XSF Discussion - 2018-04-15


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  414. pep. Ge0rG, re MUC self-ping/removal of gc1, that won't fix clients that don't show presence? like Conversations. But there's not much we can do for that I suppose.
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  417. jonasw what does showing presence have to do with removal of GC1?
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  420. pep. One of the goals was to let the user know they've lost the connection to the room and their are not silently being reconnected to it, with possibly history loss in between
  421. pep. *they are not
  422. jonasw yes
  423. jonasw conversations *does* show when you get removed from a room
  424. jonasw (it shows a "You are no longer in this room [Join]" blob at the bottom of the message view)
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  426. pep. well but if it self-pings, and then reconnects to it, you'll be reconnected in the end
  427. jonasw yes
  428. jonasw so?
  429. jonasw ahh
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  432. pep. So it needs a way to clearly show the break
  433. jonasw no, the point is that the reconnect is well-defined
  434. jonasw it can easily do that
  435. jonasw it would request history since the last message it got and/or MAM
  436. pep. yes but that might not cover all messages
  437. jonasw adding a marker in there that messages might’ve been lost due to server issues would be trivial, I presume
  438. pep. ok
  439. jonasw but again this has nothing to do with showing presence
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  441. pep. well kind of, I mean poezio doesn't have much to do about this self-ping thing, I see part/joins already, and I already get errors displayed
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  443. jonasw it has to do a lot about it
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  445. jonasw or it already odes
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  447. pep. There is self-ping already
  448. jonasw what happens with poezio without self-ping is that the next message you send to the MUC is just not sent
  449. pep. Maybe not exactly the same that Ge0rG wants?
  450. jonasw and you have to realize that yourself and /cycle
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  452. jonasw yeah, the self-ping of poezio has the issue (which poezio can’t do anything about) that it might end up at another resource of yours which cannot reply, thus timing out, thus cycling you unnecessarily
  453. pep. or latency, and unnecessary cycling :(
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  467. Kev Ping timeout doesn't matter, does it? It's not until you start getting errors that you need to cycle.
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  469. jonasw Kev, if the s2s link is broken badly you’ll also want to let the user know.
  470. jonasw which is generally a timeout condition. also, you’ll probably have to re-join, so you need to cycle
  471. Kev If the s2s link is broken badly, you get a ping response.
  472. Kev And there's no point rejoining while it's down.
  473. Kev So I think the right thing is to only cycle on an error.
  474. Kev You can warn the user on a slow response, but leave them 'in' the room.
  475. jonasw hm
  476. jonasw I’m confused
  477. jonasw if the s2slink is broken badly, you don’t get a response, at all
  478. Kev If it's 'broken', you get remote not found.
  479. jonasw with badly, I mean it’s blackholed and waiting for a two days TCP timeout or The Prosody Bug or something like that
  480. Kev If it's up but blackholing, you get no response.
  481. Kev In that state, cycling achieves nothing.
  482. jonasw what else would you do though?
  483. jonasw start cycling until you’re back in
  484. Kev Nothing.
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  486. Kev Wait until you get an error to cycle.
  487. jonasw so you continue to ping
  488. Kev Yes.
  489. jonasw hm
  490. Kev Avoids the 'sent to a disconnected resource that isn't you' issue too.
  491. jonasw the advantage being that (a) you don’t get dropped out by other clients getting your IQ and not being able to reply and (b) if the s2slink actually has stream management or something fancy you don’t lose anything
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  493. Kev The disadvantage of all this is that if you're in a MUC that doesn't allow IQ, you're going to be perpetually cycling.
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  507. Maranda MUC that doesn't allow IQ?
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  510. Maranda attempts to picture the case in his mind.
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  519. Kev Some MUCs disallow all PM traffic.
  520. Kev Because it'd be a nuisance, e.g. getting arbitrary file transfer requests or whathaveyou.
  521. jonasw is it specified what type of error such a MUC returns?
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  526. Maranda service-unavailable me thinks?
  527. jonasw service-unavailable would be treated as success by MUC-self-ping implementations ala Ge0rG
  528. Maranda but I vaguely recalls forbidden too
  529. Maranda also that ping implementations should treat all errors as *success*
  530. jonasw Maranda, no
  531. jonasw not-allowed is supposedly returned if you’re not joined
  532. Maranda are we talking about the keepalive pings or something else?
  533. Maranda oh
  534. Maranda nm
  535. Maranda because for mod_s2s_keepalive or whatever it was called as long as a IQ reply is returned it shouldn't matter.
  536. jonasw yeah, that’s not the topic though
  537. Maranda but if it's about being into the room
  538. Maranda on a slightly different topic is poezio the only *still in development* thing using GC1.0?
  539. jonasw I’m pretty sure that poezio doesn’t use GC1.0
  540. Zash Nothing uses GC 1.0
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  542. jonasw yeah, it doesn’t, Maranda
  543. Zash Only thing we found that did was the prosody web chat, and it's been fixed.
  544. Maranda I'm not sure why I remember a talk about sending presences without x
  545. Maranda I'm not sure why I remember a talk about it sending presences without x
  546. Maranda for joins
  547. Maranda ah well
  548. Maranda all the GC1.0 junk is covered anyways
  549. Maranda (now at least)
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  566. Maranda Zash, hmm so the data Link Mauve and Ge0rG got about GC1.0 were about the web chat only?
  567. Zash Huh?
  568. Maranda they collected statistics about GC1.0 joins
  569. Maranda You said "that the only thing we found was the prosody web chat"
  570. Zash I collected some stats from conference.prosody.im
  571. Maranda Oh ok.
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  777. Ge0rG Kev: will rooms that forbid PMs also forbid IQs?
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  781. Steve Kille IQ seems a lower level thing, which should not have control coupled to PMs
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  784. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure one of the XSF MUCs disallowed PMs in the past, but self-ping did work
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  787. Maranda Ge0rG, you mean jdev@conference.jabber.org that's the only one that comes to mind.
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  809. Ge0rG Maranda: well possible.
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  895. Kev Ge0rG: Depends. But if PMs are disabled for not getting spammed reasons, blocking IQs makes sense too, because file transfer, Jingle call, etc.
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  905. Ge0rG Kev: I'm looking for answers from real implementations
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