XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-04-18


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  27. SamWhited Do we actually have someone administering xmpp.net? All tests appear to have been failing for the last few minutes and there appear to be random PHP errors showing up on pages.
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  29. SamWhited Hmm, at least one of them started working. Still, seems like something is going on.
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  202. jonasw SamWhited, that PHP error is known-ish and we could use somebody with PHP and docker knowledge to look into it.
  203. jonasw I have both, but I am short on time right now and PHP isn’t anything I do for fun.
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  374. Ge0rG Uh-oh. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16863675 > Zulip 1.8: Free software Slack alternative with email-style threading
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  411. jonasw re GDPR: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/14/whois_icann_gdpr_europe/
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  423. Zash RIP WHOIS
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  425. Ge0rG RIP EU
  426. Ge0rG RIP everything.
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  428. Ge0rG goes farming some potatoes
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  479. MattJ Editors: how is XEP-0380 deferred after 12 months of inactivity, when it says the last update was January this year?
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  483. jonasw on it
  484. jonasw MattJ, that update was the deferral
  485. MattJ Ah :)
  486. MattJ Thanks, makes sense (I guess)
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  492. Zash Sounds confusing
  493. jonasw yeah
  494. jonasw but kinda required for consistency in the attic I think, because attic file names are xep-$number-$version.html
  495. jonasw I dunno
  496. jonasw not sure if we want deferral to be reflected in the attic
  497. jonasw I need to write a few guidelines I have in mind down and run them by the editors for these things.
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  499. Zash Hmmmm
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  772. MattJ Is it fair to say that there is currently no recommended way to format messages in XMPP?
  773. Zash With XHTML-IM killed and two new proposals, yeah, that sounds about right.
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  782. MattJ I'm making a note here... huge success
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  784. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html vs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0394.html ... Fight!
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  788. la|r|ma Zash, I don't think they are in conflict with each other
  789. Zash Technically? No, I suppose not.
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  795. Zash But mindshare and > I have to read *TWO* XEPs just to implement styling? No way, I'll just implement generic inferior protocol instead.
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  798. Zash 0393 needs a big scary warning not to use an off-the-shelf Markdown processor
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  802. SamWhited Zash: I don't think it would work if you tried to use one, it's not actually compatible with markdown, but having a warning couldn't hurt either.
  803. Zash la|r|ma: As for process, both of those are Experimental. Ie not recommended.
  804. SamWhited I'll add one at some point.
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  806. Zash SamWhited: Are you sure? It's exacly like the stuff I feed into pandoc.
  807. Zash s/is/looks/ maybe
  808. la|r|ma the only thing i am missing in 394 is a hide feature, so I can send a star in body for 393 and backwards compat and remove the star in with 394.
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  813. la|r|ma Zash, most markdown processors allow html injection
  814. SamWhited Zash: I'm pretty sure markdown uses * or _ for strong and ** or __ for emphasis (or something similar). We use * for strong and _ for emphasis.
  815. Zash SamWhited: Right. Close tho.
  816. marmistrz has left
  817. Zash > `this tho`
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  819. SamWhited I suppose it's possible someone could use one anyways, not notice that bold/italics was broken, and call it good enough. Either way, a warning seems sane.
  820. Zash la|r|ma: Yes. Which is Very Bad. And why we need to prevent anyone from even thinking about using one.
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  825. Andrew Nenakhov Zash, > With XHTML-IM killed and two new proposals, yeah, that sounds about right. Motivation to kill xhtml is very sloppy.
  826. Zash -xep xhtml-im
  827. Zash bunnnnnnnope
  828. Zash > XHTML-IM (Standards Track, Deprecated, 2018-03-08) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html
  829. ta has joined
  830. Zash Just checking whether it's really been killed already.
  831. Zash Andrew Nenakhov: What do you mean?
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  833. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov, the summary was every client that has ever implemented xhtml-im has implemented it in a way as to have fatal security flaws
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  836. moparisthebest it'd be different if any client ever didn't have fatal security flaws because of implementing it
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  909. Andrew Nenakhov Standard could be reduced to just html, throwing away all css crap that made it hard to implement.
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  911. Andrew Nenakhov Instant messengers don't really need much more than bold, italic and underline text
  912. Zash Isn't HTML massive overkill if you just need bold, italic and underline?
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  915. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov, the css wasn't where the vulnerabilities were, it was just using an html engine that allowed javascript and various other things
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  918. Andrew Nenakhov So standard is bad because html engine allowed JavaScript?
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  920. Andrew Nenakhov That's flawed thinking
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  922. Andrew Nenakhov What if markdown engine will have flaws, you'll deprecate those 393/4 standards too?
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  924. SamWhited We couldn't do that either way because it was in draft. A new spec could still be written to do it that way, but I suspect that the exact same security issues would result.
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  927. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov, I agree on principle it's a dumb reason, but if in practice 100% of implementations are vulnerable, that's a problem
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  943. SamWhited With xhtml IM the easiest way to implement it was vulnerable, so that's what everybody did. Hopefully whatever emerges as,a replacement won't have that problem. It's as simple as that.
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  973. MattJ Sorry for bringing it up, I was just trying to document an objective "today in XMPP, formatting should be done by [...]"
  974. MattJ and realised I didn't quite know what to say
  975. moparisthebest clearly it depends who you ask :)
  976. MattJ I don't have a solution to offer, but we're just obviously not in a good place right now
  977. moparisthebest also, what kind of formatting you want/need
  978. MattJ That's not a good answer :)
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  980. moparisthebest for instant messaging, 393 provides everything everyone has already implemented for decades
  981. moparisthebest clearly it's *good enough*
  982. MattJ poezio didn't show that as bold ^
  983. MattJ or should that be italic?
  984. Zash Nobody uses poezio.
  985. moparisthebest either way you got the point, I actually did it manually out of habit so :/
  986. Seve/SouL Make no sense to alter human text just to make a word bold
  987. Zash Everyone uses Conversations, and it does 393 or something like it.
  988. moparisthebest I think that's what I like so much about 393, whether you implement it or not, it still mostly works
  989. moparisthebest we've been doing this in email/irc/forum posts for years anyway
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  994. Seve/SouL In Microsoft MSN, I think you could select text and select formatting.
  995. Seve/SouL Nothing about typing special characters my mom does not know.
  996. daniel , oO(I've now implemented message expiry about five times. At some point I might as well specify that. All the implementations I've done over the years are compatible with each other anyway. Even though they are of course implemented in systems that don't federate)
  997. moparisthebest daniel, you mean the infamous 'please delete this message kind remote client I have no control over' ?
  998. daniel Yed
  999. daniel 'self destructible messages'
  1000. moparisthebest people do ask for that alot even though it's really naive usually, it'd be worth some interop though
  1001. moparisthebest people clearly don't care that it's a technical impossibility even on proprietary walled gardens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  1004. daniel To be fair it is a relatively decent counter measure to a pretty narrow attack vector.
  1005. daniel It just has a stupid name
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  1007. daniel Like Teslas auto pilot
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  1012. moparisthebest daniel, so, do you negotiate caps with remote clients and only send if they support self destructible messages? or do you just send with a <please-delete-me-after/> tag
  1013. moparisthebest hmm, and carbons and multi-client...
  1014. Zash and archives
  1015. moparisthebest yea I initially assumed you'd add the don't archive tags, but that wouldn't work so well for push and such maybe?
  1016. moparisthebest is it delete after X time even if they haven't seen it? or delete after having read it or something?
  1017. daniel moparisthebest: I think it can only work in homogenous environments. Not necessarily in 'Jabber'. So specifying it would only serve 'proprietary' systems.
  1018. daniel But those use xmpp too
  1019. daniel We do have security labels in xmpp as well even though those only work in homogenous environments as well
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  1024. moparisthebest people seem to want it in conversations too, but it's not even enforceable in proprietary systems unless they also ban cameras and such
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  1026. daniel moparisthebest: the recipient is not the attacker. The police who get their hands on the recipients phone after they have been arrested is
  1027. jjrh This delete this message thing - is like I say delete this, then on my screen and your screen that message no longer shows up and in theory on the server they have deleted it from the database?
  1028. daniel jjrh: this might not matter because just because the police has access to the phone doesn't mean they have access to the server
  1029. daniel Plus you would usually combine this with e2ee
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  1033. moparisthebest fair, that's one less reason for people to say 'xmpp sucks' :P
  1034. jjrh I always thought the use case wasn't for evading the police or the black helicopters but more for telling a friend something and not wanting a easily accessible record of it. Aka telling a friend you cheated on your wife last night, and deleting the message after to avoid accidents like your wife scrolling up your chat, your friend betraying you and showing the message, etc.
  1035. moparisthebest I guess it depends if you are a secret agent or a cheating husband
  1036. moparisthebest or both!
  1037. SamWhited It doesn't really matter what the use case is, it doesn't protect against any of them.
  1038. Zash What's this, thinking about threat models?
  1039. moparisthebest I like to live my life like everyone is out to get me even though no one is remotely interested >:)
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  1043. Zash actual actual reality: nobody cares about your secrets
  1044. moparisthebest except facebook
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  1046. Zash facebook is out to get you !!!! ... to buy stuff
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  1048. Zash or something
  1049. jjrh It's a false sense of security because of course they can take a screenshot, or have clientside logs, etc. But it's not easily visible and it's a way of indicating you told the person this in context or regretted saying it.
  1050. daniel jjrh: again. The attacker is not the recipient
  1051. Zash Social problem. Technical solution?
  1052. daniel It's just a stand in for when the intended recipient is too stupid to use fde et al
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  1054. SamWhited Even in that case I'm not convinced that it's worth the false sense of security it gives people. Regardless of what actual threat model it's intended for, everyone thinks of it in the way jjrh is asying.
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  1056. moparisthebest but they think of it that way in proprietary walled gardens too, when the same things apply
  1057. moparisthebest I said before "people clearly don't care that it's a technical impossibility even on proprietary walled gardens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
  1058. SamWhited They dodn't even know it's a technical impossibility; it's no better or worse in a walled garden than in XMPP. It's just a problem in either place.
  1059. moparisthebest right
  1060. Zash Maybe we should just view this a sa technical half-solution that's actually just a social signal.
  1061. Zash Like locked doors.
  1062. jjrh I just always saw this as avoiding accidents, not someone actually intending to spy. You can't protect someone from taking a screenshot or if it's a appliance taking a picture of the screen
  1063. moparisthebest they only know xmpp sucks because PROPRIETARY_MESSENGER has this feature and xmpp does not
  1064. daniel the question is does it matter? because people will build something like that regardless of *we* think. and my original question was just whether there is some value and having a XEP and library support for that
  1065. Zash If you wanna codify a protocol for saying "please don't share this private message that we exchanged in confidence with anyone else" then why not
  1066. SamWhited daniel: indeed; I think the answer is "no", personally, in fact I think it has negative value. Zash's locked oors analogy is pretty good, except that with a locked door it deters some minor forms of problem, but also people expect that anyone who really wants to get in can smash a window or pick the lock. Here I'm pretty sure most people assume that the locked door is actually going to protect them from all forms of home invasion.
  1067. SamWhited It's a matter of user expectations, and I'm fairly convinced that user expectations are wrong here, so we shouldn't encourage it. But I don't know how to find out if that's correct or not.
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  1069. moparisthebest people (morons) want the feature, it's as useless on xmpp as it is on any other app, they still want it
  1070. SamWhited I know. Sometimes you have to protect the user from themselves, even if they complain a lot. Not always, but I think this is one of those times personally.
  1071. Zash SamWhited: Something something XSF neutrality mumble or something ...
  1072. jjrh Maybe don't call it 'delete' call it 'hide' and flag it as 'don't archive' and the server may or may not respect that.
  1073. SamWhited Zash: Yah, as nice as that sounds in theory I don't think we have the luxury of remaining neutral.
  1074. Zash "Ask receiver to forget this afterwards"
  1075. daniel SamWhited, well usually in that scenario you are not dealing with end users but with customers. and the customer will always get that feature from me (and/or other xmpp developers). it's not my responsibility to protect my customers users
  1076. SamWhited That being said, I like where this is going. I've never seen it done, but maybe it's just a UI issue and it can be solved?
  1077. SamWhited daniel: yah, fair enough, I can't blame you for not saying no to someone who's paying you for it.
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  1080. Zash There's also nothing preventing anyone from just writing stuff down and publishing it under their own namespace.
  1081. moparisthebest 'Ask contact nicely to remove this message after they read it, may or may not happen'
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  1084. daniel > There's also nothing preventing anyone from just writing stuff down and publishing it under their own namespace. of course not. that's what I (and probably others) have been doing
  1085. moparisthebest isn't there a messenger who's entire feature set is just this single feature?
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  1087. daniel but creating a XEP will maybe get you library support and then make our lives easier
  1088. Zash SnapChat?
  1089. moparisthebest I feel like I've seen it before but can't remember
  1090. moparisthebest is it? maybe
  1091. Zash Or well, that's with pictures and stuff
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  1094. SamWhited That was the idea with snapchat originally, wasn't it? I don't know if that's still their main selling point.
  1095. jjrh People defeated that pretty easily, but the point was that the receiver had to make a premeditated effort to do that.
  1096. Zash like with locks
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  1098. jjrh which deterred the majority of people from you know saving pictures they shouldn't and sharing them.
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  1101. jjrh probably a better analogy is a letter - someone can steam it open and read it - but that's a lot of work with many chances to change your mind. If it was a postcard it's something you might do impulsively
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  1103. moparisthebest pretty good
  1104. moparisthebest it also might just get accidentally shredded in a mail sorting machine and exposed to the world too :P
  1105. jjrh It's more: make it impossible for stupid people to do, hard/tedious for malicious people.
  1106. jjrh The hard part with technology is conveying that defeating it is possible. I mean it took a while before people realized that people take screenshots of tweets and that deleting them isn't purging them from the world.
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  1170. Andrew Nenakhov Asking remote server and remote client to kindly delete message is stupid.
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  1173. Andrew Nenakhov What can kinda work in controlled service like Facebook can't be done in federated environment.
  1174. Andrew Nenakhov Kinda work - because messages can be screenshoted, or photographed by another device right from screen like this
  1175. Andrew Nenakhov https://xmpp.redsolution.com/upload/4bddf4f264f5c6577f16551f16a0abdf3f7ff84d/qAjq7PRHPlRmYRReKjx7yJRiOd5ojiPfkzzpvA9c/IMG_20180418_193744633.jpg
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  1178. MattJ What are the two random strings in your upload URL?
  1179. Andrew Nenakhov Something that mod_upload have me, I guess
  1180. MattJ ejabberd?
  1181. Andrew Nenakhov Of course
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  1188. Maranda MattJ, one is the username me thinks.
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  1190. MattJ Aha, you're probably right indeed
  1191. MattJ It's the SHA1 of the bare JID, indeed
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  1199. jjrh In the case of facebook if you use a gateway the deleted messages aren't going to work either it would also be trivial (and someone probably has already) write a browser plugin to archive everything. If this is a feature people want and folks are implementing it in a non standard way I don't see the harm in writing a spec
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  1203. jjrh I can see it being handy in certain situations where you don't really care if it's deleted or archived you just don't want it to be displayed in the client.
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  1223. pep. Reading poezio logs to make the minutes for the gdpr meeting, I see lots of people put whitespace at the end of their messages :P
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  1226. mathieui isn’t that the poezio logger bug that always puts a space at the end of the line?
  1227. Zash Single whitespace or a bunch of spaces and tabs?
  1228. pep. mathieui, no it looks different
  1229. pep. Just a single whitespace
  1230. Zash mobile autocomplete adding it maybe?
  1231. pep. mathieui, now that you say it, I also see this bug
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  1233. pep. Ah, well, actually, most of it _is_ the bug.
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  1273. moparisthebest obligatory link on why that's useless https://www.moparisthebest.com/phonehash/#80808080ccdd107488bad45a74b3c5755c4bd108
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  1275. moparisthebest although, JID search space is certainly much larger than phone number search space so
  1276. moparisthebest *slightly* better than useless maybe
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  1280. Zash Dat subset space of sane usernames one can actually type and remember tho
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  1284. Anu So regarding gdpr, it seems Whois is dead
  1285. Anu https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/14/whois_icann_gdpr_europe/
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  1287. Anu Interesting the fact that you can’t make a tos that will eliminate gdpr restrictions essentially kills Whois
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  1289. Holger moparisthebest: What's useless?
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  1293. moparisthebest Holger, sha1 hash of jid to 'hide' jid
  1294. Holger moparisthebest: In the upload URL? The goal wasn't hiding a JID.
  1295. moparisthebest what's the goal?
  1296. Ge0rG increase the length of the URL to annoy text-mode client users.
  1297. moparisthebest then clearly you should be using sha512
  1298. Zash s/to annoy .*/ to annoy Ge0rG in particular/
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  1300. Ge0rG Zash: goal accomplished
  1301. Holger moparisthebest: Initially my goal was backwards compat with daniel's initial upload component, and I liked how this would avoid any issues with weird characters or overlong JIDs or whatever without me having to think about it.
  1302. Holger (But the format is somewhat configurable.)
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  1304. Zash I just went with /uuid/original filename
  1305. Ge0rG Zash: ^ to anny Ge0rG.
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  1308. Zash Ge0rG: Shush you, they are more compact now.
  1309. Holger Zash: I wanted per-user quotas, and I didn't want to keep track of who uploaded what.
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  1311. Holger (That's what God created directories for!)
  1312. Ge0rG what about hmac(userjid) then
  1313. moparisthebest Holger, but you could mix a random server-side salt in there and accomplish the same thing
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  1315. Holger If I had a different goal then I could do that, yes :-)
  1316. Zash Holger: I'm sure someone would come up with some requirement that breaks that too.
  1317. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the salt needs to be stored then
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  1319. moparisthebest just on the server doing the hashing Ge0rG yes
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  1321. Holger "just"
  1322. moparisthebest that would let you do per-user quotas with only directories, server would know who uploaded what, and no one else could reverse the hash
  1323. Ge0rG moparisthebest: what if it's a cluster.
  1324. Holger There might be multiple nodes involved.
  1325. Holger Right.
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  1327. moparisthebest ok, then just on each node :)
  1328. Ge0rG is the salt sensitive information according to GDPR?
  1329. moparisthebest the nodes do share some type of database or configuration right?
  1330. Ge0rG Holger: just store the salt as a docker secret.
  1331. Holger moparisthebest: Sure.
  1332. moparisthebest the salt has nothing to do with GDPR
  1333. Holger Ge0rG: I'm convinced!
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  1335. Ge0rG moparisthebest: technically it's not a salt but a pepper anyway.
  1336. moparisthebest actually it could still be per-server, no reason they have to share it
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  1338. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the right question to ask Holger would be how the nodes are going to synchronize quota usage.
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  1340. moparisthebest right, that's why they don't need to share the salt, each would have to calculate total usage themselves anyway :)
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  1348. Holger There's no clustering support in the current module for the stored data (so you'd solve this outside ejabberd or use just a single node for this), but any node in the cluster may generate the upload URLs.
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