Friday, April 06, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:00:02] <Seve/SouL> Yes, people get scared when hear Jabber, as UsL said, people then to make 'do not like face' saying 'the old old chat thing??' (in case they know it)
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[07:07:50] <Ge0rG> I'm still waiting for a viable alternative proposal that will work without a multi million marketing campaign
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[07:11:35] <Neustradamus> Ge0rG: first migrate the planet to xmpp.org ^^
[07:12:57] <UsL> so I replied in operators@ instead of here.. : S
[07:13:29] <UsL> still havent had my morning coffee :O
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[07:34:05] <edhelas> I have more and more spam each days
[07:34:39] <Ge0rG> UsL: you might associate Jabber with a low-quality implementation, but at least you know what it is about.
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[07:38:27] <edhelas> my only solution for now is to blacklist more and more servers
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[07:54:02] <Guus> I frown upon people not taking their morning coffee ceremony seriously.
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[07:54:13] <Guus> (afk, getting coffee)
[07:54:23] <Ge0rG> Guus: have a nice weekend
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[07:55:14] <Guus> Weekend? We've got an entire workday ahead of us 🙂
[07:56:18] <Ge0rG> Guus: in that case you don't take your morning coffee ceremony sufficiently serious.
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[07:57:03] <intosi> Broken records are broken.
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[07:57:07] <Guus> yes, that was the implied joke.
[07:58:42] <Neustradamus> https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/header_slider/public/display_list/friday.jpg
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[08:04:47] <Maranda> Just one coffee??!!
[08:06:15] *Maranda looks at his the "quadruple" espresso coffee cup.
[08:06:32] <Maranda> s/the//
[08:07:33] *Ge0rG 's got a 475ml on-the-go coffee cup.
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[08:12:13] <Guus> My office is also my kitchen, where the espresso machine is. 😊
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[08:13:00] <intosi> Deliberately keeping my coffee machine two floors down from my office ;)
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[08:37:31] <UsL> yes, that is the case. Still, jabber and the lightbulb feels dated compared to xmpp and the xmpp logo. Is it supposed to be two horns? Or two of those ancient looking baskets that Miss Fortuna held. Cornucopia. Had to look it up.
[08:38:03] <UsL> haha, I'll try to coffee before talking hence forth
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[08:45:12] <Ge0rG> UsL: nobody knows I think.
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[08:45:54] <Ge0rG> There was a long logo discussion last year
[08:45:56] <UsL> the description fits though: "commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers or nuts."
[08:46:04] <UsL> : D
[08:46:19] <UsL> nuts!
[08:46:26] <Ge0rG> The only thing I can agree on. We are all nuts.
[08:46:49] <UsL> that settles it. The logo depicts two cornucopias
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[08:55:10] <Maranda> 🤔
[08:55:12] <Maranda> 🤯
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[08:57:01] <Seve/SouL> I love the XMPP logo
[08:57:09] <Seve/SouL> Feels modern
[08:57:14] <Seve/SouL> (subjective I know)
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[08:59:39] <Maranda> Too bad that normal people can't stop going "what" whenever you mention "ECS-AM-PEE-PEE" who knows maybe it's the two final P ™️. Thoughts?
[09:00:03] <Ge0rG> Maranda: just ask them for their JID then.
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[09:00:10] <Maranda> 😎
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[09:01:09] <Guus> I think the logo form is based on the 'X' in XMPP.
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[09:02:41] <Maranda> UsL was till on the way out of his trip with "cornucopias and stuff" me thinks
[09:02:57] <Maranda> s/till/still/
[09:04:00] <Ge0rG> Maranda: so you are processing urine of former military police personnel? That's noble.
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[09:06:50] <Zash> The pointy bit of speech balloons?
[09:07:07] <Maranda> Ge0rG 🤨 that statement didn't 🖥
[09:07:24] <Maranda> E_CONTEXT
[09:07:27] <Ge0rG> Maranda: ex MP pee.
[09:07:33] <Maranda> Ohh
[09:07:42] <Maranda> 😆
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[09:11:29] <Zash> Members of Parliament?
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[09:26:45] <Holger> Zash, flow: Seems I'm missing something regarding "Blocking of subscription request denials"? What's the problem with the server (1) handling my 'unsubscribed' presence as usual but (2) not forwarding it to the requester?
[09:27:55] <Holger> flow:
> on subsequent incoming requests from the blocked entity have the server send an error (or rejection) presence.

This would clearly violate 0191 ("For presence stanzas (including notifications, subscriptions, and probes), the server MUST NOT respond and MUST NOT return an error"), no?
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[09:29:48] <Ge0rG> Zash: those, too.
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[09:55:20] <flow> Holger, I'm not sure if we talk about the same thing anymore. What I have in mind is: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) B blocks A; at 2 A's server could reject the sub request from the blocked entity
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[09:56:12] <flow> What is the rationale of xep191 becoming a presence blackhole?
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[09:57:42] <Zash> Holger: Possibly an implementation detail. Gets complicated for one plugin to let another do some of the processing for an event but not other.
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[09:58:21] <flow> Holger, you seem to talk about: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) A blocks B; 3) B rejects A's sub request
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[09:58:42] <flow> In which case I'd also say that the server should simply process the rejection (unsubscribed) as usual
[09:58:45] <jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
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[09:59:41] <Zash> flow: You send me a sub request. I block you, then I deny that request. I get an error because I blocked you, and then I get the request sent to me every time I sign in with no way to do anything about it.
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[10:00:16] <Zash> Holger: ^
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[10:00:47] <Holger> flow: No I didn't talk about the latter case but about the one Zash repeated now.
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[10:01:50] <Holger> I can easily see this being meh to implement. I was just wondering whether I got the scenario wrong. Maybe I didn't after all :-)
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[10:02:23] <Zash> Might be a case of "being modular is hard"
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[10:04:09] <flow> You get an error if you send a stanza to an entity you have blocked?
[10:04:15] <Zash> > If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's
> server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a
> <not-acceptable/> error [...]
[10:04:41] <flow> bummer
[10:05:04] <Zash> I suppose you could argue that presence management stanzas are not outbound stanzas.
[10:05:06] <Holger> Zash: So process the stanza and send an error :-)
[10:05:10] <flow> I wonder what's the rationale behind that
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[10:06:40] <Holger> Zash: Hah I thought I'm kidding but seems that's ejabberd's behavior.
[10:07:13] <Holger> Probably does the trick in practice.
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[10:09:38] <Zash> Looks like Prosody would send the not-acceptable error to itself, not to the user, if presence handling was done before blocking.
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[10:10:43] <Holger> Talking to yourself can be healthy.
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[10:11:45] <Zash> We're already breaking another MUST so that you don't get a ton of not-acceptable in response to normal presence broadcasts, in case you've blocked a bunch of subscription=both|from contacts
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[10:12:52] <Ge0rG> what's wrong with that not-acceptable? It allows the client to show the contact as "bad"
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[10:20:46] <Holger> Zash: What MUST are you breaking in that case?
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[10:22:11] <Zash> That same one I quoted above
[10:22:53] <Zash> It doesn't distinguish between presence stanzas sent from the server and those sent from the user.
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[10:23:14] <Zash> Ge0rG: Hmmm
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[10:28:41] <Ge0rG> Can we persist error messages in offline storage/MAM?
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[10:37:25] <Holger> Zash: A presence broadcast qualifies as an attempt "to send an outbound stanza to the JID"?
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[10:41:04] <Zash> How do you know your denial was processed
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[11:11:04] <pep.> GDPR meeting in 5min!
[11:11:10] <Ge0rG> Uh-oh!
[11:11:23] <Ge0rG> I'm totally unprepared.
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[11:16:21] <winfried> Sorry, will be late and have to leave early
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[11:16:53] *Ge0rG attempts to remember who the other GDPR expert was some days ago
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[11:17:38] <pep.> !
[11:17:58] <pep.> jonasw, ?
[11:18:20] <Ge0rG> pep.: jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
[11:18:27] <pep.> okay
[11:19:05] <pep.> Shall we start anyway? Have a look at what's left
[11:19:11] <pep.> winfried, how long do you have
[11:20:02] <Anu> Me?
[11:20:15] <Anu> Where is gdpr meeting? Here?
[11:20:20] <pep.> Appart from the LQ{1,2}, I think we've covered the C2S case pretty much already?
[11:20:22] <pep.> Anu, yes
[11:20:24] <Ge0rG> Anu: here and now, though we are missing some people
[11:20:25] <pep.> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
[11:20:29] <Anu> Also dealing with baby so I might lurk
[11:20:58] <Ge0rG> hi Anu! :)
[11:20:59] <pep.> I'm taking minutes of whatever this will be :p
[11:21:15] <Anu> I’ll try to participate to the best of my ability
[11:22:36] <Ge0rG> It looks like we are missing two participants, including our chair.
[11:23:29] <Ge0rG> I can try to chair a bit, but I'm rather unprepared, so brace for a very loosely organized session
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[11:24:04] <pep.> I guess we'll do it short and plan another date
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[11:25:50] *winfried is present
[11:26:08] <pep.> winfried, ready?
[11:26:08] <Ge0rG> I think we have multiple points that still need to be worked out:
Q1.1d List legal grounds for the processing - that didn't feel quite finished to me, especially regarding federation
Q1.1e Analyse possible consequences
Q1.2: What consequences does the GDPR has for the XMPP server operators
Q1.3: What can/should the XSF do with it?
[11:26:20] <winfried> have to leave at 14:00 CEST (35 minutes from now)
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[11:26:57] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, S2S / federation is still open
[11:26:59] <Ge0rG> I've briefly looked at GDPR work in the IETF, but didn't find something like a WG, it's just a topic in different sub-orgs
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[11:27:55] <Ge0rG> Anu wanted to add more lawyer questions, which I'd like to hear as well
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[11:28:10] <winfried> Anu: yes, please!
[11:28:10] <Ge0rG> Maybe we can ask Board for some budget regarding those.
[11:28:24] <Anu> 1: what level of logging is legal on xmpp servers
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[11:28:59] <Anu> 2: what info (presence/server logs) counts as pii and has to be purged when right to be forgotten is involved
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[11:29:53] <Ge0rG> Anu: I think that server logs are pretty well covered under recital 49
[11:30:14] <winfried> Anu: +1 @ Ge0rG
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[11:30:38] <Ge0rG> http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-49-GDPR.htm
[11:30:39] <winfried> Anu: pii is also quite well defined
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[11:31:28] <Ge0rG> winfried: is it really?
[11:31:47] <Ge0rG> I think there is still no clear consensus whether IP addresses are PII or not ,)
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[11:32:05] <winfried> Ge0rG: they are
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[11:32:29] <winfried> (but IPadresses are a nice edge-case)
[11:32:33] <pep.> I was also told they are. But yeah they might not identify just one individual
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[11:33:03] <Ge0rG> Anu: the questions are also very technical. You'd have to explain to the lawyer how XMPP works, first.
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[11:35:05] <winfried> For the process right now: I propose we take a look at the tasks at hand check if we can do some of them before the next meeting and plan a next meeting...
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[11:35:36] <pep.> sure
[11:36:29] <winfried> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
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[11:37:39] <winfried> I added 'TBD' on some places Q1.1d still needs some more details and from Q1.1e everything is work in progress.
[11:38:10] <Ge0rG> winfried: yeah. We should talk about federation now
[11:38:11] <pep.> I feel Q1.1e is going to be even more speculation than the rest
[11:38:23] <winfried> pep.: yes
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[11:38:45] <Ge0rG> pep.: I think there are some non-speculative parts in e. Like how to do a data retention policy, and how to implement the right to be forgotten
[11:38:52] <winfried> Ge0rG: Yes, starting with Q1.1b on S2S
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[11:39:18] <pep.> Ge0rG, ok I wouldn't have put right to be forgotten in 1.1e
[11:39:25] <winfried> Next TBD Q1.1c on S2S
[11:39:36] <Ge0rG> so let's do S2S 1.1b and c
[11:39:41] <pep.> k
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[11:40:17] <winfried> pep.: 1.1e is *very* speculative
[11:40:42] <Ge0rG> for 1.1b S2S:
- s2s meta-data (IP addresses, hostnames, sessions, probably server logs) - I don't think the GDPR applies
- user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing)
- user content (messages, pubsub, ...)
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[11:41:18] <pep.> s2s meta-data, I think GDPR is out as well, it's not somebody's private info
[11:41:27] <winfried> agree
[11:41:27] <Ge0rG> - MUC history, MUC MAM
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[11:42:14] <pep.> Ok
[11:42:25] <Ge0rG> anything else for 1.1b?
[11:42:41] <winfried> can't think of anything right now
[11:42:44] <pep.> I think that covers pretty much everything
[11:42:45] <Ge0rG> remote components
[11:42:55] <pep.> include pubsub in there then
[11:43:09] <Ge0rG> there is component access to roster, I don't know which kind of data is a transport allowed to access there
[11:43:25] <Anu> 3: when an xmpp opeator is fined is it based on personal income if they are non profit?
[11:43:26] <winfried> remote_vibrator.tilanus.com? ;-)
[11:43:49] <Ge0rG> Anu: 3 -> no
[11:43:50] <pep.> Ge0rG, I would consider that as standard s2s
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[11:44:14] <Ge0rG> Anu: the fine is max(0.04*turnover, 200k€) - so even if you are broke, you can be fined 200k€
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[11:45:43] <winfried> Who can add this to the wiki? One TBD down then!
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[11:46:03] <pep.> winfried, I'm taking the minutes
[11:46:11] <Ge0rG> pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html#request_roster
[11:46:25] <winfried> pep.: thanks!
[11:46:50] <pep.> Ge0rG, hmm
[11:47:04] <Ge0rG> Remote Roster Management requires explicit user consent, and provides information about it, so I suppose this is well covered by the existing legal framework
[11:47:15] <Ge0rG> However, I'd like to have Remote Roster Management explicitly listed as a data type
[11:47:25] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[11:47:29] <winfried> good catch
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[11:47:37] <pep.> cool
[11:48:31] <Ge0rG> next: Q1.1c
[11:49:14] <winfried> - transfer to an other controller
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[11:49:54] <winfried> - archiving (MAM, MAM on MUC)
[11:50:17] <Ge0rG> - s2s meta-data - typically just inside of server logs, so R49 probably applies
- user meta-data: all transfer requires (implicit) user consent - by joining a MUC or sending a message to somebody or accepting a subscription
[11:50:18] <pep.> I had a legalese 101 question, what is meant by "third-party country" in chapter 5? Does that mean it only applies when transfering data to *other* countries?
[11:50:27] <Ge0rG> pep.: non-EU
[11:51:06] <winfried> pep.: transfer to non-EU is also a possible processing here....
[11:51:32] <pep.> So they always use this third-party country term from what I gathered, where is transfer within EU entites defined then
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[11:52:56] <winfried> pep.: No, 5 is about transfer out the EU
[11:53:20] <pep.> I see
[11:53:21] <Ge0rG> winfried: does it matter if we do s2s inside or outside the EU?
[11:53:27] <winfried> Ge0rG: Yes
[11:53:35] <Ge0rG> then we need to separate that
[11:53:45] <winfried> outside chapter 5 applies, inside not
[11:53:56] <pep.> That's going to be fun
[11:54:07] <winfried> *big time*
[11:54:09] <pep.> Zash, be prepared to see a mod_gdpr appear at some point :p
[11:54:34] <winfried> pep.: before may the 25th :-P
[11:54:45] <pep.> heh
[11:55:00] <winfried> I have to leave soon :-(
[11:55:09] <winfried> new appointment?
[11:55:11] <pep.> Ok, we should do date of next
[11:55:25] <pep.> I'm free anytime. monday same time?
[11:55:49] <winfried> wfm
[11:55:58] <winfried> though monday better a bit earlier
[11:56:24] <pep.> What time?
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[11:56:59] <winfried> starting between 9:00 and 12:00 CEST works the best for me
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[11:57:25] <Ge0rG> I can starting 10:30CEST
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[11:57:32] <winfried> jonasw: any possibility?
[11:57:37] <pep.> err that's 9:30am here ><
[11:57:39] <pep.> I'll have to get up
[11:57:42] <pep.> But ok
[11:58:25] <pep.> winfried, jonasw is not here. will try to ping him during the weekend
[11:58:35] <winfried> pep.: thanks
[11:58:36] <pep.> So monday 10:30CEST it is then?
[11:58:42] <winfried> yes
[11:58:55] <pep.> cool, *bang*
[11:59:12] <winfried> CU!
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[12:00:59] <pep.> Ge0rG, I would rename your "user meta-data" above in Q1.1c to "user data", it's talking about messages etc.
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[12:01:38] <Ge0rG> pep.: no, it's message routing metadata
[12:02:40] <pep.> Ok so we still have to cover user content then, that works
[12:02:49] <pep.> Though winfried mentioned MAM etc.
[12:03:07] <Ge0rG> MAM contains both
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[12:06:05] <pep.> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/Zc1c+aBtFP-49TYSX0T+7g/VcSdjDmU9rC0crMKwQyiehe9/ what I have for now. I'll have another read after lunch
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[12:14:01] <Anu> Meeting still happening?
[12:14:09] <Ge0rG> Anu: nope
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[12:14:22] <Anu> Aw ok
[12:14:29] <Anu> Looks like it was productive
[12:14:48] <Anu> Mod gdpr will probably be needed
[12:15:34] <Anu> Honestly gdpr is the biggest gift to walled garden monolithic messaging systems. Unless you control the whole stack it’s hard to be compliant
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[12:16:53] <Anu> I’m wondering if xmpp will even be legal. It was made from another time and merrily leaks ip addresses to other servers
[12:17:21] <Anu> E.g push servers get device ips
[12:17:40] <Ge0rG> Anu: push servers like Google and Apple? They have your IP anyway
[12:18:07] <Ge0rG> Anu: I don't see how XMPP is different from email
[12:18:13] <Anu> No push like push.monal.im that use Apple to push to your device
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[12:19:35] <Anu> I know chatsecure and conversations have similar push servers
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[12:21:35] <Holger> Anu: Registration with the push service for Conversations works without revealing the IP address, though.
[12:22:24] <Ge0rG> Anu: push.monal.im talks to your XMPP server and to Apple APNS, not to the client
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[12:22:29] <pep.> Yeah it's quite similar to email and I don't think they'd want to get rid of this. Also I didn't see anything federation specific in Google's policies
[12:22:29] <Anu> The out of band registration will log the device ip on the push server
[12:22:32] <Holger> (It's done via XMPP, i.e. routed over your server.)
[12:22:51] <Holger> Anu: In your case, yes.
[12:23:04] <Ge0rG> Anu: that's not part of the XEP, is it?
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[12:23:22] <Holger> Right, the XEP doesn't specify how to register.
[12:23:23] <Anu> Or I’m mixing protocols :( hold on
[12:23:29] <Anu> Let me see
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[12:24:37] <Ge0rG> so should I switch my father-in-law from ChatSecure to Monal now?
[12:24:56] <Holger> Anu: AFAIK clients register against push.monal.im via HTTP and thereby reveal their IP address (short of using some proxy), yes. I'm just saying it doesn't have to work this way, and doesn't for Conversations (but also for ChatSecure IIRC).
[12:25:08] <Anu> Not yet . I haven’t published the libsignal stuff
[12:25:18] <Ge0rG> Anu: no need for E2EE, just chat and http-upload
[12:25:23] <Ge0rG> not even MUCs
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[12:27:33] <Anu> Bah you know I I’m tired when I don’t remember how my own push service works :(
[12:28:29] <Anu> Oh right it’s s2s in with token info
[12:28:50] <Anu> Tokens should be suitably pseudoanonymized
[12:29:00] <Holger> Anu: The actual registration step is via HTTP, AFAIK :-)
[12:29:16] <Anu> Ok
[12:29:17] <Anu> The rest call
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[12:29:34] <Holger> Yeah.
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[12:29:43] <Holger> https://github.com/tmolitor-stud-tu/mod_push_appserver
[12:30:16] <Anu> Phew I thought I was thinking of another protocol
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[12:30:53] <Holger> :-)
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[12:31:08] <jonasw> monday 10:30 CEST wfm if we don’t draw it out too long, Ge0rG, winfried
[12:31:12] <jonasw> I’d like to leave at 11:30 CEST
[12:31:30] <Anu> No joke I have like four of them swirling in my head and they are all usually very similar
[12:31:39] <Ge0rG> Holger: is there a TL;DR about setting up push on an xmpp server the right way?
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[12:33:21] <Holger> Ge0rG: For ejabberd you enable mod_push and mod_push_keepalive, but that's probably not what you meant?
[12:33:27] <pep.> jonasw: cool
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[12:33:48] <Ge0rG> Holger: yeah, in retrospect it was pretty dumb to ask you things about my server.
[12:34:13] <daniel> I think the process on prosody isn't much harder
[12:34:28] <Anu> Yeah it’s pretty straightforward on prosody
[12:34:54] <Anu> That’s what I use
[12:34:59] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure if it's ChatSecure then that's borked, or if my father-in-law can't properly use his phone.
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[12:35:28] <Holger> mod_cloud_notify now supports the mod_push_keepalive magic AFAIK, at least partly.
[12:35:37] <daniel> I think for chatsecure you might want to look at the patched mod_cloud_notifiy
[12:35:43] <Holger> Hm or maybe not.
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[12:35:58] <daniel> Don't ask me why that isn't mainline though
[12:36:03] <Ge0rG> daniel: patched where?
[12:36:05] <Holger> It is now.
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[12:36:10] <Holger> Well a variant of it.
[12:36:18] <Ge0rG> since when?
[12:36:21] <Holger> (The same variant I'm going for with ejabberd.)
[12:36:23] <Ge0rG> So many questions. All off topic
[12:36:26] <Anu> Is the keep alive to keep the connection open?
[12:36:27] <daniel> Holger: a variant that is compat with Chatsecure?
[12:36:31] <Holger> daniel: Yes.
[12:36:35] <daniel> Cool
[12:36:35] <Anu> Why?
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[12:37:14] <daniel> Anu: it's to check if the connection is still alive and if not send a push as a wakeup signal
[12:37:15] <Holger> Anu: It's to keep the stream management session open, yes. Mostly to make push notifications work for MUC messages.
[12:37:22] <Anu> Isn’t the whole point that we use the push to signal time to wake up
[12:37:25] <Anu> ah
[12:37:37] <Anu> Oh man so do you guys see me going offline constantly?
[12:37:37] <Holger> Anu: The client disconnects but the session remains alive.
[12:37:50] <Anu> Ah cool that’s exactly what I need!
[12:38:13] <Anu> I’ve only been using Monal with muc and push
[12:38:14] <Holger> Anu: For this to work, you must close the TCP session without terminating the XMPP stream.
[12:38:21] <Anu> Yes
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[12:38:31] <Anu> And resume it ok wake up
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[12:38:59] <Ge0rG> The next thing we need to design: MUC notification filtering, where the mobile client doesn't need to be joined all the time but can connect and MAM-sync when the user is highlighted
[12:39:02] <Anu> Thats what I do now but user showing up as offline when I close the tcp connection has been driving me nuts
[12:39:04] <Holger> Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html
[12:39:32] <Holger> Anu: I'm not sure whether mod_cloud_notify can be configured to do that.
[12:40:09] <Ge0rG> prosody will keep the session visible as online as long as smacks doesn't kill the zombie
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[12:41:49] <Anu> I’m thinking about a completely non invasive fix for this on the client side. Ditch offline, it’s not really a thing anymore. It doesn’t solve the muc issue though
[12:42:21] <Holger> Ge0rG: But there's no hack to increase the timeout for the push case?
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[12:43:31] <Ge0rG> Anu: "offline" is a limited use case, but "dnd" is rather important, I'd say
[12:44:26] <Holger> Ge0rG: Wouldn't you just silence your phone rather than hoping your contacts will respect that status?
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[12:45:01] <jonasw> Holger, but letting contacts know that they won’t have success with sending you a message is probably nice?
[12:45:19] <jonasw> also maybe a thing which lets a sender override that dnd silence if and only if they are in some whitelist
[12:45:30] <Holger> I think "last activity" is a better indicator for success chances.
[12:45:33] <Ge0rG> Holger: my jabber goes dnd when I silence my phone.
[12:45:36] <jonasw> e.g. "people from the family group may circumvent phone dnd (raise a priority notification) if asked for"
[12:45:51] <Holger> jonasw: I mean in theory I see your point but in practice presence status is just always wrong.
[12:45:58] <jonasw> Holger, is it?
[12:45:58] <Ge0rG> Holger: I think "last activity" is a nice addon to proper dnd signaling
[12:46:21] <jonasw> Ge0rG, if I had that setting, I would always be dnd :)
[12:46:42] <jonasw> it would be great if the presence was reflected by the actual DND status of the phone.
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[12:46:48] <Holger> Ge0rG: My phone does the same, but I'm often available despite my phone being quiet. It's just always wrong.
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[12:47:05] <jonasw> (not sure if this is lineageos specific, but it has a neat DND mode where you can say either priority only, alarms only or total silence for N hours)
[12:47:09] <jonasw> (or by time)
[12:47:32] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that lineageos mode is fucking with my brains.
[12:47:44] <jonasw> how?
[12:48:10] <Ge0rG> there used to be (silent+alarms|vibration|normal) and then they split up the first one into two different ones
[12:48:19] <Ge0rG> and one of them ended up also silencing the alarm.
[12:48:27] <Ge0rG> Really, who on earth wants their alarm silenced?
[12:48:59] <pep.> I say it's a valid use case
[12:49:00] <jonasw> there is probably a use-case for that.
[12:49:12] <jonasw> think small children wihch might be woken up or something, meetings of indefinite duration, …
[12:49:39] <Ge0rG> ...coming late to work.
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[12:52:47] <jonasw> that only happened when it -- I think -- didn’t reset the alarm volume after I accidentally triggered total silence
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[12:57:14] <Anu> My phone is permanent silenced haha
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[12:57:26] <Anu> I don’t even know what my alert tones are
[12:57:47] <Anu> But that might be a very narrow use case.
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[12:58:54] <Anu> I honestly think one problem for xmpp is that there are mobile and desktop clients. Mobile will almost never be offline or away
[12:59:00] <Anu> Desktop might be.
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[12:59:33] <Ge0rG> Anu: there are people shutting down wifi and mobile data over night
[12:59:44] <Anu> Really? That’s a thing?
[12:59:51] <Ge0rG> Anu: and there are people going outside of network coverage for hours
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[13:00:01] <jonasw> Anu, it is a thing, I’m one of them
[13:00:13] <Ge0rG> my worst case is to take long phones when on 2G
[13:00:13] <jonasw> my phones battery doesn’t like if conversations is in 20 MUCs overnight for no reason.
[13:00:35] <Ge0rG> jonasw: but it is there for a reason!
[13:00:38] <Anu> Haha
[13:00:42] <Ge0rG> you could miss an xmpp rant!
[13:00:45] <Holger> Anu: I'm not sure the presence status is really that useful on the desktop either.
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[13:01:11] <Anu> I’ve been thinking a lot about my ui choices and how they are rooted in 90s tech
[13:01:25] <Anu> I still have status under the username in the contact list
[13:01:26] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I can read up on XMPP rants in poezio :>
[13:01:34] <Anu> No one pays status anymore
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[13:01:42] <Anu> Posts
[13:01:50] <Anu> It was a proto Twitter
[13:01:59] <Ge0rG> Anu: Kev suggested to rework status from a per-client thing to a per-account thing. It would make more sense then
[13:02:49] <Holger> Ge0rG: Would the result be much different from how clients show presence today?
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[13:03:55] <Seve/SouL> I have my alarm silenced by the way
[13:03:55] <Ge0rG> Holger: probably not
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[13:04:19] <Seve/SouL> I wake up just with the phone's vibration (although I usually wake up some minutes before it starts)
[13:04:25] <Zash> pep.: Make it so
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[13:05:08] <pep.> Not exactly sure what would go in there though
[13:05:20] <Ge0rG> Anu: is there a Monal iOS beta program?
[13:05:33] <pep.> `forbid_non_compliant_s2s = true` :o
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[13:06:46] <Ge0rG> Anu: if I "delete this account" from Monal, will it delete the account on the server or just the client setup for it?
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[13:08:16] <Ge0rG> hm. the latest version is a year old and doesn't show contact names, but shows multiple JIDs per contact.
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[13:18:35] <Maranda> EU is becoming a mass of demented nonsense, well it was already but now it's even more.
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[13:20:32] *Maranda waits for the "comprehensible TODO" summary about GDPR.
[13:21:10] <Maranda> Without the vomiting lagalese included. 😠
[13:21:26] <pep.> You'll have to deal with that vomiting legalese anyway
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[13:49:38] <Maranda> Not all of that pepe, I'm sure that 80% is as usual incomprehensible blah blah that ends in a possible "compression ratio" of 3/4
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[13:50:09] <LNJ> I started implementing SIMS (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html) in my XMPP client. The XEP tells me that data sent using Bits of Binary (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html) is stored on the server, but I can't find any definition of a protocol to send such data to the server. Also e.g. prosody says that the Bits of Binary XEP is server independant and thus works even if the server doesn't support it. I also can't find an implementation for ejabberd. Can somebody explain that? :D
[13:50:33] <Ge0rG> hey LNJ, you are working on Kaidan, right?
[13:50:35] <Anu> Ge0rg: will not delete from server.
[13:50:45] <Anu> There is a beta I can invite you to
[13:50:46] <LNJ> Ge0rg: Yep, that's right
[13:50:51] <daniel> LNJ: you basically just put base64 stuff in the same stanza
[13:50:54] <Ge0rG> Anu: yes please
[13:50:58] <daniel> On the root level of the stanza
[13:51:11] <LNJ> So of the root level of the SIMS Stanza?
[13:51:23] <daniel> No on the root level of the message stanza
[13:51:35] <LNJ> Ah ok
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[13:51:57] <daniel> And then the Sims reference references that
[13:52:23] <LNJ> But isn't the BoB XEP saying to not include the data directly, if it's larger than ~1 KiB?
[13:52:31] <daniel> Yew
[13:52:33] <daniel> Yes
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[13:52:46] <LNJ> Ok, so I'll just ignore that fact ...
[13:52:54] <LNJ> :D
[13:52:58] <daniel> Ignore that. But keep them reasonable small I guess
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[13:53:11] <Ge0rG> daniel: is SIMS the new OOB?
[13:53:24] <daniel> The entire stanza including mam overhead should be less than 10k bytes
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[13:53:52] <daniel> I was planning on generating thumbs with 2kb or 3
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[13:54:11] <LNJ> Ok then it should into 10 kB
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[13:54:28] <LNJ> * should fit
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[13:55:09] <daniel> Just to be clear you could request bob from the other party in an iq request as well
[13:55:19] <daniel> That defeats the stateless part though
[13:55:30] <daniel> But bob would allow you to do that
[13:55:53] <daniel> Ge0rG: some people want it to be the new oob
[13:55:59] <daniel> I'm not entirely convinced
[13:56:16] <daniel> Partially because of the weirdness I've just talked about
[13:56:48] <Ge0rG> References has weirdness, SIMS does, OOB does too (in the IQ section)
[13:56:50] <LNJ> But that's not very nice if the other use has to be online. But I'll implement that as well, just for the case. :D
[13:56:52] <Ge0rG> Madness everywhere
[13:57:08] <Zash> People are weird
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[13:58:33] <daniel> I'm relatively convinced that the way I just described it is the way it is supposed to work (sticking it in the root of the message). However that is entirely unclear after reading the xep
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[13:59:05] <Ge0rG> daniel: will you replace OOB with SIMS? References?
[13:59:51] <daniel> Replace. Probably not. Maybe I do both. I'm mostly in it for the thumbs
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[14:00:04] <daniel> While other people are in it for the mime tag
[14:00:11] <daniel> *most other people
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[14:00:35] <daniel> But ux wise this opens a can of worms on the Conversations side
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[14:00:52] <daniel> That's why i have been pushing this off
[14:01:18] <jonasw> hm, the last argument of yours on this I heard was "how does it work with e2ee"?
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[14:02:15] <Ge0rG> daniel: btw, how does Conversations handle non-picture uploads like PDF, or pictures that are attached instead of recompressed?
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[14:02:22] <daniel> it doesn't. but i don’t care. i'm just doing thumbs different in omemo
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[14:02:45] <jonasw> so, virtually everywhere?
[14:02:51] <daniel> :-)
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[14:03:02] <daniel> public mucs
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[14:03:12] <jonasw> so you’d auto-download/show content in public MUCs?
[14:03:18] <daniel> that's where thumbs will be used most of the time anyway
[14:03:25] <daniel> because they are not auto downloaded
[14:03:30] <daniel> unlike the rest of conversations
[14:03:51] <jonasw> ah I wa sthinking you were replacing auto-download with auto-show-thumbs-and-tap-for-full-version
[14:04:23] <daniel> mhhh maybe not. i still think i'll be autodownloading files by default
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[14:04:38] <daniel> users can always turn that of. and having thumbs might make that more attractive
[14:04:56] <daniel> haven't thought about that before you brought that up
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[14:05:10] <jonasw> maybe auto-fetch thumbs and download full versions when and only while the conversation is in view?
[14:05:52] <daniel> yeah maybe. first things first though. implement thumbs and aftewards we can maybe think about changing the auto download defaults
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[14:07:24] <daniel> Ge0rG, things that exceed the auto download size currently have a normal button that says 'donwload pdf document'
[14:07:39] <daniel> or download mime/type if it's not well known
[14:07:56] *Maranda wonders how'll that work with gdpr.
[14:08:11] <Maranda> (auto fetching thumbs)
[14:08:20] <daniel> and files for which i do not have a thumbnail after download will just display an open $foo button
[14:08:27] <Ge0rG> you leak your IP if you are browsing images in any random web forum, so meh.
[14:08:50] <Ge0rG> daniel: if you plan to auto-download, there is no need to pursue thumbs. Except for huge files
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[14:09:20] <Maranda> Ge0rG, *made in legalese*
[14:09:20] <daniel> yes like i said the way it currently works they will mostly be shown in mucs
[14:09:29] <daniel> where i don't have auto download
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[14:09:56] <daniel> but they open the door to changing the auto download behaviour as jonas and i were just discussing
[14:10:06] <daniel> plus fancy
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[14:27:42] <Ge0rG> LNJ: do you happen to have a Kaidan MUC?
[14:28:15] <LNJ> Well ... yes, but after file uploads
[14:28:36] <LNJ> AH .. you mean a channel
[14:28:54] <Ge0rG> LNJ: yes. A place where I can bother you without going through github
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[14:29:28] <LNJ> Yes there was one at kaidan@conference.siacs.eu .. but I'd prefer a new on the new kaidan.im server
[14:29:37] <LNJ> Wait, I'll create one ..
[14:29:43] <Seve/SouL> Thanks, LNJ.
[14:30:30] *Ge0rG was hosting the inofficial dino MUC for a while, until the devs finally made their own one
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[14:33:04] <LNJ> xmpp:kaidan@muc.kaidan.im?join
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[14:33:31] <LNJ> ... wait need to configure my dns
[14:34:19] <LNJ> Haven't used muc before on that server
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[15:46:26] <moparisthebest> yay it's back https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-02
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[15:52:11] <moparisthebest> they also thankfully mention hiding ALPN using the same mechanisms
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[16:29:51] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:31:23] *** lovetox has joined the room
[16:32:26] *** jere has joined the room
[16:33:04] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[16:33:06] *** lumi shows as "online"
[16:33:55] *** ludo has joined the room
[16:36:38] *** marmistrz has left the room
[16:36:49] *** Martin has left the room
[16:38:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:38:34] *** alexis has left the room
[16:38:44] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:38:50] *** valo has joined the room
[16:39:10] *** Zash has left the room
[16:39:10] *** Zash has left the room
[16:39:23] *** Zash has joined the room
[16:39:24] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:40:34] *** daniel has left the room
[16:41:55] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:41:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:42:58] *** ludo has left the room
[16:43:00] *** ludo has joined the room
[16:43:09] *** waqas has left the room
[16:43:48] *** jubalh has left the room
[16:45:06] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[16:45:11] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:45:11] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:45:24] *** alexis has left the room
[16:45:34] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:47:18] *** Guus has left the room
[16:47:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:47:20] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:49:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:49:47] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:49:50] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Weekend"
[16:49:53] *** daniel has left the room
[16:52:11] *** alexis has left the room
[16:52:19] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:56:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:56:40] *** winfried has left the room
[16:56:43] *** winfried has joined the room
[16:56:51] *** waqas has joined the room
[16:56:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:56:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:57:41] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:57:42] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:57:57] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[16:58:32] *** winfried shows as "online"
[16:58:33] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[16:58:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[16:58:59] *** UsL has joined the room
[16:59:02] *** alexis has left the room
[16:59:10] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:59:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:00:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:02:38] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:02:38] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:02:39] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:02:44] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:02:44] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:02:57] *** winfried shows as "online"
[17:03:21] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:03:31] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[17:03:47] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:03:59] *** jubalh has joined the room
[17:04:00] *** ludo has left the room
[17:04:01] *** ludo has joined the room
[17:05:21] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:05:53] *** alexis has left the room
[17:06:02] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:06:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:07:08] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:07:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:07:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:08:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:08:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:08:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:10:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:10:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:10:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:10:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:10:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:11:31] *** Valerian has left the room
[17:13:14] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[17:13:47] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:14:23] *** daniel has left the room
[17:14:38] *** tux has joined the room
[17:16:58] *** alexis has left the room
[17:17:10] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:18:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:19:21] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:19:46] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[17:20:53] *** andy has left the room
[17:20:57] *** andy has joined the room
[17:21:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:21:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:22:00] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:22:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:22:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:23:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:23:37] *** ludo shows as "online"
[17:25:46] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:25:53] *** alexis has left the room
[17:25:56] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[17:26:02] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:26:03] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:26:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:26:52] *** Nekit has joined the room
[17:28:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:28:53] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:29:01] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[17:29:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:29:51] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[17:31:56] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:32:23] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:34:26] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:34:41] *** daniel has left the room
[17:34:43] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:34:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:35:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:35:47] *** j.r has joined the room
[17:36:24] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:36:49] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:38:09] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[17:39:46] *** winfried has left the room
[17:39:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:40:28] *** alexis has left the room
[17:40:57] *** daniel has left the room
[17:41:51] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:42:23] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:43:15] *** remko has joined the room
[17:43:15] *** remko shows as "online"
[17:43:54] *** andy has left the room
[17:44:09] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:44:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:45:00] *** ludo has left the room
[17:45:15] *** rion has left the room
[17:45:15] *** ta has joined the room
[17:45:18] *** rion has joined the room
[17:45:19] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:45:20] *** ludo shows as "online"
[17:46:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:47:09] *** Alex has joined the room
[17:48:24] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[17:48:32] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:48:39] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[17:48:44] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:50:12] *** winfried shows as "online"
[17:50:16] *** andy has joined the room
[17:50:56] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[17:51:01] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[17:51:46] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:52:36] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:53:32] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[17:53:32] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[17:54:00] *** Guus has left the room
[17:54:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:54:19] *** blabla shows as "online"
[17:54:42] *** daniel has left the room
[17:54:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:56:12] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:56:15] *** andy has left the room
[17:57:53] *** alexis has left the room
[17:58:05] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:58:50] *** marc has left the room
[17:59:54] *** remko has left the room
[18:00:04] *** Alex has left the room
[18:00:05] *** alexis has left the room
[18:00:10] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:00:16] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:00:16] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:00:37] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:01:44] *** winfried has left the room
[18:01:45] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:02:27] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[18:02:40] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:02:42] *** andy has joined the room
[18:02:56] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:02:56] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:02:58] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[18:03:05] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is "ded"
[18:03:15] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[18:03:30] *** daniel has left the room
[18:03:45] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:04:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:05:02] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:05:31] *** Guus has left the room
[18:05:45] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[18:05:49] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[18:05:59] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:07:06] *** ludo has left the room
[18:07:07] *** blabla has left the room
[18:07:08] *** ludo shows as "online"
[18:10:51] *** daniel has left the room
[18:11:45] *** ludo has left the room
[18:14:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:14:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:14:12] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[18:14:23] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:14:40] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:15:54] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "afk"
[18:16:01] *** jubalh has joined the room
[18:16:02] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:16:31] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:17:35] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:19:48] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:22:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:24:57] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:25:53] *** valo has left the room
[18:25:57] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:26:40] *** ThibG has left the room
[18:26:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:27:02] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[18:27:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:27:06] *** ThibG has joined the room
[18:27:10] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:27:23] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:27:52] *** daniel has left the room
[18:28:02] *** Maranda has left the room
[18:28:26] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[18:28:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:28:44] *** ludo shows as "online"
[18:29:17] *** marc has left the room
[18:29:34] *** remko has joined the room
[18:29:34] *** remko shows as "online"
[18:29:44] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:30:08] *** remko has left the room
[18:30:18] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:30:18] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[18:30:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:31:09] *** andy has left the room
[18:31:54] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:34:12] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:34:32] *** Zash shows as "online"
[18:35:06] *** ralphm has joined the room
[18:35:45] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:36:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:36:20] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:36:20] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[18:37:11] *** daniel has left the room
[18:38:36] *** jere has left the room
[18:40:11] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:40:31] *** Lance has left the room
[18:41:31] *** Guus has left the room
[18:42:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:42:40] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "here (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[18:42:44] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:44:06] *** jere has joined the room
[18:44:12] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:44:15] *** andy has joined the room
[18:44:16] *** waqas has left the room
[18:44:20] *** andy has left the room
[18:44:22] *** andy has joined the room
[18:47:24] *** lumi has left the room
[18:48:01] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[18:48:50] *** daniel has left the room
[18:48:52] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:49:24] *** ibikk has joined the room
[18:50:15] *** lumi has joined the room
[18:51:10] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[18:51:10] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:55:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:56:16] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[18:57:11] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[18:58:10] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:58:18] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:59:22] *** goffi shows as "online"
[19:01:49] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:03:16] *** goffi has left the room
[19:08:27] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[19:10:23] *** ludo has left the room
[19:11:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:15:57] *** Valerian has left the room
[19:16:10] *** Valerian has joined the room
[19:17:36] *** jere has left the room
[19:17:40] *** jere has joined the room
[19:20:00] *** Valerian has left the room
[19:22:50] *** j.r has joined the room
[19:23:08] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:24:14] *** ta shows as "online"
[19:27:05] *** daniel has left the room
[19:32:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:32:49] *** andy has left the room
[19:32:49] *** andy has joined the room
[19:33:21] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:33:22] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
[19:33:41] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:34:17] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:35:50] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:36:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:37:30] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "here (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[19:37:34] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[19:37:53] *** daniel has left the room
[19:38:33] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:38:50] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[19:38:50] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
[19:39:33] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:40:27] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:40:27] *** ThurahT shows as "away"
[19:40:32] *** ludo shows as "online"
[19:40:34] *** waqas has joined the room
[19:41:26] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[19:41:30] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[19:41:53] *** daniel has left the room
[19:42:39] *** daniel has joined the room
[19:44:06] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:44:48] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:44:59] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:45:06] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[19:45:31] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[19:46:27] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:46:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:47:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:47:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:48:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:48:08] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:48:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:48:33] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:49:04] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[19:50:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:51:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:51:25] *** andy has left the room
[19:51:26] *** andy has joined the room
[19:52:22] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:52:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:54:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:54:07] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:57:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:58:03] *** tux has left the room
[19:58:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:58:46] *** ludo has left the room
[19:59:03] *** daniel has left the room
[20:00:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:00:39] *** valo has joined the room
[20:00:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:05:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:06:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:07:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:09:02] *** UsL shows as "online"
[20:09:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:10:30] *** ludo shows as "online"
[20:11:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:11:45] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[20:12:01] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[20:12:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:12:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:14:08] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:14:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:16:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:17:07] *** marmistrz has left the room
[20:17:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:18:16] *** daniel has left the room
[20:18:39] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:19:44] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:19:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:20:46] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:21:58] *** Holger has left the room
[20:22:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:22:55] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:22:59] *** Holger shows as "online"
[20:23:16] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:23:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:23:27] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
[20:23:36] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[20:25:06] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[20:26:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:26:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:27:49] *** boothj5 has joined the room
[20:28:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:29:01] *** Alex has joined the room
[20:29:02] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:30:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:30:05] *** Lance has joined the room
[20:30:06] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:30:29] *** boothj5 has left the room
[20:31:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:31:31] *** Lance has left the room
[20:32:26] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:32:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:32:30] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:33:20] *** andy has left the room
[20:33:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:34:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:35:52] *** ludo has left the room
[20:35:57] *** ludo shows as "online"
[20:36:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:37:00] *** andy has joined the room
[20:37:35] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:38:43] *** daniel has left the room
[20:39:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:40:45] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:41:03] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:41:27] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:42:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:43:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:44:42] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:44:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:46:43] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[20:49:24] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:49:27] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:50:18] *** jubalh has left the room
[20:52:06] *** Holger has left the room
[20:52:10] *** Holger shows as "online"
[20:52:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:53:16] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "here (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[20:53:39] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:54:06] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[20:54:15] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:56:03] *** andy has left the room
[20:56:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:57:14] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:57:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:57:57] *** daniel has left the room
[20:58:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:58:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:58:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:59:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:00:17] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "here (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[21:00:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:01:46] *** Nekit has left the room
[21:02:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:02:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:03:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:04:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:06:23] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[21:06:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:07:21] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:08:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:08:17] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[21:08:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[22:43:59] <Ge0rG> Looks like our editors are on Easter holidays.
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