34:13] <pep.> Though these pages are public indeed
[10:34:16] <jonasw> pep., the member application (like everything else on the wiki) is covered by article 9 (2) e) I think
[10:34:29] <jonasw> > processing relates to personal data which are manifestly made public by the data subject;
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[10:35:01] <pep.> hmm, is it really email we ask for on the membership or JID?
[10:35:10] <Ge0rG> Wiki accounts can be created by non-members, so their email address is not published by themselves.
[10:35:11] <jonasw> pep., email is needed for a wiki account
[10:35:13] <Ge0rG> pep.: both
[10:35:18] <winfried> jonasw: yes, I think it is 9.2, but is that the right discussion to have right here right now?
[10:35:30] <Ge0rG> winfried: you are the chair!
[10:35:32] <jonasw> winfried, dunno, I answered pep.s question :)
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[10:35:53] <pep.> Sorry, just for the notes
[10:36:02] <winfried> :-)
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[10:36:25] <winfried> Ok, then I make a procudural proposal:
[10:36:33] <winfried> I popsted 3 issues
[10:37:08] <winfried> I think we should take each of them and inventise how big the potential problem is and what research we still need to do
[10:37:28] <Ge0rG> winfried: yes. also please split up Q1.
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[10:37:42] <jonasw> winfried, okay
[10:37:48] <jonasw> make a headline and we’re good to go :)
[10:37:49] <winfried> and then try to make a (preliminary) assesment of a good strategy
[10:37:54] <pep.> Agreed, we should split Q1
[10:37:59] <winfried> *** Q1 ***
[10:38:18] <winfried> proposals to split?
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[10:38:48] <Ge0rG> winfried:
Q1.1 What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network
Q1.2 ... and Jabber server operators
Q1.3 ... and what can/should do the XSF with that?
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[10:39:03] <pep.> Also Q2 goes into Q1.2 doesn't it?
[10:39:23] <Ge0rG> pep.: Q2 depends on Q1.2
[10:39:29] <winfried> yes
[10:39:35] <pep.> k
[10:39:48] <winfried> *** Q1.1 ***
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[10:40:23] <jonasw> Q1.1 raises the question of how consent works in a federated network.
[10:40:27] <jonasw> we have no idea.
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[10:40:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wait, what? elaborate that please
[10:40:54] <winfried> I think it is good to follow the line:
a is it in the GDPR jurisdiction, what data is
[10:40:56] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I send you a message. you have MAM which stores forever. I never consented to your servers MAM storage.
[10:40:58] <pep.> I think he's referring to the questions he raised for the previous board
[10:41:04] <winfried> b what data is processed
[10:41:17] <winfried> c what processing is done
[10:41:45] <winfried> (forgetting about responsible party/processer)
[10:42:08] <winfried> d what ground does the processing have
[10:42:26] <winfried> e possible consequences
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[10:42:49] <Ge0rG> winfried: (a) processing data of users in the EU requires GDPR compliance. Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are.
[10:42:49] <jonasw> winfried, what is "it" in your (a)?
[10:43:14] <Ge0rG> winfried: so basically all servers that are not geo-locked to exclude the EU fall under GDPR
[10:43:55] <winfried> jonasw: good question in a federated network
[10:44:27] <winfried> I think we should regard each server as its own legal entity, and the federation as a kind of processing (exchanging data)
[10:44:33] <Ge0rG> I think it makes sense to define the roles as well. An XMPP server operator is a "controller", and whoever does the hosting and other services for them is a "processor"
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[10:45:06] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[10:45:10] <Ge0rG> winfried: we have strong parallels to email. I agree with your conclusion regarding server = legal entity
[10:45:17] <pep.> Hmm, that doesn't fit with what you said winfried
[10:45:24] <winfried> pep.: ?
[10:46:02] <pep.> You said "exchanging data", would that fit into "transfering data", and not "processing" per se
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[10:46:42] <Ge0rG> I suggest we first focus on a single server before widening up to federation
[10:47:06] <pep.> k
[10:47:36] <pep.> The c2s-only case is a lot more straightforward
[10:47:36] <winfried> pep.: (breaking my head, is transfering / exchangeing legally seen also a kind of processing, let that discussion dangle for a moment)
[10:47:41] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
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[10:48:59] <winfried> Ge0rG: on your: "Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are. " - I think we can safely say yes in that one
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[10:49:23] <winfried> though not cast in iron, the first opinions point in that direction
[10:49:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, winfried, alternatively, in the case of MAM, we could argue that the User is the Controller and the server doing the storage is the Processor.
[10:49:43] <Ge0rG> winfried: I've heard different opinions on that, we should say "probably yes"
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[10:49:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no!
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[10:49:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why?
[10:50:14] <winfried> we should also add a non-EU server targeting EU-citizens
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[10:50:52] <winfried> jonasw: as far as I know the user can't be the controller, just the data subject...
[10:51:32] <Ge0rG> winfried: non-EU server targeting EU-citizens must also comply with GDPR
[10:51:51] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes
[10:52:26] <Ge0rG> so we've got (a) now, up to (b)?
[10:52:41] <winfried> yes, please ;-)
[10:53:05] <winfried> does a xmpp server (c2s) process personal data? I think that is a yes too:
[10:53:12] <jonasw> this is a strong YES
[10:53:19] <winfried> jid as identifyer
[10:53:21] <jonasw> it is even sensitive data according to article 9 (1), I’m pretty sure.
[10:53:26] <winfried> ip-adresses
[10:53:27] <Ge0rG> A server is storing a users' JID and login credentials, roster content (with names), bookmarks, offline/MAM history
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[10:53:38] <jonasw> http upload, too
[10:53:41] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't think it's sensitive.
[10:53:44] <jonasw> avatar and vcard are "meant to be public"?
[10:53:50] <jonasw> Ge0rG, depends on the message content, doesn’t it?
[10:53:53] <jonasw> you have to assume it is
[10:54:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not sure this is how it works.
[10:54:06] <jonasw> why not?
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[10:54:54] <winfried> think it is good to distrinc here between the data that is structurally collected and data like the content that is forwarded/stored
[10:55:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I assume that art9 applies if you collect sensitive data from users, not if they give it to you without you asking
[10:55:36] <jonasw> Ge0rG, any source for that?
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[10:57:01] <winfried> is anybody aware of an analyses of the status of communication services within the GDPR?
[10:57:24] <pep.> Ge0rG, I'd say any <message> almost, rather than MAM? or "history" in general (nit)
[10:57:28] *jonasw googles
[10:57:30] <jonasw> > How Cloud Communications Can Help You Comply With GDPR
[10:57:31] <jonasw> oh my god
[10:58:14] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I would argue as follows: the user uploads the data because they want you to forward it to the receipient, so there is a art6 §1 d or f legitimate interest
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[10:58:48] <winfried> I think we can use the pictures analogy here: you can find out if people have certain diseases from a picture, but pictures aren't sensitive data until you analyse them
[10:59:01] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I thought that Article 9 (1) overrides that.
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[10:59:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you can't google that. don't even try "email gdpr"
[10:59:22] <jonasw> mind that article 9 (1) is not (only) a definition, but a "shall be prohibited" and only (2) defines exceptions for that.
[10:59:22] <pep.> Ge0rG, though jingle-ft could be used for that, most of the time
[11:00:16] <winfried> storing and forwarding a (very) personal chat may keep us out of 9.1 as long it isn't analysed / indexed on words as 'sex'...
[11:00:17] <pep.> The legitimacy of server-side component lies for offline delivery, and groupchats(?)
[11:00:27] <Ge0rG> (a) the data subject has given explicit consent to the processing of those personal data
[11:01:01] <jonasw> winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the reasoning though
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[11:01:19] <jonasw> winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the recitals though
[11:01:24] <jonasw> so maybe that analogy doesn’t work
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[11:01:33] <jonasw> > The processing of photographs should not systematically be considered to be processing of special categories of personal data as they are covered by the definition of biometric data only when processed through a specific technical means allowing the unique identification or authentication of a natural person.
[11:01:35] <winfried> jonasw: true
[11:02:08] <Ge0rG> That's actually a good analogy.
[11:02:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, regarding Art. 9 (2) a): exactly, which is why I said we need a way to make users express consent for that.
[11:02:50] <jonasw> and server operators need a way to be sure of that to an extent where they can blame others if the recorded statement is false
[11:02:55] <Ge0rG> So we have the meta-data actually requested by the XMPP server: JID, name(?), email(?), IP address(es)(?)
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[11:03:28] <Ge0rG> this meta-data is not sensitive.
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[11:04:03] <jonasw> note that "storing" is a subset of processing.
[11:04:09] <Ge0rG> and we have the actual data that's sent by the user, which is stored / processed. As long as we don't do racial profiling on that, it's not sensitive either.
[11:04:18] <pep.> jonasw, true
[11:04:18] <jonasw> I’m not convinced
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[11:04:38] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I think it must still be declared and the user must still consent for storage at least, because of the risk of data breaches.
[11:05:01] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wait, are you still talking of art9?
[11:05:06] <jonasw> I think so
[11:05:17] <Zash> Analyzing for SPAM, does that matter?
[11:05:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I agree regarding the general requirements of the GDPR, but not art9
[11:05:25] <winfried> Zash: yes
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[11:05:49] <Ge0rG> Zash: not for art9, I'd say. Unless your SPAM detector is a Jew detector in practice.
[11:06:08] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it might be a sexual content detector in practice.
[11:06:15] <jonasw> for email at least.
[11:06:32] <pep.> or a cyrillic detector
[11:06:43] <pep.> :-°
[11:06:48] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think the only viable reason to run a sexual content detector is to block the latter, in which case GDPR does not apply?
[11:07:01] <winfried> Ge0rG: not 'in practice' but explictely
[11:07:54] <winfried> I have a feeling that as long as we don't analyse data (content AND metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1, 9.1 is not appliccable
[11:08:23] <jonasw> winfried, I like that idea. I’m not sure on that though. It would be good to get legal advice on this.
[11:08:31] <jonasw> this might be focused enough to actually get an answer to.
[11:08:38] <jonasw> but what do I know.
[11:08:52] <winfried> pep.: I see a to-do ;-)
[11:08:56] <pep.> yep
[11:09:51] <pep.> so any kind of mod_firewall trickery will probably get us off that safe land?
[11:10:16] <pep.> What's meant by "analyse" here exactly
[11:10:38] <pep.> Also, "from art 9.1, 9.2", right?
[11:10:42] <jonasw> analyze to an extent where you could say "this person would elect Democrats in the next election"
[11:10:59] <jonasw> (or similar statements about the other sensitive attributes mentioned in 9.1)
[11:11:08] <winfried> or 'this person has sex once a month'
[11:11:34] <pep.> k
[11:11:35] <Zash> Not the things needed for routing, right
[11:11:44] <winfried> Zash: exactly
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[11:11:58] <pep.> Zash, depends? Maybe you'll route differently if they have sex more often
[11:12:15] <pep.> Anyway, going on?
[11:12:38] <winfried> yes
[11:12:39] <pep.> That's b and c "sorted"?
[11:12:44] <pep.> For the C2S case
[11:13:01] <pep.> Maybe c not entirely "what processing is done", we could maybe list a few common cases
[11:13:29] <winfried> I think we can safely say a XMPP server operator is a controller (not the hoster)
[11:13:37] <jonasw> I think what we *at the very minimum* learn from this given the technical means in the Jabber network is: you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation.
[11:13:44] <pep.> winfried, agreed on that
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[11:14:18] <winfried> jonasw: agree
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[11:15:04] <pep.> jonasw, why especially federation
[11:15:10] <jonasw> pep., because federated users cannot consent
[11:15:14] <jonasw> you could get consent from your local users
[11:15:32] <pep.> I see
[11:15:33] <winfried> do we have a clear idea of the data collected and processed in a xmpp server?
[11:15:45] <jonasw> and operators might fall for "I got consent from my users, so I’m fine with processing their messages" but that’s in fact false because you’d need consent from the senders too
[11:15:54] <jonasw> winfried, I think Ge0rG gave a list earlier
[11:16:08] <pep.> I have listed:
- JID
- login credentials
- roster content (with names)
- bookmarks
- "history" (offline/MAM)
[11:16:11] <jonasw> roster, timestamp of last available presence, mam, offline messages, http upload, in-flight messages
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[11:16:16] <jonasw> ah
[11:16:18] <pep.> Ah right presence
[11:16:21] <jonasw> pep., add "timestamp of last available presence"
[11:16:34] <jonasw> and in general presence is saved transiently to anwser probes
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[11:16:35] <winfried> logfiles with connection data
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[11:17:18] <pep.> winfried, as in? IP? (re private data)
[11:17:22] <jonasw> http upload, too
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[11:17:31] <jonasw> pep., timestamps and IP, yes
[11:17:41] <pep.> jonasw, or any kind of server-side component storage files?
[11:17:43] <pep.> storing*
[11:17:56] <jonasw> pep., yeah
[11:18:02] <jonasw> MUC history, too
[11:18:08] <winfried> also PEP data
[11:18:18] <pep.> MUC history, only applying to private MUCs?
[11:18:18] <jonasw> PEP is by default public
[11:18:25] <Ge0rG> would it make sense to put all that under "user content"?
[11:18:33] <jonasw> probably
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[11:18:54] <winfried> except for the logfiles
[11:19:28] <jonasw> login credentials are hardly user content, too
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[11:19:48] <Ge0rG> what about the roster?
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[11:20:10] <winfried> jonasw: agreed, they may have a different legal status
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[11:20:22] <Ge0rG> I think that roster / bookmarks are special, but (actual) PEP, MAM, offline, HTTP-Upload is all user content
[11:20:35] <jonasw> why are roster and bookmarks special?
[11:20:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: PII, passwords
[11:20:52] <jonasw> are bookmarks PII?
[11:21:05] <Ge0rG> "Georg's private Sex Toys Chat"
[11:21:21] <jonasw> ah, I forgot about that one ;-)
[11:21:28] <jonasw> but isn’t that like message content?
[11:21:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: not sure.
[11:21:38] <winfried> jonasw: I think so
[11:21:49] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why would it be different from message content?
[11:22:09] <Ge0rG> so we have:
- credentials
- user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files)
- server logs
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[11:22:26] <winfried> +1
[11:22:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, timestamp of last presence isn’t user content though
[11:22:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: "server logs"?
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[11:22:54] <jonasw> kinda, but it’s shared to peers
[11:23:03] <Ge0rG> so we have:
- credentials
- user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files)
- user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...)
- server logs
[11:23:23] <jonasw> yeah, I’d like to have this separate, because you’re not "safe" as operator just because you turned off logging.
[11:23:28] <winfried> user metadata also includes data on the xmpp client
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[11:24:10] <pep.> server logs can include all the above though
[11:24:12] <Ge0rG> winfried: what does an xmpp server store about the client?
[11:24:16] <pep.> server logs do include all the above though
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[11:24:46] <jonasw> Ge0rG, entity caps, which may allow mapping to disco#info, which may inclued software and OS version
[11:24:51] <jonasw> probably neither sensitive nor PII
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[11:25:15] <jonasw> pep., not credentials, I hope :)
[11:25:15] <winfried> jonasw: it can show when I am at home, at my laptop or only on the mobile
[11:25:25] <Ge0rG> I'd argue that server logs fall under http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm
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[11:25:33] <winfried> it may also show when my connected sex toy is online...
[11:25:41] <pep.> jonasw, if scram then no, otherwise I could imagine it being in there
[11:25:49] <Ge0rG> winfried: your resource string is either user-data or user-metadata
[11:25:51] <jonasw> winfried, I think that’s user content/message content though because clients usually do that by themselves by asking for your disco#info. nothing special is done by the server here.
[11:25:56] <jonasw> (unless it does caps optimization, in that case see above)
[11:26:15] <jonasw> pep., if a server ever logs a password sent with PLAIN, report that as a bug
[11:26:28] <jonasw> even a SCRAM exchange shouldn’t be logged imo.
[11:26:42] <pep.> For debug purposes, for example
[11:26:57] <jonasw> pep., there’s no reason to log passwords for debug reasons.
[11:27:06] <jonasw> but we digress I thnik
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[11:27:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in pace
[11:27:20] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in place
[11:27:21] <winfried> I think:
- credentials
- user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files)
- user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...)
- server logs
is a good devision, because it devides the data in different legal categories
[11:27:42] <jonasw> winfried, I agree (not that I knew about which legal categories there are)
[11:28:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't see a time limitation in R49
[11:28:16] <jonasw> Ge0rG, to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate
[11:28:27] <jonasw> I think it’s hard to argue that you need to store full prosody debug logs for 2y for example.
[11:28:51] <Ge0rG> jonasw: good point
[11:29:13] <winfried> credentials: by creating these, you may implilcitly give permission for processing pii by the service
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[11:29:37] <jonasw> I don’t think there’s such a thing as implicit consent
[11:29:43] <Ge0rG> So we have (b) covered as well now.
[11:29:43] <jonasw> in GDPR at least
[11:29:48] <winfried> user content: limit discussed earlier
[11:30:14] <winfried> user metadata: as user contant, possible different limitations
[11:30:36] <winfried> server logs r49, with limitations as above
[11:31:08] <pep.> what's this r49 exactly, let me find it
[11:31:11] <Ge0rG> winfried: what about (c), what processing is done? is that implicitly clear?
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[11:31:15] <Ge0rG> pep.: http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm
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[11:31:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/
[11:31:40] <jonasw> that’s probably most relevant regarding (c)
[11:32:26] <jonasw> wait, I might be confused
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[11:32:49] *winfried is waiting
[11:32:55] <jonasw> ah
[11:32:58] <jonasw> don’t wait though
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[11:33:06] <jonasw> in any case, taht article is relevant, probably not for (c) though
[11:33:12] <jonasw> or maybe it is :)
[11:33:19] <jonasw> i just lost all context
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[11:34:01] <winfried> jonasw: I don't understand the coffee cup my client is showing me...
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[11:34:24] <Ge0rG> winfried: your client is broken, it replaces letters in braces by pictures of things
[11:34:25] <jonasw> '( c )'
[11:34:34] <Ge0rG> winfried: b = beer, c = coffee
[11:34:42] <Ge0rG> dunno about a=(a)
[11:35:05] <pep.> c) is what processing is done. For that atm I have a quote from winfried, "we should not analyse data (content and metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1 and 9.2", and then jonasw's "you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation"
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[11:35:56] <pep.> We haven't done b) for the S2S case, we'll get to that afterwards?
[11:36:07] <winfried> pep.: correct
[11:36:26] <winfried> you can leave out the 'might come from federation' part
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[11:36:43] <jonasw> winfried, you *can* do data maning if you got consent from your users -- but not on federated messages
[11:36:52] <jonasw> unless you do some captcha thing
[11:36:57] <jonasw> I feel that’s important to mention
[11:37:15] <pep.> jonasw, more details on the captcha thing?
[11:37:16] <Ge0rG> my take:
- credentials: stored as long as the account exists, limited further processing (check user JID against well-know spammer patterns)
- user content: stored as long as the account exists (roster, bookmarks, PEP) / for a limited time (messages, http upload)
[11:37:20] <jonasw> not that I’d condone data mining of any kind, but if an operator chooses to do so with consent of their users, they have to restrict to non-federated.
[11:37:42] <winfried> jonasw: I can also ask for consent from federated users
[11:37:43] <jonasw> pep., like, on the first message from a federated user, hold that message and make the federated user click a button on a website with terms of services for all messages sent to that domain.
[11:37:50] <jonasw> winfried, yes, but harder
[11:37:54] <jonasw> because they don’t sign up.
[11:37:59] <jonasw> and it might not be obvious
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[11:38:19] <Ge0rG> I think we should focus on what processing is technically required, what is typical and not focus on special cases of user-targeting
[11:38:23] <winfried> jonasw: yes, so it is an administrative / technical issue, but legally it seems the same to me
[11:38:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, +1
[11:38:36] <Ge0rG> also please keep federation out yet
[11:38:44] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[11:38:52] <jonasw> I think that federation is the most tricky part though ;-)
[11:38:59] <winfried> jonasw: +1
[11:39:01] <Ge0rG> jonasw: maybe it's not.
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[11:39:24] <Ge0rG> so can we get back to minimal and typical please?
[11:39:46] <pep.> agreed with Ge0rG's split for b)
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[11:40:56] <Ge0rG> credentials: minimal = store as long as the account exists | typical = spam bot detection
user metadata: minimal = store during connection | typical = store with account, spam detection, expose to other users (last activity)
[11:41:30] <jonasw> "typical = spam bot detection" for credentials?
[11:41:42] <jonasw> do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bot??
[11:41:44] <jonasw> do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bots?
[11:41:48] <pep.> localpart or server I guess
[11:41:56] <pep.> Ah wait, not server, just localpart for c2s
[11:42:10] <Ge0rG> user content: minimal = roster,bookmarks with account, PEP in RAM only, offline messages until first client connects | typical = with account, MAM/files for a given amount of time
[11:42:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm checking usernames against patterns
[11:42:28] <jonasw> Ge0rG, right
[11:42:42] <jonasw> I was thinking about storage only, you were (rightfully so) thinking about processing
[11:43:14] <pep.> (brb, 1 minute)
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[11:44:10] <winfried> Ge0rG: I like that list
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[11:44:16] <Ge0rG> - server logs: minimal = no logs | typical = some days / weeks of logrotate, maybe with IP addresses / message metadata.
I'm storing debug logs for two weeks plus additional spam detection logs
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[11:44:45] <Ge0rG> addenum for user metadata/typical: IP address of registration / of last login
[11:44:49] <Ge0rG> storage of ^
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[11:45:05] <winfried> and I nothing that is disproportional or outside reasonable user expectation
[11:45:06] <Ge0rG> Somebody should wifiky that. Or put it into a proper table
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[11:46:00] <winfried> Ge0rG: our notekeeper is afk ;-)
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[11:46:27] <Ge0rG> Sorry, I've vastly exceeded my timebox for this conference, and I need to catch up. I'm semi-AFK now while you figure out the legal grounds beyond R49
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[11:47:29] <pep.> !
[11:48:35] <pep.> I'm also usually storing debug logs on the server, and rotating them
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[11:48:48] <winfried> lets see where we are now, I have to leave in 20 minutes too
[11:49:06] <winfried> we have come quite far with the c2s part of Q1.1
[11:49:21] <pep.> Yeah, this last bit was d)
[11:49:26] <pep.> For C2S
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[11:50:06] <winfried> still have the tough issue of s2s (federation) open
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[11:50:44] <pep.> Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some server provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks
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[11:50:51] <pep.> Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some servers provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks
[11:50:57] <Ge0rG> winfried: I have some information on federation, but I think we should make a follow up appointment
[11:51:05] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
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[11:51:19] <pep.> Agreed for the follow-up, I think we can summarize quickly and call it a day
[11:51:44] <pep.> There's already quite a lot of stuff to digest
[11:51:59] <Ge0rG> pep.: you volunteered to create a page on the wiki with the content table, I've heard... 😀
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[11:52:05] <pep.> heh
[11:53:33] <winfried> pep.: I can help building the wiki page
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[11:54:14] <winfried> can we set a new date?
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[11:54:23] <Ge0rG> winfried: yes please
[11:54:49] <pep.> This week? Next week? How quick do you want to figure this out
[11:55:14] <Ge0rG> This week, some day, same time
[11:55:25] <winfried> pep.: I prefer a short, compact, traject
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[11:55:39] <pep.> +2 days? (wed)
[11:55:51] <winfried> pep.: works for me
[11:55:56] <Ge0rG> WFM
[11:55:59] <pep.> jonasw,
[11:56:43] <pep.> I'll try to send minutes soon
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[11:56:54] <winfried> pep.: great, thanks a lot
[11:57:03] <Ge0rG> pep.: yay!
[11:57:09] <jonasw> wednesday doesn’t work for me
[11:57:17] <jonasw> sorry, I was distracted
[11:57:19] <pep.> +3 days? +4 doesn't work for me
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[11:57:37] <jonasw> I can’t make reliable statements about any day after wednesday until next weeks thursday
[11:57:47] <Ge0rG> Friday is so temptingly empty on the calendar...
[11:57:49] <jonasw> so the closest thing which would work would be tomorrow, ohterwise it’ll be best-effort on my side.
[11:58:12] <winfried> tomorrow works for me
[11:58:17] <pep.> I can do +4 but after 13CET. I can do +1 yes
[11:58:20] <Ge0rG> WFM too
[11:58:24] <jonasw> okay
[11:58:28] <pep.> ok, +1 day, 12CET
[11:58:35] <jonasw> 12:15 CEST would be easier for me
[11:58:42] <jonasw> (as I learnt today)
[11:58:42] <pep.> ok, 12:15CET.
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[11:58:45] <jonasw> CEST please
[11:58:46] <winfried> +1
[11:58:50] <jonasw> not CET.
[11:58:55] <jonasw> (like today)
[11:58:56] <pep.> Ah, oh
[11:58:57] <pep.> DST.
[11:58:59] <Ge0rG> pep.: CET will be again in half a year
[11:58:59] <jonasw> yeah.
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[11:59:15] <pep.> Cool, +1 day 12:15CEST then.
[11:59:17] <pep.> *bang*
[11:59:21] <jonasw> thank you
[11:59:28] *winfried applauses
[11:59:45] <Ge0rG> Thank *you*!
[12:00:04] <winfried> nice work guys!
[12:00:14] <jonasw> obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1883/
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[12:00:18] <pep.> Wait so what time is now now in CEST land
[12:00:27] <Ge0rG> pep.: CEST
[12:00:27] <winfried> 14:00
[12:00:34] <Zash> > 14:00:18 pep.> Wait so what time is now now in CEST land
[12:00:39] <pep.> cool
[12:00:50] <pep.> is it*
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[12:01:42] <pep.> jonasw, :D
[12:02:35] <winfried> yeah, had a laugh on that one too... though I like the idea of california drifting of the mainland :-P
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[12:13:10] <Seve/SouL> Was this meeting announced somewhere? I think I missed some information on this, didn't know this was going to happen
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[12:13:59] <winfried> Seve/SouL: no, we just made the appointmet in this muc after last boardmeeting
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[12:14:15] <winfried> Seve/SouL: do you want to be involved?
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[12:25:06] <Seve/SouL> Thank you winfried, it's not like I can help on this topic :)
Just wondering if I was missing important events.
Do not worry, thank you very much :)
[12:26:30] <jonasw> It *should* have been announced on members@
[12:26:37] <jonasw> in the board meeting minutes
[12:26:42] <jonasw> but apparently the minutes haven’t been sent yet
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[12:38:19] <pep.> btw, anybody knows where I can find more info about the derogation mentioned in https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-13/
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[12:40:13] <jonasw> pep., https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/ 30.5
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[12:44:57] <pep.> jonasw, thanks
[12:45:11] <pep.> Now I'm not sure most services will fall under that derogation though.
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[12:45:51] <pep.> "[..] unless [..] the processing is not occasional"
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[12:48:50] <pep.> Ok I'll keep that for next time
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[13:01:29] <pep.> > jonasw> some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof
What did you mean with "with proof"?
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[13:02:11] <Zash> > 2. This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data:
> (c) by a natural person in the course of a purely personal or household activity;
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[13:02:24] <Zash> How does that relate to self-hosting?
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[13:04:17] <pep.> Yeah I was wondering as well. Will add that to the questions. I guess that's good when you do it for yourself, or with people that also have access to the machine and take care of it (xmpp service)? And doesn't qualify if you start giving accounts to people who don't?
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[13:07:24] <jonasw> pep., you probably need proof for consent
[13:07:47] <Zash> Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet?
[13:08:15] <Ge0rG> Zash: [ ] I accept that you'll bend me over and take my virgi^W data
[13:08:39] <jonasw> my virginia drivers license? no way!
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[13:11:50] <winfried> Self hosting is an interesting case too!
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[13:12:33] <Ge0rG> winfried: self-hosting for yourself or for others?
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[13:14:21] <winfried> > Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet?
Yes, there are quite clear cut rules for, technically not too complicated in matter of facts, de hardest part is asking the right question...
[13:15:47] <moparisthebest> that's been solved a long time, you just pop up a 15,000 word EULA asking for everything in a tiny window and an 'Accept' button right?
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[13:18:04] <winfried> Ge0rG: both are interesting! Though when it among a collective of friends or family it will probably be the same case, but good to check
[13:20:13] <winfried> moparisthebest: that one has never been valid in the netherlands, if you can't download it in plain text or PDF, it was not legal and standard Dutch law applies!
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[13:20:45] <moparisthebest> ctrl+c/ctrl+v downloaded in plain text and therefore legal
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[13:23:19] <Ge0rG> reminds me of the first generation of Facebook export, where you got a 500 page PDF file containing all your data.
[13:24:12] <winfried> moparisthebest: nope, not valid here 😃
[13:26:24] <edhelas> Ge0rG you can add &exportformat=xml-xmpp to the FB export URL
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[13:28:09] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I can't.
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[13:28:22] <Ge0rG> edhelas: because I don't have a Facebook account, I will never know what Facebook logs about me.
[13:28:45] <edhelas> time to subscribe!
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[13:29:04] <Zash> The mysterious Shadow Ge0rG
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[13:30:47] <flow> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-05#section-5.2.6
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[13:31:09] <flow> did the authors of this reach out to "us" (i.e. the xmpp community)?
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[13:33:46] <Zash> -rfc 8280
[13:33:48] <Bunneh> Zash: Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations.
N. ten Oever, C. Cath. October 2017. (Status: INFORMATIONAL)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280
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[13:35:15] <Zash> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280#section-5.2.3.4
[13:35:33] <edhelas> https://takeout.google.com/
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[13:36:56] <Zash> Wait what
[13:37:17] <Zash> > While the protocol does not specify that the resource must be exposed by the client's server to remote users, in practice this has become the default behavior.
[13:37:45] <Zash> Well I suppose you can do without presence, but uh
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[13:40:17] <daniel> Wait. So telling your contacts that you are available is a bad thing now?
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[13:41:02] <Zash> flow: I'm not sure I immediately associate any of the authors or thanked people to XMPP
[13:41:08] <Ge0rG> daniel: doesn't your client show a GDPR disclaimer before you accept a subscription?
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[13:42:15] <daniel> The death of pars
[13:42:19] <Ge0rG> j.o is still down.
[13:42:30] <Zash> -ping jabber.org
[13:42:35] <Bunneh> Zash: Pong from jabber.org in 4.463 seconds
[13:42:42] <Ge0rG> What? Why?
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[13:43:01] <Ge0rG> Oh, poezio won't auto-rejoin on its own. Sorry.
[13:43:02] <Zash> Because IPv6
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[13:43:23] <Zash> Only Legacy IP is affected.
[13:43:52] <Ge0rG> Zash: s2s IPv6 failed today as well. I blame prosody
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[13:45:34] <Ge0rG> | -> conference.jabber.org [s2sout56531a7fbce0] (authenticated) (encrypted) (IPv6)
| <- conference.jabber.org [s2sin5653218deb10] (authenticated) (encrypted)
[13:45:40] <Ge0rG> There is an interesting discrepancy.
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[13:47:15] <moparisthebest> firewall is blocking incoming ipv4 but not outgoing ipv4
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[13:49:55] <Zash> DoS protection or something?
[13:50:24] <Ge0rG> DoS-by-DoS-protection.
[13:51:31] <intosi> No, firewall blocks ipv4 the main address, both ingress and egress.
[13:51:41] <intosi> I added temp a secondary IP.
[13:52:08] <Ge0rG> Ah, that also explains why it didn't work at all in the beginning.
[13:52:16] <Ge0rG> I suppose the fallback to IPv6 egress didn't happen?
[13:52:39] <intosi> It kinda did, but not entirely.
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[13:55:04] <Ge0rG> We really need better debugging tools. Something like a dynamic log where we can easily filter by JID
[13:55:33] <Ge0rG> Maybe I need to dump all my prosody logs into something like kibana or elasticsearch.
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[13:56:15] <MattJ> I was looking into elasticsearch for MAM...
[13:56:27] <MattJ> I think it's overkill though
[13:56:39] <Ge0rG> MattJ: not for MAM, for log analysis
[13:56:58] <MattJ> I know, my message was semi-unrelated
[13:57:13] <Kev> I put my logs into elasticsearch for a while and didn't find any use for it so stopped.
[13:57:29] <Ge0rG> it would be great to have a mod_log_json which would dump structured records of each event via some socket interface
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[13:57:54] <Zash> Was dog-something related to logs, or just stats?
[13:58:04] <Ge0rG> Kev: yesterday I sent a message to a MUC on my server from my mobile client, and it was rejected. As I don't have logs from the mobile, there is no way to find out what happened now.
[13:58:22] <MattJ> Zash, Datadog added log support recently (it might still be in beta, not sure)
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[13:58:49] <Kev> Ge0rG: Me not finding a use for something and it not being useful aren't quite the same thing. Despite me obviously being the center of the world.
[13:59:28] <Ge0rG> Kev: let me remind you of H2G2.
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[14:45:27] <Maranda> H2G2
[14:45:35] <Maranda> 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔
[14:45:51] <Ge0rG> -EEMOJIOVERFLOW
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[14:46:14] <edhelas> let's remove emojis support from XMPP ;-)
[14:46:26] <Ge0rG> let's remove Maranda support from xsf@ :PP
[14:46:28] <Zash> ASCII-only
[14:46:29] <intosi> stty -emoji ?
[14:46:58] <Maranda> -E_STOPUSINGCONSOLECLI_PROBLEM_SOLVED
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[14:47:07] <Maranda> :P
[14:47:14] <edhelas> with XHTML-IM I can send images to all the XMPP clients, so ASCII-only will do
[14:47:25] <Ge0rG> My console has a perfect two-way mapping of Unicode Emoji to ASCII. It only ever failed on foo:iq:bar
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[15:09:02] <Maranda> Ge0rG, and male emojis *coughs*
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[15:09:11] *Maranda has good memory.
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[15:09:22] *Maranda ... for now :P
[15:10:10] <pep.> Zash, can you reply to the minutes I just sent for your question earlier?
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[15:10:36] <pep.> Under Q1.1.a I guess
[15:10:47] <pep.> (re personal/household activity)
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[15:21:36] <Ge0rG> Are <stanza-id> elements mandatory in MUC history playback on a MAM-enabled MUC?
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[15:22:49] <Zash> Please wait for food coma to subside
[15:23:01] <Zash> pep.: Please wait for food coma to subside
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[15:23:21] <Ge0rG> pep.: to the time machine! 😁
> Date of Next: 2018/03/17
[15:23:28] <pep.> ah merde
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[15:23:46] <Ge0rG> pep.: let me read the whole thing before you send out an update :D
[15:24:06] <pep.> k
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[15:26:25] <pep.> We do cover c) with some stuff in b), I guess I could have split that
[15:26:30] <Ge0rG> pep.: okay, everything else is fine with me :)
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[15:26:43] <Ge0rG> pep.: thanks for taking minutes, and it's nice to see the conscise form of the discussion
[15:26:54] <pep.> :)
[15:27:13] <Ge0rG> pep.: maybe members@ is not the right venue, though
[15:27:52] <jonasw> I feel it is the righter venue than standards@
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[15:28:36] <pep.> Yeah I was wondering, I'm not sure
[15:28:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what do you feel is the most rightest one?
[15:29:01] <pep.> But I don't think it should be in standards. if any I would have put that in operators as well maybe
[15:29:04] <jonasw> I think members@ is a good start for now
[15:29:11] <jonasw> we might want to cross-post to operators@ at some point.
[15:29:28] <pep.> :)
[15:30:17] <jonasw> pep., hmm, now that I think of it, getting people from operators@ on board could be a good idea
[15:30:29] <jonasw> pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed dat?
[15:30:34] <jonasw> pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed date? maybe someone will show up.
[15:30:38] <pep.> Sure
[15:30:44] <Zash> Phew
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[15:42:15] <Ge0rG> Zash: you are the one with the conversion magic skills. I'm looking for a way to convert https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid/ into something I can read on a mobile device
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[15:43:12] <Zash> Ge0rG: How is the HTML?
[15:43:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, xml2rfc --raw?
[15:43:29] <Ge0rG> Zash: it sucks.
[15:43:50] <Ge0rG> It's like ASCII text, but with added references.
[15:43:51] <Zash> And the text/plain?
[15:43:57] <Zash> Hm
[15:43:57] <jonasw> hm, --raw isn’t great
[15:44:12] <Zash> xml2rfc had a better html output when I tried it the other day
[15:44:21] <Ge0rG> I want something like epub, where the text reflow is controlled by the client UI in accordance with my font settings and viewport size.
[15:44:38] <MattJ> It has ASCII diagrams in it
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[15:44:50] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I can live with horizontal scrolling on those.
[15:45:09] <Zash> Ge0rG: How is this on your device? https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html
[15:45:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, xml2rfc --html
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[15:45:30] <Zash> That's (I think) what you get from `xml2rfc --html`
[15:45:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-05.html example
[15:45:51] <jonasw> the width is set dynamically
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[15:45:56] <jonasw> (it is just a max-width)
[15:45:57] <Ge0rG> https://upload.yax.im/upload/2D5IcQiw14tuMVQa/Screenshot_20180326-174545.png
[15:45:58] <jonasw> which is good
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[15:47:01] <MattJ> "Using the XMPP publish-subscribe extension [XEP-0030],"
[15:47:14] <Ge0rG> jonasw: your rendering sets the width to 75% of my screen, but at least I can zoom in the other 25%, making the size almost bearable
[15:47:17] <jonasw> m(
[15:47:22] <jonasw> I tried it on my device
[15:47:23] <jonasw> stupid
[15:47:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, interestingly, the ctrl+shift+m thing on firefox which is supposed to emulate mobile devices does it better than the actual mobile firefox.
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[15:48:42] <Ge0rG> Really, can't we just have epub/mobi? With HTML, browser vendors haven't figured out to remember the screen position I stopped reading at. In 2018. It's a shame.
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[15:48:46] <Ge0rG> Almost as bad as XMPP.
[15:49:15] <pep.> Ge0rG, they do? don't they?
[15:49:23] <pep.> FF does that for me
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[15:49:38] <jonasw> Ge0rG, reload mine
[15:49:38] <Ge0rG> pep.: sometimes they do, but as soon as they have to rerender the page, all bets are off
[15:49:56] <jonasw> oh reader mode actually works fine
[15:49:58] <jonasw> on that rendering
[15:50:01] <jonasw> so maybe just use that
[15:50:10] <jonasw> meh,e xcept for the ascii diagrams of course
[15:50:11] <Ge0rG> The Debian man page for xml2rfc is awesome as well:
> The xml2rfc script requires python 2, with a version of 2.6 or higher. Can't proceed, quitting.
[15:50:34] <Zash> Can haz xml2rfc2epub ?
[15:50:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, re-try my rendering. you have to zoom in because of the diagrams, but otherwise it should be fine
[15:51:25] <moparisthebest> I've pretty much given in to the fact that I'll always be required to have python 2 and 3 on every computer forever
[15:51:33] <Zash> Ge0rG: pandoc can turn html into epub, but it's usually kinda messy
[15:52:03] <jonasw> it’s xml2rfc with <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1" /> added
[15:52:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: how do I do "Reader mode" on mobile FF?
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[15:52:37] <jonasw> it’s next to the address bar
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[15:53:05] <Zash> gah, forgot to enter my email password
[15:53:08] <Ge0rG> Ah. Thanks. It even supports changing the font size. Almost awesome.
[15:53:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yeah, aside from the ascii art diagrams :(
[15:53:29] <Ge0rG> But still not epub. I don't trust it to remember my reading position over the next OOM kill.
[15:53:36] <jonasw> it won’t probably
[15:53:45] <Zash> Whoever thought having the same keybinding for "back" and "quit" in mutt ...
[15:53:49] <jonasw> you should’ve said that at the beginning, Ge0rG
[15:53:50] <jonasw> :(
[15:53:50] <Ge0rG> And it's grey on grey.
[15:53:56] <jonasw> it’s black on white here
[15:54:02] <Zash> Ge0rG: pandoc blah.html -o blah.epub ?
[15:54:23] <Zash> or -s -o b blah.markdown and tweak it a bit then -o epub
[15:54:34] <Zash> Basically how I read blags these days
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[15:55:29] <Ge0rG> Okay, epub has great text rendering, but the ASCII diagrams are unusable :D
[15:55:34] <Ge0rG> Thanks everyone.
[15:56:10] <Ge0rG> jonasw: FF reader mode is light-grey on dark-grey. I have no idea who thought that's a good idea.
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[15:56:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, switch the color scheme
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[15:56:57] <jonasw> it defaults to auto
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[15:57:02] <jonasw> maybe something is weird on your device
[15:57:06] <jonasw> (it’s in the same menu as the font size)
[15:57:19] <Ge0rG> jonasw: mine is "dark", and that's a low-contrast theme.
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[15:57:29] <jonasw> switch to light.
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[15:57:54] <Ge0rG> it's better contrast, but I actually wanted a dark theme.
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[15:58:12] <Ge0rG> okay, my FBReader might be a bit extreme, 50% red on 100% black
[15:58:16] <Maranda> Infamous "Disco Pub(Sub)" xep
[15:58:24] <Ge0rG> but it's great for OLED display reading at night
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[15:59:02] <Maranda> Now I understand Yaxim's colour scheme reason.
[15:59:04] *Ge0rG &
[15:59:15] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I feel you might actually want redshift instead.
[15:59:21] <jonasw> (or LiveDisplay how LineageOS calls it)
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[15:59:30] <jonasw> the most amazing thing invented for displays
[15:59:43] <jonasw> (also known as f.lux or xflux)
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[16:49:37] <jonasw> pep., I forgot to say it, thanks a lot for taking the minutes :-)
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[16:50:53] <pep.> You're welcome
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[16:52:31] <pep.> I forgot to specify maybe we haven't treated S2S cases yet, and that's going to come later on. Will indicate that tomorrow
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[17:02:15] <Zash> How's jabber.org doing?
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[18:58:19] <jonasw> I’m joined in jdev@
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[18:58:30] <jonasw> so I assume I got lucky with ipv6?
[18:58:35] <jonasw> v4 still blackholes
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[19:15:13] <pep.> yay presence-less clients. andrey.g is spamming the room with join/parts :x
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[21:58:45] <moparisthebest> TLS 1.3 approved https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg17592.html
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[22:09:21] <pep.> Woohoo
[22:11:37] <Zash> So, does it hide SNI and ALPN or did the firewall vendors manage to block that?
[22:11:55] <Zash> Seemed to go back and forth a bit on that IIRC
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