Sunday, April 15, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[11:01:18] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:01:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[11:02:30] *** UsL shows as "online"
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[11:04:22] <pep.> Ge0rG, re MUC self-ping/removal of gc1, that won't fix clients that don't show presence? like Conversations. But there's not much we can do for that I suppose.
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[11:05:02] <jonasw> what does showing presence have to do with removal of GC1?
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[11:06:06] <pep.> One of the goals was to let the user know they've lost the connection to the room and their are not silently being reconnected to it, with possibly history loss in between
[11:06:26] <pep.> *they are not
[11:06:32] <jonasw> yes
[11:06:40] <jonasw> conversations *does* show when you get removed from a room
[11:07:01] <jonasw> (it shows a "You are no longer in this room [Join]" blob at the bottom of the message view)
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[11:07:14] <pep.> well but if it self-pings, and then reconnects to it, you'll be reconnected in the end
[11:07:24] <jonasw> yes
[11:07:25] <jonasw> so?
[11:07:32] <jonasw> ahh
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[11:07:39] <pep.> So it needs a way to clearly show the break
[11:07:41] <jonasw> no, the point is that the reconnect is well-defined
[11:07:45] <jonasw> it can easily do that
[11:07:51] <jonasw> it would request history since the last message it got and/or MAM
[11:08:02] <pep.> yes but that might not cover all messages
[11:08:03] <jonasw> adding a marker in there that messages might’ve been lost due to server issues would be trivial, I presume
[11:08:06] <pep.> ok
[11:08:10] <jonasw> but again this has nothing to do with showing presence
[11:08:50] <pep.> well kind of, I mean poezio doesn't have much to do about this self-ping thing, I see part/joins already, and I already get errors displayed
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[11:09:02] <jonasw> it has to do a lot about it
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[11:09:08] <jonasw> or it already odes
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[11:09:16] <pep.> There is self-ping already
[11:09:24] <jonasw> what happens with poezio without self-ping is that the next message you send to the MUC is just not sent
[11:09:26] <pep.> Maybe not exactly the same that Ge0rG wants?
[11:09:28] <jonasw> and you have to realize that yourself and /cycle
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[11:09:57] <jonasw> yeah, the self-ping of poezio has the issue (which poezio can’t do anything about) that it might end up at another resource of yours which cannot reply, thus timing out, thus cycling you unnecessarily
[11:10:32] <pep.> or latency, and unnecessary cycling :(
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[11:36:19] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[11:36:20] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[11:43:30] <Kev> Ping timeout doesn't matter, does it? It's not until you start getting errors that you need to cycle.
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[11:44:19] <jonasw> Kev, if the s2s link is broken badly you’ll also want to let the user know.
[11:44:38] <jonasw> which is generally a timeout condition. also, you’ll probably have to re-join, so you need to cycle
[11:44:39] <Kev> If the s2s link is broken badly, you get a ping response.
[11:44:51] <Kev> And there's no point rejoining while it's down.
[11:45:00] <Kev> So I think the right thing is to only cycle on an error.
[11:45:14] <Kev> You can warn the user on a slow response, but leave them 'in' the room.
[11:45:59] <jonasw> hm
[11:46:00] <jonasw> I’m confused
[11:46:07] <jonasw> if the s2slink is broken badly, you don’t get a response, at all
[11:46:19] <Kev> If it's 'broken', you get remote not found.
[11:46:25] <jonasw> with badly, I mean it’s blackholed and waiting for a two days TCP timeout or The Prosody Bug or something like that
[11:46:25] <Kev> If it's up but blackholing, you get no response.
[11:46:49] <Kev> In that state, cycling achieves nothing.
[11:47:08] <jonasw> what else would you do though?
[11:47:13] <jonasw> start cycling until you’re back in
[11:47:16] <Kev> Nothing.
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[11:47:23] <Kev> Wait until you get an error to cycle.
[11:47:28] <jonasw> so you continue to ping
[11:47:48] <Kev> Yes.
[11:47:52] <jonasw> hm
[11:48:36] <Kev> Avoids the 'sent to a disconnected resource that isn't you' issue too.
[11:48:48] <jonasw> the advantage being that (a) you don’t get dropped out by other clients getting your IQ and not being able to reply and (b) if the s2slink actually has stream management or something fancy you don’t lose anything
[11:49:00] *** lnj has left the room
[11:49:10] <Kev> The disadvantage of all this is that if you're in a MUC that doesn't allow IQ, you're going to be perpetually cycling.
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[12:09:23] <Maranda> MUC that doesn't allow IQ?
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[12:09:49] *Maranda attempts to picture the case in his mind.
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[12:12:23] <Kev> Some MUCs disallow all PM traffic.
[12:12:44] <Kev> Because it'd be a nuisance, e.g. getting arbitrary file transfer requests or whathaveyou.
[12:13:10] <jonasw> is it specified what type of error such a MUC returns?
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[12:14:43] <Maranda> service-unavailable me thinks?
[12:15:08] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[12:15:12] <jonasw> service-unavailable would be treated as success by MUC-self-ping implementations ala Ge0rG
[12:15:39] <Maranda> but I vaguely recalls forbidden too
[12:15:56] <Maranda> also that ping implementations should treat all errors as *success*
[12:16:04] <jonasw> Maranda, no
[12:16:10] <jonasw> not-allowed is supposedly returned if you’re not joined
[12:16:28] <Maranda> are we talking about the keepalive pings or something else?
[12:16:48] <Maranda> oh
[12:16:49] *** ibikk shows as "online"
[12:16:50] <Maranda> nm
[12:17:29] <Maranda> because for mod_s2s_keepalive or whatever it was called as long as a IQ reply is returned it shouldn't matter.
[12:17:37] <jonasw> yeah, that’s not the topic though
[12:17:39] <Maranda> but if it's about being into the room
[12:18:17] <Maranda> on a slightly different topic is poezio the only *still in development* thing using GC1.0?
[12:19:01] <jonasw> I’m pretty sure that poezio doesn’t use GC1.0
[12:19:18] <Zash> Nothing uses GC 1.0
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[12:19:39] <jonasw> yeah, it doesn’t, Maranda
[12:19:58] <Zash> Only thing we found that did was the prosody web chat, and it's been fixed.
[12:20:26] <Maranda> I'm not sure why I remember a talk about sending presences without x
[12:20:33] <Maranda> I'm not sure why I remember a talk about it sending presences without x
[12:20:42] <Maranda> for joins
[12:20:44] <Maranda> ah well
[12:20:52] <Maranda> all the GC1.0 junk is covered anyways
[12:21:21] <Maranda> (now at least)
[12:21:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[12:34:33] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[12:44:33] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:45:59] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[12:48:23] <Maranda> Zash, hmm so the data Link Mauve and Ge0rG got about GC1.0 were about the web chat only?
[12:48:54] <Zash> Huh?
[12:49:35] <Maranda> they collected statistics about GC1.0 joins
[12:50:24] <Maranda> You said "that the only thing we found was the prosody web chat"
[12:50:26] <Zash> I collected some stats from conference.prosody.im
[12:50:33] <Maranda> Oh ok.
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[16:36:24] <Ge0rG> Kev: will rooms that forbid PMs also forbid IQs?
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[16:39:37] <Steve Kille> IQ seems a lower level thing, which should not have control coupled to PMs
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[16:42:22] <Ge0rG> I'm pretty sure one of the XSF MUCs disallowed PMs in the past, but self-ping did work
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[16:45:44] <Maranda> Ge0rG, you mean jdev@conference.jabber.org that's the only one that comes to mind.
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[16:46:54] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:48:12] *Maranda is tempted to tinker with 363
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[17:03:53] *** Tim shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[17:09:13] <Ge0rG> Maranda: well possible.
[17:11:12] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
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[17:14:29] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[17:34:24] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[17:54:44] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[17:56:55] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[18:02:24] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[18:03:48] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:03:49] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[18:06:08] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:07:10] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[18:07:13] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[18:13:49] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[18:33:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:33:49] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[18:40:23] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[18:43:28] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:46:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[18:48:40] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[18:54:44] *** lnj shows as "online"
[18:56:27] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[19:07:19] *** marmistrz shows as "away"
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[19:09:38] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:11:01] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:12:40] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:13:02] *** lnj shows as "online"
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[19:18:08] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:18:27] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[19:19:38] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:20:43] *** marmistrz shows as "away"
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[19:21:32] *** Guus shows as "online"
[19:21:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[19:28:08] *** lnj shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[19:29:33] *** Valerian has left the room
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[19:37:16] <Kev> Ge0rG: Depends. But if PMs are disabled for not getting spammed reasons, blocking IQs makes sense too, because file transfer, Jingle call, etc.
[19:39:27] *** UsL has joined the room
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[20:02:40] *** lumi shows as "xa" and his status message is "(Idle 60 min)"
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[20:14:00] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm looking for answers from real implementations
[20:14:40] *** SaltyBones has left the room
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[20:32:47] *** tux shows as "online"
[20:36:44] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:37:22] *** ThurahT shows as "online"
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[20:46:43] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:47:09] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[20:48:32] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[20:49:35] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[20:50:20] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[20:57:01] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[20:57:50] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[21:06:26] *** Tim shows as "online"
[21:07:01] *** lovetox shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:07:54] *** sezuan has left the room
[21:09:29] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[21:11:41] *** lumi shows as "online"
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[21:19:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:21:48] *** Tim shows as "online"
[21:22:29] *** andy shows as "away"
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[21:37:22] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[21:44:53] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[21:47:40] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:48:09] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[21:49:40] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[21:52:10] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:52:23] *** Tim shows as "online"
[21:52:57] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[21:53:49] *** jjrh has left the room
[21:53:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:53:55] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[21:54:08] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[21:57:56] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:59:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[21:59:17] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:59:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:00:07] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:01:26] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[22:03:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:04:01] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:04:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:05:39] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:05:52] *** winfried shows as "online"
[22:05:52] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:05:52] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:05:53] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:06:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:06:05] *** daniel has left the room
[22:06:10] *** winfried shows as "online"
[22:06:19] *** Guus has left the room
[22:06:20] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:06:21] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:06:35] *** SamWhited has joined the room
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[22:08:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:08:58] *** Tim shows as "online"
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[22:10:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:13:18] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:13:33] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:14:36] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:14:49] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[22:15:04] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:17:31] *** Guus has left the room
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[22:18:59] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:19:59] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:20:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:20:31] *** Guus has left the room
[22:20:48] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
[22:22:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:23:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:23:20] *** ibikk has left the room
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[22:23:52] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[22:24:08] *** Tim shows as "online"
[22:24:21] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:25:30] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
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[22:27:22] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:27:35] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:28:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:30:29] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:32:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:32:30] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:32:35] *** Maranda has left the room
[22:32:38] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[22:33:04] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:33:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:34:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:36:27] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:38:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:38:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:41:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:43:36] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:46:28] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:46:29] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:49:19] *** SaltyBones has joined the room
[22:51:06] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:52:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:55:04] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:57:31] *** daniel has left the room
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[23:10:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:10:12] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:11:30] *** ralphm has joined the room
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[23:15:05] *** Maranda has left the room
[23:20:09] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:21:46] *** Zash has left the room
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[23:25:00] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:25:04] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:25:05] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[23:28:28] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:28:29] *** Guus has left the room
[23:28:29] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:28:29] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[23:33:53] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:38:31] *** Guus has left the room
[23:38:31] *** Guus has left the room
[23:39:52] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[23:40:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:41:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:53:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[23:57:49] *** Guus shows as "online"