Monday, April 02, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:09:55] <Maranda> Hmm who do I need to talk to for issues with wiki.xmpp.org?
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[09:50:56] <jonasw> Maranda, Guus and iteam
[09:52:03] <Maranda> jonasw, hmmm ok need to correct a few broken links
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[09:57:41] <jonasw> if they’re wiki-internal, you can ask for an account
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[11:08:08] <Anu> The more I think about it the more I think we need to define a standard way to treat mobile clients that don’t really go offline
[11:09:00] <Maranda> jonasw, request where?
[11:09:16] <Ge0rG> Maranda: here. Tell me your username and email address
[11:10:03] <Ge0rG> Anu: yes, there are short-term and mid-term ideas for that. Short-term: combine 0198 with Push to keep a disconnected session "alive" as long as it comes back after a push message
[11:10:10] <Maranda> Ge0rG, username this nick, e-mail maranda@lightwitch.org
[11:10:46] <Ge0rG> Maranda: A randomly generated password for Maranda has been sent to maranda@lightwitch.org.
[11:11:17] <Anu> Ah ok. I was having a discussion about it on Twitter and realized all of us client developers were coming up with our own suggestions
[11:11:17] <Ge0rG> Anu: mid-term we'll probably move more and more status and configuration options from the client to the account, like a status message and notification configs
[11:11:18] <Maranda> Ge0rG, let's wait on Greylisting ™
[11:11:22] <Maranda> :P
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[11:12:31] <Anu> Also once we suppress presence (offline /online) in our clients
[11:12:40] <Anu> What’s the point of subscription
[11:13:01] <Ge0rG> Anu: subscription is also an anti-spam whitelist
[11:13:41] <Zash> And feature advertising
[11:14:29] <Anu> Ive has fun explaining subscription to people
[11:14:49] <Anu> Because nothing else has it (at least visible ) these days
[11:14:50] <Ge0rG> Anu: just hide bidirectional subscription from them.
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[11:15:12] <Anu> Yes that’s what I’m thinking of doing
[11:15:15] <Ge0rG> Anu: I hope that with things like PARS (XEP-0379) and Easy Invitations (XEP-0401) that'll get easier
[11:15:35] <Ge0rG> Anu: in yaxim I have "Contact can see your status" for one direction and a [?] contact icon for the other
[11:15:53] <Anu> We have many ways hiding al of this
[11:15:53] <Ge0rG> no wait, it's the same.
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[11:16:57] <Anu> Unless I’m not aware of it there isn’t a document with recommendations
[11:17:08] <Ge0rG> Unfortunately, yes.
[11:17:15] <Anu> So either several developers come together and make up our own
[11:17:30] <Anu> Circumventing the process
[11:17:37] <Ge0rG> We are using the wiki for which things, if we aren't yet ready to make them official
[11:18:15] <Ge0rG> Anu: the standards list archive has some ideas as well. I'm trying to link and document them, but that takes time
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[11:34:33] <Maranda> Ge0rG, there links fixed, thank you :P
[11:34:48] <Ge0rG> Maranda: thank you!
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[12:02:07] <Anu> Ah is the wiki public? I’d like to not reinvent the wheel
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[12:05:49] <Ge0rG> Anu: yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page
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[12:06:36] <Anu> Sorry I meant the actual page where these suggestions are being written up
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[12:07:35] <Ge0rG> Anu: I try to put usability improvements under https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP
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[12:08:36] <Ge0rG> Also assorted pages, like https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0280:_Message_Carbons
[12:08:52] <Ge0rG> Maybe we need a new category for that, "Usability"?
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[12:09:32] <Anu> Yup this is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Great
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[12:09:53] <Ge0rG> Yay, I just realized that the standards@ ML archive links from 2014 are all wrong
[12:09:56] <Ge0rG> Thanks, mailman.
[12:10:27] <Anu> I’ve realized that xmpp has so much legacy stuff that is based on AIM or IRC
[12:10:39] <Anu> It’s like aim and irc had a baby
[12:10:41] <Anu> Haha
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[12:11:01] <Ge0rG> Anu: I think you mean ICQ.
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[12:11:20] <Anu> Nope muc is an irc clone
[12:11:43] <Anu> It made sense in the 90s because that’s what people were familiar with
[12:11:50] <Anu> But feels super antiquated now
[12:12:01] <Ge0rG> Anu: ICQ and IRC.
[12:12:04] <Ge0rG> not AIM and ICQ
[12:12:24] <Ge0rG> Anu: the MUC spec is a horrible mess, with many rough edges and unspecified corner cases. I'm fixing it slowly.
[12:12:26] *Maranda mumbles.
[12:12:29] <Anu> Ah yes
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[12:12:53] <Anu> I saw there was an effort to make a new group chat spec
[12:13:02] <Maranda> Hmm clients supporting Process Hints up-today?
[12:13:19] <Anu> What’s process hints?
[12:13:34] <Ge0rG> Anu: the new group chat is MIX, and it's already huge and complex and nobody has implemented it yet.
[12:13:37] <Maranda> -xep 334
[12:13:39] <Bunneh> Maranda: Message Processing Hints (Standards Track, Deferred, 2018-01-25)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html
[12:14:39] <Ge0rG> Anu: did you follow the last Summit discussions? I have collected a long list of current issues we need to address at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
[12:15:08] <Anu> I haven’t, no. Just had a baby and have mostly dropped off the planet
[12:15:47] <Anu> I’ve implemented group chat for several closed protocols
[12:15:54] <Ge0rG> Anu: ah, you've been working on increasing the number of xmpp users? That's laudable!
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[12:16:10] <Anu> Let’s just say there is no version that easy or clean
[12:16:20] <Anu> :)
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[12:17:28] <Anu> It’s a way to keep my mind active at nap time
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[12:19:12] <Anu> The other thing I’ve realized is that no one really uses status messages anymore
[12:19:30] <Anu> I’ve had it under the name on the contact list for a decade
[12:19:52] <Maranda> Ge0rG add the horrible misconception of "MAM and Room Logging" to the muc list. People seem to think that MAM doesn't equate to "recording conversations" apparently (and the fact that status 170 should always be used whenever discussions are recorded server-side)
[12:20:00] <Anu> But at some point people started posting their status to twitter/fb not on chat
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[12:20:36] <Anu> All of this logging is going to break so bad with gdpr
[12:21:30] <Anu> No idea how small xmpp servers are going to handle pseudo-anonymization
[12:21:35] <Anu> And purge requests
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[12:22:57] <Maranda> I already have a protocol for purging, and Processing Hints for not storing. But purging archives seems another controversial we have here.
[12:23:06] <Anu> Severs should have an option to run in gdpr mode
[12:23:30] <Anu> Ip logs too
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[12:23:44] <Anu> Names, nick names etc
[12:23:57] <Anu> It’s a mess
[12:24:47] <Anu> I think the rules were made for large companies with resources but it’s going to impact any small server
[12:26:03] <Zash> Have we figured out what "GDPR mode" means yet?
[12:26:33] <Anu> I would say regular log purging.
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[12:26:45] <Anu> Minimal logging at info level
[12:27:11] <Anu> Switching to debug mode usually lets you get away with more verbose logging
[12:27:59] <Anu> And not keeping message history beyond the legal max
[12:28:22] <Anu> It’s bad ux but that’s kind of the point
[12:30:04] <Ge0rG> Anu: it's okay to keep message logs the users actually want.
[12:30:32] <Ge0rG> Anu: all you need is consent from the user and some interface to download / purge
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[12:31:02] <Maranda> Anu: the "legal max" being? Didnt have time to even glance at that thing.
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[12:32:15] <Maranda> Well consent could be just setting logging default (mam prefs eg) to disabled.
[12:32:24] <Maranda> I suppose
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[12:35:04] <Ge0rG> Maranda: not quite, the user should have to agree when registering, and maybe get an explicit info from the client when enabling mam
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[12:38:52] <Maranda> "from the client" 😉
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[12:44:24] <Maranda> Ge0rG the good thing with doing backends is that UI/X stuffis mostly irrelevant to me hehe
[12:44:39] <Maranda> s/doing/dealing/
[12:45:19] <Maranda> And *dealing with*
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[12:47:49] <Anu> Hah
[12:48:30] <Anu> Except the fines for gdpr are steep
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[12:49:06] <Anu> Up to 10 million euros or 2% of revenue for minor fines
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[12:49:40] <Anu> € 20 million or 4% for worse infractions
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[12:49:53] <Anu> A few fines can quickly shut down smaller services
[12:49:54] <Maranda> When a user registers to my server he/she has to consent to the service agreement anyways so it's possibly one or two more lines there
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[12:50:53] <Anu> Service agreements dont override law though
[12:51:11] <Anu> Otherwise fb et al would just change their eulas
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[12:51:36] <Anu> We only have until May 25 to be compliant
[12:51:58] <Anu> It’s a serious headache for tech companies
[12:52:00] <Maranda> True but if gdpr wants user consent
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[12:52:20] <Maranda> This is more a problem with IBR not OOBR
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[12:52:46] <Zash> You could argue that use of IBR implies consent to whatever.
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[12:53:09] <Zash> You could also argue that the moon is made of cheese. Also IANAL and neither are you! :P
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[12:53:31] <Anu> Haha
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[12:53:56] <Anu> Also how do we recommend people handle xfer of data in and out of Europe ?
[12:54:15] <Zash> How's those XSF-GDPR meetings going?
[12:54:20] <Anu> I assume the xsf has legal help.
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[12:55:11] <Maranda> Anu, and yes service agreements are never normative but in the end if there's an issue you'll end in a court so I don't see where's the problem
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[12:56:08] <Maranda> (a ToS/EULA here has *no value* at all, you'll get to debate it anyways)
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[12:57:05] <Anu> Yeah
[12:57:58] <MattJ> Maranda, if you end in a court and your ToS disagrees with GDPR, you're going to have a hard time...
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[12:58:24] <Anu> From my understanding if we address logging, log anonymization, allow data export and data purging it covers most bases
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[12:59:02] <Anu> Curious to see how this plays out for smaller, more resource constrained xmpp providers
[12:59:30] <Maranda> Maybe MattJ, I'm very transparent on what data I collect, so I don't think that would be the case anyways
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[13:01:09] <Anu> Gdpr has been my life for the past year or so, it’s going to be a barrier for entry in messaging
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[13:08:24] <moparisthebest> Still sounds easiest and safest to just ban EU residents from servers
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[13:10:11] <Zash> You know what's even easier? Not running an XMPP server at all!
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[13:10:28] <Anu> Haha yup
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[13:10:52] <Anu> Or run it out of Europe and beyond the reach of their law enforcement
[13:11:21] <Maranda> My server is located in New Ark, although I'm not.
[13:11:35] <Maranda> (the thing running the xmpp one at least)
[13:11:41] <Maranda> :P
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[13:14:46] <moparisthebest> The only thing that somewhat concerns me is federation
[13:15:06] <moparisthebest> I'd be sad if I had to disable federation with EU servers
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[13:16:47] <Anu> Probably will
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[13:18:38] <MattJ> That's not a solution
[13:19:01] <MattJ> Plenty of EU citizens use US servers :)
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[13:19:30] <MattJ> So just because you receive a message from a non-EU server doesn't mean you can assume it didn't come from an EU citizen
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[13:21:34] <Anu> Jokes aside , gdpr is made to force global compliance
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[13:21:45] <Anu> So us servers will have to implement it too
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[13:22:08] <Anu> It’s based on the possibilities of doing business with an eu citizen
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[13:30:11] <Ge0rG> Anu: please come to our next xsf GDPR meeting
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[13:30:42] <Ge0rG> Anu: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
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[13:33:06] <Anu> I will try.
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[13:39:10] <Anu> Can I add questions for the lawyer to that wiki page?
[13:39:22] <Anu> I’m very concerned about federation
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[13:40:01] <Anu> Might be an end of an era for non Balkanized Internet
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[13:46:50] <Ge0rG> Anu: we have so far tried to address the local user case. I'm hopeful that s2s delivery of messages will be permitted by assuming consent from the sender.
[13:47:18] <Ge0rG> Anu: it would be great if you could join the meeting so we know the context of the questions you want to add.
[13:47:27] <Anu> Ok
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[14:06:46] <moparisthebest> whether they meant to enforce global compliance or not (I think you are right), sorry the EU is just a tiny portion of the internet and they cannot do it
[14:07:31] <moparisthebest> they can enforce it on companies that operate in the EU and that is it, EU citizens will probably suffer from walled gardens but then they should vote to fix the situation I guess...
[14:07:43] <moparisthebest> (or just use non-EU servers and don't mention they are from EU?)
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[15:13:24] <Zash> So, on May 19, it will have been 4 years since https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto/blob/master/manifesto.txt went into effect.
[15:13:50] <Zash> Assuming I can count.
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[15:16:00] <MattJ> How is http://opendiscussionday.org/ still running?
[15:16:33] <Zash> I was looking for that just now. I had to look up the manifesto to remember the exact date
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[15:23:57] <Maranda> Last modified: 2018/03/09 08:24 🤔
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[15:42:35] *Maranda wonders if the there's any client implementation for [xep 273]
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[15:42:47] <Zash> Bunneh: xep 273
[15:42:47] <Bunneh> Zash: Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) (Standards Track, Deferred, 2011-06-27)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html
[15:42:49] *Maranda eyes Bunneh.
[15:43:10] <Maranda> Bunneh what's your inline syntax tell me :P
[15:43:38] <pep.> {}
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[15:43:45] <Zash> Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[15:43:54] <pep.> Did I just kill it
[15:44:09] <Zash> Bunneh: tell pep. no
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[15:44:28] <pep.> It doesn't seem to comply much
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[15:48:41] *Maranda thinks {ping}
[15:48:41] <Bunneh> Maranda: pong
[15:49:06] <Maranda> Bunneh just doesn't like inline syntax :P
[15:49:11] <Maranda> Ohhh
[15:49:24] <Maranda> Now Gajim shown that with delay lol
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[15:50:14] <Zash> It adds some kind of attaching tag to indicate its bottyness
[15:50:17] <Zash> I forget which
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[15:53:52] <pep.> Ge0rG, I was told (but HINAL either) that even s2s should "just" require consent, as long as we're transparent and we say "This _can_ happen". Though technically that means "We have no clue what can happen on the other end"
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[15:56:20] <Ge0rG> pep.: I suppose the other server is also bound by GDPR
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[15:56:58] <moparisthebest> how is the other server supposed to get consent Ge0rG ?
[15:56:59] <pep.> I assume so
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[15:57:16] <pep.> moparisthebest, I would say it doesn't get it explicitely from s2s users
[15:57:42] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: you need to forward messages to the other server for them to reach the receiver.
[15:57:42] <moparisthebest> for a specific example, how is my server supposed to get consent from everyone in this channel to log their messages?
[15:57:59] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: this is a public room
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[15:58:11] <moparisthebest> is that different?
[15:58:16] <pep.> Ge0rG, though the same happens with private rooms here
[15:58:27] <moparisthebest> how do you even tell which is which
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[15:58:35] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: but if I send you a private message, I must assume that your server will process it
[15:59:00] <moparisthebest> this is dumb, EU should feel ashamed and you EU citizens should fix your crappy law :P
[15:59:12] <pep.> moparisthebest, if it's s2s I don't think you do. I would say the c2s server has to state in its EULA that data will be sent to other services and will be processed there
[15:59:34] <pep.> But IANAL, of course
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[16:00:34] <Ge0rG> So this might be considered implicit agreement. Processing is legal to fulfill a legitimate interest of a third party. The receiver is the third party and their legitimate interest is to receive my message
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[16:01:17] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: stop trolling us. You Americans have been fucking with our privacy long enough already
[16:01:22] <Anu> There is also right to be forgotten stuff
[16:01:34] <Anu> That’s for public records
[16:01:44] <Anu> It really is a mess
[16:01:48] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, are you talking about facebook? I agree, so here's an idea I've been following forever, don't use facebook
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[16:02:06] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I told you about Facebook already.
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[16:02:10] <pep.> Anu, yeah not sure how to apply that over s2s
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[16:03:02] <pep.> And it's not like I was going to keep a record of servers the user has been talking to, so I can then ask these servers to delete his stuff :/
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[16:03:35] <Anu> I think on some level this is like email and someone will have to chase down every server with their info but on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info
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[16:04:15] <Anu> Like google had to remove links from its index but can’t stop the news links from existing on the net
[16:04:17] *pep. checks for Gmail's EULA
[16:04:28] <moparisthebest> I feel like it's exactly like email, and whatever applies there must apply here
[16:04:32] <Anu> Everyone is updating for gdpr
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[16:04:39] <UsL> doesn't matter if it is the EU or the States. It is all part of the same goal.
[16:04:52] <Anu> None of us are done but you will start seeing new gdpr related Eulas soon
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[16:05:01] <Zash> Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer
[16:05:19] <moparisthebest> IF YOU RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR YOU MUST DELETE IT RIGHT NOW
[16:05:31] <moparisthebest> like all corporations send? I'm sure that's *super* legally binding
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[16:06:39] <pep.> moparisthebest, yeah, that is useless
[16:06:41] <Ge0rG> Zash [18:05]:
> Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer
In the xmpp message footer
[16:06:56] <pep.> <message><footer/></message>
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[16:07:24] <Anu> Haha
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[16:08:15] <Ge0rG> pep.: it must be in the body for backwards compatibility reasons
[16:08:23] <moparisthebest> also e2e
[16:08:34] <pep.> Ge0rG, :@
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[16:08:57] <moparisthebest> really the only part that concerns me is what Anu said " on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info"
[16:09:08] *pep. gets the axe and goes to hunt whoever invented the term "backward compatibility"
[16:09:14] <moparisthebest> it's easy to get explicit consent from your users, and tell them what *you* are doing
[16:09:34] <moparisthebest> but once you send it over that s2s link, it's gone, out of your and your user's control forever
[16:09:58] <pep.> moparisthebest, it's possible to warn them "Hey, we have no clue what happens to messages sent to other servers"
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[16:10:04] <pep.> I don't know what legal value this has though
[16:10:17] <pep.> Also users are not really often aware of the boundaries
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[16:10:41] <pep.> They add the contact once, maybe they pay attention to the JID, but probably quickly forget about it
[16:10:43] <moparisthebest> s/users/lawyers creating EU privacy laws/
[16:10:52] <Anu> The whole nature of federation means a use has no idea what servers they are talking to
[16:10:56] <pep.> Not like email where you often see the email you send to
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[19:08:46] <Maranda> while you keep wasting time with GDPR....
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[19:09:05] *Maranda played a bit more with SIFT and added some more stuff...
[19:09:07] <Maranda> :P
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[19:09:25] <Maranda> probably something people will never use ™
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[19:10:57] <Maranda> also removed {xep 91} layovers which is a plus.
[19:10:57] <Bunneh> Maranda: Legacy Delayed Delivery (Historical, Obsolete, 2009-05-27)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0091.html
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[19:40:34] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[19:45:29] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[19:57:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[20:05:45] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:27:29] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm working."
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[20:41:47] *** Maranda shows as "dnd"
[20:41:49] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[20:42:38] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[20:42:52] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[20:45:35] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[20:47:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[20:50:22] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:50:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[20:53:16] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:53:17] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:53:19] *** winfried has joined the room
[20:53:26] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[20:56:44] *** sezuan shows as "online"
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[20:57:52] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[20:58:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[21:18:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[21:19:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[21:20:22] *** daniel has left the room
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[21:23:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[21:43:17] *** LNJ shows as "online"
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[21:48:38] *** goffi has left the room
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[21:53:07] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[21:55:53] *** remko shows as "online"
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[22:16:13] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:17:39] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:18:45] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[22:18:48] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:20:18] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[22:22:48] *** Ge0rG has left the room
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[22:25:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[22:28:56] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:29:02] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:29:03] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:29:47] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:29:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:33:40] *** Ge0rG has left the room
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[22:37:00] *** Holger shows as "online"
[22:37:01] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:37:39] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:39:32] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[22:41:36] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[22:46:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[22:57:44] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:02:13] *** Lance has joined the room
[23:02:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[23:06:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:17:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[23:22:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[23:24:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[23:26:58] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:27:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[23:29:32] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[23:37:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:45:06] *** Lance shows as "away"
[23:46:52] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:47:05] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[23:49:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:56:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:56:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:56:43] *** Syndace shows as "away"
[23:56:56] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[23:58:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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