Tuesday, March 27, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:10:03] *** Kev shows as "away"
[00:10:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
[00:11:16] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[00:11:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[00:20:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[00:42:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[01:13:46] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[01:30:03] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[01:47:48] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[01:47:55] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[02:04:05] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
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[02:07:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[02:08:42] *** Guus shows as "online"
[02:10:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[02:16:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[02:19:16] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[02:19:45] *** Guus has left the room
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[02:20:42] *** Lance shows as "online"
[02:21:14] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[02:21:20] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[02:21:44] *** alexis has left the room
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[02:27:21] *** tux has joined the room
[02:27:45] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[02:48:57] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[02:50:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[02:56:08] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[03:10:37] *** daniel has left the room
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[03:15:03] *** daniel has left the room
[03:15:29] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[03:15:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[03:20:17] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[03:21:01] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[03:26:38] *** alexis has left the room
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[03:27:59] *** daniel has left the room
[03:28:12] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:28:20] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:31:39] *** Guus has joined the room
[03:31:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:33:59] *** matlag shows as "online"
[03:36:53] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:36:57] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[03:39:07] *** Tobias has left the room
[03:39:12] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[03:39:17] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[03:39:27] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[03:39:33] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[03:39:53] <moparisthebest> I haven't read exactly but last I had heard that was out
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[03:48:49] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[04:23:31] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[04:23:38] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
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[04:31:18] *** Nekit shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[05:03:09] *** Nekit shows as "online"
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[05:18:02] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[05:19:42] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
[05:19:48] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[05:19:52] *** tim@boese-ban.de shows as "online"
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[05:54:47] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[05:58:44] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[05:58:47] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[05:59:53] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[06:06:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[06:21:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[06:30:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[06:30:46] *** Zash shows as "online"
[06:32:23] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[06:32:31] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[06:36:11] *** Guus shows as "online"
[06:36:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[06:38:43] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[06:39:05] <Williams W> ?
[06:39:10] <Williams W> hello
[06:39:21] *** Williams W has left the room
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[06:40:30] <Williams W> ?
[06:40:32] <Williams W> ?
[06:40:45] *** Guus has left the room
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[06:41:27] <flow> Williams W, hi
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[06:42:22] <Williams W> ?
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[06:46:00] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[06:49:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[06:53:23] *** Seve/SouL shows as "online"
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[07:00:27] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:03:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[07:10:27] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:10:38] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[07:10:45] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[07:16:25] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[07:17:58] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:22:12] *** xnyhps shows as "online"
[07:24:09] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:27:49] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[07:36:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:37:58] *** xnyhps shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[07:38:28] *** winfried has joined the room
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[07:41:24] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[07:45:32] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Hataraite imasu (работаю)"
[07:45:41] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[07:46:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[07:53:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[07:59:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:01:32] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[08:03:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:03:10] *** Williams W shows as "away" and his status message is "离开"
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[08:08:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[08:17:59] *** Williams W shows as "away" and his status message is "离开"
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[08:18:07] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[08:21:25] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[08:21:37] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[09:01:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[09:04:17] *** nyco shows as "online"
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[09:06:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[09:07:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[10:06:35] <pep.> GDPR thing in 10min
[10:08:16] <winfried> (y)
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[10:09:18] <Ge0rG> winfried: do you happen to be using an old Gajim version?
[10:09:26] <jonasw> .
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[10:09:40] <winfried> Ge0rG: nope, Psi+
[10:09:45] <jonasw> can we discuss the time frame for this meeting real quick?
[10:09:51] <winfried> because of my (y)
[10:09:53] <jonasw> I allocated an hour, would be happy with less too, more would be an issue.
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[10:10:23] <Ge0rG> yeah, we should attemt to get through this quickly, I'm 2hr over the time budget already.
[10:10:58] <winfried> good, I will aim for a close at 13:15 at max
[10:11:06] <winfried> (CEST)
[10:11:27] <Williams W> ```
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[10:12:26] <Williams W> 我想知道一个问题,tor加密下这样的对话被破解的几率有没有%0.1?
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[10:12:31] <winfried> pep.: are you there?
[10:12:36] <jonasw> .
[10:12:41] <pep.> !
[10:12:58] <winfried> nice aditions from peter btw
[10:13:03] <jonasw> yeah
[10:13:13] <winfried> I will try to setup a wiki page today
[10:13:21] <winfried> (beside my other work)
[10:13:23] <pep.> I'll continue with the minutes
[10:13:24] <jonasw> pep., will you be taking minutes again? :)
[10:13:26] <jonasw> thanks :)
[10:13:30] <winfried> great!
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[10:14:09] <winfried> think it is best to discuss federation right away now
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[10:14:26] <jonasw> ok
[10:14:30] <pep.> Q1)
1. What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network?
2. .. Jabber server operators?
3. .. what can/should do the XSF with that?
Q2) What consequences does the GDPR has for the XSF running Jabber server?
Q3) What consequences does the GDPR has for the work processes of the XSF itself (membership, voting, wiki etc)?
[10:14:48] <Ge0rG> I think we didn't cover d-f of Q1.1 yet?
[10:15:03] <pep.> d-f?
[10:15:15] <Ge0rG> pep.: from yesterday's list of aspects
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[10:15:27] <Kev> I'd suggest (and I don't really want to get involved in this) that Q2 and Q3 are much more urgently important for the XSF than Q1.
[10:15:50] <pep.> Both of them depend on Q1
[10:15:59] <pep.> Well, Q2 at lesat
[10:16:05] <winfried> yep
[10:16:14] <pep.> Well, Q2 at least
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[10:16:50] <winfried> Ge0rG: what is on your list about Q1.1?
[10:16:54] <Ge0rG> a is it in the GDPR jurisdiction, what data is
b what data is processed
c what processing is done
d what ground does the processing have
e possible consequences

[10:17:02] <Ge0rG> Maybe there was no f.
[10:17:08] <pep.> no f
[10:17:12] <jonasw> no f
[10:17:36] <winfried> we didn't fully cover grounds for c2s, true
[10:18:05] <Ge0rG> I'd like to cover the grounds before moving on with the other Qs
[10:18:14] <winfried> Ge0rG: good
[10:18:16] <Ge0rG> the potential consequences are vague at best anyway.
[10:18:34] <Ge0rG> vaguely scary.
[10:18:37] <winfried> Ge0rG: Yes, it is the GDPR ;-)
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[10:19:26] <Ge0rG> I'd argue that if the user sends content via our server, they are giving implicit consent for us to process it.
[10:19:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m so sure this is false.
[10:20:12] <jonasw> the user could expect e.g. the server to forward it, but not to store it in MAM
[10:20:18] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd argue that either Art 6 §1 or §2 apply.
[10:20:18] <jonasw> or store it for less time
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[10:20:38] <Ge0rG> no, way. §1 a or b.
[10:20:51] <jonasw> consent needs to be explicit
[10:20:58] <jonasw> (b) may very well apply
[10:21:02] <winfried> I would vote for 6.1b
[10:21:11] <jonasw> but that is overridden by 9.1
[10:21:22] <jonasw> and after Peters comments I think that 9.1 very much applies to messages.
[10:21:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not sure about that.
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[10:22:12] <Ge0rG> maybe this is actually something to ask a lawyer about
[10:22:13] <jonasw> okay, so maybe let’s write that down as something somebody should definitely consult a lawyer on.
[10:22:16] <jonasw> ha
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[10:22:45] <pep.> hmm, I don't see how 9.1 fits in that. I'll add a TODO
[10:23:12] <Ge0rG> LQ1: does 9.1 automatically apply to all (not e2ee encrypted) user-sent content, or only if we are analyzing it for profiling/other purposes?
[10:23:26] <jonasw> pep., in my mind, most of the GDPR handles general personal data, and 9.1 adds overrides for a certain type of personal data and prohibits all use except that outlined in 9.2
[10:24:12] <winfried> look at 9.2e...
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[10:24:27] <jonasw> winfried, I’d argue that sending a message to another user is "not making it public"
[10:24:36] <winfried> hmmm, but the xmpp server(operator) is third party...
[10:24:49] <jonasw> winfried, I’d argue that sending a message to another user is not "making it public"
[10:25:28] <winfried> pep., can you note this as subject for further consulting?
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[10:25:57] <pep.> hmm, let me see if I get this
[10:26:05] <pep.> what is "this" in your sentence
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[10:27:37] <jonasw> LQ1?
[10:27:45] <pep.> Ah, yes it's aded already
[10:27:49] <pep.> Ah, yes it's added already
[10:28:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: lawyer-question
[10:28:11] <pep.> This is for Q1.1.a then?
[10:28:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I am aware.
[10:28:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I made a suggestion for what winfried might be talking about :)
[10:28:35] <pep.> :)
[10:28:41] <Ge0rG> jonasw: ah, that wasn't clear to me. sorry
[10:28:42] <pep.> Next?
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[10:28:56] <winfried> Ok: art 6.1 is explicit permission, art 6.2 is implicit permission. Article 9.1 overrides article 6 and sets its grounds in article 9.2. So if the messages are of the categories in 9.1, then we must go for explicit permission from 9.2a, otherwise we can do 6.2
[10:29:01] <Ge0rG> we need to cover d) for all data types
[10:29:15] <winfried> Ge0rG: exact
[10:29:47] <Ge0rG> server logs are the easiest thing.
[10:29:54] <Ge0rG> we have those under R49
[10:30:06] <winfried> so the question for a lawyer is: are message bodies 9.1 or not?
[10:30:11] <jonasw> winfried, yes.
[10:30:26] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, agree with logs
[10:30:41] <Ge0rG> if we consider the usage of an XMPP server as a contract between the user and the server operator = controller, 6.1b should apply to most things
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[10:30:58] <jonasw> ... except that it should be clearly stated what happens, right?
[10:31:56] <Ge0rG> credentials are required, IP addresses might be argued under R49, timestamps / presence timestamps are complicated.
[10:32:21] <jonasw> presence timestamps shouldn’t be 9.1 at least
[10:32:38] <Ge0rG> presence timestamps are probably covered by user's consent when they accept a subscription
[10:32:53] <jonasw> I have the feeling you’re lax with consent.
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[10:33:32] <jonasw> maybe it’s just me, but I think consent can’t be established without the user being informed. so unless we inform the user actively what "add a contact" means regarding metadata, we can’t talk about consent here.
[10:33:48] <pep.> I also feel that needs to be specified in EULA of some sort
[10:33:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw:
> any freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject's wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her
[10:34:14] <pep.> Ge0rG, that means they understand the protocol though, right?
[10:34:16] <jonasw> > informed
[10:35:29] <Ge0rG> So XMPP clients need to show a warning in the add-contact dialog, that metadata will be published to their new contact?
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[10:35:39] <jonasw> possibly
[10:35:48] <winfried> Isn't that for permission according to 6.1?
[10:35:53] <pep.> I would say this needs to be specified when signing in for an account instead?
[10:36:05] <jonasw> pep., that would work too
[10:36:10] <jonasw> probably better
[10:36:15] <jonasw> because this takes the load off clients
[10:36:18] <pep.> yes
[10:36:26] <jonasw> (aside from that they need to support the EULA XEPρ
[10:36:28] <jonasw> (aside from that they need to support the EULA XEP)
[10:36:41] <pep.> yes, that still needs figuring out
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[10:37:02] <winfried> I think 13.1 applies here
[10:38:03] <Ge0rG> winfried: is 13.1 in addition to asking for consent?
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[10:38:26] <Ge0rG> or is it possible to have a published data collection policy and assume implicit consent from users?
[10:38:48] <jonasw> 13.1 feels weird
[10:38:50] <winfried> the last
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[10:39:18] <pep.> Ge0rG, [x] I have read the conditions and agree
[10:39:21] <jonasw> I think i need an epub of that thing and read it on the trains
[10:39:33] <winfried> btw: all of 13 is applicable
[10:39:57] <winfried> 13.4 is also interesting ;-)
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[10:40:52] <jonasw> winfried, right
[10:41:09] <pep.> So that means EULA should do
[10:41:33] <jonasw> I think sot oo
[10:41:39] <winfried> IF we can do it under 6.2
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[10:42:26] <Ge0rG> I'd argue that we don't need explicit consent for 6.2, and if we ask for explicit consent, we can tell the user not to upload 9.1 relevant data ;)
[10:42:47] <jonasw> Ge0rG, "so, hey, we’ve got an IM system here. but don’t use it for private communications."
[10:42:55] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes
[10:42:59] <jonasw> great…
[10:43:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: this is clearly legalese blame shifting.
[10:43:18] <pep.> Ge0rG, I feel 9.1 applies only if we do more than storage on the data, but yeah that's LQ1, we'll see
[10:43:18] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but if we ask for consent, why not ask for consent for 9.1 data, too?
[10:43:25] <jonasw> pep., storage IS processing
[10:43:29] <pep.> I know
[10:43:30] <winfried> I would say: if we go for consent, we should go for consent as in 9.2, so 9.1 is covered
[10:43:34] <pep.> That's why I specified
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[10:43:54] <jonasw> winfried, +1
[10:43:55] <pep.> Ah, hmm
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[10:44:27] <pep.> Ok so 9.1 is meh, and we should probably cover ourselves, ask for consent as well
[10:44:32] <jonasw> yes
[10:44:46] <jonasw> but also the risk things Peter mentioned
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[10:45:10] <pep.> let me read that, one sec
[10:45:14] <jonasw> specifically:
> It could be argued that storing very sensitive personal information, albeit for a short time, unencrypted, visible to anyone with access to the backend server (and perhaps more), does not constitute proportional data protection measure, knowing how sensitive the information can be in some cases. It could therefore also be argued, that the processing “reveals” this information to unauthorized persons, by the way it is implemented. It could therefore be argued, that such processing is contrary to what is required by article 9.
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[10:45:44] <jonasw> his suggestions boil down to exactly what Ge0rG said
[10:45:44] <winfried> jonasw: yes, but at how many servers is it easy for the operator to read MAM archives or view their rosters and bookmarks?
[10:46:02] <jonasw> winfried, ssh myserver; cat /var/log/prosody/archive/**/*
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[10:46:12] <jonasw> winfried, ssh myserver; cat /var/lib/prosody/archive/**/*
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[10:46:24] <Kev> winfried: All, I'd assume.
[10:46:26] <jonasw> similarly for bookmarks and roster
[10:46:28] <jonasw> it’s trivial
[10:46:36] <pep.> Also, in any case, the hosting provider will have access to the data
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[10:46:50] <jonasw> yes, but that surely is covered somehow.
[10:47:08] <jonasw> probably something about "processor"
[10:47:18] <Ge0rG> We need to do encryption!11
[10:47:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yes, that seems to be the safest course of action
[10:47:33] <winfried> jonasw: yes, controller / processor thing
[10:47:35] <jonasw> e2ee everywhere
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[10:47:43] <pep.> Ge0rG, even with full-drive encryption, as long as the provider has access to the virtualization software..
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[10:47:50] <jonasw> pep., yes.
[10:48:06] <winfried> You can do technical protection and legal protection
[10:48:08] <Ge0rG> pep.: yes, but the checkmark is crossed.
[10:48:30] <pep.> hmm, I want to believe you
[10:48:44] <Ge0rG> Regulatory Compliance is a complicated thing.
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[10:48:51] <jonasw> i wanna burn something now
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[10:49:18] <winfried> jonasw: my 320p bible on the GDPR?
[10:49:18] <Ge0rG> okay, we are not moving forward.
[10:49:21] <pep.> Ok so, where are we for d) ?
[10:49:35] <pep.> With this big passage about 9.1 and consent
[10:49:40] <winfried> we have LQ1
[10:49:44] <Ge0rG> pep.: somewhere between 6.1a, 6.1b and 9.2
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[10:50:15] <winfried> and the question of privacy by design of storage at the server
[10:50:26] <Ge0rG> I'll ask my local GDPR expert as well, and maybe Peter can shed some light as well
[10:50:38] <Ge0rG> winfried: that's a technical question though.
[10:50:40] <pep.> Ge0rG, 9.2a specifically?
[10:50:53] <Ge0rG> pep.: "explicit consent"
[10:50:56] <pep.> yes
[10:51:26] <winfried> Ge0rG: but it may be a consequence that technical measure need to be taken :-(
[10:51:45] <jonasw> I’m pretty sure that we’ll need to take technical measures.
[10:52:00] <Ge0rG> we need to take technical measures anyway.
[10:52:07] <Ge0rG> even for 6.1a/b
[10:52:44] <winfried> Ge0rG: depending on the risk assesment, but looking at ubbers practices, yes...
[10:53:31] <Ge0rG> winfried: the exact amount of technical measures is subject to discussion.
[10:53:40] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes
[10:53:45] <Ge0rG> winfried: I think we can't cover that here.
[10:54:05] <Ge0rG> So I suggest we skip over "consequences" and follow to the next questions
[10:54:13] <Ge0rG> Or maybe we look at federation now
[10:54:14] <winfried> Ge0rG: not here, not now.
[10:54:46] <winfried> Ge0rG: we have got 20 minutes left, and need some time for discussing next steps/next appointments
[10:55:02] <winfried> so, lets say 10 minutes federation?
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[10:55:14] <Ge0rG> winfried: +1
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[10:55:37] <Ge0rG> we need to differentiate whether the other server is under GDPR as well or not.
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[10:56:04] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes and wether the server is making secondary use of the data or not
[10:56:04] <pep.> I'm sure it is, but how
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[10:56:17] <Ge0rG> By sending a message to somebody, a user clearly wants us to deliver that message to somebody.
[10:56:19] <jonasw> I somehow managed to kill my poezio
[10:56:33] <jonasw> Ge0rG, aren’t all servers under GPDR potentially?
[10:56:37] <pep.> jonasw, I'm sure I can do that blindfolded
[10:57:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, because they might receive data from entities from the EU
[10:57:23] <jonasw> 9.1 data even (if messages fall in that category)
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[10:57:26] <Ge0rG> So when we are the sending server, we just follow what the user asked for and we don't need to ensure the receiving server is GDPR compliant.
[10:57:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: they can block federation with the EU ;)
[10:57:53] <Ge0rG> my point is: our user gave us that message with the explicit request to deliver it to some other entity.
[10:58:08] <Ge0rG> that's what we do (plus local archive storage), and that's where our responsibility ends
[10:58:10] <pep.> Ge0rG, delivery is a thing, processing on the other side is another. Maybe we should look into transfer regulations?
[10:58:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but does the user also consent to have their message stored by the other entity?
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[10:58:26] <winfried> I think the line of reasoning is:
[10:58:53] <winfried> - transfer to an other controller is one possible processings to
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[10:59:26] <winfried> - it can be covered by the same concent as the other processings (LQ1)
[10:59:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that the receiving user giving consent is sufficient.
[10:59:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’d like to have that settled properly, though
[11:00:23] <winfried> - EXCEPT when the other server is making secondary use of the data (then at least 6.2 can't apply anymore)
[11:00:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the sender indicated that they want the message delivered
[11:00:41] <jonasw> Ge0rG, given that sharing phone contact info wiht WA is illegal in DE, I imagine that things might be worse with 9.1 data being stored without "proportional means of protection"
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[11:01:17] <winfried> jonasw: yes, that is the other issue: jurisdiction
[11:01:26] <jonasw> Ge0rG, in the WA case, the victim gave their phone number to the offender, which forwarded it to WA.
[11:01:29] <jonasw> I think this is a very similar case.
[11:01:40] <jonasw> but with more sensitive data
[11:02:04] <jonasw> but IANAL
[11:02:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't think it's the same.
[11:02:16] <jonasw> why not?
[11:02:19] <pep.> I think we need LQ2 here
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[11:02:35] <Ge0rG> jonasw: in this case, the victim sends the content to the offender via the evil server.
[11:03:01] <Ge0rG> I wonder how SMS/MMS processing is legally protected
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[11:03:11] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I had the same thought.
[11:03:24] <jonasw> but probably that’s not an issue because they don’t store data for that long
[11:03:33] <jonasw> only as long as needed to deliver
[11:03:36] <winfried> Ge0rG:SMS/MMS seperate telecom laws
[11:03:39] <jonasw> which is reasonable or something
[11:03:47] <pep.> jonasw, sure but then processing is done on the other side
[11:03:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, email would be more interesting
[11:03:58] <Ge0rG> winfried: how are we different from them? ;)
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[11:04:05] <Ge0rG> okay, I don't want to be required to do LE
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[11:04:11] <pep.> I agree with Ge0rG it's pretty similar
[11:04:35] <Ge0rG> email is surely very similar, but I can't find any info on email GDPR short of email marketing
[11:04:57] <pep.> Can we try and ask big providers see how they deal with it
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[11:05:09] <jonasw> could probably read googles new privacy policy?
[11:05:11] <pep.> Anybody knows one somewhat open to questions/collaboration?
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[11:05:14] <pep.> Right
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[11:05:58] <winfried> I feel we need to structure this part of the discussen better next time... but don't know how yet
[11:06:16] <pep.> Basically lots of thing here will rely on user consent
[11:06:38] <pep.> But to what extent can we use it we don't seem to agree
[11:06:58] <pep.> Or who needs to ask for it
[11:07:01] <winfried> but LQ2 may be: can (implicit) consent also apply to transfer to other controller by addres
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[11:07:34] <winfried> (needs a bit better formulation)
[11:07:37] <Ge0rG> I think that we can apply 6.1f ("processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party") for federation
[11:07:48] <pep.> winfried, what do you mean with "by address"?
[11:08:22] <Ge0rG> the third party is the remote user, and their interest is to be able to communicate
[11:08:36] <edhelas> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/27/open_source_takes_on_facebook/
[11:08:37] <Ge0rG> that should cover storage and delivery, but not profiling
[11:08:43] <winfried> when using @other.domain (xmpp & e-mail)
[11:09:01] <jonasw> Ge0rG, maybe chapter 5 applies?
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[11:09:19] <winfried> Ge0rG: no, I think that article is meant for other cases
[11:09:21] <jonasw> in the end, the other service is a "third party"
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[11:10:11] <winfried> Chapter 5 applies, and that is also ..... lets say, interesting
[11:10:31] <pep.> Where is chapter 5 again?
[11:10:37] <pep.> Ah
[11:10:41] <pep.> got it
[11:10:47] <winfried> art 44-50
[11:10:52] <jonasw> pep., you might want to bookmark this: https://gdpr-info.eu
[11:10:52] <pep.> Yes I think that falls under this
[11:10:58] <pep.> jonasw, yeah I have it opened
[11:11:23] <pep.> So I propose we all study chapter 5 for next time? :P
[11:11:27] <pep.> And we can sum up here
[11:11:31] <pep.> 5min to go
[11:11:37] <winfried> pep.: +1 ;-)
[11:11:44] <jonasw> from a quick glimpse, it’s not directly applicable to federation between two entities within GDPR jurisdiction
[11:11:48] <jonasw> but yeah
[11:12:09] <winfried> jonasw: yes, but federation is not limited to GDPR jurisdiction....
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[11:12:10] <jonasw> so for next, I won’t be available until thursday next week (5th of April) aside from best-effort
[11:12:11] <pep.> Date of next?
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[11:12:54] <jonasw> I suggest that we select a few dates from that thursday to the following monday and post them to the list
[11:12:57] <jonasw> maybe Peter can join at one of them
[11:13:08] <jonasw> does anyone know his timezone?
[11:13:12] <winfried> jonasw: +1
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[11:13:21] <Ge0rG> https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/legitimate-interest/ is interesting here, scroll down to "Recital 47"
[11:13:38] <pep.> jonasw, no idea about his tz
[11:14:30] <pep.> jonasw, let's say date of next: 5th April, 12:15CEST, and also ask on the ML
[11:14:44] <jonasw> I can’t make that specific time on that thursday
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[11:14:52] <jonasw> at least I can’t guarantee that
[11:14:56] <jonasw> 13:00CEST would probably work
[11:15:04] <pep.> works for me
[11:15:14] <jonasw> but if we assume that peter is more US based, later might be better
[11:15:15] <jonasw> but yeah
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[11:15:29] <jonasw> probably best to post that as a suggestion to the list and ask for suggestions if anyone wants to join
[11:16:06] <pep.> I would say decide of a date now, that we can move if we all agree. In the meantime we have a date.
[11:16:09] <winfried> on the 5th I have a meeting from 12:15 to 13:15 with appr. 1,5 hour offline time before and after
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[11:16:31] <pep.> is Apr. 6th ok then?
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[11:16:44] <jonasw> I can probably make 13:15 on apr. 6th
[11:16:53] <winfried> jonasw: #meetoo
[11:17:01] <pep.> Ok for me
[11:17:02] <jonasw> danger
[11:17:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ^
[11:17:11] <Ge0rG> I have no other appointments on 5th/6th, so whatever works
[11:17:22] <pep.> Ok, Apr. 6th 13:15CEST
[11:17:24] <pep.> *bang*
[11:17:28] <jonasw> \o/
[11:17:33] <jonasw> saved
[11:17:39] <winfried> thanks again guys!
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[12:33:52] <jonasw> I wonder how this plays with the GDPR:
[12:33:55] <jonasw> https://www.csoonline.com/article/3264658/privacy/microsoft-to-ban-offensive-language-from-skype-xbox-office-and-other-services.html
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[12:42:59] <pep.> jonasw, "EDIT: Except for EU citizen :-°"
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[12:43:19] <jonasw> hah
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[13:43:57] <pep.> jonasw, what article was peter referring to again? I cna't seem to find it ("proportional means of protection")
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[13:47:11] <pep.> Ah, he says article 9, and "revealing"
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[13:49:11] <pep.> hmm, ok that's why LQ1 then.
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[13:49:26] <pep.> That doesn't explain the part of our discussion about encryption
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[13:52:24] <Ge0rG> pep.: encryption is one of the mechanisms mandated to protect user data
[13:52:34] <pep.> I guess that's art 35
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[13:58:12] <pep.> https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/99730137003463631 they don't seem worried
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[14:00:03] <pep.> Anybody what goes into that audit log? http://dougbelshaw.com/blog/2018/01/31/social-network/
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[14:00:24] <pep.> (grep GDPR)
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[14:04:32] <moparisthebest> I wonder how far a non-EU citizen/service is required to go to ensure non-EU people use their service?
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[14:04:50] <moparisthebest> is the GDPR only enforceable if an EU citizen sues you?
[14:04:59] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I wish I knew at least that
[14:05:34] <pep.> anybody knows*
[14:05:41] <moparisthebest> if so, then everyone can just put up notices like "EU citizens are forbidden from using this service"
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[14:05:56] <moparisthebest> because they wouldn't have standing to sue you about GDPR stuff in court, because they violated your terms?
[14:06:05] <moparisthebest> at least, I think
[14:06:10] <jonasw> I have no idea
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[14:06:39] <pep.> I have a feeling I should prepend IANAL to any comment I make during our sessions
[14:07:09] <jonasw> pep., easy. /nick pep.> IANAL:
[14:07:13] <pep.> :D
[14:07:14] <moparisthebest> yea until we get a single lawyer in here ever, maybe a server plugin should do it automatically?
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[14:07:18] <pep.> jonasw, will do next time
[14:07:21] <jonasw> aww
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[14:07:25] <jonasw> the MUC won’t let you
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[14:07:36] <jonasw> moparisthebest, yeah, no
[14:07:38] <pep.> pff
[14:07:41] <jonasw> that might be a solution for you USians
[14:07:49] <jonasw> for certain definitions of "solution"
[14:08:00] <jonasw> or, wait, you aren’t talking about the "no EU citizens" thing anymore?
[14:08:09] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I think it's about targeting. If you have a european domain, support languages spoken here, etc.
[14:08:11] <moparisthebest> I mean't a server plugin should prepend IANAL to what everyone says :)
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[14:08:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, "support languages spoken here". english?
[14:08:29] <moparisthebest> what languages *aren't* spoken in EU ?
[14:08:35] <moparisthebest> I feel like that'd be the shorter list
[14:08:51] <Ge0rG> :P
[14:09:19] <pep.> :D
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[14:09:39] <pep.> You could state "Here we speak only en_US"
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[14:11:36] <moparisthebest> or maybe you limit the character set to ASCII
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[14:11:48] <moparisthebest> that would de-facto ban most of the EU
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[14:12:28] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: switch to IBM EBCDIC
[14:12:36] <jonasw> to ban the whole world?
[14:12:57] <Ge0rG> jonasw: there is no world beyond the US of A
[14:13:08] <jonasw> I forogt
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[14:13:54] <Ge0rG> I, for one, am proud to be an EU citizen, and to finally have legal remediation against Silicon Valley sucking up and reselling all my private data.
[14:14:41] <moparisthebest> except turns out it's the same kind of legal protection you had before
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[14:14:46] <moparisthebest> that is, to just not use the services
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[14:15:10] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I'm not using Facebook. I'm not using WhatsApp. And still they have data about me.
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[14:15:48] <jonasw> Ge0rG, +1
[14:16:06] <moparisthebest> not data you didn't share somehow, presumably
[14:16:17] <jonasw> moparisthebest, but did I share it intentionally?
[14:16:23] <moparisthebest> it's the #1 rule of the internet, put it on the internet, it's there forever
[14:16:30] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I didn’t put my phone number on the internet.
[14:16:34] <jonasw> yet, whatsapp has it most likely
[14:16:35] <moparisthebest> no laws are going to change that
[14:16:54] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: oh yes, our laws will change that.
[14:17:20] <moparisthebest> yea the law changes things, now you can't use open federated services
[14:17:22] <moparisthebest> good work
[14:17:27] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: but it depends on what you mean with "put it on the internet" - make it public? use some internet service? contact your friends?
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[14:20:17] <Ge0rG> related: https://twitter.com/iamdylancurran/status/977559925680467968
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[14:21:28] <Ge0rG> BTW, that the BigCorps are required to provide all the data they store about you is also based on EU regulations
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[14:27:51] <pep.> Ok so I have https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/eitMC7lM6yOU4kFtNf1Nag/gvYO8K5YdRtKg-b7hNLd7mEz/ Ge0rG jonasw winfried, can you have a quick look
[14:28:41] <jonasw> f*ck!
[14:28:44] <jonasw> I hate that noscript b ug
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[14:28:59] <jonasw> pfew, I was in luck. but still
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[14:31:24] <jonasw> pep., looks good to me
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[14:31:43] <pep.> Most of what we talked about today goes into Q1.1d
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[14:32:05] <pep.> There's this "Server logs: r49" line that's kind of sitting alone there, the rest is about consent :P
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[14:34:36] <winfried> pep.: nice!
[14:35:00] <pep.> jonasw, also I'd be inclined to say 9.1 only applies to "processing revealing [such information]", as peter suggests? But IANAL
[14:35:24] <jonasw> pep., peter argues that processing which stores the data in plaintext may reveal it to operators
[14:35:38] <pep.> Ah, in that sense
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[14:35:54] <jonasw> also, I think the recital is clear that the *data* reveals the information, not the processing
[14:36:00] <pep.> Well, so full-disk encryption is besides the point right?
[14:36:00] <jonasw> the legal text is ambiguous IMO
[14:36:04] <jonasw> in both translations oddly enough
[14:36:21] <jonasw> (it could be either the processing or the data which reveals info, in both en and de)
[14:36:24] <pep.> Because operators will most likely always have access to this information, except in the e2ee case
[14:36:32] <jonasw> pep., exactly.
[14:37:10] <pep.> Even in the e2ee case really, it's still possible, as not many people actually checks
[14:37:29] <pep.> That would be making significant effort though, for the operator, and could be caught as well
[14:37:30] <jonasw> that would require an additional action you normally wouldn’t do though
[14:38:09] <pep.> Security goes as far as one is wiling to apply it (and even then..)
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[14:39:45] <pep.> So I'm tempted to remove the full-disk encryption part in the minutes, and add a bit about e2ee
[14:39:56] <pep.> (Since it was my misunderstanding)
[14:40:18] <Ge0rG> pep.: "encryption" is just a control you "need" to checkmark.
[14:40:21] <jonasw> I think tehre was talk about both
[14:40:29] <pep.> Ge0rG, what encryption, where
[14:40:46] <pep.> jonasw, yeah, right
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[14:40:52] <Ge0rG> pep.: a secure service will deploy a combination of disk encryption, stream encryption, user data encryption and e2ee
[14:40:53] <jonasw> pep., in line 64, it was definitely about FDE
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[14:41:18] <jonasw> pep., maybe add a note about "ubiquitous E2EE would save us from 9.1"
[14:41:28] <pep.> I wish
[14:41:35] <pep.> Ge0rG, right
[14:41:56] <pep.> jonasw, here, done
[14:42:11] <jonasw> thanks
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[14:43:17] <pep.> Ok, sending that
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[14:43:29] <jonasw> thank you for that already :)
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[14:47:49] <pep.> Wow, the mails take quite some time to arrive
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[14:48:28] <Kev> It takes a while for all the racial profiling the server needs to do before sending them out.
[14:48:35] <pep.> I see
[14:48:44] <pep.> Makes sense
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[15:31:36] <moparisthebest> is there a reason the members mailing list is not linked from here: https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html
[15:31:55] <jonasw> moparisthebest, possibly because it’s only for members
[15:32:08] <moparisthebest> I was trying to give a link to the GDPR discussion to someone and had to manually construct it
[15:32:11] <jonasw> I don’t think you can subcsribe as non-member.
[15:32:26] <moparisthebest> jonasw, if that's true it's incorrectly configured to be public https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2018-March/thread.html
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[15:32:36] <pep.> https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo
[15:32:36] <jonasw> moparisthebest, maybe
[15:32:41] <moparisthebest> (I clicked on 'standards' then changed 'standards' in the url to 'members')
[15:32:44] <jonasw> iteam? (cc @ Kev, intosi) ^
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[15:32:45] <pep.> it's listed here
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[15:33:23] <moparisthebest> I personally don't see a reason for it to be private, I'd just like to see it listed next to the rest :)
[15:33:26] <Kev> What's the problem here? The list should be invite-only, public archives.
[15:33:35] <jonasw> Kev, then there’s no problem :)
[15:33:48] <moparisthebest> except it's not listed on https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html
[15:33:49] <jonasw> Kev, except htat maybe it should be moderated-by-default and free to subscribe, if the archives are public anyways.
[15:34:01] <Kev> I see no benefit to that.
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[15:34:12] <jonasw> Kev, ease of use
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[15:34:33] <Kev> It's easy to use for members, and that's all that matters here.
[15:34:36] <Ge0rG> I'm not even sure what the ML is *for*
[15:35:00] <jonasw> Kev, arguably, that discussion is interesting for non-members too.
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[15:35:10] <jonasw> but I don’t think that standards@ would be the right venue
[15:35:18] <jonasw> what would be the most appropriate list then?
[15:35:28] <Ge0rG> operators probably
[15:35:30] <pep.> Yeah I don't think either. Maybe _only_ operators, would be best
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[15:36:03] <Kev> I'd have thought if this is an XSF activity, members is appropriate, with CC to operators anything that will interest them.
[15:36:09] <moparisthebest> yea I was just linking other people for some feedback
[15:36:27] <moparisthebest> and it was super hard to find a link that I assumed would be on the mailing lists page that I assumed would list all mailing lists :)
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[15:44:12] <Neustradamus> Kev, intosi: it will be nice to have a ML for jabber.org service and updates on https://www.jabber.org/notices.html about problems like previously
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[15:48:26] <Neustradamus> http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/juser <-- not clear if it is for jabber.org service
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[16:10:28] <SamWhited> IETF folks that also idle here: are you aware of any SASL mechanisms similar to SCRAM (active or in development) that use Argon2 instead of PBKDF.2? I was going to use Argon2 on some passwords since it's the current OWASP recommendation, but there's a chance I'll want to use the same credentials with an XMPP server later (though not in a way that requires wide support, so it doesn't matter if it's still in draft or something).
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[16:12:03] <SamWhited> I assume a quick search would have revealed it if it was already a thing, but I figured there might be an I-D which tend to be harder to find.
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[16:12:30] <Zash> Not sure if I qualify, but I'm pretty sure you can swap out PBKDF2 for some other equivalent construct.
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[16:16:04] <SamWhited> In SCRAM you mean? I think it allows you to swap out the hash used in the HMAC, but not the key derivation function. Let me double check, it would be nice if I was mistaken.
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[16:16:40] <Zash> I do believe that the general construct still makes sense with a different key derivation function.
[16:17:06] <SamWhited> Oh yah, it does, but I'm hesitant to do something completely non-standard
[16:17:09] <jonasw> yeah, but it’s not standardised
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[16:17:41] <jonasw> SamWhited, cp scram-rfc.xml argon-scram-rfc.xml; sed -i s/pbkdf2/argon2/g argon-scram-rfc.xml; submitrfc argon-scram-rfc.xml? ;-)
[16:18:08] <SamWhited> jonasw: what and where are those XML files located?
[16:18:30] <SamWhited> "What are those XML files and where are the located", that is. That sentence got away from me.
[16:18:41] <SamWhited> They… *facepalm* I really can't type.
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[16:21:02] <Zash> Yeah, where are those?
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[16:21:42] <SamWhited> I only recently discovered that there actually is a big XML file with RFC information… the IETF has even worse search engine rankings and visibility problems than we do, I'm pretty convinced.
[16:21:55] <SamWhited> But it's not detailed and doesn't include I-Ds, as far as I know.
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[16:28:01] <Zash> https://www.iana.org/assignments/sasl-mechanisms/sasl-mechanisms.xhtml#sasl-mechanisms-1
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[16:34:56] <SamWhited> ooh that's a good idea, thanks. Although I don't think that lists any I-Ds that might be floating around out there; still, good starting place!
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[16:35:32] <moparisthebest> hey, ALPN ids are listed now https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids
[16:36:08] <moparisthebest> kind of a strange way to word the protocol, but I guess it's correct enough?
[16:36:14] <moparisthebest> XMPP jabber:client namespace
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[16:36:19] <moparisthebest> XMPP jabber:server namespace
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[16:36:39] <Tobias> wonder why some IDs are rather long and some others short
[16:36:46] <Zash> SamWhited: There's http://www.ietf.org/download/id-index.txt but it's huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge
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[16:37:07] <moparisthebest> oh that's how it's listed in the XEP too, did I do that? hehe
[16:37:09] <Zash> And maybe the kitten wg?
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[16:37:15] <Tobias> ah..it's the idrect textual representation
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[16:40:26] <Zash> https://tools.ietf.org/wg/sasl/ https://tools.ietf.org/wg/kitten/
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[17:21:02] <pep.> https://bpaste.net/show/138cf21c832d irccloud.com just updated their term apparently, some IRC web client. I feel this will be relevant to movim instance admins, edhelas
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[17:22:03] <Ge0rG> That's interesting, they claim to be a data processor.
[17:23:32] <pep.> yeah I noticed as well
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[17:31:14] <lovetox> Syndace, how is your omemo lib writing going
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[18:32:22] <Syndace> lovetox, I spent the last days trying to get a simple client up and running that echoes OMEMO messages, with partial success.

Debugging is extremely annoying as the OMEMO of the official clients is a mess.

I once accidantly published some wrong data to the pep node and the OMEMO plugin for Gajim completely died and remained unusable till now. Trying to send messages just fills my terminal with stack traces.

Conversations sends some weird empty message after the initial handshake. I thought I understood why it sends that message but then I found that Conversations 2.0 sends a different, even weirder message...

The small success: If my handmade client does the active handshake, the echoing works with Conversations as expected, so the crypto should be fine :)

I'm at the point where I'd probably need to dig into the code of conversations and gajim to understand the problem, but I really really really don't want to, got a lot of work atm.

But thank you for asking, I just remembered that my goal is to provide the crypto and not to provide a working client.

Tomorrow I'll clean up a last few things and release it, so you can try your luck with other clients :D
[18:32:56] <Syndace> Neustradamus: Hi! I'm fine, thanks :D
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[18:35:27] <lovetox> im the developer of the omemo plugin
[18:35:29] <lovetox> in gajim
[18:35:52] <lovetox> so if you need help add me lovetox@conversations.im
[18:36:49] <lovetox> also if you release your work i can adapt it to gajim, and then you dont have to put work into the whole client and xmpp protocol stuff
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[18:39:09] <pep.> Syndace, delegate! :)
[18:39:22] <pep.> less work for you
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[18:40:11] <lovetox> yes, its really better you just release the work, and let client devs implement it
[18:40:27] <lovetox> afterwards you can use the client to debug encryption related stuff
[18:40:49] <lovetox> im offering to do this as soon as you release it
[18:42:00] <Syndace> One question about the licensing stuff:

I already have MIT checked into the repo currently.
Now, I have to release GPL as we discussed recently.
If I just commit the new license, then someone can clone an earlier commit and get the earlier code including the MIT file.

Is that a problem?
[18:42:06] <Syndace> Wow thank you!
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[18:45:55] <pep.> hmm, I guess they can fork an ealier version of the work, though they would be liable? Maybe you can explain the reasons you're changing to GPL somewhere
[18:46:32] <peter> It's always dangerous to change licenses in midstream...
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[18:47:01] <pep.> git-filter-branch!
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[18:52:03] <jonasw> SamWhited, it was merely a convoluted way of saying "take the SCRAM rfc and do the same for argon2" sorry I got your hopes up (cc @ Zash)
[18:52:06] <Syndace> pep.: Thing is, I'm not just "changing" the license because I want to but the first license was never the correct one and I could get sued if I don't publish as GPL.

git filter branch? Those dark areas of git that I try to avoid :D
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[18:52:47] <jonasw> Syndace, git filter-branch or something equivalent is your only way.
[18:52:53] <jonasw> alternatively, you can squash the history
[18:52:56] <jonasw> why are you bound to GPL though?
[18:53:38] <Zash> Are you, really?
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[18:54:39] <Zash> Probably should take what us non-lawyers say with a truckload of salt
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[18:56:46] <lovetox> Syndace, clone your repo somewhere for backup
[18:56:59] <lovetox> squash everything into one inital commit before releasing
[18:57:02] <lovetox> upload finished
[18:57:26] <pep.> squash is meh :/
[18:58:18] <Syndace> Zash, I am bound to GPL. Until we define our own wireformat.
[18:58:25] <jonasw> Syndace, what
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[18:58:32] <jonasw> source for that?
[18:59:00] <Syndace> jonasw, for what? That I'm bound to GPL?
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[18:59:32] <jonasw> yeah
[18:59:35] <Syndace> I guess I could create a fresh repo with just the newest commit and release that one
[18:59:37] <jonasw> that doesn’t make sense to me
[18:59:40] <lovetox> someone told him here
[18:59:52] <lovetox> because he looked into signal source for the wire format
[19:00:08] <Syndace> jonasw, to be abled to talk to libsignal I needed to copy a few params from theit code
[19:00:20] <Syndace> I don't think there is any way that is not GPL
[19:00:30] <jonasw> isn’t there a specification aside from that code?
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[19:00:57] <Syndace> For large parts, yes
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[19:01:16] <jonasw> anyways, heading out.
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[19:01:27] <Syndace> But the specification says for example: "Set this parametet to an application specific ASCII string"
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[19:01:42] <Syndace> Which I had to copy from libsignal because it is not defined anywhere
[19:02:46] <Syndace> But then again, it's no problem to switch to MIT once we define our own parameters
[19:04:05] <pep.> Not really sure what's frightening about GPL tbh
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[19:08:05] <Zash> Probably a bit of FUD on account of Moxie & co being weird with reimplementation of signalprotocol
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[19:08:52] <pep.> I meant, why not just stick to GPL
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[19:12:35] <Syndace> pep.: GPL is fine for now but I personally don't like the philosophy to force open sourcers to use some license.
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[19:13:20] <pep.> Depends on your end goal
[19:14:04] <lovetox> pep., because not every client can ship gpl code
[19:14:12] <lovetox> there is a huge discussion about this
[19:14:22] <lovetox> on the list
[19:14:33] <pep.> lovetox, that can be distributed via another channel? You already have plugins for gajim for example
[19:15:07] <Zash> pep.: I was on why GPL, not why not.
[19:15:21] <pep.> But tbh if it were me I'd just put the client under GPL
[19:16:00] <lovetox> poezio for example is not under GPL if i remember correctly
[19:16:09] <mathieui> zlib indeed
[19:16:12] <lovetox> also jitsi i think
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[19:16:26] <pep.> yeah but we also have plugins. There is no case for now for external plugins though, since all are commited in the source
[19:16:29] <lovetox> smacks lib i think is also not
[19:16:33] <pep.> But it would be doable
[19:16:50] <mathieui> lovetox, it was gplv3 at the beginning though
[19:17:07] <lovetox> yeah of course, but if someone does the work and rewrites a whole lib from scratch
[19:17:20] <lovetox> why not work to the goal to make it with a good license
[19:17:24] <lovetox> that lets every option open
[19:17:47] <Syndace> lovetox: my thoughta
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[19:18:33] <pep.> good is definitely subjective here. It also lets the option for companies to just reuse it and use your work without giving anything back
[19:18:42] <pep.> Or anybody really
[19:18:59] <SamWhited> That seems perfectly fine… I don't really care if people give back to my work, I just want it to be as usable as possible.
[19:19:08] <pep.> I do care
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[19:20:15] <Syndace> I'll go with the beer license
[19:20:20] <SamWhited> I'd rather not force a choice on the majority of people who will give back and use my open source in a good way. If one or two people are bad actors that's unfortunate, but it's not worth hurting the large number of people who aren't already using the GPL just for the possibility that one person might do something bad.
[19:20:21] <Syndace> and make it copyleft
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[19:24:22] <pep.> SamWhited, I guess I see it the other way around. What would it cost you to release under GPL, and also have the one next to you release under GPL, etc. The main reason I see not wanting to use GPL is if you explicitely want to allow not giving back
[19:25:11] <SamWhited> Why should I relicense my thing just because you want to use a different license? It seems arrogant of you to want me to change what I've already done just because you think something else is better.
[19:25:23] <lovetox> pep. you use it if you want that as many people as possible use it
[19:25:40] <pep.> lovetox, usage is not restricted in any case
[19:25:56] <lovetox> yes it is if it means i have to publish my source
[19:26:07] <SamWhited> But yes, I want my thing distributed as widely as possible, so I'm not going to put stupid restrictions on that. If someone abuses it, that's unfortunate, but most people won't.
[19:26:13] <lovetox> you say its not restricted under X conditions
[19:26:14] <pep.> lovetox, right sorry I was out
[19:26:43] <lovetox> some people cant just live with these conditions so will not use it
[19:26:53] <pep.> lovetox, I wouldn't go as far as that
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[19:27:01] <SamWhited> And especially if it's a security thing then I definitely want it to be usable by proprietary closed source software. We're not going to get rid of it by using the GPL, but we can possibly make it more secure by not using the GPL.
[19:27:38] <pep.> SamWhited, I'm not sure where you want to go with the security thing.
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[19:27:50] <lovetox> it simple if you have higher goals
[19:28:03] <pep.> If people want to use a library they can'T, then too bad for them?
[19:28:11] <pep.> either they comply or they don't use it
[19:28:12] <lovetox> if my goal is government not spying on people because i think it makes a better world
[19:28:16] <SamWhited> Exactly where I went; if someone is making a bunch of garbage IOT devices that are insecure, and I make a library that makes auth easy and they consider using it, I don't want them not to use it because I arrogantly claim that they have to release their source if they bundle my library.
[19:28:22] <lovetox> i couldnt care less if companys use my encryption and make money with it
[19:28:26] <lovetox> because my goal is still reached
[19:28:47] <SamWhited> What lovetox said; of course, that's a very specific niche goal, I'm just sick of people pretending that there's no downside or tradeoffs with the GPL.
[19:28:55] <SamWhited> There are plenty of reasons not to use it.
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[19:29:44] <lovetox> also companys like google do this
[19:29:49] <pep.> Ok, well we definitely don't have the same goals, I guess I got that
[19:29:50] <lovetox> this is my opinion of course
[19:30:02] <lovetox> but often they release under licenses that allow not to give back
[19:30:08] <lovetox> because if you use there stuff it gets spreaded
[19:30:21] <lovetox> and when everyone uses it you depend on google stuff suddenly
[19:30:30] <lovetox> they profit in other ways from it
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[19:30:52] <pep.> Note, I didn't say a word about me making profit
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[20:07:59] <moparisthebest> I think I'm the one that said that, and IANAL
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[20:08:52] <moparisthebest> but I believe that if you copy even any tiny part from a GPL library, or possibly even look at it before implementing a replacement, it's a derivitive work that must be licenensed GPL, does that sound right?
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[20:11:31] <moparisthebest> besides if API's are copyrightable I'm not sure anything matters anymore https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-27/oracle-wins-revival-of-billion-dollar-case-against-google ...
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[20:32:41] <flow> moparisthebest, that is my interpretation too
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