XSF Discussion - 2018-04-17


  1. Lance has left
  2. SamWhited has left
  3. Maranda has joined
  4. Tim has joined
  5. Tim has joined
  6. SamWhited has left
  7. Tim has joined
  8. SamWhited has left
  9. efrit has left
  10. Dave Cridland has left
  11. Chobbes has joined
  12. Tim has joined
  13. mimi89999 has joined
  14. Dave Cridland has left
  15. Dave Cridland has left
  16. Syndace has left
  17. Syndace has joined
  18. Tim has joined
  19. alexis has left
  20. alexis has joined
  21. Tim has left
  22. lskdjf has left
  23. Tim has joined
  24. Dave Cridland has left
  25. lskdjf has left
  26. winfried has left
  27. Tim has joined
  28. Guus has left
  29. Tim has joined
  30. tux has left
  31. tux has joined
  32. daniel has left
  33. daniel has joined
  34. Tim has joined
  35. Guus has left
  36. SamWhited has left
  37. daniel has left
  38. Dave Cridland has left
  39. Tim has joined
  40. SamWhited has left
  41. Tim has joined
  42. daniel has joined
  43. Tim has joined
  44. SamWhited has left
  45. Guus has left
  46. lskdjf has left
  47. lskdjf has left
  48. alexis has left
  49. Tim has joined
  50. alexis has joined
  51. Tim has left
  52. SamWhited has left
  53. Tim has joined
  54. Guus has left
  55. lskdjf has joined
  56. Dave Cridland has left
  57. Guus has left
  58. Guus has left
  59. daniel has left
  60. daniel has joined
  61. moparisthebest has joined
  62. moparisthebest has joined
  63. alexis has left
  64. Dave Cridland has left
  65. Zash has left
  66. Guus has left
  67. SamWhited has left
  68. Guus has left
  69. SamWhited has left
  70. alexis has joined
  71. Dave Cridland has left
  72. Guus has left
  73. rion has joined
  74. Guus has left
  75. rion has left
  76. @Alacer has left
  77. @Alacer has joined
  78. Dave Cridland has left
  79. Dave Cridland has left
  80. Guus has left
  81. SamWhited has left
  82. rion has joined
  83. Dave Cridland has left
  84. Dave Cridland has left
  85. SamWhited has left
  86. SamWhited has joined
  87. vanitasvitae has joined
  88. Dave Cridland has left
  89. Dave Cridland has left
  90. Guus has left
  91. Guus has left
  92. j.r has joined
  93. Dave Cridland has left
  94. moparisthebest has joined
  95. Guus has left
  96. ThibG has left
  97. ThibG has joined
  98. SamWhited has left
  99. SamWhited has joined
  100. SamWhited has left
  101. Yagiza has joined
  102. Guus has left
  103. SamWhited has left
  104. rion has left
  105. rion has joined
  106. Guus has left
  107. Guus has left
  108. Guus has left
  109. Guus has left
  110. ibikk has joined
  111. ludo has joined
  112. rion has left
  113. rion has joined
  114. daniel has left
  115. SamWhited has left
  116. Guus has left
  117. Tim has joined
  118. Nekit has joined
  119. SamWhited has left
  120. j.r has left
  121. j.r has joined
  122. SamWhited has left
  123. Tim has left
  124. lnj has joined
  125. rion has left
  126. rion has joined
  127. SamWhited has left
  128. nyco has joined
  129. Tim has joined
  130. Yagiza has left
  131. ibikk has joined
  132. sezuan has left
  133. sezuan has joined
  134. Guus has left
  135. Tobias has joined
  136. Yagiza has joined
  137. ludo has left
  138. SamWhited has left
  139. daniel has joined
  140. Tim has joined
  141. SamWhited has left
  142. moparisthebest has joined
  143. SamWhited has left
  144. daniel has left
  145. SamWhited has joined
  146. goffi has joined
  147. daniel has joined
  148. goffi has left
  149. goffi has joined
  150. nyco has left
  151. nyco has joined
  152. rion has left
  153. Nekit has left
  154. @Alacer has left
  155. @Alacer has joined
  156. ludo has joined
  157. Tim has joined
  158. ta has left
  159. jubalh has joined
  160. lnj has left
  161. Tim has joined
  162. daniel has left
  163. Dave Cridland has left
  164. Tim has joined
  165. daniel has joined
  166. andy has joined
  167. rion has joined
  168. Tim has joined
  169. valo has joined
  170. daniel has left
  171. jubalh has left
  172. winfried has left
  173. ralphm has joined
  174. Guus has left
  175. Tim has joined
  176. Tobias has left
  177. Tobias has joined
  178. edhelas has left
  179. edhelas has joined
  180. Guus has left
  181. andy has left
  182. andy has joined
  183. Valerian has joined
  184. Tim has joined
  185. daniel has joined
  186. marc has joined
  187. Tim has joined
  188. Dave Cridland has left
  189. Guus has left
  190. Tim has left
  191. Tim has left
  192. Tim has left
  193. @Alacer has left
  194. jonasw Maranda, I don’t think so
  195. jonasw it also isn’t that much work to support both
  196. lnj has joined
  197. Guus has left
  198. andy has left
  199. andy has joined
  200. la|r|ma has left
  201. la|r|ma has joined
  202. nyco has left
  203. edhelas has left
  204. edhelas has joined
  205. andy has left
  206. andy has joined
  207. edhelas has left
  208. edhelas has joined
  209. jere has left
  210. jere has joined
  211. Dave Cridland has left
  212. marc has left
  213. Tim has joined
  214. Dave Cridland has left
  215. Guus has left
  216. marmistrz has left
  217. Dave Cridland has left
  218. andy has left
  219. Dave Cridland has left
  220. andy has joined
  221. Dave Cridland has left
  222. Guus has left
  223. ta has joined
  224. Guus has left
  225. ludo has left
  226. ludo has joined
  227. Dave Cridland has left
  228. ralphm has joined
  229. sezuan has left
  230. Guus has left
  231. marmistrz has left
  232. SaltyBones has left
  233. ralphm has joined
  234. Dave Cridland has left
  235. Dave Cridland has left
  236. Chobbes has left
  237. Chobbes has joined
  238. Dave Cridland has left
  239. Dave Cridland has left
  240. daniel has left
  241. ralphm has joined
  242. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  243. marmistrz has left
  244. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  245. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  246. lumi has joined
  247. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  248. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  249. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  250. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  251. Steve Kille has left
  252. Steve Kille has left
  253. lnj has left
  254. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  255. Alex has joined
  256. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  257. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  258. Maranda jonasw, Gajim uses it at least
  259. waqas has left
  260. lskdjf has joined
  261. Dave Cridland has left
  262. ludo has left
  263. ludo has joined
  264. winfried has left
  265. winfried has left
  266. winfried has left
  267. winfried has left
  268. ibikk has left
  269. winfried has left
  270. winfried has left
  271. winfried has left
  272. ta has left
  273. winfried has left
  274. ta has joined
  275. Tim has joined
  276. efrit has joined
  277. vanitasvitae has joined
  278. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  279. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  280. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  281. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  282. jonasw has left
  283. daniel has left
  284. Tim has joined
  285. SaltyBones has left
  286. SaltyBones has joined
  287. Guus has left
  288. Dave Cridland has left
  289. Maranda has left
  290. Maranda has joined
  291. SaltyBones has left
  292. SaltyBones has joined
  293. SaltyBones has left
  294. SaltyBones has joined
  295. Valerian has left
  296. SaltyBones has left
  297. SaltyBones has joined
  298. Valerian has joined
  299. Maranda has left
  300. SaltyBones has left
  301. SaltyBones has joined
  302. ibikk has joined
  303. remko has joined
  304. Guus has left
  305. Guus has left
  306. ludo has left
  307. ludo has joined
  308. triidi has joined
  309. rtq3 has joined
  310. edhelas has left
  311. edhelas has joined
  312. daniel has left
  313. Guus has left
  314. SaltyBones has left
  315. rtq3 has left
  316. rtq3 has joined
  317. Guus has left
  318. SaltyBones has joined
  319. winfried has left
  320. Steve Kille has joined
  321. winfried has left
  322. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  323. Steve Kille has left
  324. winfried has left
  325. Steve Kille has joined
  326. winfried has left
  327. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  328. Steve Kille has left
  329. Steve Kille has joined
  330. Steve Kille has left
  331. Steve Kille has joined
  332. Steve Kille has left
  333. Steve Kille has joined
  334. Steve Kille has left
  335. Steve Kille has joined
  336. Steve Kille has left
  337. Steve Kille has joined
  338. Steve Kille has left
  339. efrit has left
  340. Steve Kille has joined
  341. Steve Kille has left
  342. Steve Kille has joined
  343. Steve Kille has left
  344. Steve Kille has joined
  345. rtq3 has left
  346. rtq3 has joined
  347. Steve Kille has left
  348. Steve Kille has joined
  349. Steve Kille has left
  350. vanitasvitae has left
  351. Steve Kille has joined
  352. Steve Kille has left
  353. Steve Kille has joined
  354. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  355. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  356. Steve Kille has left
  357. Steve Kille has joined
  358. Steve Kille has left
  359. Steve Kille has joined
  360. marmistrz has left
  361. Steve Kille has left
  362. Steve Kille has joined
  363. Steve Kille has left
  364. @Alacer has joined
  365. Steve Kille has joined
  366. Steve Kille has left
  367. Steve Kille has joined
  368. Steve Kille has left
  369. Steve Kille has joined
  370. Steve Kille has left
  371. Steve Kille has joined
  372. Steve Kille has left
  373. Steve Kille has joined
  374. Steve Kille has left
  375. Steve Kille has joined
  376. pep. gdpr meeting in about in hour?
  377. Steve Kille has left
  378. Steve Kille has joined
  379. Steve Kille has left
  380. Ge0rG yeah
  381. Steve Kille has joined
  382. Steve Kille has left
  383. Steve Kille has joined
  384. Steve Kille has left
  385. Steve Kille has joined
  386. Tim has joined
  387. Steve Kille has left
  388. Steve Kille has joined
  389. Maranda has joined
  390. Steve Kille has left
  391. SaltyBones has left
  392. Steve Kille has joined
  393. Steve Kille has left
  394. Maranda has joined
  395. mrdoctorwho has left
  396. Yagiza has left
  397. triidi has left
  398. daniel has left
  399. Nekit has left
  400. Nekit has joined
  401. Steve Kille has joined
  402. Yagiza has joined
  403. tux has left
  404. winfried has left
  405. daniel has left
  406. marmistrz has joined
  407. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  408. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  409. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  410. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  411. moparisthebest has joined
  412. moparisthebest has joined
  413. efrit has joined
  414. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  415. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  416. @Alacer has left
  417. @Alacer has joined
  418. lskdjf has joined
  419. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  420. vanilla has joined
  421. lskdjf has joined
  422. Valerian has left
  423. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  424. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  425. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  426. Guus has left
  427. daniel has left
  428. SaltyBones has joined
  429. winfried GDPR meeting in 3 minutes
  430. jonasw .
  431. jonasw 🐈
  432. pep. Almost there!
  433. lskdjf has joined
  434. Ge0rG Uh-oh.
  435. pep. ! I'm here
  436. winfried so am I ;-)
  437. jonasw me 2
  438. Guus has left
  439. Steve Kille has left
  440. jonasw hands the gavel to winfried
  441. winfried bangs the gavel
  442. winfried I propose we take a look at LQ1 and subsequently continue filling the Wiki (though I have a little point we may have been forgetting)
  443. jonasw okay
  444. jonasw we aren’t lawyers, so how we’re supposed to deal with LQ1?
  445. winfried I must say, I haven't had time to update the wiki, don't know how up to date it is.
  446. pep. Sorry for the minutes last week, it's been a fun week
  447. pep. Maybe we want to start drafting a template data policy at some point?
  448. winfried pep.: I know the feeling... have double appointments on all days of this week
  449. winfried pep.: yes, I think so, but we first have to see what choices we can/have to make...
  450. Ge0rG I've had a chat with our GDPR expert, and he said that message content is similar to picture uploads. As long as we treat it as an opaque blob and don't analyze it, art9 doesn't apply. He is going to send me a reference to an according legal analysis some time today
  451. jonasw uh
  452. pep. nice
  453. jonasw that is amazing news.
  454. winfried Ge0rG: great
  455. jonasw --- except for your mod_firewall.
  456. pep. yes
  457. pep. I was thinking about that
  458. jonasw (which makes me wonder about bayes filters at big mail corps, but that’s another topic)
  459. winfried One reaction I got on LQ1 is art. 9.2e
  460. winfried but that one is without references
  461. Ge0rG From http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-51-GDPR.htm > The processing of photographs should not systematically be considered to be processing of special categories of personal data as they are covered by the definition of biometric data only when processed through a specific technical means allowing the unique identification or authentication of a natural person.
  462. winfried I propose to treat (for now) LQ1 as: "not subject to 9.1"
  463. rtq3 has left
  464. jonasw winfried, makes sense to me.
  465. Ge0rG winfried: 👍
  466. pep. mod_firewall is not making any derivative data from what it "analyses", and there's not way for us to know what triggered it right? I mean except it you log it
  467. jonasw with a huge "UNLESS you analyze the text in any way"
  468. Ge0rG jonasw: in a way that is allowed to extract art9 data
  469. Ge0rG jonasw: in a way that allows to extract art9 data
  470. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  471. jonasw Ge0rG, did you ask your GDPR expert about the fact that MAM archives are unencrypted and thus operators may access (advertendl@ or inadvertendly) message content which contains art 9 data?
  472. Ge0rG my mod_firewall isn't deriving information about sexual / religious beliefs, merely about mass-messages.
  473. jonasw Ge0rG, did you ask your GDPR expert about the fact that MAM archives are unencrypted and thus operators may access (advertendly or inadvertendly) message content which contains art 9 data?
  474. jonasw that was raised by Peter on list I think.
  475. Ge0rG jonasw: still pending.
  476. jonasw so you did ask, but not have a reply yet?
  477. winfried jonasw: does MAM have a consent mechanism? What is its default?
  478. Ge0rG jonasw: didn't have much time with him
  479. jonasw winfried, it is normally opt-in, except on Prosody ;-).
  480. pep. winfried, I don't think it has at all atm
  481. Ge0rG jonasw: we fixed that
  482. pep. jonasw, opt-in although most clients do it when available?
  483. jonasw winfried, it is normally opt-in (except on Prosody in the past ;-)).
  484. Ge0rG winfried: there is no GDPR data consent dialog when you enable MAM. Servers and clients will auto-enable it on first use, typically
  485. jonasw pep., yes, although that’s a problem of the client then.
  486. pep. yeah..
  487. Ge0rG so it's rather opt-out
  488. jonasw not conceptually, and not on the server side.
  489. marmistrz has joined
  490. pep. Ge0rG, you fixed that in what version of prosody, and when is it going to be deployed :P
  491. Zash Opt-in by server operator
  492. winfried This may be a point for an implementation guide.... or so
  493. jonasw winfried, indeed, it should be mentioned in the MAM XEP.
  494. jonasw pep., can you add that to the technical TODO?
  495. lskdjf has joined
  496. pep. that?
  497. Ge0rG winfried: except that users don't like consent dialogs ;)
  498. pep. Ah, MAM
  499. jonasw pep., "Add a note to the MAM XEP about GDPR consent requirements."
  500. lskdjf has joined
  501. Zash And clients don't expose the settings
  502. Ge0rG > pep., "Add a note to the MAM XEP about GDPR consent requirements." 👍
  503. pep. Ge0rG, well.. they'll have no choice, everybody will want to cover their asses now
  504. jonasw Ge0rG, that message did not follow my reactions draft format!
  505. jonasw I know because JabberCat didn’t show it properly ;P
  506. Ge0rG Zash: and the XEP doesn't provide a way to differentiate between "explicitly set" and "enabled by default"
  507. Ge0rG jonasw: you mean my quote-with-yaxim format that you shamelessly copied?
  508. winfried jonasw: fix JabberCat :-P
  509. @Alacer has left
  510. @Alacer has joined
  511. jonasw ahm. let’s continue with on-topic *whistles*
  512. Ge0rG yes please.
  513. jonasw Ge0rG 2018-04-17T10:46:55.668869: > yes please. 🤦🏿‍♀️
  514. vanitasvitae has joined
  515. jonasw derp.
  516. Ge0rG jonasw: `2018-04-17T10:46:55.668869`, seriously?
  517. jonasw okay, so LQ1 resolves to "Not 9.1, unless you extract 9.1-ish data from it somehow"
  518. jonasw looks at the wiki to find gaps to fill.
  519. winfried I was wondering if file transfer needs a special status in the processings XMPP does...
  520. jonasw has left
  521. Ge0rG winfried: I don't think so. it's a direct client-to-client transmission, and the server only sees metadata
  522. Ge0rG Were we done with Q1.1d S2S?
  523. pep. Ge0rG, unless BoB?
  524. jonasw Ge0rG, uhm. In-Band Bytestreams, BoB, HTTP Upload
  525. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we have all of that covered by "user content"
  526. jonasw so unless you happen to do TURN-less jingle (rather rare), I don’t see how that’s client-to-client.
  527. jonasw possibly
  528. Ge0rG * typical: with account, MAM/files for a given amount of time
  529. pep. yeah
  530. Maranda has joined
  531. winfried Ge0rG: adding that covers it all?
  532. Ge0rG winfried: it's in the wiki already
  533. winfried ah, switching back and forth on a small screen right now... (sitting in the middle of THE care ICT trade in NL right now)
  534. winfried Q1.1d s2s
  535. pep. hmm, there's a bit on 1.1d in the wiki, but that's not last week's
  536. winfried they are notes from earlier meetings
  537. pep. Also I propose we skip 1.1e, as I don't feel confident going into even more speculation
  538. pep. IANAL
  539. winfried looking at Q1.1d, I realized there are two things to cover
  540. vanilla has joined
  541. winfried the transfer of the data itself
  542. winfried and the processing of the data on the other server
  543. winfried both need a legal ground
  544. Ge0rG winfried: I'd argue legitimate interest of the user to get messages delivered, for both points.
  545. Ge0rG winfried: that also implies that the other data processor may not apply processing to the data that goes beyond what's needed for that legitimate interest
  546. alexis has left
  547. alexis has joined
  548. winfried Ge0rG: what article do you mean by legitimate interest?
  549. Ge0rG winfried: 6(1)b
  550. winfried Ge0rG: yes agree
  551. alexis has left
  552. alexis has joined
  553. winfried and agree to the limitation you mention
  554. pep. But we can't assume that can we
  555. Ge0rG For Q1.1e we should probably write down all these things into a data processing policy
  556. winfried Ge0rG: exactly, this something we should cover in Q1.1e
  557. winfried pep.: in some way we need to 'safeguard' we can assume this
  558. alexis has left
  559. edhelas has left
  560. alexis has joined
  561. edhelas has joined
  562. @Alacer has left
  563. @Alacer has joined
  564. pep. There might be server admins that will want to assume the worst and ask consent for most things
  565. Ge0rG pep.: for third-country servers, Art. 49(1)b should apply in the same way as 6(1)b for intra-EU
  566. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  567. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we can say that the user has a contract with the server operator, and that sending data to another user on another server is part of the contract
  568. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  569. winfried Do we have Q1.1d covered like this?
  570. Ge0rG winfried: is incoming s2s different from outgoing s2s? What about spam protection?
  571. winfried That are two questions
  572. daniel has left
  573. winfried lets brainstorm on the first one first
  574. winfried outgoing: the originating server operator is responsible for the transfer
  575. Ge0rG Are there any restrictions on data imported from third countries?
  576. winfried Ge0rG: no, because the EU has the best data protection laws :-D
  577. pep. yet
  578. winfried so outgoing the operator wants to know the incoming server stays to the 'legitimate interest'
  579. Ge0rG But there is COPA!
  580. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  581. Ge0rG winfried: I don't think we can enforce any kind of remote server processing restrictions at the protocol / logical level.
  582. Ge0rG winfried: it might be sane to assume all data sent over s2s as "third country"
  583. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  584. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  585. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  586. winfried incoming: though you may have a different contract with your own users (e.g. we publish everything) you *have* to assume incoming limits to legitimate interest
  587. jonasw so no storage in MAM?
  588. winfried Ge0rG: no, that is something that needs to be legally enforced
  589. Ge0rG winfried: MAM is covered by legitimate interest of the receiver, I'd say
  590. jonasw even MAM forever?
  591. Ge0rG jonasw: how is MAM forever different from the receiver putting logs of the chat up into the cloud?
  592. jonasw it may not be
  593. Ge0rG jonasw: MAM is controlled by the user(s client)
  594. Ge0rG so from a legal PoV, the receiving user is responsible for MAM.
  595. jonasw and that’s what I’ve been saying a few weeks ago but I got shot down here :)
  596. Ge0rG jonasw: but not by me, as I do agree with that interpretation
  597. jonasw not sure, maybe I was simply unclear.
  598. winfried checks his guns if he accidently shot jonasw - oops, gun logs are purged
  599. Ge0rG so incoming s2s user data: might get stored in receiver's MAM
  600. Ge0rG also in offline storage, but I'd argue this is still part of the sender's legitimate interest
  601. winfried I am still chewing on: » [13:11:05] <jonasw> even MAM forever?
  602. vanilla has joined
  603. Ge0rG winfried: what's your issue with that?
  604. moparisthebest has joined
  605. winfried it is disproportionate in any way, but who's responsibility is it?
  606. winfried It is upon request of the user (hopefully)
  607. jonasw if it’s upon the request of the User, I’d argue that for the Purpose of storing the messages on the server, the User is the Controller and the Server (Operator) is merely the Processor.
  608. Ge0rG In theory, MAM should require consent from the user.
  609. ludo has left
  610. jonasw and thus it’s the users responsibility
  611. ludo has joined
  612. Ge0rG jonasw: that means the user needs to have full control over the data processing, including a way to purge the data.
  613. pep. As long as there is consent I don't think it's disproprotionate. Now, that means we also need to provide means to alter this history?
  614. Ge0rG pep.: consent from the receiving user?
  615. winfried user can't be the controller (in the legal sense) but a controller may process when the user wants him too
  616. pep. Ge0rG, or just prune parts
  617. jonasw Ge0rG, we need that for MAM anyways, I think?
  618. pep. Ge0rG, yes receiving
  619. jonasw tombstoning is at least provisioned. purging everything *up to a date* is possible, too.
  620. winfried yes
  621. Valerian has joined
  622. Guus has left
  623. Ge0rG jonasw: will MAM auto-purge if you disable it?
  624. jonasw Ge0rG, I sure hope so :)
  625. pep. I find tombstones useless, as it will only be for this particular user, the rest don't have to respect that, but well. purging has different use-cases
  626. jonasw has left
  627. winfried Ge0rG: that should be added to the MAM-XEP too...
  628. Ge0rG winfried: I tend to agree.
  629. pep. Is there a way to disable even
  630. pep. Also MAM MUC is separate right?
  631. Ge0rG pep.: yes
  632. Ge0rG and yes
  633. rtq3 has joined
  634. winfried On a MAM MUC: policy of publishing logs should be published
  635. vanilla has joined
  636. pep. winfried, publishing as in http-like?
  637. pep. Or just providing MAM for other participants
  638. winfried pep.: yes
  639. Ge0rG winfried: MUC MAM should mimic MUC access.
  640. vanilla has joined
  641. winfried like: XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  642. Ge0rG not sure if more hints are needed there.
  643. lnj has joined
  644. pep. Yeah I agree with Ge0rG on that
  645. pep. should we plan for next?
  646. Ge0rG yes please.
  647. winfried I would argue that it is not obvious that the logs are published and it is not necessary for 6.1b
  648. Ge0rG winfried: I think that like with MAM, this is a client UX todo
  649. Ge0rG so should be a tech todo for us
  650. daniel has left
  651. andy has left
  652. pep. Ge0rG, hmm, publishing logs publicly (or even with some kind of auth) is server policy
  653. Ge0rG also please put the "spam handling" question on our TODO for next
  654. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  655. pep. (some kind of auth, not over xmpp**)
  656. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  657. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  658. pep. So, next?
  659. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-logging
  660. Ge0rG > If the user is entering a room in which the discussions are logged to a public archive (often accessible via HTTP), the service SHOULD allow the user to enter the room but MUST also warn the user that the discussions are logged.
  661. andy has joined
  662. winfried (Yes, I can live with a tech todo on announcing log publication)
  663. jonasw winfried, MUC MAM access should be clearly defined (tech TODO), and there’s a presence status code for public logging (some clients already show that)
  664. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  665. Holger has left
  666. pep. Ge0rG, yes, so that's handled already which is good, but it is a concern
  667. winfried Spam handling for next meeting
  668. pep. I can't do +1, can do +2 and more
  669. rtq3 has left
  670. rtq3 has joined
  671. Ge0rG I can't do this time Wed or Thu.
  672. winfried this week is not possible for me... or it should be friday on 16:00 CEST
  673. Ge0rG +1 for Fri 1600CEST
  674. pep. Fine by me
  675. winfried jonasw: Friday 16:00 CEST?
  676. pep. The spam handling question is in relation to 9.1 right? or not just?
  677. andy has left
  678. winfried pep.: yes, we may enter the realms of 9.1 there, but we may also run into some different issues, like automated decision making
  679. winfried (to add more fun to it....)
  680. pep. Does that fall under anything? it's "analysing" right?
  681. pep. I mean worst that can happen to that is 9.1 right?
  682. jonasw winfried, hm, that’s tricky for me
  683. jonasw but I can arrange that once
  684. winfried jonasw: If possible, that would be great
  685. jonasw okay
  686. Ge0rG pep.: the question is probably whether we can do spam detection without going outside of 6.1
  687. jonasw will do
  688. pep. Ge0rG, yeah
  689. winfried jonasw: thanks
  690. pep. We should also try to see where we are with the goals at some point, regarding the "deadline"
  691. pep. Fri 1600CEST it is then
  692. pep. *bang*
  693. winfried I think we are chewing away slowly
  694. winfried but doing a great job, bit by bit things are getting clear
  695. winfried and I think we are closer then we expect!
  696. pep. I should try to come up with some requirements for the EULA XEP
  697. winfried keep up the job!
  698. pep. I have no idea what to use protocol-wise, but we can do that later
  699. winfried pep.: yes, think we are about at that point, Q1.1e
  700. Ge0rG pep.: I thik we should first create the general EULA/ToS structure, then see which parts of it need encoding
  701. winfried bangs the gavel once again, good work guys!
  702. Ge0rG There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P3P
  703. pep. nice
  704. pep. I wonder why that is "obsolete"
  705. winfried yes, it is, but probably an overshoot for our purposes
  706. Holger has joined
  707. andy has joined
  708. pep. "[..] P3P has not been implemented widely due to the difficulty and lack of value."
  709. winfried it is hard to uniquely encode legal stuf to computer code
  710. pep. Lack of value as in, every website has a privacy policy?
  711. pep. right
  712. winfried no pressing legal needs, not high enough fines ;-)
  713. winfried the GDPR may resurrect it...
  714. pep. nah I think everybody's got their own framework nowadays
  715. pep. At least the big ones
  716. winfried pep.: it tries to solve an esoteric problem that most people neatly try to ignore
  717. daniel has left
  718. Dave Cridland has left
  719. winfried even in the medical world (where legal status is a big issue), everybody loves to ignore the problems that come along with it
  720. Dave Cridland has left
  721. winfried or to state it differently: if you can communicate about a problem, you also need to solve it...
  722. Ge0rG Ah, my coworker sent me some info re 9.1: profile photos of employees are not article9 related data as long as they are not analyzed
  723. pep. What does analyze mean here?
  724. pep. If they're displayed internally that's ..?
  725. pep. That requires consent I assume
  726. marc has joined
  727. winfried pep.: categorized to categories like: 'gender, color of skin, skin-disorders, gaydar result' etc
  728. winfried displaying needs consent
  729. winfried have to go now, see you on friday
  730. pep. see you
  731. UsL gaydar haha
  732. winfried has left
  733. Dave Cridland has left
  734. UsL I guess its time to submerge in the gdpr stuff. Havn't really had the time yet. This metting made me curious
  735. UsL s/metting/meeting
  736. pep. Ge0rG, so if we regard messages as opaque, that means we can also do the same for emails right. That would definitely simplify things here at work
  737. Dave Cridland has left
  738. Guus has left
  739. winfried has left
  740. Ge0rG pep.: yes, I'd say so
  741. Ge0rG pep.: same spam caveats apply
  742. winfried has left
  743. Holger has left
  744. daniel has left
  745. rtq3 has left
  746. Guus has left
  747. Dave Cridland has left
  748. Dave Cridland has left
  749. tux has joined
  750. Guus has left
  751. Dave Cridland has left
  752. pep. Yeah
  753. winfried has left
  754. jjrh has left
  755. pep. Though, for company emails that's different right? Maybe the company can assume that everything that's done under company email is for work (even if I know it's never always the case)
  756. winfried has left
  757. Holger has left
  758. marc has left
  759. winfried has left
  760. winfried has left
  761. Steve Kille has left
  762. andy has joined
  763. winfried has left
  764. Dave Cridland has left
  765. winfried has left
  766. winfried has left
  767. Dave Cridland has left
  768. Holger has left
  769. winfried has left
  770. winfried has left
  771. vanitasvitae has left
  772. Dave Cridland has left
  773. winfried has left
  774. winfried has left
  775. winfried has left
  776. Dave Cridland has left
  777. daniel has left
  778. Holger has left
  779. winfried has left
  780. Dave Cridland has left
  781. Dave Cridland has left
  782. winfried has left
  783. winfried has left
  784. Dave Cridland has left
  785. Ge0rG has joined
  786. winfried has left
  787. winfried has left
  788. vanilla has joined
  789. vanilla has joined
  790. Steve Kille has joined
  791. rtq3 has joined
  792. Dave Cridland has left
  793. Dave Cridland has left
  794. winfried has left
  795. jere has joined
  796. Dave Cridland has left
  797. ta has joined
  798. ta has joined
  799. andy has left
  800. andy has joined
  801. Dave Cridland has left
  802. vanilla has joined
  803. andy has left
  804. andy has joined
  805. vanilla has joined
  806. winfried has left
  807. jubalh has joined
  808. jubalh has left
  809. Dave Cridland has left
  810. lnj has left
  811. Dave Cridland has left
  812. vanilla has joined
  813. vanilla has joined
  814. winfried has left
  815. Dave Cridland has left
  816. andy has left
  817. winfried has left
  818. winfried has left
  819. andy has joined
  820. Dave Cridland has left
  821. andy has left
  822. andy has joined
  823. Dave Cridland has left
  824. lskdjf has left
  825. p4kg866xx has joined
  826. p4kg866xx has left
  827. winfried has left
  828. winfried has left
  829. rtq3 has left
  830. winfried has left
  831. winfried has left
  832. andy has left
  833. andy has joined
  834. Guus has left
  835. Guus has left
  836. andy has left
  837. andy has joined
  838. Dave Cridland has left
  839. winfried has left
  840. rion has left
  841. rion has joined
  842. winfried has left
  843. vanilla has joined
  844. rtq3 has joined
  845. Dave Cridland has left
  846. Guus has left
  847. andy has left
  848. andy has joined
  849. vanilla has joined
  850. alexis has left
  851. Dave Cridland has left
  852. Dave Cridland has left
  853. Dave Cridland has left
  854. winfried has left
  855. @Alacer has left
  856. winfried has left
  857. vanilla has joined
  858. vanilla has joined
  859. winfried has left
  860. @Alacer has joined
  861. andy has left
  862. andy has joined
  863. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  864. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  865. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  866. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  867. Dave Cridland has left
  868. Dave Cridland has left
  869. winfried has left
  870. winfried has left
  871. winfried has left
  872. alexis has joined
  873. winfried has left
  874. Dave Cridland has left
  875. Steve Kille has left
  876. winfried has left
  877. Valerian has left
  878. Maranda > winfried: I don't think we can enforce any kind of remote server processing restrictions at the protocol / logical level. > winfried: it might be sane to assume all data sent over s2s as "third country" 🕺
  879. @Alacer has left
  880. @Alacer has joined
  881. Dave Cridland has left
  882. alexis has left
  883. lnj has left
  884. ThibG has left
  885. ThibG has joined
  886. alexis has joined
  887. winfried has left
  888. Dave Cridland has left
  889. lnj has joined
  890. edhelas has left
  891. winfried has left
  892. mrdoctorwho has left
  893. edhelas has joined
  894. winfried has left
  895. jubalh has joined
  896. Valerian has joined
  897. jubalh has left
  898. jubalh has joined
  899. winfried has left
  900. winfried has left
  901. winfried has left
  902. moparisthebest has left
  903. winfried has left
  904. winfried has left
  905. andy has left
  906. andy has joined
  907. moparisthebest The watchdog’s actions prompted Kremlin officials to move from Telegram to the ICQ chat service, owned by billionaire Alisher Usmanov’s Mail.ru, for communications with Russian and international media.
  908. Guus has left
  909. Guus has left
  910. moparisthebest soooo, ICQ still exists? wow
  911. jjrh has left
  912. jjrh has left
  913. Maranda Yes
  914. alexis has left
  915. rtq3 has left
  916. alexis has joined
  917. jjrh has left
  918. Dave Cridland has left
  919. Ge0rG ICQ is owned by Russia now? wow
  920. winfried has left
  921. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: as is vKontakte :)
  922. Dave Cridland has left
  923. ThibG has joined
  924. lnj has joined
  925. alexis has left
  926. alexis has joined
  927. ta has joined
  928. Dave Cridland has left
  929. UsL a far leap from the Israeli mirabilis..
  930. Ge0rG Mossad, CIA, FSB. It's been a long journey
  931. moul has joined
  932. rtq3 has joined
  933. jubalh has joined
  934. UsL indeed : )
  935. j.r has left
  936. Steve Kille has joined
  937. marmistrz has left
  938. j.r has joined
  939. andy has left
  940. efrit has left
  941. Dave Cridland has left
  942. SamWhited has left
  943. Alex has left
  944. SamWhited has joined
  945. Dave Cridland has left
  946. jjrh has left
  947. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  948. jjrh has left
  949. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  950. efrit has joined
  951. Dave Cridland has left
  952. jjrh has left
  953. Guus has left
  954. jere has left
  955. tux has joined
  956. Dave Cridland has left
  957. jere has joined
  958. j.r has left
  959. alexis has left
  960. alexis has joined
  961. vanitasvitae has left
  962. vanitasvitae has joined
  963. Guus has left
  964. ludo has left
  965. ludo has joined
  966. Dave Cridland has left
  967. blabla has joined
  968. Dave Cridland has left
  969. Guus has left
  970. rtq3 has left
  971. ludo has left
  972. ludo has joined
  973. Dave Cridland has left
  974. lskdjf has joined
  975. Dave Cridland has left
  976. winfried has left
  977. winfried has joined
  978. @Alacer has left
  979. @Alacer has joined
  980. Dave Cridland has left
  981. blabla has left
  982. Dave Cridland has left
  983. efrit has left
  984. SaltyBones has left
  985. Steve Kille has left
  986. rtq3 has joined
  987. waqas has joined
  988. lskdjf has joined
  989. moparisthebest has left
  990. Dave Cridland has left
  991. daniel has left
  992. vanitasvitae has joined
  993. rtq3 has left
  994. rtq3 has joined
  995. Dave Cridland has left
  996. matlag has left
  997. blabla has left
  998. Steve Kille has joined
  999. Dave Cridland has left
  1000. alexis has left
  1001. jjrh has left
  1002. alexis has joined
  1003. jjrh has left
  1004. Valerian has left
  1005. jjrh has left
  1006. lumi has left
  1007. jubalh has joined
  1008. jubalh has left
  1009. lovetox has joined
  1010. mrdoctorwho has left
  1011. rion has left
  1012. rion has joined
  1013. rtq3 has left
  1014. jubalh has joined
  1015. waqas has left
  1016. waqas has joined
  1017. jere has joined
  1018. sezuan has left
  1019. ibikk has joined
  1020. vanitasvitae has left
  1021. Dave Cridland has left
  1022. andy has joined
  1023. Tim has left
  1024. Tim has left
  1025. alexis has left
  1026. Dave Cridland has left
  1027. alexis has joined
  1028. Guus has left
  1029. Tim has joined
  1030. jere has joined
  1031. marc has joined
  1032. alexis has left
  1033. alexis has joined
  1034. lskdjf has left
  1035. alexis has left
  1036. alexis has joined
  1037. Guus has left
  1038. moparisthebest The expert believes that another way to blackmail inattentive server owners is by creating snapshots of the exposed servers and contacting companies after May 25, asking for a Bitcoin ransom not to report the company to EU authorities, where they stand to receive a hefty fine.
  1039. Tim has joined
  1040. moparisthebest ha who knew EU was introducing a new way to blackmail companies? thanks EU ! :)
  1041. jere has left
  1042. jere has joined
  1043. Tim has joined
  1044. Guus has left
  1045. Guus has left
  1046. Guus has left
  1047. rtq3 has joined
  1048. Valerian has joined
  1049. Valerian has left
  1050. Valerian has joined
  1051. ralphm has left
  1052. Dave Cridland has left
  1053. edhelas has left
  1054. edhelas has joined
  1055. Dave Cridland has left
  1056. Dave Cridland has left
  1057. Maranda well so Cisco Jabber is actually capable of STARTTLS on s2s streams 🤔
  1058. Maranda why not enabling that on cisco.com then
  1059. Maranda pft
  1060. Dave Cridland has left
  1061. Dave Cridland has left
  1062. rtq3 has left
  1063. lovetox has left
  1064. j.r has joined
  1065. ludo has left
  1066. ludo has joined
  1067. Dave Cridland has left
  1068. Dave Cridland has left
  1069. Dave Cridland has left
  1070. marc has left
  1071. ludo has left
  1072. ludo has joined
  1073. Dave Cridland has left
  1074. Dave Cridland has left
  1075. Dave Cridland has left
  1076. Dave Cridland has left
  1077. Dave Cridland has left
  1078. Dave Cridland has left
  1079. Dave Cridland has left
  1080. SamWhited has left
  1081. Dave Cridland has left
  1082. jubalh has left
  1083. Dave Cridland has left
  1084. Dave Cridland has left
  1085. Dave Cridland has left
  1086. Dave Cridland has left
  1087. vanitasvitae has joined
  1088. sezuan has left
  1089. sezuan has joined
  1090. rtq3 has joined
  1091. rtq3 has left
  1092. rtq3 has joined
  1093. Dave Cridland has left
  1094. Dave Cridland has left
  1095. vanitasvitae has left
  1096. vanitasvitae has joined
  1097. Dave Cridland has left
  1098. Dave Cridland has left
  1099. marc has joined
  1100. Dave Cridland has left
  1101. Dave Cridland has left
  1102. Valerian has left
  1103. rtq3 has left
  1104. ralphm has joined
  1105. vanitasvitae has left
  1106. la|r|ma has joined
  1107. jere has left
  1108. ibikk has left
  1109. tux has joined
  1110. Dave Cridland has left
  1111. Valerian has joined
  1112. lnj has left
  1113. ralphm has left
  1114. jere has joined
  1115. Guus has left
  1116. Tobias has left
  1117. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1118. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1119. Dave Cridland has left
  1120. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1121. fippo maranda: it is. iirc you only get that if you talk to the people over there though
  1122. edhelas has left
  1123. Maranda fippo I'm not sure I understand, a lot of users on my server have cisco.com contacts and cisco.com never encrypts, that's why I need to still have an exception for it.
  1124. Dave Cridland has left
  1125. Dave Cridland has left
  1126. Holger Maranda: Same here. And yes Cisco Jabber does support STARTTLS on s2s.
  1127. fippo maranda: s/people/admins/
  1128. Dave Cridland has left
  1129. vanitasvitae has joined
  1130. lnj has joined
  1131. rtq3 has joined
  1132. Dave Cridland has left
  1133. Dave Cridland has left
  1134. ThibG has left
  1135. ThibG has joined
  1136. marc has left
  1137. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1138. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1139. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1140. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1141. ludo has left
  1142. ludo has joined
  1143. Maranda 🤔
  1144. fippo from what i heard they need to enable tls for a particular peer domain. but that was ~5 years ago
  1145. Maranda fippo, and they don't enable it on cisco.com ? lol
  1146. waqas I think he means they need to enable it for your domain
  1147. waqas That seems like such a pain
  1148. Maranda waqas, and I repeat: *and they don't enable it on cisco.com ? lol*
  1149. Maranda 😏
  1150. fippo cisco.com admins have to enable tls for your domain.
  1151. Maranda cisco.com *IS* the domain
  1152. fippo you run cisco.com?
  1153. Maranda No I don't
  1154. Maranda But I'm connecting to it
  1155. Zash ...
  1156. Maranda (via s2s)
  1157. Maranda (and viceversa)
  1158. fippo so cisco.com will look at your domain, check its config "is this guy trustworthy to enable tls?" and probably not find anything
  1159. Maranda . . .
  1160. Zash Maranda: Pretty sure you wrote a plugin that does exacly this.
  1161. lnj has left
  1162. Maranda Ok sorry I got it now, and it's hilarious.
  1163. Maranda So,
  1164. Dave Cridland has left
  1165. Maranda *they* have to enable tls for s2s on a particular *remote* domain? *REALLY*?
  1166. Dave Cridland has left
  1167. Maranda face desks.
  1168. fippo job security for the admin. i've seen similar things in lync
  1169. Maranda Zash, mine is an exception to make it work, this is just purely demented.
  1170. Dave Cridland has left
  1171. Maranda fippo, and I didn't catch "peer" when reading, tired eyes/brain :)
  1172. marc has left
  1173. fippo at least you don't start scratching your eyes out now that you understood it :-)
  1174. rtq3 has left
  1175. rtq3 has joined
  1176. lumi has joined
  1177. Alex has joined
  1178. Valerian has left
  1179. Valerian has joined
  1180. moparisthebest our lync only federates if the admins explicitly set it up for specific remote domains
  1181. moparisthebest basically ruins the concept of federation, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  1182. Maranda that's fair
  1183. Maranda not enabling tls *if offered* without admin intervention is dumb imho.
  1184. moparisthebest yes that does seem far dumber
  1185. Valerian has left
  1186. Valerian has joined
  1187. Zash What's wrong with per remote feature settings? Other than the usuall _encrypt all the things_
  1188. Alex has left
  1189. Maranda If I respond nothing other than, will that trigger some trap? 😎
  1190. Zash You will be locked in a room along with a packet capture and not let out until you find the layer 8 problem in the encrypted stream.
  1191. Maranda Disabling TLS does make sense if the other end does have issues with it or not support, the other way around: E_DOESNT_COMPUTE
  1192. Maranda Hehe
  1193. j.r has joined
  1194. Holger You can enable TLS for all s2s connections in Cisco Jabber these days.
  1195. jjrh has left
  1196. Maranda Holger, yes I found out stumbling on buffalo.edu
  1197. Dave Cridland has left
  1198. jjrh has left
  1199. Guus has left
  1200. jjrh has left
  1201. jjrh has left
  1202. lskdjf has left
  1203. Ge0rG Hm. The only contact I had on Cisco.com changed his job recently, so I can't care much any more
  1204. edhelas That's maybe a sign
  1205. lskdjf has joined
  1206. jjrh has left
  1207. Dave Cridland has left
  1208. lnj has joined
  1209. Maranda Ge0rG, I still see traffic, also there some more contacts from I think hosted domains, also nike.com
  1210. lskdjf has left
  1211. Tobias has joined
  1212. lskdjf has left
  1213. SamWhited has left
  1214. lskdjf has joined
  1215. lskdjf has left
  1216. Guus has left
  1217. Tobias has joined
  1218. lskdjf has joined
  1219. Maranda has joined
  1220. marmistrz has joined
  1221. SamWhited has joined
  1222. waqas Lync was the other service I was thinking of where I had to deal with this. I'm happy I haven't had to deal with Lync in a few years…it's great for job security though
  1223. @Alacer has left
  1224. moparisthebest it's "Skype for Business" now, and blue instead of green, still can't reliably send files though so at least some things don't change
  1225. Guus has left
  1226. Guus has left
  1227. @Alacer has joined
  1228. waqas It was very much enterprise, MS tech people helping us set it up failed (because we had a cloud based environment, and they had a very weird set of hardware and network topology requirements…)
  1229. Ge0rG I'd love to know how to federate with Lync from my XMPP server. Or even how to login from XMPP as a given Lync user.
  1230. edhelas has left
  1231. moparisthebest the lync admins have to set up a special XMPP federation bridge
  1232. moparisthebest and in practice it seems no one does this
  1233. Dave Cridland has left
  1234. Ge0rG What if our Lync is hosted in O365?
  1235. moparisthebest I used to have a lync transport from xmpp, using libpurple-sipe and such, but it broke years ago
  1236. Ge0rG libpurple. I'm not going down that road.
  1237. waqas MattJ: Had we succeeded in the Prosody-Lync bridge, or did we never manage it? I recall it being a works-with-ejabberd product, not proper XMPP.
  1238. moparisthebest ours is on O365 and federation is still something they have to turn on manually, maybe it's just an admin setting there? don't know
  1239. waqas IIRC it was sensitive to e.g., certain consecutive parts of the stream being in the same TCP packet or not, etc. Lots of other fun things we ran into. Skype for Business UX also is terrible.
  1240. waqas (dumb stuff like sending an XMPP message to someone wouldn't show a notification, so they'd never know)
  1241. Maranda 🤔
  1242. moparisthebest all the time we get a popup in the corner 'PERSONX sent you a message [accept] [ignore]'
  1243. moparisthebest and then you click accept, and you don't see the first few messages they sent before you clicked accept
  1244. moparisthebest I honestly don't know how people think this is a good system
  1245. Maranda didn't you need some Lync Edge Server vattelapesca thing for xmpp federation?
  1246. waqas moparisthebest: Ask your admins :P
  1247. marc has joined
  1248. waqas Yes, it's a bridge
  1249. moparisthebest the best thing is just a braindead policy decision
  1250. waqas We were annoyed enough that we were considering if it'd be saner to use a Prosody->SIP->Lync setup
  1251. moparisthebest we must use contractors for new development, contractors can have VPN access to our systems, contractors cannot have lync accounts, so we can't IM them
  1252. moparisthebest I ended up setting up an IRC server and https://kiwiirc.com/ on a dev server :'(
  1253. Maranda I don't wanna know the usual CAL junk in le MS Fashion behind something like Lync though (one of the reason everyone needing M$ going cloudy these days)
  1254. ta has joined
  1255. Maranda (the CALs are "included")
  1256. moparisthebest now corporate is spamming us with these emails to use "Yammer" which as far as I can tell is a microsoft workplace facebook/twitter clone or something
  1257. moparisthebest who would seriously want to do this?????
  1258. remko has left
  1259. lovetox has joined
  1260. daniel has left
  1261. Ge0rG So everyone agrees Lync is a horrible mess. But nobody has an XMPP-based drop-in replacement with screen sharing and VoIP
  1262. Dave Cridland has left
  1263. Zash Jitsi?
  1264. moparisthebest doesn't matter, lync screen sharing and voip never works
  1265. moparisthebest we use webex for that
  1266. Ge0rG moparisthebest: screen sharing works well here, voip mostly
  1267. moparisthebest voip on lync has *never* worked for us, we use conference calls or webex
  1268. moparisthebest screen sharing used to work until about a month ago
  1269. moparisthebest then they decided to fix the terrible latency by reducing quality to a point where you can't read letters anymore
  1270. moparisthebest so, now it is also useless
  1271. waqas Ge0rG: An XMPP replacement wouldn't help. Those who could already jumped over to Slack (I know a few orgs which migrated to Slack from enterprise IM solutions).
  1272. waqas I think the Lync team has learned that given how their product is sold to enterprise exec teams, usability and quality doesn't actually impact the bottom line.
  1273. Ge0rG moparisthebest: hm. interesting point. I had bad lags with a coworker today, but I blamed his wifi
  1274. moparisthebest that seems correct waqas , it's just part of the exchange/outlook package
  1275. Ge0rG waqas: I don't care about Slack and I'd love to migrate our 20-person business away.
  1276. Ge0rG waqas: unfortunately, the Outlook / calendar integration is a huge selling point
  1277. waqas And integration with the MS stack in general, the admin tools, policies, etc
  1278. Guus has left
  1279. j.r has joined
  1280. j.r has left
  1281. j.r has joined
  1282. Ge0rG Yeah, but I suppose I could convince my coworkers with a better mobile UX if we keep screen sharing and possibly VoIP
  1283. waqas How's skype for business on mobile? I've only seen it on desktop
  1284. j.r has joined
  1285. j.r has joined
  1286. j.r has joined
  1287. blabla has joined
  1288. Valerian has left
  1289. Valerian has joined
  1290. Guus has left
  1291. Valerian has left
  1292. jubalh has joined
  1293. j.r has joined
  1294. j.r has joined
  1295. j.r has left
  1296. j.r has joined
  1297. j.r has left
  1298. j.r has joined
  1299. Guus has left
  1300. j.r has left
  1301. j.r has joined
  1302. Ge0rG waqas: it sucks. Pretty bloated app, and you don't get messages to both Desktop and mobile
  1303. Ge0rG So you have message loss along the way
  1304. j.r has joined
  1305. Ge0rG Kind of like xmpp without 0198 and carbons
  1306. Yagiza has left
  1307. Dave Cridland has left
  1308. j.r has joined
  1309. j.r has joined
  1310. j.r has joined
  1311. jubalh has left
  1312. j.r has joined
  1313. Maranda And crashes on startup sync in the best Skype tradition?
  1314. Maranda :P
  1315. j.r has joined
  1316. Maranda or not?
  1317. Dave Cridland has left
  1318. j.r has joined
  1319. j.r has joined
  1320. ta has joined
  1321. j.r has left
  1322. j.r has joined
  1323. moparisthebest our stuff is hosted on O365 but still only allows connections from the work VPN
  1324. moparisthebest so it's the worst of both worlds
  1325. j.r has joined
  1326. j.r has joined
  1327. Dave Cridland has left
  1328. j.r has joined
  1329. jere has joined
  1330. j.r has joined
  1331. j.r has joined
  1332. j.r has joined
  1333. jere has joined
  1334. j.r has joined
  1335. sezuan has left
  1336. j.r has joined
  1337. j.r has joined
  1338. j.r has left
  1339. j.r has joined
  1340. ludo has left
  1341. lskdjf has joined
  1342. lskdjf has left
  1343. ibikk has left
  1344. marmistrz has left
  1345. andy has left
  1346. ibikk has joined
  1347. lumi has left
  1348. lumi has joined
  1349. lumi has left
  1350. lumi has joined
  1351. jjrh Kinda surprised enterprises are going slack considering it's like $8 a seat.
  1352. jjrh I mean $80 a month for 10 users is pretty steep
  1353. Zash That's probably nothing for an ENTERPRISE
  1354. Ge0rG Yeah, or they just stick to the free plan somehow
  1355. jjrh I'm not sure it's a great deal for enterprises who need like 1000 seats.
  1356. MattJ Any idea how much Lync costs?
  1357. Maranda jjrh, for 5000 users with M$ Exchange you may arrive to pay like $800k a year
  1358. Zash Any idea how much the coffee consumed by 1k people costs?
  1359. jjrh Maranda, yeah but exchange provides a whole lot more than chat.
  1360. Maranda (that's licensing)
  1361. lskdjf has left
  1362. Dave Cridland has left
  1363. jjrh I mean that's still nutty to me but considering email is in many cases more critical than even phones I can see businesses justifying it.
  1364. remko has joined
  1365. Maranda jjrh, hmm not really beside some very nutty cases of course :P
  1366. jjrh has left
  1367. jjrh has left
  1368. lovetox has left
  1369. lovetox has joined
  1370. Maranda jjrh, and doesn't provide that much, spam wise for example Exchange doesn't support SPF, DMARC or DKIM iirc, only O365/OWA (Hotmail) does.
  1371. SamWhited protip: enterprises don't care at all how much it costs as long as they can get a demo, good support, and a fixed and predictable price that includes the ability to expand service in the future. $8 per seat is *nothing* compared to the cost of the paycheck of all the people who will have to set it up and deal with it.
  1372. lskdjf has left
  1373. Zash has left
  1374. Maranda SamWhited, not at that level :P, infact you won't see a single ISP (beside Microsoft itself) ever deploying Exchange.
  1375. jjrh SamWhited, I mean I totally get that and i'm not suggesting enterprises deploy and support their own solution for chat, but it seems like $8 per seat (and their enterprise version is like $12) isn't a great deal when say https://about.mattermost.com/pricing/ has a $3.25 a seat and a 'custom pricing' for when you have a lot of users.
  1376. jjrh I dunno maybe mattermost sucks never used it
  1377. Maranda but of course 8*5000 = 40k so it's doable :P
  1378. Maranda 12 per seat as well
  1379. SamWhited Does mattermost provide them with a person who flies out and does a demo?
  1380. SamWhited Do they provide SLAs? Really good tech support?
  1381. jjrh Probably
  1382. jubalh has joined
  1383. Maranda I wonder how people will do with the recent Slack introductions
  1384. SamWhited I have no idea, they might, but the price just doesn't matter at all.
  1385. Maranda in terms of privacy
  1386. jubalh has left
  1387. jubalh has joined
  1388. jjrh I'd be curious how much profit slack is actually making. Maybe their pricing is to offset the free offerings and their hosting costs are dirt cheap so they don't really need many customers
  1389. Guus has left
  1390. SamWhited Also, places that used to buy from a previous job I was in did heavy risk analysis: will mattermost go out of business tomorrow and we'll have to switch again? Not likely, but maybe. Will Slack? Probably not.
  1391. Maranda (Like that a team owner or something has access to all the data, even private message)
  1392. SamWhited Do you not have that with mattermost? Because that's also a plus for slack in the enterprise space if so
  1393. Zash compliance logging and such, yeah
  1394. SamWhited But anyways, point was that price doesn't matter at all. It's probably not even part of their considerations. Stuff like that does.
  1395. efrit has joined
  1396. rtq3 has left
  1397. rtq3 has joined
  1398. jjrh I'm not sure I would bank on slack staying in business. Chat is fickle, and a logical thing for voip providers to start selling.
  1399. marc has left
  1400. remko has left
  1401. jjrh I would think that enterprises would be a little nervous about having their chat data hosted in datacenters they don't own. Maybe if you're dropping half a million a year slack will do whatever you want.
  1402. rtq3 has left
  1403. SamWhited Yah, that part is the tough one. Depending on who you are and what you do, a lot of places really have to have a behind-the-firewall version, which is why HipChat Server makes so much money.
  1404. rtq3 has joined
  1405. fippo cisco also had some fancy stuff about full encryption (including search) for spark. selling point apparently
  1406. Dave Cridland has left
  1407. SamWhited oh nifty, I didn't know that; I really wanted to try to build something like that while at HipChat but couldn't convince anyone that it would be a selling point.
  1408. lnj has left
  1409. Guus has left
  1410. fippo samwhited: https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/solutions/collateral/collaboration/cloud-collaboration/cisco-spark-security-white-paper.pdf
  1411. rtq3 has left
  1412. rtq3 has joined
  1413. SamWhited thanks
  1414. Steve Kille has left
  1415. marc has left
  1416. edhelas has joined
  1417. edhelas has left
  1418. rion has left
  1419. edhelas has joined
  1420. lnj has left
  1421. Nekit has joined
  1422. Nekit has joined
  1423. lskdjf has joined
  1424. lskdjf has left
  1425. Maranda has joined
  1426. tux has left
  1427. Dave Cridland has left
  1428. lskdjf has joined
  1429. Dave Cridland has left
  1430. Guus has left
  1431. Dave Cridland has left
  1432. Dave Cridland has left
  1433. goffi has left
  1434. moul has left
  1435. blabla has left
  1436. moparisthebest has joined
  1437. Dave Cridland has left
  1438. remko has joined
  1439. Guus has left
  1440. Guus has left
  1441. Ge0rG Most BigCorp have adopted the cloud by now so on premise chat servers are only interesting for medical and military services now
  1442. jjrh They have adopted the cloud but their own cloud
  1443. jjrh and on premise is more "on our vpn"
  1444. SaltyBones has left
  1445. ThibG has joined
  1446. @Alacer has left
  1447. @Alacer has joined
  1448. Dave Cridland has left
  1449. remko has left
  1450. Ge0rG jjrh: not my experience with multiple big customers
  1451. jjrh Interesting. I would have thought there would be legal implications depending on where the server is located and a risk that the SAS company could be compelled to give up your data if they run into issues.
  1452. Syndace has joined
  1453. valo has left
  1454. SamWhited Ge0rG: that's actually what I've found to be true for the most part. At ThreatGRID we couldn't do anything that wasn't a physical on-prem device because we serviced a lot of financial sector people, but at HipChat Server we *only* supported AWS, because basically everyone had their private networks hooked up to Amazon or entirely within Amazon.
  1455. Ge0rG jjrh: that was my initial guess as well, but if you are an international company, you are susceptible to the laws of whoever wants your data anyway
  1456. efrit has left
  1457. SamWhited So outside of finance and military stuff, everyone seemed to be fine with "private clouds"
  1458. Ge0rG "private" networks.
  1459. SamWhited They're private, because if they're not Amazon gets sued for billions of dollars. They have good insentive to make them as private as possible.
  1460. Ge0rG Yeah, seeing an enterprise with 100k+ employees fully embracing O365 made my head spin.
  1461. SamWhited 0365?
  1462. Ge0rG Microsoft Office 365, the cloud offering
  1463. Zash 0 or O
  1464. SamWhited ahh,
  1465. Dave Cridland has left
  1466. SamWhited I assumed you did not mean XEP-0365, or RFC 365, neither of which made sense but both of which I thought of in the context of this chat
  1467. jjrh But isn't the difference here that if you use slack they are running 100% of the show - today they might be on AWS, tomorrow on some other service, but you as a customer really don't have any say regarding that.
  1468. Ge0rG Zash: fix your font
  1469. SamWhited heh, they look completely different in my terminal and I still didn't notice that that was an "O"
  1470. Ge0rG Bummer.
  1471. Zash ОO0ΟΘ
  1472. valo has joined
  1473. Ge0rG Ω
  1474. Tim has joined
  1475. la|r|ma has left
  1476. Dave Cridland has left
  1477. jjrh has left
  1478. Dave Cridland has left
  1479. SamWhited has left
  1480. waqas has left
  1481. jjrh has left
  1482. jjrh has left
  1483. jjrh has left
  1484. nyco has joined
  1485. Dave Cridland has left
  1486. jjrh has left
  1487. jjrh has left
  1488. lumi has joined
  1489. Dave Cridland has left
  1490. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1491. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1492. jjrh has left
  1493. jjrh has left
  1494. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1495. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1496. lskdjf has left
  1497. Alex has joined
  1498. daniel has left
  1499. Alex has left
  1500. lskdjf has left
  1501. Dave Cridland has left
  1502. daniel has left
  1503. Dave Cridland has left
  1504. Dave Cridland has left
  1505. sezuan has left
  1506. daniel has left
  1507. rtq3 has left
  1508. rtq3 has joined
  1509. rtq3 has left
  1510. Steve Kille has joined
  1511. lskdjf has left
  1512. Dave Cridland has left
  1513. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1514. Maranda has left
  1515. Maranda has left
  1516. Maranda has left
  1517. Maranda has left
  1518. Maranda has left
  1519. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1520. Maranda has left
  1521. Maranda has left
  1522. Maranda has left
  1523. Maranda has left
  1524. Maranda has left
  1525. Dave Cridland has left
  1526. Guus has left
  1527. Dave Cridland has left
  1528. Maranda has left
  1529. Dave Cridland has left
  1530. Dave Cridland has left
  1531. j.r has joined
  1532. j.r has joined
  1533. Guus has left
  1534. lskdjf has joined
  1535. UsL has left
  1536. Dave Cridland has left
  1537. Dave Cridland has left
  1538. Dave Cridland has left
  1539. lovetox has left
  1540. Maranda has left
  1541. Dave Cridland has left
  1542. SamWhited has left
  1543. remko has joined
  1544. Dave Cridland has left
  1545. jjrh has left
  1546. Dave Cridland has left
  1547. jjrh has left
  1548. Guus has left