Tuesday, April 10, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:50:15] <Ge0rG> Kev: is there any progress on the 0050 PRs?
[07:50:33] <Kev> There isn't.
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[07:53:48] <Ge0rG> Kev: any more ideas regarding the pidgin re-addition to the client list?
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[07:55:13] <Kev> I haven't given it any thought, do I need to?
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[09:09:19] <Ge0rG> I wonder if it's possible to instrument something like shodan to search for XMPP servers.
[09:09:54] <MattJ> Sure
[09:10:10] <Ge0rG> I mean, we need to send the client banner first, right?
[09:10:20] <MattJ> I've used it to discover Prosody instances
[09:10:34] <Ge0rG> MattJ: oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about it.
[09:10:38] <MattJ> I don't know exactly what it sends, but it triggers an error response
[09:10:52] <MattJ> Prosody's particular error message is unique, so searching for it yields results
[09:10:53] <Ge0rG> `GET / HTTP/1.0`?
[09:10:58] <MattJ> Quite possibly
[09:11:26] <MattJ> I suspect it understands XMPP somewhat though, but obviously you can't determine the host from the IP address so it still doesn't work
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[10:24:11] <pep.> gdpr meeting in ~5
[10:24:16] <jonasw> what
[10:24:17] <jonasw> crap
[10:24:18] <jonasw> I totally forgot
[10:24:33] <jonasw> I need to marinate some meat first, so I’ll be a bit AFK-ish
[10:24:36] <pep.> it's 12:30CEST right?
[10:24:38] <jonasw> yeah
[10:24:44] <pep.> hehe
[10:24:45] <jonasw> taking the laptop with me
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[10:29:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, winfried, ping
[10:29:37] <winfried> Guys, sorry, I will be the available in 10 minutes
[10:30:08] <pep.> I'll put stuff on the wiki then, I sent the minutes quite late yesterday
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[10:30:24] <jonasw> sounds good
[10:30:37] <Ge0rG> 10 minutes for me as well
[10:31:00] <jonasw> what a perfect fit
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[10:31:55] <Ge0rG> pep.: 👍
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[10:35:01] <pep.> Hmm, so we already had a bit on 1.1c for s2s in the wiki, not as detailed
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[10:37:08] <winfried> here I am
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[10:37:28] <Ge0rG> AOL!
[10:37:58] *winfried hears an echo from long ago
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[10:41:51] <Ge0rG> It looks like we all might be there.
[10:41:56] <winfried> yes
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[10:42:07] <jonasw> .
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[10:42:43] <pep.> !
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[10:44:31] <pep.> *bang*?
[10:44:38] <jonasw> baaang
[10:44:42] <jonasw> winfried, are you going to chair?
[10:44:48] <winfried> *bang*
[10:45:28] <winfried> do we have enough on 1.1a-c?
[10:45:40] <pep.> S2S outbound on 1.1c?
[10:45:50] <pep.> did we cover that?
[10:46:20] <pep.> I guess the inbound covers more or less both actually
[10:46:44] <Ge0rG> what happened to transports?
[10:46:59] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, noticed that one too
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[10:47:40] <winfried> transport will be a processing to cover in c2s too!
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[10:47:48] <Ge0rG> 1.1c inbound and outbound is symmetrical, i.e. there is no need to differentiate. we need to differentiate in 1.1d though
[10:48:01] <winfried> yesx
[10:48:20] <pep.> fair enough
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[10:49:06] <winfried> With the note of transports, I think we should move to 1.1d, where the fun begins...
[10:49:08] <Ge0rG> winfried: do you have an update on the "third contries" part?
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[10:49:21] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes
[10:49:38] *winfried opens page 19 of his bible
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[10:50:26] *Ge0rG braces for liturgy recital
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[10:51:00] <winfried> criteria:
3.2a offering services to EU citizens
or
3.2b monitoring behaviour within the EU
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[10:51:37] <jonasw> I’m fully here now
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[10:52:17] <winfried> 3.2a: just offering in english or so is not enough, but a multiple of factors like english and accepting euro's and shipping to the eu is
[10:52:49] <jonasw> winfried, what would the equivalent of "shipping" would be? not denying service?
[10:53:18] <winfried> jonasw: with a service like XMPP it is quite tricky to judge
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[10:53:25] <jonasw> yeah
[10:53:40] <Ge0rG> winfried: oh, that's too broad. I was asking about s2s connections from the EU to third countries.
[10:53:55] <winfried> Ge0rG: ah, ok
[10:54:26] <winfried> Ge0rG: that one is quite clear cut, is chapter 5
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[10:54:51] <pep.> First the laws of said country have to be deemed adequate right?
[10:55:03] <Ge0rG> winfried: chapter 5 is rather long. Can you provide a TL;DR, as this is going to affect s2s
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[10:56:10] <winfried> chapter 5 has different grounds, adequacy is just one of them
[10:56:29] <winfried> (adequacy is art 45)
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[10:57:13] <pep.> pff, I don't want to imagine an implementation for that
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[10:57:48] <winfried> diving further in my bible....
[10:58:42] <Ge0rG> Ah, so transfer to "adequate" countries does not require any additional measures
[10:58:53] <winfried> Ge0rG: correct
[10:58:56] <pep.> yeah, art45
[10:59:02] <pep.> 45.1
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[11:00:48] <winfried> art 46: other possibilities are: Binding Corporate rules (when transfer inside one cooperation) (art 46.2b)
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[11:00:51] <Ge0rG> so adequate and EU countries are the same category for s2s
[11:01:04] <Ge0rG> winfried: 46 probably doesn't apply.
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[11:01:32] <winfried> Ge0rG: because?
[11:01:35] <pep.> doesn't it?
[11:01:57] <pep.> Unless you implementation forbids s2s to non-adequate third-countries
[11:02:07] <pep.> Unless your implementation forbids s2s to non-adequate third-countries
[11:02:14] <Ge0rG> winfried: or at least the contract/same-corp provisions of it
[11:02:26] <Ge0rG> unless all xmpp servers are operated by the same BigCorp
[11:02:27] <pep.> that's 47 right?
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[11:02:53] <winfried> Ge0rG: correct BCR (46.2b) doesn't apply
[11:03:01] <pep.> Ah 46.2b right
[11:03:06] <pep.> that refers to 47
[11:03:17] <Ge0rG> 46 is written in legalese, and I fail to parse it right now
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[11:03:25] <pep.> isn't all
[11:03:41] <winfried> yeah, I really need my bible here...
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[11:04:03] <winfried> 46.2c is interesting: standard clauses
[11:04:56] <Ge0rG> pep.: no, other parts are more appropriate
[11:05:37] <pep.> So we're trying to figure out if we'll have to filter out s2s right
[11:05:38] <Ge0rG> winfried: I suppose 46.2c means something like safe harbor/whatisitcallednow
[11:05:45] <pep.> Or how much
[11:05:57] <pep.> And/or how much
[11:06:14] <Ge0rG> pep.: right
[11:06:51] <pep.> That is really meh. Who was talking about trying to reach email people again
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[11:07:11] <pep.> See how they cope with that.
[11:07:15] <winfried> no, safe harbour is part of the EU-US adequacy decision: "if you keep to privacy shield, it s adequate"
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[11:07:24] <pep.> "Hey users, you can't reach half of the planet from now on"
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[11:08:04] <pep.> winfried, how is this privacy shield defined?
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[11:09:38] <pep.> hmm, what about 49.1a?
[11:09:50] <Ge0rG> AFAIU third countries are also covered by user consent
[11:09:58] <pep.> yes just what I pointed out I think
[11:10:08] <winfried> privacy shield is a (before GDPR) construct to legalise EU-US transfer, saying: when keeping to privacy shield, then the protection in the US is adequate and permitted
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[11:10:36] <jonasw> I’m trying to find a clue about it in the google privacy policy atm
[11:10:43] <winfried> (And Schrems finely argued it was not adequate becease the NSA was left out it)
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[11:11:11] <winfried> So now al companies leave adequacy as ground and use standard clauses
[11:11:37] <pep.> I'd say article 49 applies quite a lot
[11:12:12] <jonasw> so, there’s nothing in that
[11:12:19] <jonasw> (that = google privacy policy)
[11:12:23] <jonasw> with respect to federation
[11:12:40] <jonasw> I begin to suspect that the following applies:
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[11:12:49] <winfried> jonasw: you just found an interesting legal gap at google ;-)
[11:13:01] <Ge0rG> jonasw: sue them!
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[11:13:11] <jonasw> 1. the user has a clear intent to share a message with a recipient when they send a message.
2. it is up to the recipient how they handle the data. this includes whether they consent to it being stored on their server and for how long
[11:13:13] <pep.> winfried, they have more laywers than you will ever have
[11:13:26] <jonasw> now how that works in the light of germany’s whatsapp decision, I don’t know.
[11:14:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I tend to agree with you here, however... by sending a message you only show implicit consent in that the message is to be delivered to the recepient, not that it shall be analyzed to create a profile of your sex life.
[11:14:07] <winfried> pep.: yes, but for example when analysing Microsofts new terms, I found over a douzen issues that were violating EU law
[11:14:30] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that’s true, but if the receiving party consented to that?
[11:14:38] <jonasw> that’s a matter between you and the receiving party then, isn’t it?
[11:15:04] <jonasw> I mean the receiving party could also simply upload all your messages manually to some service which does that to gain some moneyz.
[11:15:04] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes.
[11:15:17] <jonasw> so nothing which concerns server operators?
[11:15:18] <pep.> interesting
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[11:15:31] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the receiving party must gain your consent to process your data.
[11:15:39] <jonasw> but that’s #notourdepartment?
[11:15:43] <Ge0rG> yes
[11:15:46] <pep.> Ge0rG, by subscribing?
[11:15:49] <jonasw> so we can simply not give a fuck?
[11:15:57] <pep.> Or joining a MUC, or ..
[11:16:12] <jonasw> I don’t think that subscription is consent for any level of advanced processing.
[11:16:15] <winfried> 49.1b may be very applicable here
[11:16:21] <jonasw> not for art 9.1 type processing at least
[11:16:30] <Ge0rG> jonasw: maybe. Maybe we need to explicitly tell the user that their messages might leave the EU
[11:16:35] <pep.> winfried, if 49.1b is not enough, there's still 49.1a
[11:16:47] <pep.> Ge0rG, 49.1a then
[11:16:50] <pep.> explicit consent
[11:17:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, mmm, I feel that this might be a reasonable assumption.
[11:17:10] <jonasw> like, if you send a message overseas, it’ll be overseas, period.
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[11:17:39] <jonasw> however, it’s unclear that you might send a message overseas when I send a message to somebody who is in e.g. sweden but has an account at $USProvider
[11:17:43] <pep.> I fear users do not know if it will be overseas, but we can just state the possibility in anycase
[11:18:08] <Ge0rG> I'm pretty sure we can argue that 49.1b applies here: you have a service contract with the XMPP server, and if you want your messages to be sent overseas, the server will happily do so
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[11:18:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: $USProvider is subject to GDPR then.
[11:18:27] <winfried> pep.: my reading is you need one of 49.1a-49.1g
[11:18:33] <pep.> winfried, yes
[11:18:44] <jonasw> I think c applies
[11:18:53] <pep.> if 45 and 46 don't apply
[11:19:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't thing 49.1c applies here
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[11:19:34] <pep.> jonasw, as in, contract between server operators ?
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[11:20:33] <winfried> 49.1c needs a contract between server operators and it needs to be in the interest of the user. Mainly the first one is problematic, the second one may be
[11:20:52] <Ge0rG> I think that 1b is better applicable here.
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[11:21:08] <pep.> Well we don't have to settle on one, unless it's 1a
[11:21:12] <pep.> If both apply, great
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[11:21:32] <winfried> 49.1b says (more or less) and analouge to 6.1b: when it is needed to perform the request of the user
[11:21:44] <Ge0rG> Yup.
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[11:22:00] <pep.> yes
[11:22:03] <winfried> and that one is quite clear: we federate and transfer on request of the user
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[11:22:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, oh indeed I misread
[11:22:32] <pep.> Indeed, I only have that s2s connection if a user requests it
[11:22:35] <winfried> 49.1a feels a bit like a minefield to me
[11:22:54] <Ge0rG> So I'd argue that transfer of content is covered by 49.1b because the user wanted the content to be sent to wherever, and meta-data is covered because the user wanted to subscribe or somesuch.
[11:23:15] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[11:23:17] <pep.> Seems good to me
[11:23:24] <Ge0rG> It might be a good tech TODO to have that written in the data policy.
[11:23:46] *pep. fires vim
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[11:24:08] <Ge0rG> people that you approve as contacts will be able to see your online status.
[11:24:14] <jonasw> Ge0rG, mmm, with subcsription I’d argue that some things aren’t obvious.
[11:24:29] *winfried is listening
[11:24:29] <jonasw> ah, that’s what you meant
[11:24:31] <jonasw> makes sense
[11:24:31] <pep.> jonasw, I think we ought to make them obvious in the policies
[11:24:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: let's make a list
[11:24:37] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ack
[11:24:43] <jonasw> 1. vcard avatar is always publicly visible
[11:25:02] <jonasw> 2. pep avatar and other pep things are most likely visible to your contacts. what things are there, besides avatars?
[11:25:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: vcard avatar is public data. maybe good to have a separate category for that
[11:25:19] <jonasw> 3. last online timestamp, status message, online status, list of online devices
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[11:25:38] <jonasw> list of online devices also means things like software version btw
[11:25:44] <jonasw> because if you know the resource, you can IQ
[11:25:48] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I think that #2 is actually well covered implicitly. If you "play a tune", you want that to be shared with your friends
[11:25:57] <jonasw> possibly
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[11:26:05] <jonasw> it’s the clients job to make that explicit at least
[11:26:21] <Ge0rG> I don't want to open _that_ can of worms
[11:26:25] <jonasw> yupp
[11:26:27] <jonasw> that’s fine
[11:26:41] <jonasw> let’s focus on what must be done on the protocol/federation/server level.
[11:26:48] <Ge0rG> so we need two lists: things shared with everyone; things shared with contacts
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[11:27:00] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes
[11:27:03] <Ge0rG> the latter might contain surprises to the user.
[11:27:19] <Ge0rG> with everyone = with everyone who knows your JID
[11:27:44] <pep.> And things not shared, as in credentials etc., even if obvious
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[11:28:38] <winfried> Ge0rG: you can assume a JID to be publicaly known
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[11:28:41] <pep.> Ge0rG, maybe define "everyone who knows you JID" a bit more? contacts, non-anon MUC owners
[11:28:53] <Ge0rG> winfried: can I?
[11:28:55] <pep.> other server operators
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[11:29:22] <pep.> winfried, I don't think so
[11:30:04] <Ge0rG> "contacts, chatrooms and their server operators"
[11:30:17] <winfried> don't know if that discussion is *very* relevant here/now but in practice most people publish their JID, so they can be contacted...
[11:30:34] <Ge0rG> winfried: if you publish your JID, your JID is obviously public
[11:30:39] <Ge0rG> winfried: but what if not
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[11:31:46] <pep.> I'm going to go soon-ish, starting to get hungry
[11:32:34] <pep.> This list falls under things to be transparent about in the privacy policy then
[11:32:46] <Ge0rG> pep.: yes, it's for the tech TODO
[11:32:50] <pep.> yep
[11:33:12] <winfried> +1
[11:33:24] <Ge0rG> so do we have 1.1d covered now=
[11:33:27] <Ge0rG> so do we have 1.1d covered now?
[11:33:45] <winfried> with the remark of sensitive data or not
[11:33:54] <Ge0rG> right.
[11:33:55] <winfried> (LQ1)
[11:34:19] <pep.> Ok
[11:34:19] <Ge0rG> the Sword of GDamoclesPR
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[11:34:57] <pep.> Can we plan next?
[11:35:01] <winfried> yes
[11:35:43] <winfried> I will try if I can get some opinions on sensitive data in some lawyer groups I participate in
[11:36:19] <jonasw> I’m sure it’s sensitive data. I’d just like to have clarification on if simple store-and-forward (and no analysis) brings us into 9.1 realm
[11:36:44] <winfried> jonasw: exactly
[11:37:01] <jonasw> neat
[11:37:03] <jonasw> so, date of next?
[11:37:10] <jonasw> my constraints shifted and I’m unavailable thursday this week
[11:37:10] <pep.> not tomorrow if possible
[11:37:24] <pep.> Fri noon?
[11:37:27] <jonasw> friday would wfm, something like 10:30 CEST -- 11:30 CEST e.g.
[11:37:30] <Ge0rG> so friday?
[11:37:31] <pep.> I'm not available in the morning
[11:37:38] <jonasw> is 10:30 still morning at yours?
[11:37:43] <pep.> yes
[11:37:46] <jonasw> I see
[11:37:50] <Ge0rG> I'm blocked after 1300CEST
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[11:37:51] <pep.> before 12 is morning :P
[11:37:56] <pep.> hmm
[11:38:00] <jonasw> mmm, I can’t promise 12:00CEST
[11:38:01] <Ge0rG> pep.: set up an alarm :P
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[11:38:09] <pep.> Ge0rG, I have paid job to do
[11:38:18] <pep.> In between :p
[11:38:39] <Ge0rG> yeah, right :P
[11:38:39] <winfried> Friday I am available between 12:00 and 13:30 CEST
[11:38:59] <pep.> I can do 9:30 here, 8:30UTC
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[11:39:08] <pep.> if it doesn't go more than an hour
[11:39:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: take your laptop to the lunch break? ;)
[11:39:18] <Ge0rG> it never went more than an hour!
[11:39:25] <jonasw> Ge0rG, lunch break people won’t approach
[11:39:31] <jonasw> *approve
[11:39:33] <jonasw> wtf is wrong with me
[11:39:46] <pep.> ok so 10:30CEST
[11:39:56] <pep.> In the end
[11:39:58] <jonasw> 10:30 CEST on friday, ACK
[11:40:19] <Ge0rG> winfried> Friday I am available between 12:00 and 13:30 CEST
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[11:40:37] <jonasw> oh
[11:40:39] <jonasw> welp
[11:40:42] <pep.> hmm
[11:40:47] <jonasw> otherwise, next week same time as today would work for me too
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[11:41:04] <winfried> OK, when doing some magic with my schedule, I can be reading from 10:30 but only be (really) active from appr. 11:00
[11:41:15] <pep.> Sure, Mon, Tue workforme
[11:41:35] <Ge0rG> we need to get this settled soon.
[11:41:44] <pep.> Fri I'm not here from 11:45 CEST to ~12:45 CEST
[11:41:58] <jonasw> I blocked friday 10:30 CEST, and I blocked Tue 12:30 CEST, I don’t care which you chose :)
[11:42:51] <pep.> Tue 12:13 CEST is fine by me
[11:43:15] <winfried> Tue wfm (more or less)
[11:43:26] <pep.> What works better?
[11:43:31] <winfried> Tue
[11:43:36] <pep.> Tue when?
[11:44:02] <winfried> after 9:30 CEST
[11:44:57] <pep.> I can do 10:30 CEST again on Tue, or anytime after that
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[11:45:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, 12:30 CEST on Tue?
[11:45:58] <Ge0rG> can do
[11:46:10] <jonasw> then it’s settled
[11:46:17] <winfried> Tuesday 12:30 CEST
[11:46:24] *winfried bangs the gavel
[11:46:35] <pep.> :)
[11:47:34] <pep.> what do you call morning btw? if it's not before noon
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[11:48:29] <jonasw> hmmm, in german there’s "vormittag", which awkwardly translates to pre-noon.
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[11:49:19] <pep.> Ok, I know in quebec they also have this weird notion of early morning and before noon, but in france I've never heard that
[11:49:49] <pep.> (french quebec)
[11:49:52] <jonasw> it’s not particularly weird, considering we have the same for after noon
[11:50:18] <pep.> Sure. Though in usual my mornings are pretty short anyway, so just having one word is fine by me :P
[11:50:28] <winfried> pep.: lol
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[11:50:49] <Ge0rG> morning is the time between your first coffee and being awake.
[11:50:53] <winfried> what's in a word!
[11:51:12] <pep.> Ge0rG, can that also include noon?
[11:51:15] <Holger> Ge0rG: So morning == afternoon?
[11:51:21] <jonasw> even more weird are the swedes, where "middag" is both dinner and noon. eftermiddag is only afternoon, but not after dinner.
[11:51:22] <pep.> :D
[11:51:32] <winfried> Ge0rG: that is never in my case, I don't drink coffee and I am never awake :-P
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[11:52:05] <Zash> "förmiddag"
[11:52:20] <Ge0rG> winfried: then you have an eternal morning?
[11:52:27] <pep.> I'll try to send the minutes today. And update the wiki after that
[11:52:30] <Zash> the morning that never ends?
[11:52:35] *pep. out for lunch
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[11:53:53] <jonasw> Zash, do you have a highlight on "swede"?
[11:54:18] <winfried> Ge0rG: welcome in my life ;-)
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[11:55:34] <MattJ> jonasw, he has a highlight on "coffee"
[11:55:46] <jonasw> MattJ, that makes sense
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[12:04:15] <Ge0rG> A highlight on "highlight"
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[12:23:58] <jonasw> is dwd saying "do a PR, because a vote without PR isn’t really useful at all"?
[12:24:10] <jonasw> if so, I find that hard to get from that email :)
[12:24:47] <MattJ> Well, he's not instructing, but... yes
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[12:25:52] <MattJ> Voting on "X is a nice idea" and "PR X is good to merge" are different things. But I imagine Ge0rG would rather not work on a PR unless the council indicates it would be in favour of the idea of removing GC1
[12:26:16] <Ge0rG> What MattJ said.
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[12:26:56] <Ge0rG> I can only imagine that Dave assumes I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Council process.
[12:27:22] <jonasw> or maybe is confused by your attempts to vote to abolish pidgin ;-)
[12:27:26] <Kev> I don't *think* Dave's mail says that.
[12:27:50] <Kev> I *think* he's just observing that the vote has no practical effect, rather that that it's a bad idea to have the vote.
[12:28:27] <Ge0rG> The practical effect will be that I'll get green lights on preparing a PR, and maybe even some Feedback From The Elders.
[12:29:06] <Kev> Ge0rG: That's not an effect of the vote, though, that's an effect of us discussing it.
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[12:29:24] <Ge0rG> Obviously, a Council member could decide to lure me by +1ing the general principle vote and then blocking any follow-up PR, but I don't hope this is going to happen.
[12:29:31] <Kev> I think the vote's a sensible thing to do, as a forcing function for discussion, but it doesn't achive anything that the discussion without out a vote wouldn't.
[12:29:56] <Ge0rG> Kev: there is actually one outcome I'm looking for: Council consensus on removal of GC1.
[12:30:12] <Ge0rG> Kev: if we don't manage to achieve that consensus, I'm not going to prepare a PR.
[12:30:19] <Kev> I think that's very sensible.
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[12:30:47] <Ge0rG> Which probably wasn't crystal clear from my e-mail.
[12:30:47] <Kev> And I think a vote as a forcing function on the discussion is sensible, too.
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[12:31:07] <Kev> Just that it's not really *necessary*.
[12:31:18] <Ge0rG> Right.
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[12:31:57] <Ge0rG> I'm painfully aware that if the vote is accepted, we'll have a second vote on the subject matter of the PR.
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[12:33:41] <Ge0rG> Even my mail to standards@ can be used to discuss the motion in the wider community.
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[12:34:54] <Kev> I'm against it on the basis of having been reworking M-Link's MUC implementation recently and I implemented and tested GC1 joins :p
[12:34:57] <Kev> (No, I'm not really)
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[12:35:40] <Ge0rG> Kev: you have nobody but yourself to blame. I've clearly stated my goal of burning GC1 half a year ago
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[12:37:39] <Kev> I'm not opposed in principle, but I do think we should have a story for how to address the 'just fix out of sync' that GC1 currently works for.
[12:37:49] <Ge0rG> Kev: "works"
[12:38:01] <Zash> Kev: It does the opposite of fixing anything.
[12:38:23] <Kev> It's not good, but it *does* work around some things at the moment.
[12:38:43] <Kev> e.g. if you've desynched then at least a presence broadcast means you start getting messages again.
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[12:39:00] <Zash> Kev: You'll still be desynced
[12:39:02] <Kev> We should describe how to detect and resolve those cases at the same time as getting rid of GC1.
[12:39:21] <Zash> As in, your view of the participant list may be outdated.
[12:39:22] <Kev> Zash: You will. You'll also be receiving messages.
[12:39:26] <Ge0rG> I think I made multiple proposals back in October.
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[12:40:18] <Ge0rG> I could make an even more revolutionary one: let the MUC respond to self-pings by a participant.
[12:40:19] <Zash> Kev: True. Sending a full join bundle would help in that case.
[12:40:33] <Ge0rG> Zash: not quite
[12:40:52] <Zash> Ge0rG: Assuming clients understand "ok, forget everything, here's the current state", which might need adding
[12:40:53] <Ge0rG> Zash: because you'll end up with zombie users in your participant list
[12:41:16] <Ge0rG> Zash: yes. Assuming there is some kind of marker in the stream telling the client when to forget everything from before
[12:41:25] <Ge0rG> which there isn't in the normal join bundle
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[12:42:24] <Zash> Correct. So Kev says we should address that.
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[12:43:06] <Zash> Returning an error and making the client rejoin does have the same end result tho, at the cost of a roundtrip
[12:43:19] <Ge0rG> Zash: except that most clients suck at rejoining.
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[12:44:17] <Ge0rG> Zash: somebody could implement a server-side MUC bouncer that hides all of this from the client.
[12:44:35] <Zash> Ge0rG: *ahem* mod_minimix?
[12:44:57] <Ge0rG> Zash: I don't appreciate that name very much, but yes.
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[12:45:05] <Zash> Naming things is hard
[12:45:14] <Ge0rG> Zash: also I had a brief look at the source code and decided not to load it on yax.im
[12:45:29] <Zash> Ge0rG: Sane choice.
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[12:45:35] <jonasw> mod_minix -- run a minix inside lua and own all your traffic
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[12:45:55] <jonasw> mod_mimimix -- complain about all attempts to join MIXes in the logs
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[12:47:08] <Ge0rG> mod_mixtape - play low-quality music whenever somebody joins a mix
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[12:49:02] <Zash> Hold on, how do you trick a MUC into subscribing to your presence?
[12:49:41] <Ge0rG> Oh. Hm.
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[12:49:54] <Ge0rG> Right, adding a MUC to your roster doesn't imply much.
[12:50:07] <Ge0rG> I wonder what happens if you send a subscription request to a MUC
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[13:13:50] <Kev> My concern is that things are bad with desyncs, and we'll make them worse by just stopping doing gc1.
[13:13:57] <Kev> And on a Draft XEP that's not on.
[13:14:43] <Ge0rG> Kev: we'll just make clear how bad it actually is.
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[13:15:38] <jonasw> Kev, silently losing messages (what we currently have) is worse than explicitly dropping out of a MUC.
[13:15:47] <Ge0rG> Kev: but I'm open to suggestions how to transition into the new world of awesome MUC without causing regressions
[13:15:50] <Kev> jonasw: And that's not what's on the table.
[13:15:52] *Maranda re-read the gdpr thing
[13:15:59] <jonasw> Kev, it’s not?
[13:16:07] <Kev> jonasw: What's on the table is silently losing some messages vs silently losing more messages.
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[13:16:17] <jonasw> Kev, no, you don’t *silently* lose more mesasges
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[13:16:37] <jonasw> the user and client are aware that they’re losing messages, which isn’t the case with a silent pseudo-resync which happens on accidental GC1.0
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[13:16:56] <Ge0rG> are aware that they *were* losing messages,
[13:17:04] <jonasw> Ge0rG, true.
[13:17:38] <Kev> jonasw: But how many existing clients are dealing with whatever behaviour we're moving towards?
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[13:17:58] <Maranda> So in the end "user must explicitly give consent to treatment of his/her data by 3rd parties (receiving) when using s2s" is legally covering glad we got to that at least.
[13:18:00] <jonasw> Kev, if the MUC replies with a "kicked" status code, every single one I think.
[13:18:01] <Kev> jonasw: I'm not opposed to fixings, but we do have to be sure we're actually fixing them.
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[13:18:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I really dislike "kicked" as opposed to a presence-error
[13:18:29] <Kev> jonasw: Great, so the user isn't getting messages and eventually they might wonder why that tab has gone quiet and look why and see they left 3 days ago.
[13:18:39] <Ge0rG> jonasw: because a sane client won't auto-rejoin after being kicked
[13:18:41] *Maranda oO(and "who would have told" ™️)
[13:18:49] <jonasw> Ge0rG, kicked + 333 maybe?
[13:19:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that's not backward compatible to clients not parsing 333.
[13:19:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m not sure if clients handle type="error"
[13:19:15] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm speaking of "sane" clients.
[13:19:22] <jonasw> Kev, dunno, I’d *expect* clients to tell me that I got kicked out of a MUC.
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[13:19:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, me too
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[13:19:41] <Anu> so are we discussing MUC or what the new lighter MUC will be
[13:19:44] <jonasw> Ge0rG, have you made a survey how many handle type="error"?
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[13:19:51] <jonasw> Anu, MUC
[13:19:55] <Maranda> Anu, uncertain.
[13:19:57] <Ge0rG> Kev: yes. It's better to see after three days that you got kicked than to lose three days worth of discussion and then silently rejoin
[13:20:03] <Anu> ah
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[13:20:26] <Kev> Ge0rG: except probably you don't lose 3 days of messages under gc1, because you will have silently kinda rejoined.
[13:20:31] <Ge0rG> Anu: I've stirred some controversy on the standards@ ML
[13:20:33] <Kev> I'm not saying gc1 is a good thing.
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[13:20:40] <Kev> Or arguing that it should stay.
[13:20:48] <Ge0rG> Kev: maybe you only rejoined after two days.
[13:20:56] <Kev> I'm just saying that it's not clear that we yet have a story for what happens next.
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[13:21:22] <Maranda> And why auto-rejoining is insane?
[13:21:28] <Maranda> 🤔
[13:21:32] <Ge0rG> Maranda: it isn't, unless you were just kicked
[13:21:49] <Anu> Group chat (as people expect it) is such a solved problem. In my honest opinion, we should probably spit up the IRC clone from the kind of group chat people use today (which is more of a distribution list)
[13:22:15] <Ge0rG> Anu: yes, but then everybody wanted their favorite feature in and we ended up with MIX
[13:22:25] <Anu> MIX?
[13:22:32] <jonasw> Anu, XEP-0396
[13:22:34] <jonasw> eh
[13:22:36] <jonasw> Anu, XEP-0369
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[13:22:39] <Ge0rG> Anu: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html
[13:22:45] *Ge0rG playing xep-bot
[13:22:50] <jonasw> good bot Ge0rG
[13:22:54] <Kev> It's MUC with the issues fixed.
[13:23:19] <Ge0rG> Kev: that's the optimistic view.
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[13:24:00] <Maranda> -xep 369
[13:24:01] <Bunneh> Maranda: Mediated Information eXchange (MIX) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-03-18)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html
[13:24:03] <Ge0rG> I'm not convinced that MIX actually solves the problem we are talking about (s2s desync). All it provides is some hand-wavy "use MAM"
[13:24:21] <Maranda> -xep 396
[13:24:22] <Bunneh> Maranda: Jingle Encrypted Transports - OMEMO (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-11-29)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0396.html
[13:24:27] <Kev> Ge0rG: I think that's right, actually. We do need to get the MAM resync in there.
[13:24:29] <Maranda> :O
[13:24:30] <jonasw> yeah, MIX is in the state of "silent message loss", but with better recovery times than MUC
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[13:25:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: recovery times? I don't see no recovery times in MIX
[13:25:31] <jonasw> Ge0rG, in theory, each message stanza would trigger an s2sout attempt at the MIX side of things.
[13:25:39] <Ge0rG> Kev: so I assume your statement should read "MIX is MUC with additional issues." :P
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[13:25:54] <jonasw> which is *probably* better than what happens with MUC-GC1.0-pseudo-resync which only happens when a client happens to update its presence.
[13:26:12] <jonasw> MIX fixes the resource part abuse.
[13:26:20] <Kev> And the long-term join.
[13:26:23] *Maranda thinks currently MIX is in the "it'll cause a core meltdown", but he's vaguely biased.
[13:26:26] <Kev> And the multi-client.
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[13:26:41] <jonasw> everybody loves core dumps
[13:26:59] <Maranda> Stick a state somewhere in that last sentence
[13:27:16] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not sure this is a real problem. And if it is, I'm not sure that abusing the localpart of the MIX JID to contain two fields is a good solution.
[13:27:40] <Ge0rG> Kev: we can solve multi-client long-term join in MUC without touching a single line of XEP.
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[13:27:53] <Maranda> Agreed
[13:27:58] <Kev> I'm quite sure that's not true.
[13:28:01] <Ge0rG> All we need is a bouncer on the user's account that syncs with 0048.
[13:28:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it doesn’t shake the concept of "same bare JID == same identity", which is good enough for me I think
[13:28:13] <Ge0rG> Or 0402, or whatever.
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[13:28:36] <Kev> As long as we have full-JID sharing, iq is going to be broken.
[13:28:47] <jonasw> yeah
[13:28:48] <Ge0rG> jonasw: except in MIX you have a 1:N relationship between identities and JIDs over different MIXes
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[13:28:59] <Maranda> Although I'm somehow also sure somehow "bncs" will also be a cause of nuclear meltdowns
[13:29:02] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’m not sure that matters much.
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[13:29:33] <Ge0rG> Kev: what are the IQ use cases in MUC?
[13:29:51] <Kev> Any time you want to do anything that involves an iq.
[13:29:51] <jonasw> Ge0rG, initiating a call with an occupant (not the whole MUC)
[13:29:56] <Kev> So the same as non-MUC.
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[13:30:20] <Ge0rG> Kev: and self-references are self-references.
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[13:31:17] <Ge0rG> The only IQs I'm actively using are (self)ping and version, and I just made a proposal to fix #1 and I can live with the ambiguity of #2
[13:31:40] *Maranda eyes that "Thesis Survey" in jdev@
[13:31:46] <Anu> desync = netsplit ?
[13:31:51] <Ge0rG> Anu: kind of.
[13:32:08] <Ge0rG> Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html has an in-depth explanation
[13:32:15] <Maranda> Ge0rG vcard:temp also
[13:32:32] <jonasw> Maranda, vcard:temp is on the account, not on the occupant
[13:32:38] <jonasw> Maranda, vcard:temp is on the account, not on the resource
[13:32:41] <Maranda> And time
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[13:32:47] <jonasw> so that’s about the one case where it doesn’t matter in MUC :)
[13:33:07] <Anu> We should all just use EF net and be happy
[13:33:11] <Maranda> What? Hmm is there a difference jonasw?
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[13:33:40] <Ge0rG> Maranda: yes, in MUC you query the full JID for the vcard, and it gets routed by the MUC to the account of the participant
[13:33:40] <Kev> jonasw: No, actually, vcard:temp is another example of iq being broken.
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[13:33:49] <Kev> Because it should go to the full JID of the occupant, not to their bare JID.
[13:33:59] <jonasw> Kev, wha?
[13:34:03] <jonasw> ITYM the other way round?
[13:34:18] <Kev> So all* MUC implementations have some special casing to detect a vcard and send it to the wrong place (bare JID) instead of the normal routing rules [*probably].
[13:34:37] <Ge0rG> Kev: so there is a viable workaround for that.
[13:34:41] <jonasw> ah, "should" in the sense of "the normal routing rules"
[13:34:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, so we wanna staple further workarounds onto MUC for every IQ which might ever need to go to the bare JID?
[13:35:07] *Maranda is confused with occupant != account muc wise
[13:35:07] <Maranda> Waiting for cell to return ™️
[13:35:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm sure the incremental overhead is minuscule.
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[13:35:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but the adoption delay?
[13:35:34] <jonasw> and the difficulties for new implementers.
[13:35:48] <jonasw> and of course, the client code which needs to special-case requesting stuff from MUC occupants.
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[13:35:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: write it down in 0045.
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[13:36:03] <jonasw> you mean like the vcard:temp hack is written down?
[13:36:31] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the special-casing in my client is just in two places :>
[13:36:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: dunno. I'm not a server author. I'm busy enough keeping 0045 usable for client devs.
[13:36:55] <Maranda> Well iq routing has always been hassle in muc, e.g. who do you send to on ping, version, time etc
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[13:36:58] <Ge0rG> a.k.a. not my department.
[13:37:10] <Maranda> In case of shared nick
[13:37:13] <Maranda> 😎
[13:37:24] <Ge0rG> Maranda: I suggest "highest priority"
[13:37:29] <Kev> Maranda: Yes, that's one of the things that's fundamentally broken with MUC addressing.
[13:37:31] <Ge0rG> no, "most available"
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[13:37:33] <jonasw> I suggest least mobile
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[13:39:11] <Maranda> Least mobile 🤔😆
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[13:47:52] <Maranda> And no hacks aren't written down e.g. Multi resource nicks
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[13:51:04] <Ge0rG> Maranda: PR the XEP!
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[14:07:37] <Maranda> Ge0rG I would use someone more literate than myself english wise
[14:07:47] <Maranda> 😜
[14:07:59] <Ge0rG> Maranda: just don't plaster it with Emoji :P
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[14:15:59] <Holger> #18.1.2 Ghost Users 👻
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[14:17:38] <Holger> #5 Roles, Affiliations, and Privileges 😱
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[14:30:09] <Maranda> Mobile Chrome even hangs browsing xeps
[14:30:16] <Maranda> 🤔
[14:30:39] <Ge0rG> I was going to suggest status code 666 for the Ghost Rider.
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[14:30:52] <Ge0rG> Or maybe the GOST Rider. zinid and Andrew would appreciate that.
[14:31:01] <Maranda> 666 which in reality is 999
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[14:37:29] *edhelas propose to ping Ge0rG to check the state of all the MUCs
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[14:38:04] <Ge0rG> edhelas: great idea. And then I quit XMPP and everybody's clients go offline
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[14:39:29] <edhelas> then I'm adding "Ge0rG MUST stay online" to the XEP
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[14:40:44] <Ge0rG> edhelas: I'm not sure you need to write that into the XEP, it might suffice to get a Council vote.
[14:41:12] <Ge0rG> I'll request XSF funding for a multi-homed redundant-hardware HA cluster to run my poezio.
[14:41:32] <Ge0rG> Oh, wait. poezio needs restarts as well. I will request funding to develop a new client written in Erlang.
[14:41:41] <jonasw> Maranda, regarding english literacy, that’s the editors job when in doubt
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[14:42:27] <Maranda> 😲
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[14:43:05] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I didn't want to say that, knowing that the editors are pretty busy
[14:43:15] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that’s no reason not to say the truth :)
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[14:43:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: while you are there... I have some pending PRs :D
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[14:44:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I know that
[14:44:05] <jonasw> I have a pending PR mysefl
[14:44:37] <jonasw> but unfortunately, what you were saying is also true ("the editors are pretty busy")
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[16:43:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:43:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:44:55] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[16:44:57] *** alexis has left the room
[16:45:09] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:48:13] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[16:48:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:52:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:53:59] *** alexis has left the room
[16:55:07] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:55:37] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:55:50] *** alexis has joined the room
[16:57:06] *** sezuan has left the room
[16:57:49] *** daniel has left the room
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[16:58:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:58:56] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[16:59:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:59:52] *** waqas has left the room
[17:00:01] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[17:02:31] *** alexis has left the room
[17:03:08] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:04:15] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:05:35] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:07:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:07:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:09:14] *** Maranda has left the room
[17:11:54] *** alexis has left the room
[17:12:00] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:12:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:12:44] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[17:12:45] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:12:48] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:13:06] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:13:48] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:13:49] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:13:50] *** waqas has joined the room
[17:14:11] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:14:16] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:14:55] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:15:01] *** jjrh has left the room
[17:15:02] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:15:28] *** marc has left the room
[17:15:42] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:16:22] *** Valerian has left the room
[17:17:35] *** daniel has left the room
[17:17:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:18:36] *** rtq3 has left the room
[17:19:25] *** alexis has left the room
[17:19:31] *** rtq3 has joined the room
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[17:20:34] *** Ge0rG has left the room
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[17:21:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:22:22] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:22:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:22:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:26:14] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[17:26:22] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:27:46] *** Lance has left the room
[17:28:36] *** alexis has left the room
[17:29:24] *** alexis has joined the room
[17:30:43] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:30:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:31:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:32:04] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:32:19] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[17:32:55] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:34:05] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[17:34:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:34:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:34:55] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[17:36:19] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[17:36:24] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:37:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:37:55] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:38:09] *** rtq3 has left the room
[17:38:16] *** alexis has left the room
[17:38:17] *** rtq3 has joined the room
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[17:40:38] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[17:40:39] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:41:17] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:41:18] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:41:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:41:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:43:08] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[17:43:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:45:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:46:45] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:46:58] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:47:09] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:47:40] *** alexis has left the room
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[17:49:07] *** @Alacer shows as "online"
[17:49:36] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:49:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:49:54] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:50:11] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:50:13] *** marmistrz has left the room
[17:50:24] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:50:27] *** Valerian has joined the room
[17:51:32] *** Guus has left the room
[17:51:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:52:35] *** marc has left the room
[17:52:39] *** @Alacer has left the room
[17:52:54] *** sezuan has left the room
[17:52:57] *** sezuan has left the room
[17:54:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[17:56:42] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[17:56:58] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:57:09] *** alexis has joined the room
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[17:57:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:57:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:58:18] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[17:58:57] *** Valerian has left the room
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[17:59:58] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[18:00:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:02:21] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[18:02:31] *** Guus has left the room
[18:02:38] *** Tobias has joined the room
[18:03:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:05:40] *** j.r has joined the room
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[18:07:31] *** alexis has joined the room
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[18:08:48] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:08:49] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:08:49] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:08:54] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:08:58] *** Alex shows as "online"
[18:14:23] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:15:21] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:15:31] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:16:13] *** alexis has left the room
[18:16:35] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:17:34] *** daniel has left the room
[18:18:29] *** ThibG has left the room
[18:18:46] *** ThibG has joined the room
[18:18:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:20:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:20:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:20:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:21:48] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:23:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:25:22] *** alexis has left the room
[18:25:51] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:26:01] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:32:20] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:33:12] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:34:55] *** alexis has left the room
[18:35:12] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[18:36:12] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:36:54] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:37:53] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:39:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:40:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:41:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:41:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:42:01] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:42:04] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:42:26] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:42:46] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:43:29] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:43:32] *** alexis has left the room
[18:43:34] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[18:43:53] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:43:58] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:44:00] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:44:25] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[18:44:38] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:45:20] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:45:40] *** daniel has left the room
[18:45:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:48:28] *** blabla shows as "online"
[18:49:01] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:50:24] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:50:29] *** Seve/SouL has left the room
[18:50:37] *** alexis has left the room
[18:51:02] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:51:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:51:25] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:52:26] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:53:28] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:54:52] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:55:04] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:55:13] *** marmistrz has left the room
[18:55:40] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:55:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:56:11] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[18:56:12] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[18:57:05] *** Seve/SouL shows as "online"
[18:57:32] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[18:57:34] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[18:58:04] *** alexis has left the room
[18:58:24] *** daniel has left the room
[18:58:28] *** alexis has joined the room
[18:59:02] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:59:24] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[18:59:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:03:23] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:03:28] *** Alex shows as "online"
[19:03:37] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[19:04:24] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:05:07] *** alexis has left the room
[19:06:06] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:06:08] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:08:37] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[19:09:21] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:09:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:10:19] *** marc has joined the room
[19:10:23] *** marc shows as "online"
[19:11:10] *** jubalh has left the room
[19:11:13] *** daniel has left the room
[19:11:34] *** sezuan has left the room
[19:11:39] *** sezuan has joined the room
[19:12:44] *** alexis has left the room
[19:13:07] *** andy has joined the room
[19:13:08] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:13:12] *** andy shows as "online"
[19:13:27] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:14:24] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:14:35] *** jubalh has joined the room
[19:16:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:17:06] *** ibikk shows as "online"
[19:17:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:19:27] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[19:21:32] *** rtq3 has left the room
[19:21:40] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[19:22:15] *** alexis has left the room
[19:23:34] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:24:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:24:50] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:24:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:25:15] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:25:38] *** ta has joined the room
[19:26:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:26:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:27:14] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:28:47] *** andrey.g has left the room
[19:30:05] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:30:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:30:44] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:31:12] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:31:39] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:32:47] *** alexis has left the room
[19:33:27] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[19:33:30] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:33:31] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[19:34:20] *** andy shows as "away"
[19:34:24] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[19:35:07] *** winfried shows as "online"
[19:35:13] *** Alex has left the room
[19:35:40] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:39:19] *** andy shows as "xa"
[19:39:39] *** andy shows as "online"
[19:39:57] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:40:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:40:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:42:14] *** alexis has left the room
[19:42:47] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:43:29] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[19:43:57] *** Seve/SouL shows as "online"
[19:44:02] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[19:44:04] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:44:07] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:45:20] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[19:47:28] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:48:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:49:25] *** alexis has left the room
[19:49:26] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:49:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:50:03] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:50:24] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:51:02] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:51:37] *** daniel has left the room
[19:51:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[19:52:08] *** alexis has joined the room
[19:54:02] *** intosi has left the room
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[19:58:30] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:58:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[19:59:02] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:59:06] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:59:25] *** jjrh has left the room
[19:59:27] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[19:59:46] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:00:29] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:01:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:01:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:02:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:02:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:04:18] *** andrey.g shows as "online"
[20:04:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:04:21] *** rion shows as "online"
[20:04:34] *** rion has left the room
[20:05:58] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:06:58] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:07:06] *** alexis has left the room
[20:07:19] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:07:35] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:07:50] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:10:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:11:18] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:12:17] *** andrey.g shows as "online"
[20:13:53] *** Syndace has left the room
[20:14:05] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[20:15:22] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:15:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:15:31] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:15:43] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:16:19] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:16:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[20:16:51] *** alexis has left the room
[20:17:26] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:17:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:18:27] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:19:02] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:19:07] *** Lance has left the room
[20:19:31] *** Nekit has left the room
[20:19:36] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:20:23] *** rion has left the room
[20:20:41] *** andrey.g shows as "online"
[20:20:50] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:20:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:21:16] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:21:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:21:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:21:59] *** Nekit has left the room
[20:22:18] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:22:31] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:24:41] *** intosi has joined the room
[20:25:27] *** ludo has left the room
[20:25:31] *** ludo has joined the room
[20:25:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:26:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:27:33] *** alexis has left the room
[20:28:51] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:29:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:30:27] *** ta shows as "online"
[20:31:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:31:58] *** marmistrz has left the room
[20:32:20] *** ibikk shows as "online"
[20:32:47] *** daniel has left the room
[20:33:17] *** andrey.g has left the room
[20:33:54] *** andy shows as "away"
[20:34:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:34:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:35:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:35:29] *** alexis has left the room
[20:35:45] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:35:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:36:01] *** remko has left the room
[20:36:13] *** andy shows as "online"
[20:36:16] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:38:46] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[20:39:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:39:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:39:51] *** sezuan has left the room
[20:39:59] *** Syndace has joined the room
[20:42:47] *** alexis has left the room
[20:42:57] *** daniel has left the room
[20:42:59] *** marmistrz has left the room
[20:43:10] *** sezuan shows as "online"
[20:43:45] *** marc has left the room
[20:44:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:44:45] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:46:03] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is "Ding Dong (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:46:04] *** Maranda shows as "online" and his status message is "Ding Dong"
[20:46:48] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:46:53] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:49:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:49:58] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:50:55] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[20:50:59] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:52:49] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:53:26] *** alexis has left the room
[20:53:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:55:00] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:55:04] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:55:13] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:55:26] *** alexis has joined the room
[20:57:30] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:58:27] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:58:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:58:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:59:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:59:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:59:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:00:52] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[21:02:06] *** alexis has left the room
[21:02:37] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[21:02:42] *** alexis has joined the room
[21:02:54] *** rtq3 has left the room
[21:03:02] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[21:05:23] *** jubalh has left the room
[21:06:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:07:54] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[21:08:09] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:08:19] *** andy has left the room
[21:08:20] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[21:09:17] *** alexis has left the room
[21:09:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:09:58] *** alexis has joined the room
[21:10:01] *** ludo has left the room
[21:10:51] *** winfried shows as "online"
[21:11:14] *** blabla has left the room
[21:12:45] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:12:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:15:12] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:15:12] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:15:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:15:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:15:24] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:15:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:15:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[21:15:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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