XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-04-03


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  315. edhelas hello everyone
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  491. Seve/SouL o/
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  517. edhelas https://blog.torproject.org/sunsetting-tor-messenger
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  521. Maranda ^ *yawn* tbh
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  523. Ge0rG METADATA!!!1
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  525. Maranda Ge0rG stop leaking all my precious metas ™️😪
  526. edhelas got a question for you
  527. Ge0rG Marandata!
  528. edhelas what do you think about using MAM to "discover" Pubsub nodes
  529. Maranda \o/
  530. Andrew Nenakhov edhelas, > https://blog.torproject.org/sunsetting-tor-messenger Good riddance
  531. edhelas <iq to='pubsub.shakespeare.lit' type='set' id='juliet1'> <query xmlns='urn:xmpp:mam:2' queryid='f28' /> </iq>
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  533. edhelas without the "node" attribute, then I can paginate on those nodes
  534. Maranda already spoke about the topic, "just.. No"
  535. Maranda That's more about adding some result filtering option to disco#items queries (and something simpler than having to implement connection nodes) imho
  536. Maranda s/connection/collection/
  537. MattJ edhelas, indeed, aren't you just looking for RSM on disco#items? Which is one of the things RSM was created for
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  539. Kev But no-one* implements, unfortunately.
  540. edhelas I'd like to also order
  541. Kev [* I've not seen it in the wild, in any case]
  542. MattJ waits for the *
  543. MattJ Aww
  544. edhelas RSM would be nice for pagination indeed
  545. MattJ I was hoping for *except we almost have an implementation in Swift
  546. Kev We've got RSM in Swift, but not plumbed into disco.
  547. edhelas *soon to be released
  548. edhelas also filtering
  549. edhelas but it would be the same kind of things for conferences
  550. edhelas "give me the top conferences of this service", "conferences with the most users"
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  552. edhelas and I want only the top 50 ones
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  558. Maranda And while RSM does it for paging I'm not sure it does it to filter results by <insert something, e.g. name> as long as I didn't miss any bit in {xep 30} which does
  559. Bunneh Maranda: Service Discovery (Standards Track, Final, 2017-10-03) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html
  560. Maranda I suppose "hierarchies"?
  561. Kev You could use disco nodes for the filtering, and RSM on that :)
  562. edhelas Kev what do you mean ?
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  564. Kev If you wanted to build filtering into disco results, you could define a way of encoding the filters in the disco node, and then use RSM in the 'usual' way for the disco results.
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  566. edhelas I don't see how you can do that
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  569. Maranda Kev, I think the problem here was having the server filter result items by say a portion of the name e.g. "urn:xmpp:microblog" and return only the matching items
  570. Maranda Not the client retrieving everything and then filter
  571. Kev Indeed.
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  573. Kev I repeat, you could just define a syntax for using nodes as a filter.
  574. Kev )
  575. Kev :)
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  577. edhelas I know that there's the pubsub#type attribute in Pubsub
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  583. Maranda I guess you could arbitrarily use type or something else, but whatever needs implementation both sides
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  585. Maranda Aka hax
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  588. Maranda Something more definite in the spec itself would be better imho (but then that would fall into the same issues)
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  590. edhelas yeah
  591. edhelas I'm kinda lost
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  594. Maranda And we're talking about filtering the containers aka the nodes 'emselves so can't use nodes, pubsub doesn't allow for hierarchy/leaf types afair
  595. Maranda s/hierarchy/branch/
  596. Maranda As long as not using collections which is overly convoluted
  597. edhelas do we have one Pubsub Collection implementation in the wild that is actuavelly used ?
  598. Holger ejabberd has code for it.
  599. edhelas I'm still finishing the 0060 pubsub implementation in ejabberd
  600. Holger No idea whether it's actually used by anyone :-)
  601. edhelas Holger as far as I saw, it's far from be done
  602. Holger Ah. No idea.
  603. Maranda Problem here we have 3 xeps to deal with disco, pubsub and microblogging
  604. ralphm I know it is used, but personally I think the current spec is not great. Except, maybe, the root node.
  605. Maranda 😎
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  607. edhelas Maranda it's more than Pubsub
  608. edhelas again, how can I discover conferences on my own server without listing 10K conferences from the service ?
  609. ralphm I think that in most cases where you might think that collection nodes are a good idea, you're probably better of with node-as-code.
  610. Maranda I said "disco, pubsub and microblogging"...
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  612. edhelas ah yeah sorry
  613. edhelas ralphm maybe we can deprecate Collection ?
  614. ralphm I guess we could, but who would benefit from this exactly?
  615. edhelas who is benefiting from it actually ?
  616. ralphm The specification is already deferred
  617. Kev Collections is a bit of a mess when you end up trying to use it, so I'm not sure it's an altogether stupid suggestion.
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  619. edhelas I had a look at collection many times, also for social network usage, I never ended up to find a nice way to use AND implement i
  620. edhelas *it
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  622. ralphm I.e. you can't go to deferred without going to Draft, first.
  623. edhelas I think that we better design Pubsub as a flat tree behind the services, but with a good filtering/ordering/pagination system to explore the nodes
  624. edhelas then a client that want to explore the network will be able to grab lots of interesting data quickly
  625. edhelas and not doing recursive exploration, loading entire dump of nodes and exploring each of thems
  626. ralphm edhelas: without XEP-0248, which is Deferred, there is only a bag of nodes, without any organization. If that aligns with your idea of a flat tree, yay.
  627. edhelas yes
  628. ralphm I like doing nothing and achieve results :-D
  629. edhelas MAM got a lot of nice features, including filtering on results, pagination
  630. edhelas too bad it's called "message archive"
  631. edhelas because it could be used for many other use cases
  632. edhelas like discovery
  633. Holger Well the pagination is 0059, it's just the filtering syntax you're missing, no?
  634. edhelas as well
  635. Holger Or sorting, which MAM also doesn't have.
  636. edhelas yup :D
  637. Holger I.e. "sort by number of participants/subscribers" or so.
  638. edhelas both 3
  639. Holger So I don't quite buy "MAM is perfect just has the wrong name" :-P
  640. Holger I totally see your use case and would think this just[tm] needs a bit new syntax.
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  642. edhelas or we can revive SQL over XMPP
  643. edhelas ---> []
  644. Ge0rG edhelas: I propose we use an HTTP-REST abstraction in between. OData is my favorite for that.
  645. Link Mauve “11:57:15 ralphm> I.e. you can't go to deferred without going to Draft, first.”, IIRC we did that at least once, and I’d like to propose a change to the process to allow it more.
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  647. edhelas more seriously if we can achieve, in a XEP, a way to deal with those 3 things, pagination (RSM), filtering (MAM) and sorting, we can be good
  648. Link Mauve We’ve been telling people to implement deferred XEPs for a while, because a lot of them are useful, yet there are a ton of useless deferred ones.
  649. edhelas also MAM can then reuse that, I mean, in ejabberd MAM is basically querying the archives table :p
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  651. Holger edhelas: I see the idea, I'm just not sure a generic filtering/sorting syntax really simplifies things compared to adding whatever you need to 0045/0060.
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  653. edhelas this XEP can be reused in lots of places "give me all the Holger messages, sorted by date in this chatroom, by pages of 20"
  654. edhelas Holger yeah maybe
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  656. edhelas I'm not coming wih a proper solution here, just that I can't scale Pubsub for now
  657. edhelas especially because of this disco issue
  658. Holger Maybe. I'm just saying that it's not obvious to me that this works as nicely for filtering/sorting as it does for pagination. You want different filtering/sorting fields for the different use cases.
  659. edhelas but that's the same thing with disco overall :D XMPP is just not that good with discovery, too "raw"
  660. edhelas indeed
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  668. edhelas Holger what about filtering/ordering by https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#entity-metadata
  669. edhelas I have to do a PR in that thing as well, to expose more metadata
  670. edhelas including pubsub#access_model and pubsub#last_update
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  694. ralphm Link Mauve: I strongly believe that if you need to encourage people to implement Deferred specifications, you should make an effort to bring it to Draft.
  695. ralphm Going from Deferred to Deprecated doesn't make sense to me.
  696. Anu has joined
  697. Link Mauve I agree, but that rarely happens.
  698. Link Mauve Or at least not in a timely manner.
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  700. ralphm Deferred simply means: nobody's touched this in 12 months (used to be 6 I think) and nobody cares to move it forward in the process.
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  703. edhelas also you cannot ask developpers to implement a new XEP, they are implementing it if they find it valuable
  704. ralphm XEP-0248 hasn't been touched since 2010, so I'd say it is rather dead. There doesn't seem any value in making it Deprecated.
  705. ralphm edhelas: a new XEP is not Deferred
  706. Guus has left
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  708. edhelas sorry, defered
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  710. ralphm Sure, people that have a particular use case might not care about the actual status.
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  714. ralphm We currently only have 11 Deprecated XEPs and most of them were superseded by either RFCs or new protocol. The only exception, arguably, is XHTML-IM.
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  716. Link Mauve edhelas, we make sure these developers will continue to implement deprecated things, by making experimental ones scary and never advancing them, and by deferring them.
  717. ralphm To be honest, the XHTML-IM spec should have a description of why it was deprecated.
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  720. edhelas what is the state of bookmark2 by the way ?
  721. ralphm (and probably also mark XEP-0393 as a successor if that was the intent of the Council)
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  727. ralphm I see that XEP-0393 does mark itself as a successor to XEP-0071, so maybe it is just an editorial issue. Dave Cridland, SamWhited what is the idea here?
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  759. Anu Funny thing, what I find more difficult is keeping track of when the spec changes
  760. Anu Short of being in these groups I don’t know how I would know that something I implemented years ago has been updated or changed
  761. Anu Well that and someone telling me something is broken
  762. MattJ Are you on the standards mailing list?
  763. Anu No
  764. MattJ That's the central place for notifications about updates
  765. Anu I have been in the past but since I do stuff as a hobby more than professionally
  766. Anu I’m often out of the loop or behind
  767. alexis has left
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  769. Anu Any other protocol has an overall version of the api
  770. Zash What protocols?
  771. MattJ Anu, there was a proposal for that recently on the standards list ;)
  772. Anu There are many closed protocols that use xmpp as a backend but expose it as a rest Api
  773. alexis has left
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  775. Anu They make xmpp easier to use and develop for. We debate the restful part but the fact that there is an api version means there less of a moving target
  776. andy has joined
  777. Anu The largest closed garden messaging services are or started as xmpp servers with push support and rest interfaces
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  800. Anu Api versioning could be as simple as having a release schedule. Xep are always in development but X times a year we publish the new spec .
  801. Anu There are a lot of xeps and they all look equally important
  802. Anu But in reality some are heavily supported and others aren’t
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  806. Ge0rG Anu: XEP-0387 is supposed to provide an up-to-date overview of the most important ones for IM
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  808. Ge0rG Anu: as somebody who's not following closely, it would be nice if you could point out where you struggle. I'd love to provide resources for newcomers in the wiki or maybe even on the main page in the future
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  813. Maranda Regarding disco#items filtering, sorry but had no cell where I was, problem is we're dealing with 3 different xeps each one wanting a different thing.. As usual.
  814. edhelas Maranda I'm currently talking with order
  815. edhelas we maybe have an idea :) define two new XEPs Result Order Management and Result Filtering Management
  816. moparisthebest has joined
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  818. edhelas the service expose trough the disco#info the field that you can order and filter on
  819. edhelas and boom, you apply just RSM like things
  820. edhelas *Holger
  821. Maranda Order?
  822. Order has joined
  823. Holger Yes, with me.
  824. Holger Oh.
  825. LNJ has left
  826. Holger Seems my client failed to change my nick to 'Order' before making that statement.
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  830. Maranda Result order management is needed for what beside the obvious?
  831. Holger Received error packet [conflict] from <xsf@muc.xmpp.org/Order>
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  833. Maranda Changing order based on x?
  834. MattJ Multiple devices under the same nick
  835. edhelas Maranda that's it
  836. Holger MattJ: Ah, right.
  837. Guus has left
  838. Maranda I have a Jappix dejavu for some reason.
  839. Ge0rG MSN nicknames are a problem still.
  840. Holger TBH I'm still not convinced we need a new XEP. As opposed to just adding a data form to the disco request like MAM does today.
  841. Maranda Yes, agreed.
  842. Holger Ge0rG: We have no problems, we have opportunities.
  843. Maranda I came out with something even simpler than using DFs, but that's the idea.
  844. Holger (Sorry already had a bullshit bingo meeting today.)
  845. Ge0rG Holger: let's make an MVP!
  846. MattJ Prosody trunk == your MVP
  847. Ge0rG From MVP to ICO in only 0.5 Bitcoins!
  848. Ge0rG A coworker of mine is quitting to do something with the blockchain. Let's see if I can talk him out of it again.
  849. Maranda Ge0rG I suggest just blocking him with a chain.
  850. Ge0rG is that like clubbing him with books?
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  852. Maranda On the nearest lamp post
  853. Guus has left
  854. Maranda Irregardless of the nature of the article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281541/Chinese-boy-chained-lamp-post-father-tried-sell-street.html this gives an idea Ge0rG
  855. Maranda 🤣
  856. Ge0rG Hm. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Special:Random is rather worthless because you always end up on random membership application pages.
  857. Ge0rG Maranda: was that boy to be sold or to be rented out?
  858. Maranda "Irregardless of the nature of the article" you know what to do with the "chain" and your colleague
  859. Maranda probably failed at some humor attempt
  860. Maranda Or google failed bringing up a good piccie
  861. Guus has left
  862. Ge0rG Hm. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Facebook links to a non-existent page.
  863. Maranda Ge0rG, more adapt http://www.mannequin-man.com/machinemart6.jpg
  864. daniel has left
  865. Maranda For some reason the first results of "chained to a lamp post" all brought either bikes or stuff that is all but humouristical
  866. alexis has joined
  867. Ge0rG So... I still wonder if we can solve multi-client/mobile MUC by implementing: - account joins all bookmarks on behalf of user - account determines notification-worthiness - account sends to-be-defined (push) notification to client - client transparently joins and gets backlog from MAM
  868. Maranda "Account joins all bookmarks on behalf of client"?
  869. Maranda Is that still the bnc idea?
  870. Ge0rG Maranda: yes
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  872. Ge0rG It's a good, strong idea.
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  876. Holger It's an opportunity.
  877. Maranda Questions... when "is it supposed to join" and "how long is it supposed to stay joined"
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  879. moparisthebest how is the POC prosody module to do that working out?
  880. Ge0rG Maranda: when bookmarks
  881. Maranda "When bookmarked" and "for eternity from that" has its issues ™️
  882. Ge0rG Maranda: I know. Tell the MIX.
  883. Ge0rG Maranda: I would probably go with something like "at most N (=14) days after the last client disconnected"
  884. Alex has joined
  885. Ge0rG But obviously, having a zombie in a MUC is not desirable
  886. moparisthebest that'd just be an account/server setting
  887. Ge0rG Maybe also "when the last client session is killed"
  888. Maranda 14 days on very busy room is a lot but still better than forever
  889. Zash Anyone tested my minimix?
  890. Ge0rG moparisthebest: users won't be able to figure it out. Probably not even server admins
  891. marmistrz has left
  892. Ge0rG Zash: tell us how
  893. Zash Ge0rG: I'm sure I put it in prosody-modules
  894. daniel has left
  895. Ge0rG Zash: I'm not sure you told us that before
  896. Ge0rG so https://modules.prosody.im/mod_minimix.html
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  899. Tobias https://blog.torproject.org/sunsetting-tor-messenger what do they mean with centralized metadata problem? isn't it decentralized?
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  901. moparisthebest oh that's different than the one I (and I think you) were thinking of where each contact has their own .onion address, that looks like 'pidgin over tor'
  902. Maranda I think they just brought a random word to add between the last one and "problem"
  903. Maranda But that's me
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  907. moparisthebest The aim was to provide a chat client that supported a wide variety of transport networks like Jabber (XMPP), IRC, Google Talk, Facebook, Twitter; had an easy-to-use graphical interface; and configured most of the security and privacy settings automatically with minimal user intervention.
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  910. moparisthebest so they are just saying all of those are centralized (xmpp least of which, but still has a good amount of metadata)
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  914. vanitasvitae > https://blog.torproject.org/sunsetting-tor-messenger what do they mean with centralized metadata problem? isn't it decentralized? Iwas thinking the same.
  915. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: it's more centralized than in p2p messengers
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  917. moparisthebest in other words it is not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat
  918. Maranda moparisthebest, do you realize the intrinsical dumbness of that article though, "you don't want to scatter anything around" but you use an intermediary entity, oh rly?
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  923. Maranda Aka If you're so concerned, just go serverless and GTFO with it.
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  925. moparisthebest I still think much can be done with XMPP towards the 'no metadata' goal, or at least 'minimal metadata'
  926. Kev Some things can, but it's hard to get away from an envelope, I think
  927. Ge0rG If you want E2EE and minimal meta-data, XMPP is just not the right protocol.
  928. moparisthebest the initial plan I have in my mind, in a 2 server scenario, prevents any 1 server from knowing the endpoints
  929. daniel has left
  930. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you want to reinvent tor at the message routing layer.
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  932. moparisthebest it's not actually that complicated, but perhaps that's a good summary
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  934. moparisthebest basically bob@bob.com communicates with tom@tom.com, but server bob.com only knows bob@bob.com is communicating with tom.com, and tom.com only knows tom@tom.com is communicating with bob.com
  935. Ge0rG moparisthebest: and then you also need to tie the identity of users into cryptographic identifiers, and at that moment you could just use Tor for the plumbing
  936. moparisthebest yep, but we already have that with omemo and pgp so
  937. Valerian has joined
  938. moparisthebest going with tor is already done with torchat, it doesn't give me all the nice things xmpp does though
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  941. Ge0rG moparisthebest: both OMEMO and PGP suck regarding identity management. There is no strong binding between your JID and your key.
  942. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you could do serverless XMPP between onion hosts.
  943. moparisthebest sounds like it'd eat battery though
  944. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm not so sure. You need to get some tor routing DHT data, that's some hundred megs a week or so
  945. moparisthebest one of the downsides of my plan is it makes any type of content or metadata based spam blocking worthless, but that sounds like someone else's problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :)
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  947. MattJ Ge0rG, having no strong binding between your JID and your key is a bonus in the context of the metadata thing
  948. MattJ I could message you from a new random JID every day, but you would still know it was me
  949. Ge0rG MattJ: except I would need to analyze your key to decrypt, and attackers could do so as well to identify you
  950. moparisthebest only the thing meant to decrypt it should be able to do that
  951. Kev Ge0rG: unless it's sign then encrypt.
  952. Ge0rG And how am I supposed to respond in this scheme?
  953. Kev You don't bother, it was probably spam anyway :D
  954. Maranda Lol
  955. MattJ Ge0rG, who is the attacker in that case?
  956. moparisthebest in my mind, the server keys are in DNS, so you look up the key for otherserver.net, encrypt the fact that you are responding to bob@otherserver.net, and send it to otherserver.net
  957. MattJ The premise is that I can use a different server for each message if I wanted
  958. andy has left
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  960. Maranda Can you?
  961. Maranda DXMPP!
  962. Maranda isn't anymore certain how much of this discussion is serious and how much is sci-fi.
  963. moparisthebest I guess you could, the premise is a 'person' would be the owner of a certain key, and you'd just respond to whatever JID they told you to at the time
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  1000. Dave Cridland moparisthebest, So the problem with hiding metadata to the server level is that once you add in things like blocklists, it starts to behave pretty badly.
  1001. Dave Cridland moparisthebest, On the other hand, you can use anonymous MUCs to get what you want quite usefully, if you choose. Still needs sign->encrypt, but MLS actively hides the participants, for example.
  1002. moparisthebest not from the server though Dave Cridland ?
  1003. moparisthebest but yes, you'd have to be careful not to use bookmarks/blocklists/etc when hiding metadata from your server
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  1009. Dave Cridland moparisthebest, MLS hides the metadata entirely, but XMPP needs it visible for routing. So if you use an anonymous MUC, your server knows only that you're talking to a person in the MUC, as does theirs. The MUC server knows both ends, though.
  1010. Zash That's not going to scale tho
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  1013. MattJ Every DXMPP server allows anonymous login and anonymous MUCs. Users each choose a login server at random, and then agree on a MUC JID on a random MUC server...
  1014. Ge0rG MattJ: and then they talk about random stuff in that MUC.
  1015. MattJ What else do you talk about after going to all that effort?
  1016. Ge0rG that reminds me of amateur radio. You build complicated devices to talk to other nerds about the complicated devices you built.
  1017. Maranda Tacos.
  1018. Ge0rG devices, tacos and knee implants.
  1019. Maranda I'd need a shoulder implant more atm probably :P
  1020. Zash Sounds like how GNU Social was a social network for talking about GNU Social
  1021. Ge0rG I need a gatling gun implant.
  1022. Zash Or how 3D printers are devices for producing parts for 3D printers
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  1024. moparisthebest Dave Cridland, xmpp needs only certain parts for routing, not all the parts it has now
  1025. moparisthebest it just needs the last and next hop, not both endpoints
  1026. Dave Cridland moparisthebest, Sure. That's basically Tor, right?
  1027. daniel has left
  1028. moparisthebest it's xmpp just with an extra bit
  1029. moparisthebest but, kinda
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  1034. Maranda I'm dead curious to see the practical result.
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  1123. jjrh is there a xep or is anyone working on one for emoji reactions?
  1124. Zash I think there's more than one
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  1126. Zash -xep attaching
  1127. Bunneh Zash: Message Attaching (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
  1128. Zash -xep references
  1129. Bunneh Zash: References (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
  1130. Zash Those, I think?
  1131. SamWhited Those may give you the building blocks to build such a system, but I don't think there's anything standardizing that feature in particular.
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  1134. SamWhited (and I'm not aware of anyone working on it)
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  1136. jjrh buddy sent me https://api.slack.com/docs/message-buttons
  1137. jjrh which is a interesting feature
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  1139. Kev SamWhited: We're not quite there yet, but we're starting to build up References stuff.
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  1141. Kev The issue with emoji reactions is that while sending them is straightforward, dealing with them very much isn't.
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  1143. Kev We need a situation where you request a message from MAM, and you get all the references to it as well, correlated into a useful format so you don't get 30 'likes' in your archive a day later that you somehow have to correlate client-side.
  1144. Zash So References is going to do everything?
  1145. Kev Depends what 'everything' is.
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  1147. Kev I don't see a reason not to use References as the framework for everything that's a reference.
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  1149. Kev But I'm not intending squeezing URL references, emoji reactions, quotes, etc. all into the one XEP.
  1150. Zash I mean, it looks like References and Attaching have some overlap
  1151. Kev They do, yeah.
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  1155. jjrh I have heard from multiple people that emoji reactions are the killer feature of slack
  1156. moparisthebest I still don't get what they give you over a well timed
  1157. jjrh people use them for stuff like "do we have quorum for the XSF boardmeeting?" and you do +1 or whatever
  1158. moparisthebest >:)
  1159. moparisthebest or whatever
  1160. Zash I've learned to take what people say the killer feature is with some salt.
  1161. moparisthebest but I guess I'm oldschool or something
  1162. jjrh well it's more "is emoji reactions the killer feature" and instead of agreeing or disagreeing you do thumbs up or thumbs down. and in theory we can go back in time and go "yeah everyone thought it was a shit idea" without reading the following messages
  1163. Chobbes I mean, emoji reactions don't seem like much, but people like them and get used to using them. They're great for quick agreements on things. Sending smilies and frownies creates a lot more noise.
  1164. Kev Zash: On the one hand, yes.
  1165. moparisthebest seems like it'd be useful on something like twitter, not so much instant messaging
  1166. Kev On the other, people really do get these little features into their workflow and they add value.
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  1168. jjrh not saying it's THE killer feature - but it's a feature I hear - to my surprise - a lot of people use.
  1169. Kev I don't use them as much as some folks, but it's useful.
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  1172. Zash Also, people tend to differ on which feature is the killer feature. Everyone has their own favorite.
  1173. Kev And one message with "30👍" beats a message with 30 replies each just saying 'great' or something by a long margin.
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  1176. Chobbes moparisthebest, a lot of people use that feature with instant messaging. It's shockingly useful. I wouldn't say it's the killer feature, but it's definitely a good feature that's well liked and well used.
  1177. Zash Last week it was stickers. XMPP can't succeed without stickers! It's the killer feature!
  1178. Zash Before that it was something else.
  1179. jjrh what are stickers?
  1180. daniel I'd certainly implement it if someone writes a xep
  1181. Zash Exactly.
  1182. Zash daniel: Or you could implement it and XEP-ify what you did.
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  1184. Kev daniel: It's one of the oh-so-many things on my list.
  1185. Zash The age old question, which comes first, implementation or specification :)
  1186. Kev MAM is the real killer for it, otherwise it's trivial.
  1187. Zash Kev: The problem you talk of, it's basically the same as with corrections, right?
  1188. Kev And receipts.
  1189. Kev Yes.
  1190. Kev Both of which I'm considering reframing in terms of References in the hope that MAM can just be references-aware, and not million-different-things-without-future-proofing aware.
  1191. Zash Aka "graph-like queries on log-style data is messy"
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  1193. Kev Because message logs are actually message forests where each IM message is the root of a tree with leaves of emoji, corrections, receipts, URLs, ...
  1194. Kev Thankfully not at all messy.
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  1202. MattJ Encode messages into a DAG structure, switch to JSON and transport them over HTTP
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  1231. Ge0rG https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80 proto XEP for reactions be here
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  1234. Ge0rG jjrh: ^
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  1243. pep. > Fitzpatrick modifiers; Aggregate or show separately? If aggregate, show unmodified version or most-voted-for version? (I tend to unmodified since the "unrealistic skin tone" is probably least controversial) On Mattermost (and probably slack?) you can click on the reactions that people already sent, to send one of the same type, aggregation here would prevent this
  1244. Ge0rG pep.: what if you make a happy white and a sad black Emoji (slack supports that)? Is that Racial Segregation?
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  1246. Zash We need blue skin tone modifiers
  1247. pep. Ge0rG, do I care?
  1248. pep. :P
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  1250. Zash Scale the font snize?
  1251. Zash Scale the font size?
  1252. pep. Ge0rG, that was sarcastic right?
  1253. Ge0rG pep.: you will care, as soon as the Twitter SJW mob finds out
  1254. Ge0rG pep.: I wish it was
  1255. pep. Well it's already possible on any of the other platforms I'm sure
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  1257. Maranda hmmm how many spim hits consist enough of an offense to justify a s2s ban? 🤔
  1258. Maranda needs a reasonable default.
  1259. pep. Ge0rG, hmm I take that back, I'm not able to find fitzpatrick modified emojis in Mattermost's selection.
  1260. Maranda ... and I know whatever I pick is probably too low :P
  1261. pep. You can input one yourself of course, but not as a reaction I think. Or you'd have to add it manually as a custom emoji maybe
  1262. Maranda math.random(100)?
  1263. Maranda 85!
  1264. Ge0rG Maranda: you don't need to ban domains if you can ban users fast enough
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  1267. pep. Maranda, I would say increase the number of parameters you take into account, not just the number of hits. On what period of time, how often etc.
  1268. Maranda I'm not sure I really need to ban anything, but I'm implementing a logic for modules to temporarily ban remote servers based on hits.
  1269. Maranda (default is 2 days)
  1270. Zash Any local users having any users on the offending server in their roster?
  1271. Zash If not, ban instantly and forever!!!11!!eleven
  1272. Maranda 🤣
  1273. Maranda 85 sounds like a nice number anyways
  1274. Maranda (my year of birth also)
  1275. Maranda and random()'ed too!
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  1278. pep. Ge0rG, in any case if we aggregate we'll get reports like: "My reaction doesn't show up"
  1279. pep. also that's a client impl. detail, right?
  1280. pep. Not a protocol issue
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  1283. Ge0rG pep.: how do you want to achieve consistency without writing such details into the XEP?
  1284. pep. You can suggest that sure
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  1292. Ge0rG On the other hand, not being precise gives us the opportunity to differentiate on quality of implementation.
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  1415. Ge0rG Another instant messaging flame war... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16743055
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  1417. Zash Great, we need more of those!
  1418. Zash !!!
  1419. Zash !!!!!11
  1420. Zash eleven
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  1424. Ge0rG Zash: we need a good setup guide for a modern prosody
  1425. Zash Ge0rG: Thanks for volunteering to work on our docs. :)
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  1428. Ge0rG Zash: thanks for placing that scary big red warning banner at the top of https://prosody.im/doc/public_servers
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  1434. Zash Like the ssl config page?
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