XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-04-11


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  489. Dave Cridland Morning. Quick question - has anyone ever implemented POSH (RFC 7711)?
  490. jonasw not me
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  498. fippo dwd: i think tobias had a prototype at least. I did as well but... its probably lost
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  503. daniel Dave Cridland: yes
  504. daniel On the client side
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  506. Dave Cridland daniel, Conversations does it? ANy idea if servers ever do it?
  507. Dave Cridland daniel, I mean, do servers have POSH setup for them?
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  509. daniel It's one of the 3 possible verification methods we offer the users of our domain hosting (among just ignoring the self signed cert and uploading a cert)
  510. daniel Most users opt to give us a cert though
  511. daniel And by offering I mean we generate the json file an provide short instructions on where to copy the file to
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  558. Tobias Dave Cridland, yeah..i implemented a prototype for prosody during IETF 87
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  582. winfried 0-192hcvjgt?
  583. jonasw catropy?
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  593. winfried jonasw: you got it!
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  595. jonasw the 192 got me for a while, that’s 128+64 and thus suspicious (also a common kilo-bits-per-second rate for compressed audio)
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  602. winfried jonasw: yeah, the youngest generation cats grew up in a digital world and know more about it then we! ;-)
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  658. jonasw ping
  659. MattJ .
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  666. Maranda ¡
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  669. jonasw
  670. Maranda -pong
  671. Maranda Bad Bunneh
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  688. jonasw 12:52:43 Zash> jonasw: Wanna forward to Dave that I have a working version of Tobias' POSH implementation? (But being anti-web, not sure I like the idea of it becoming popular)
  689. jonasw Dave Cridland, ^
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  691. Seve/SouL Uoooh
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  694. Anu Does anyone have a write up for the proposed lite muc?
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  756. Kev Doing a clean implementation of MUC at the moment, and I'd forgotten just how *horrible* it is on the server.
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  764. Dave Cridland Kev, Especially the nick-share stuff.
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  766. Maranda 🐮
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  768. Tobias Dave Cridland, but it's so convinient
  769. Maranda I always pondered about removing that completely, that's at least almost 300 lines of code going away
  770. Dave Cridland Tobias, Oh, for sure. Just that implementing it is a pain.
  771. Kev I wonder how many times the size of 369 45 would grow if we actually specified everything in it and didn't rely on folklore.
  772. Maranda (because most of iq routing junk is for that)
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  776. jonasw Maranda, seems like a good way to push MIX adaption.
  777. edhelas jonasw not sure if serious ¬¬
  778. jonasw edhelas, I am
  779. jonasw edhelas, essentially breaking MUC by breaking multi-client usage will push MIX adaption :)
  780. jonasw *adoption
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  782. Maranda "Multi-client usage" was never provisioned by the xep though
  783. Ge0rG jonasw: breaking MUC will push WhatsApp adoption.
  784. Holger I'd prefer fixing MIX over breaking MUC.
  785. jonasw Ge0rG, ssssh
  786. Ge0rG Maranda: yes, but we made it work.
  787. Kev Maranda: Yes, it was. Just entirely unspecified.
  788. Kev +almost
  789. Maranda Essentially *it's a hack* 😘
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  792. Holger What in XMPP isn't ...
  793. Maranda Touché
  794. moparisthebest isn't *everything* a hack?
  795. edhelas are we not all hacks in the end
  796. alexis has joined
  797. UsL hacks and hoes
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  800. marmistrz ChatSecure iOS has gotten an unofficial MUC. chatsecure@conference.magicbroccoli.de
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  804. Maranda Magic 🥦 I wonder how they taste
  805. edhelas magical
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  807. Kev Example of great bits of XEP-0045: A user always gets a room subject when they join the room, right? Fairly clear, it's a MUST (well, a SHALL). But when you get to room creation it's elided and it's not clear if that's just because it's not worth repeating, or it's expected that on creation you don't get one.
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  810. Maranda 🤔
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  812. Ge0rG Kev: and it's not quite clear how to tell the client about an empty subject.
  813. Kev That bit is clear isn't it? Empty elemet, it says it right next to the SHALL IIRC.
  814. Maranda Hmmm
  815. Maranda Hmmmmmm
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  817. Maranda https://pastebin.com/Js6RptFe
  818. Maranda sends it on creation
  819. pep. with a newline inside?
  820. Kev That's not creation. Or, at least, you're not including 201
  821. Maranda Kev, no I'm not including 201, but that's another issue I suppose (yay?)
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  826. jonasw yeah, I filed bugs against servers for not sending the empty subject
  827. jonasw because it’s the only way to be sure that MUC join is over
  828. jonasw (and history replay)
  829. Ge0rG jonasw: with GC1, MUC join is never over
  830. Maranda Ohhh I missed the 201, yay for new bug
  831. Maranda \o/
  832. pep. jonasw, if 201 then no muc history right? and no subject
  833. jonasw Ge0rG, I heard that’s going to be burned anyways
  834. pep. aiui
  835. jonasw pep., dunno, actually
  836. daniel has left
  837. Maranda XEP doesn't say
  838. Maranda I'm just at that bit
  839. Ge0rG jonasw: that's not ensured yet
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  848. Maranda there we go.
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  855. Maranda Ohess
  856. Maranda Gajim acts funny to status 201
  857. Maranda I guess not sending it prevented that.
  858. pep. Maybe fixing gajim would be better, if it's doing it wrong
  859. Maranda pep., hmm I don't think it's wrong it just auto-requests the configuration form.
  860. jere has joined
  861. Maranda pep., https://pastebin.com/8knbN8KT
  862. Maranda (and in the UI [17:19:35] ‎A new room has been created -> which never appeared before)
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  867. Maranda I wonder if Prosody also avoids sending 201 currently (didn't touch that bit of MUC code much)
  868. MattJ Maranda, it's behind a configuration option in Prosody
  869. Maranda MattJ, hmm hmm
  870. alexis has joined
  871. Maranda MattJ, suppose not in pre-0.9 though
  872. MattJ Correct
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  891. daniel MattJ, whats the reason for not sending 201?
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  893. MattJ daniel, because Prosody didn't lock the room by default
  894. MattJ and 201 implies the room is locked until configuration
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  897. daniel what does 'locked' mean in this context?
  898. MattJ Nobody can join the room
  899. daniel members only? not able to send any messages?
  900. daniel nobody else i assume? since the creator is still in the room?
  901. MattJ The creator is in the room, yes
  902. Kev No, when you create a room it's initially locked an the creator MUST choose to either make an instant room (default config) or reserved room (manual config)
  903. Kev So it's not quite members-only, although the result is kinda the same.
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  905. daniel so there are clients that don't configure the room and expect it to 'just work'?
  906. MattJ Potentially
  907. MattJ But they're broken if so
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  909. daniel I see. I'm just curious about prosodys decision to not lock them
  910. Kev OTOH, there are clients that do rely on servers doing the right thing :)
  911. MattJ Most clients didn't/don't implement instant room creation, and the locking thing was annoying and unintuitive
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  913. Kev (I note that for gc1 join-creates, the server doesn't lock and just sets an instant room)
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  926. Lance dwd: for bookmarks2, can we also get an account disco feature if the server does compatibility conversion?
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  931. Lance Kev: when using References, what's the expectation if there are multiple body languages? A reference per lang?
  932. Kev That seems reasonable.
  933. Lance ta
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  963. Ge0rG Shouldn't that be one reference with multiple range elements? Or do we want to support i18nalized images?
  964. Kev Sorry, yes, with each range specifying a different body lang, I guess. Not thinking.
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  967. Ge0rG The second part of my question was serious though. There might be use cases for that. Eg On Google play, you can have localized screenshots.
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  969. Lance There isn't a range element though? Just a pair of begin/end attributes?
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  973. Ge0rG I'm sure we can create a range element if needed
  974. Ge0rG But I'm still not quite sure which use cases References is supposed to cover, and at which complexity cost
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  978. Lance Yeah, the case I care about is mentions
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  980. Kev Tobi and I have been having a discussion about References for Images, and I think the rough concensus is to use SIMS, and follow that model for other References - so if you want to refer to something you add a new payload type into References.
  981. Kev And just have it as a wrapper.
  982. Ge0rG There are multiple unsolved problems with mentions.
  983. Lance has left
  984. Ge0rG Kev: aren't payload types an attribute value, and thus carved in stone?
  985. Kev No?
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  988. Ge0rG Maybe we should rather have the "type" be a sub element, like <reaction>🤦‍♂️</reaction>
  989. Kev I mean, yes it's an attribute, but there's nothing that says that attributes can't be extended.
  990. SaltyBones has joined
  991. Kev And has the advantage of being clear that you don't support the type.
  992. Ge0rG Kev: implementations will end up with an enum type and vomit stack traces all over the user
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  996. Kev Not if the XEP says that you must expect unexpected values :)
  997. Ge0rG Unless we bump the namespace with each new element type, breaking backward compatibility
  998. Ge0rG Nobody expects the Unexpected Values!
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  1004. Maranda <<If the service receives a cancellation, it MUST destroy the room.>>
  1005. jjrh has left
  1006. Maranda Well If I cancel Gajim sends nothing
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  1009. Maranda so that will end with an idefinitely locked room?
  1010. Maranda or until it's configured (tm)
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  1052. Maranda also removed all legacy errors from muc.
  1053. Maranda also removed all legacy error codes from muc.
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  1081. Maranda I can't seem to find on the xep, but is there a specific error to send to bounce joins when a room is locked?
  1082. Maranda went with <forbidden />
  1083. alexis has left
  1084. Maranda oh wait
  1085. Maranda item-not-found, nm
  1086. Maranda found it now.
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  1101. Maranda Ge0rG, that throttle thing you have on yax.im is severely annoying :P
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  1164. Ge0rG Maranda: tell the developers. I think there is a ticket for that somewhere
  1165. alexis has joined
  1166. Maranda Ge0rG, hehe was trying to use it as guinea pig https://muc.metronome.im:5280/pastebin/43e8c3c7-af46-45a7-8541-17edb26c0797 but keept blocking messages
  1167. Maranda had to send 51.
  1168. Maranda :P
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  1170. Ge0rG Maranda: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to tell me.
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  1173. Maranda Ge0rG, nothing that I was getting a lot of service-unavailable while poking with messages because of the throttling.
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  1175. Ge0rG Maranda: I don't think my throttling would cause any errors.
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  1178. Maranda Ge0rG, well it did.... I was typing one letter and sending it repeatedly to test and started getting "there was an error sending the message (service-unavailable)" after a a bit more than dozen or so
  1179. Kev has left
  1180. Ge0rG Maranda: to a MUC?
  1181. Maranda Nope
  1182. Maranda was to a bare jid.
  1183. Maranda (normal user)
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  1186. Ge0rG Maranda: mod_throttle_unsolicited then.
  1187. Ge0rG https://modules.prosody.im/mod_throttle_unsolicited.html
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