Friday, April 20, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:30:52] <ralphm> Hmm, just noticed that Conversations doesn't (also) send XEP-0080 payload when sharing location.
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[07:39:35] <daniel> ralphm: is there any client that will do something reasonable if I just stick a geoloc element in the message (w/o the pubsub overhead)?
[07:39:44] <daniel> Assuming that this is what you are talking about
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[08:30:02] <ralphm> I'm not sure, to be honest, but it is something I'm suggesting being implemented in what we are doing.
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[12:50:46] <lovetox> are these not 2 different use cases
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[12:51:36] <lovetox> i always thought xep 80 is more of a, contantly sharing your location all the time
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[12:52:05] <lovetox> conversations just shares the location at one point in time with a geo uri or not?
[12:52:15] <jonasw> mmm, I know of a protocol which suggested inclusion of XEP-0080 payload into messages. Ge0rG?
[12:52:19] <jonasw> (it’ll haunt you forever!)
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[12:52:32] <lovetox> either way gajim supports xep 80 🙂
[12:52:48] <MattJ> lovetox, the XEP provides two parts: the data format (<geoloc>), and a recommended transport (PEP)
[12:53:14] <MattJ> The point is, any time you need to encode location in XMPP, the same data format/code can be reused without inventing something new
[12:53:24] <lovetox> ah i see
[12:53:32] <lovetox> so you want to use the geoloc element with another transport
[12:53:35] <jonasw> extensible XML is extensible
[12:53:36] <lovetox> in this case a message
[12:53:46] <MattJ> So yeah, if you want to send a specific location once over XMPP, but don't want to publish it to all your contacts, I think including it directly in a message is quite sensible
[12:54:28] <Zash> So, the thing, it's just sending <body>geo:x,y</body> right?
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[12:55:29] <lovetox> yeah and this is useable by the user even if the client doesnt support locations
[12:55:44] <lovetox> i think firefox even supports this uri scheme
[12:56:24] <Zash> geo:0,0
[12:56:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no!
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[12:57:10] <Ge0rG> jonasw: or I'll PR xmpp-echo-bot into xmpp.org/clients!
[12:57:11] <MattJ> Right, so like OOB (which is similar - it defines a data format as well as different ways of using it, iq vs. message), the <body> may be used only as a fallback
[12:57:35] <Zash> Having a graceful fallback in <body> is sane.
[12:57:39] <Zash> Having *only* the body is meh.
[12:57:42] <MattJ> However like OOB, we have the problem where it's not known if the <body> is just a fallback, or also includes some information to which the data payload is an addition
[12:58:37] <MattJ> e.g. <body>Don't come to this place, here be dragons</body><geoloc>...</geoloc>
[12:59:12] <MattJ> Client sees <geoloc> and says "I know this! They sent a location, so I'll show that instead of the <body>..."
[12:59:17] <Zash> There used to be thing magical awesome feature negotiation, but we've killed that, thanks to Carbons and MAM
[12:59:35] <MattJ> Zash, that never worked with offline messages either
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[13:00:10] <lovetox> MattJ we can decide
[13:00:25] <lovetox> the dataformat has a description attr
[13:00:55] <MattJ> Right, that's currently a problem I have with OOB
[13:01:17] <lovetox> so if we have description ignore body
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[13:01:36] <MattJ> That means I can't use OOB like an "attachment" feature
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[13:03:03] <MattJ> <body>Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier</body><oob><desc>Word document</desc>...</oob>
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[13:03:55] <daniel> Fwiw Conversations will only use the oob tag if it's either the same as the body or if the body doesn't exists
[13:04:01] <MattJ> I can think of a protcol solution, not sure whether it's actually a good idea or not
[13:04:21] <daniel> I'm not defending oob as the best thing ever invented
[13:04:36] <MattJ> <hide-body-if-you-understand>jabber:x:oob</hide-body-if-you-understand>
[13:04:41] <daniel> But the word document situation wouldn't happen
[13:05:01] <Zash> > Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier

Where, I don't see it?
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[13:05:17] <MattJ> Zash, fair point :)
[13:05:30] <Zash> Nice things be unavailable.
[13:05:48] <MattJ> So for backward compatibility, we have to always use <body> as a fallback
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[13:06:17] <MattJ> so <desc> suddenly makes sense as a non-fallback piece of text
[13:06:32] <lovetox> yes if desc is there hide body
[13:06:35] <Zash> If only anyone actually used taht
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[13:07:38] <Zash> I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today:

body := $desc \n $uri
oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc }
[13:07:55] <MattJ> Zash, yes, pretty much what I'm proposing
[13:09:28] <MattJ> The current Conversations logic makes sense, to defend against any clients which may be treating <body> *not* as a fallback
[13:09:50] <MattJ> But I'm not sure whether any clients actually do that today
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[13:10:33] <MattJ> So we just need to document that oob always overrides body, and the accompanying text, if any, is in <desc>
[13:10:42] <daniel> > I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today:
> body := $desc \n $uri
> oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc }
I can live with that.
[13:10:54] <daniel> For now it won't break Conversations.
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[13:11:04] <daniel> And in the future I might implement support
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[13:11:07] <MattJ> daniel, iirc you said the text wouldn't be displayed in any case?
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[13:11:28] <MattJ> Oh right, it would ignore the oob for now
[13:11:30] <daniel> Well by not break I mean Conversations would display the fallback
[13:11:35] <MattJ> Got it
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[13:11:54] <Ge0rG> it would break inline image display ;)
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[13:12:31] <MattJ> Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :)
[13:12:59] <Kev> Does 66 have anything over SIMS?
[13:13:02] <MattJ> But even the example there is using it in an attachment-style
[13:13:21] <MattJ> Kev, yes, things support it already :)
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[13:13:54] <Zash> Small, simple, self-contained.
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[13:15:24] <MattJ> I think it's simple because it's always just a URL
[13:15:46] <MattJ> SIMS suddenly pulls in Jingle
[13:16:25] <MattJ> and that's quite a commitment for a client that simply wants to display an image
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[13:17:01] <Kev> SIMS doesn't need to be Jingle though, does it? It can just do URLs?
[13:17:07] <Kev> Or I've completely misunderstood.
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[13:17:26] <Zash> But why would you if you're just sending URLs anyways?
[13:17:35] <Zash> (SIMS has more things that are useful tho)
[13:17:37] <Kev> Because you usually want metadata with it.
[13:18:01] <MattJ> Kev, "a client supporting this XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2] and HTTP File Upload (XEP-0363) [4]."
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[13:18:56] <MattJ> which is weird, because even to just receive and display images from others, I MUST implement a XEP related to uploading?
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[13:20:03] <Kev> Yeah, either it's useful just for fetching stuff, in which case it shouldn't have that, or we should move all the metadata stuff into references itself.
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[13:20:36] <Zash> Maybe separate requirements for sending and receiving?
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[13:20:52] <MattJ> and rather than forcing client to implement Jingle, there should be a fallback as we have with the OOB solution
[13:21:07] <MattJ> So I think that answers why OOB > SIMS right now (but may not always be)
[13:21:42] <Ge0rG> all the refererence / link XEPs suck in different ways.
[13:21:50] <MattJ> The sad truth is, anybody can click a URL, but you can't count on all of a user's clients supporting Jingle
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[13:22:23] <Kev> Are you interested in just a clickable URL though?
[13:22:26] <MattJ> (I don't think any of mine do, and one is a console client that I use via ssh... what is it supposed to do with a Jingle reference?)
[13:23:05] <MattJ> No, I'm saying that a clickable URL is the common fallback that works absolutely everywhere
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[13:24:48] <lovetox> xep 80 links to a invalid site
[13:24:50] <lovetox> https://xmpp.org/extensions/gps_datum.html
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[13:25:12] <Andrew Nenakhov> > Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :)

Btw I don't see why would anyone use 066 over 221 for inline image display
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[13:26:30] <MattJ> Heh
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[13:52:34] <daniel> by the way if any server operators are interested in having their uptime tracked you can add your own server with this form: https://status.conversations.im/add/
[13:52:57] <daniel> you can of course also just self host the thing. but apparantly some people don't want to
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[13:56:00] <jonasw> GDPR meeting in 5? pep., Ge0rG, winfried
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[13:56:19] <pep.> oh right
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[13:59:22] <Ge0rG> 🤦
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[14:00:08] <winfried> Give me one minute
[14:00:28] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why?
[14:00:38] <Zash> > 15:56:00 jonasw> GDPR meeting in 5?
You have until 16:01
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[14:00:59] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it was just an ACK of my presence
[14:01:13] <jonasw> weird way to ack
[14:01:47] <pep.> !
[14:02:06] <pep.> I got beverage and snack, all the good stuff
[14:02:15] <Ge0rG> 🙋
[14:02:19] <Maranda> Ge0rG's famous ack
[14:02:19] <Ge0rG> better now?
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[14:02:44] <Maranda> Well I imagine a headdesk would be stranger for a ACK
[14:02:44] <jonasw> Ge0rG, yes
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[14:04:59] *winfried acks his presence
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[14:05:32] <pep.> !
[14:05:42] <Ge0rG> Are we there yet?
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[14:06:12] <jonasw> .
[14:06:20] <winfried> all present
[14:06:33] *winfried *bangs* the gavel
[14:06:45] <winfried> pep.: thanks for your logs!
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[14:07:32] <pep.> I was a bit lost with the two last meetings, not sure in what category to put what we talked about
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[14:07:48] <winfried> we have to do the spamdetection and can then move on to the consequences
[14:07:59] <jonasw> I’d like to insert a point: do we want to send a posting to the gdpr list set up by the debian folks?
[14:08:09] <winfried> pep.: When I have a bit time to spare, I wil check
[14:08:11] <pep.> yes I would like to
[14:08:13] <Ge0rG> jonasw: 👍
[14:08:16] <pep.> jonasw, can do
[14:08:24] <winfried> good plan
[14:08:31] <Ge0rG> tiden up the wiki a bit after this meeting and send it out?
[14:08:42] <pep.> Ok
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[14:08:58] <winfried> that is that earth.li list?
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[14:09:24] <winfried> Ge0rG: good plan, maybe add a summary so far?
[14:09:26] <pep.> yes
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[14:09:32] <pep.> winfried, boarf
[14:09:38] <winfried> LOL
[14:09:43] <pep.> It's still a wip
[14:09:48] <winfried> it is
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[14:10:05] <winfried> do we need any reflection on the process before diving into it?
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[14:11:15] <winfried> I guess not... ;-)
[14:12:24] <winfried> last point of 1.1d before diving into 1.1e: spam detection. What are we doing there and is that justified
[14:12:59] <pep.> If we want to provide a proper service to other users of the network I guess we have to yes
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[14:13:41] <Ge0rG> winfried: what I am doing: automatic analysis of all messages for matching one of two sets of certain (super secret) criteria.
[14:13:42] <winfried> pep.: I was referring to legal grounds for processing, but you are right, that doesn't justify it
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[14:14:00] <Ge0rG> messages that match criterion 1: manual analysis of body text (this might be really evil, dunno)
[14:14:10] <Ge0rG> messages that match criterion 2: automatic blocking of the sender JID forever.
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[14:14:38] <pep.> hmm, wouldn't any manual analysis directly fall under 9.1?
[14:14:41] <winfried> Ge0rG: fixed criteria or self-learning/statistical ones?
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[14:14:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, all of that falls apart once spammers start to OMEMO things, right?
[14:15:02] <jonasw> or at least the body text analysis
[14:15:09] <Ge0rG> winfried: fixed criteria. The manual analysis is only used to improve the criteria-2 list
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[14:15:26] <pep.> Ah, you're talking about non-bayes analysis or similar I guess
[14:15:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes. I'm eagerly awaiting that day so I can start blocking OMEMO
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[14:15:52] *winfried has a head crunching regulations and articles
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[14:16:09] <Ge0rG> *crunch*
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[14:16:21] <pep.> hmm, the e2ee thing seems annoying yeah
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[14:16:46] <winfried> pep.: e2ee is a security risk!
[14:16:50] <pep.> :)
[14:16:55] <pep.> Ge0rG, I'd say that's a bit involved for spammers no?
[14:16:57] <jonasw> manually reading the body seems fairly evil though
[14:16:59] <pep.> Anyway..
[14:17:05] <winfried> lets brainstorm a bit
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[14:17:05] <pep.> jonasw, agreed
[14:17:15] <moparisthebest> it's ok, the spammers aren't going to sue him for it
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[14:17:25] <winfried> abuse detection/prevention is a ground for processing
[14:17:26] <pep.> moparisthebest, might not be spammers he's reading messages of
[14:17:27] <daniel> I think the target audience of their spam hates omemo and uses pidgin or other crappy messengers. So I honestly wouldn't expect them to start using omemo any time soon
[14:17:33] <jonasw> winfried, in any case: spam filtering is currently not standardised and I’m not sure if we need to cover it within the XSF
[14:17:40] <winfried> as long as it proportionate
[14:18:01] <jonasw> at least not at this point in time
[14:18:18] <winfried> so reading every message is not proportionate, reading messages already marked as spam is
[14:18:29] <pep.> winfried, is it?
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[14:18:42] <pep.> is it written in your bible
[14:18:43] <jonasw> winfried, depends on how you mark as spam
[14:18:45] <moparisthebest> point is, no one could tell if you did or not, so it's legal!
[14:18:55] <pep.> moparisthebest, shush
[14:18:59] <jonasw> if you learn on spam based on viagra and penis enlargement, your spam detection could easily trip off at 9.1-relveant non-spam content.
[14:19:06] <moparisthebest> what this: Ge0rG, do you ever manually read messages? (answer no)
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[14:19:10] <winfried> pep.: well, that is one of the things I was doubting about
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[14:19:37] <winfried> but here in the netherlands 'escalating fraud prevention' is accepted right now
[14:19:43] <pep.> jonasw, your spam filter could also be "true"
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[14:19:48] <winfried> (though a bit controversial)
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[14:20:26] <winfried> pep., jonasw very true
[14:20:44] <jonasw> I motion that we skip spam detection of any kind for now, because of lack of standardisation. Just leave a note that any type of body analysis might go into 9.1 realm.
[14:20:57] <winfried> in the escalating things, metadata is the first step, then automated detection then manual analysis
[14:21:15] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: yes I do.
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[14:22:26] <winfried> moparisthebest: it is justifyable if it is proportionate and if it can't be done in an other way
[14:22:39] <moparisthebest> oops, you messed up Ge0rG :P
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[14:23:33] <winfried> jonasw: I think we need to give some warnings about it, but we can't fully handle it indeed
[14:24:14] <winfried> so +1 to the motion of jonasw
[14:24:33] <pep.> how the hell does google justify that
[14:24:53] <pep.> yeah I also want to leave this aside for now
[14:25:25] <winfried> pep.: Google just lets you sign that they own your soul and your communications
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[14:25:57] <winfried> Ge0rG: ?
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[14:28:28] <winfried> is it me, or did everybody leave for a friday afternoon beer on a terrace?
[14:28:53] <Zash> Good idea!
[14:29:16] <pep.> I was also planning something similar
[14:29:27] <pep.> it's sunny in the England, joy!
[14:29:32] <pep.> it's sunny in England, joy!
[14:29:34] <Ge0rG> winfried: what was your question, sorry?
[14:29:39] <Zash> It was sunny here yesterday.
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[14:29:44] <Zash> Now it's grey meh.
[14:29:49] <moparisthebest> kinda on topic: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/30509/how-are-gdpr-fines-actually-enforced-for-us-companies-with-no-physical-presence
[14:30:03] <winfried> do you ack leaving spam detection with a note about possible problems with it?
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[14:30:18] <moparisthebest> "The GDPR requires non-EU entities handling EU data to appoint a representative in the EU, and this representative will be able receive the fines or other penalties relating to regulation compliance." ;; haha EU lawmakers really are insane aren't they?
[14:30:21] <Ge0rG> winfried: yes, ack
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[14:30:32] <winfried> Q1.1e!
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[14:31:00] <pep.> winfried, what do you want to put in 1.1e?
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[14:31:18] <Ge0rG> pep.: I'd say specific action items for people involved (i.e. server operators)
[14:31:21] <pep.> State what fine if you don't do x or y?
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[14:31:49] <winfried> up to now we found several limits, things to consider regarding the processing we are doing
[14:31:53] <pep.> istr winfried also talking about drafting a policy or sth
[14:31:56] <Ge0rG> pep.: the fines aren't clear yet. The maximum fines are well-defined, but there are zero rulings yet
[14:32:48] <winfried> I think we should no look at what we must do to fix those issues
[14:33:13] <Ge0rG> winfried: {not,now}?
[14:33:13] <winfried> like s2s to a server that is violating privacy
[14:33:22] <winfried> now
[14:33:45] <pep.> winfried, I guess you can blacklist once you become aware
[14:34:02] <Ge0rG> but how do you become aware?
[14:34:07] <winfried> shall we first make a list of issues to consider?
[14:34:11] <Ge0rG> I don't think it's useful in any way to block s2s
[14:34:12] <pep.> Ge0rG, that'S the trick
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[14:34:32] <Ge0rG> We need to ensure that the users are informed about the possibility of their data leaving the EU
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[14:36:07] <winfried> OK, I opened pandora's box of s2s
[14:36:22] <winfried> lets empty it...
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[14:36:52] <winfried> issue a: can it be justified?
[14:37:02] <winfried> (to do s2s)
[14:37:02] <pep.> what can?
[14:37:16] <pep.> ah, we said article 6 and 49.1b
[14:37:28] <pep.> 6.1b and 49.1b ?
[14:38:01] <winfried> pep.: exactly, but that assumes no more processing then is needed for the task
[14:38:20] <pep.> We can also ask for consent with 6.1a and 49.1a iirc
[14:38:21] <winfried> so how do we assure there is no more processing then needed for the task?
[14:38:48] <pep.> For the part that's not covered by implicit consent
[14:39:10] <winfried> pep.: yes
[14:39:26] <winfried> but how do we know we need extra consent?
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[14:39:51] <pep.> all we haven't covered in 1.1c/d I would say?
[14:39:53] <winfried> I guess we can't enforce this by technical means, it is a legal issue
[14:40:00] <moparisthebest> does an incoming message to your user make it your user's message? in which case you already have their consent?
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[14:40:09] <winfried> moparisthebest: no
[14:40:21] <moparisthebest> why not?
[14:40:33] <pep.> winfried, did we not say yes to this question?
[14:40:34] <winfried> moparisthebest: it still contains pii from the sender
[14:40:50] <pep.> right, assuming no further analysis of the message
[14:40:51] <moparisthebest> that they willingly sent to your user, put completely under your user's control?
[14:41:03] <moparisthebest> which they granted consent to you for, maybe?
[14:41:19] <winfried> pep.: on storage (MAM) of the conversation not on the processing (relaying) the message
[14:42:26] <winfried> moparisthebest: by willingly sending it to a user, the sender agrees to the processing of sending the message, the receiver is no part of that
[14:43:13] <moparisthebest> does anyone actually know that are is everyone just guessing until it's tested in court?
[14:43:14] <pep.> hmm
[14:43:32] <MattJ> moparisthebest, nobody knows
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[14:43:56] <winfried> moparisthebest: there are some wp29 guidelines, they have a legal status
[14:43:57] <moparisthebest> I'd think they'd all be equally arguable in court
[14:44:00] <jonasw> winfried, didn’t we establish last time the opposite of that?
[14:44:10] <jonasw> like, received message == recipients content => covered by recipients consent.
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[14:44:27] <winfried> jonasw: hmmm... refresh my mind (it has a friday explosion)
[14:44:52] <moparisthebest> again, what are the email providers doing? that's really all we need to know, numerous email providers are far bigger and have far more money than the entire XMPP network
[14:44:57] <jonasw> winfried, I’m semi-afk myself, but I think we figured that due to the fact that the recipients server has consent from the recipient for processing, it’s fine because the sender gave the recipient the data.
[14:45:04] <jonasw> moparisthebest, nobody knows!
[14:45:05] <winfried> jonasw: I thought that was only in the context of MAM at the receiver server
[14:45:14] <jonasw> moparisthebest, they won’t tell you because it threatens them legally
[14:45:15] <pep.> moparisthebest, https://www.earth.li/pipermail/gdpr-discuss/2018-April/000013.html a quite I liked in there, "Of course, anyone's reading might contrast quite a bit from how lawyers will over time engineer courts into interpreting it"
[14:45:20] <jonasw> winfried, okay, what are we talking about if not about MAM?
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[14:45:31] <moparisthebest> jonasw, than that's what we should find out rather than trying to make up stuff on our own?
[14:45:56] <winfried> jonasw: relaying the message, logging it, spam filtering it
[14:46:23] <jonasw> moparisthebest, except that they won’t tell us
[14:46:28] <winfried> using it for profiling for targeted advertisement
[14:46:28] <jonasw> because it threatens them legally to do so, I guess
[14:46:56] <pep.> moparisthebest, also business opportunities, so insentive not to reveal how they do it
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[14:48:33] <jonasw> that, too
[14:48:45] <jonasw> but I guess they’re more afraid of them actually not being compliant
[14:48:52] <pep.> possibly
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[14:49:13] <moparisthebest> but there are plenty of more open ones that would too?
[14:49:19] <moparisthebest> presumably
[14:49:20] <winfried> moparisthebest: there are many things unclear on the gdpr, but many thing things *are*, we can anticipate on that
[14:49:28] <jonasw> hm, we could ask posteo
[14:50:24] <winfried> moparisthebest: and many companies try to ignore the obvious, for example because it doesn't fit in their business model
[14:50:25] <moparisthebest> it's not great but, seems like good odds an email provider will be targetted way before any xmpp provider, could just wait and see...
[14:50:52] <pep.> moparisthebest, not sure that's a good option
[14:51:25] <moparisthebest> the other option is for non-lawyers to try to interpret lawyer-speak, and guess what a lawyer and judge will decide
[14:51:28] <pep.> So.. we didn't get really far today
[14:51:29] <moparisthebest> also, not a good option
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[14:52:08] <winfried> moparisthebest: I don't want to tell my customers "we are neatly ignoring the law, because we hope somebody else gets caught first"
[14:52:29] <moparisthebest> whether you try really hard to comply or not, that's still essentially the position you are in
[14:52:40] <winfried> pep.: yes, I am a bit frustrated too...
[14:52:57] <pep.> moparisthebest, if this doesn't interest you, fine
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[14:53:32] <winfried> moparisthebest: it is not that black-white, many things *are* clear
[14:53:34] <jonasw> sorry, I was more distracted than I expected during this timeslot :/
[14:53:41] <moparisthebest> don't get me wrong you guys are doing good work and finding the baseline of generally what looks to be compliant
[14:53:56] <moparisthebest> but none of you are lawyers, and even if you were, they can be wrong too
[14:54:11] <moparisthebest> it's a terrible situation, I'm just glad I'm not in the EU
[14:54:12] <pep.> moparisthebest, yes everybody can be wrong and we'll see on the first court cases
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[14:54:22] <pep.> In the meantime, we kind of have to do something about it anyway
[14:54:32] <Holger> That's true for basically any law that applies to whatever you do.
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[14:54:36] <pep.> yes
[14:54:46] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: the good thing is that if you show to the court that you clearly did your best to follow the rules, your probability of ending up in jail sinks
[14:55:14] <MattJ> Obligatory link to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 if you haven't read it, on the subject of law and computing
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[14:55:18] <moparisthebest> my only concern pep. is you overanalyze something and end up crippling federation or something that is useful
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[14:56:00] <pep.> moparisthebest, we're only giving guidelines, and we welcome anybody to give input, or even bring lawyers to the dicussion if possible
[14:56:27] <pep.> moparisthebest, also as Ge0rG said
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[14:56:44] <moparisthebest> yea but if the guidelines end up being 'disable federation except on an opt-in manual basis' that ruins everything
[14:56:54] <SamWhited> FYI, there's a bit of XMPP discussion in this Google Allo/SMS thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882539
[14:56:55] <winfried> moparisthebest: I think we are in matter of fact analyzing how far we can go with federation without running into big problems
[14:56:58] <pep.> that is not where we're headed no
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[14:58:25] <pep.> Shall we plan next
[14:59:09] <winfried> yes... I will try to make a analysis/summary of the discussion so far and the issues to tackle before it
[14:59:14] <pep.> I can't do Wed and (Fri morning)
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[14:59:37] <pep.> Tue 12:30 CEST as before?
[14:59:45] <jonasw> pep., that would work for me
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[15:00:05] <winfried> Tue I am stuck
[15:00:06] <pep.> winfried, yes that'd be nice to know where we're at
[15:00:13] <pep.> Mon maybe?
[15:00:21] <winfried> mon wfm
[15:00:34] <pep.> Mon 1230 CEST
[15:00:52] <winfried> wfm
[15:00:57] <pep.> jonasw, Ge0rG
[15:01:03] <jonasw> pep., can do
[15:02:06] <Ge0rG> Mon and Tue should both work
[15:02:15] <pep.> Ok!
[15:02:22] <pep.> Mon 1230 CEST it is
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[15:02:26] <pep.> *bang*
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[15:02:35] <Ge0rG> pep.: thanks for chairing! ;)
[15:02:39] <pep.> haha
[15:02:48] <Ge0rG> thanks to winfried too, obviously
[15:03:00] <Ge0rG> Sorry I was semi-AFK, had two important and unscheduled customer calls :(
[15:03:15] *winfried is searching the gavel
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[15:03:49] <winfried> Ge0rG: I noticed something like that already, can happen
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[15:04:15] <jonasw> thanks all
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[15:11:00] <pep.> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882862 "an entirely over-the-top service that everyone could use, on any platform, without the consent, extra billing or buggy implementation of their carrier.", I guess they're missing the point, you still get the consent (in their meaning of the word) of WhatsApp to send your messages.
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[15:25:18] <moparisthebest> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/help ha lawyers eyeing GDPR stuff
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[15:25:59] <lovetox> The Last Call ends on 2017-12-12
[15:26:05] <lovetox> says xep 363
[15:26:21] <lovetox> so 4 months later what happens now?
[15:28:48] <MattJ> I last see an email from Dave Cridland saying: "Re-reading this and other feedback, I'm going to push back on moving this to Draft until substantial improvements are done to Security Considerations in particular, and normative language use in general."
[15:29:16] <MattJ> There has been an update to the XEP since then however
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[15:30:54] <SamWhited> It might be time for the editors to reissue the LC on that
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[15:32:59] <daniel> I'll do one tiny update. Give me second
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[15:34:11] <lovetox> does the xsf have tool to track these things?
[15:34:31] <lovetox> there are probably 100 xeps in different states that have deadlines
[15:35:15] <lovetox> my observation is that these dates are not actually tracked, so the deadlines mean nothing
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[15:36:27] <lovetox> i dont know what the correct process is, but a xep where the LC ended and it was voted to not advance, should be moved back to experimental or something
[15:36:38] <jonasw> lovetox, seems legit
[15:36:41] <jonasw> editor’s bsy though
[15:36:45] <lovetox> and not kept in this LC ended, but we have to search the mailinglist what actually happend -state
[15:36:50] <Kev> As with all things, feel free to help do something about it :)
[15:37:31] <lovetox> i just did, its not meant as whining, i deal with this at work everyday, i asked if you have a tool to track these deadlines?
[15:37:57] <Kev> Not beyond basic things like popping it in Trello (unless jonasw tells me we've got something better I'm not aware of).
[15:38:28] <Kev> We could, in principle, scrape the dates out of the XEPs automatically, but I don't believe we have anything currently to do that.
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[15:39:33] <Zash> `grep`
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[15:41:02] <lovetox> is there any automatic state changes happening?
[15:41:26] <lovetox> like triggered by something, and executed by the server without the editor doing something?
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[15:42:14] <lovetox> or does every state change need a manual triggering by the editor?
[15:42:15] <Kev> State changes are all manual (which is right, I think).
[15:42:34] <Kev> Sending emails is also manual, which isn't right - that bit's nearly automated but not quite finished.
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[15:43:48] <lovetox> so if every state change is manual, then a simple excel (or whatever you use on linux) list with the 400 xeps and there current status would be sufficient
[15:43:58] <lovetox> if its on the server and everyone has access to
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[15:44:21] <lovetox> before council meeting, look at the list, filter state X look at deadline, and bring to vote
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[15:45:13] <lovetox> its not really elaborate solution, but i think thats sufficient for the task
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[15:45:59] <MattJ> I don't think the spreadsheet part is even necessary
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[15:46:21] <Kev> I don't think that helps in this particular case, though, which was that it was blocked pending changes, and either the changes didn't happen, or it wasn't clear that they had.
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[15:47:01] <lovetox> the problem is, nobody looked if they happend
[15:47:07] <lovetox> because it was not on the agenda anymore
[15:47:16] <lovetox> which it would have been if there was a list with all LC xeps
[15:47:31] <lovetox> because then it would be easy to look at all LC every council meeting
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[15:48:01] <lovetox> and im not sure what you mean by "blocked"
[15:48:11] <lovetox> if LC ended, and you block it, then it cant be in LC anymore
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[15:49:39] <lovetox> or maybe thats the problem, that its not usual to set the xep back to experimantal
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[15:50:41] <MattJ> I feel almost like we need some tests for the xeps repo to highlight inconsistencies
[15:50:43] <Zash> `xeps$ xpath -e /xep/header/lastcall xep-0???.xml`
[15:51:13] <Kev> lovetox: Because it shouldn't go back to Experimental really. According to our process it should be rejected.
[15:51:19] <Kev> Which is obviously not right.
[15:51:37] <Kev> So just leaving it in Proposed is what tends to happen.
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[15:53:09] <lovetox> your process gives you only Accepted or Rejected
[15:53:13] <lovetox> ?
[15:53:19] <lovetox> after a LC
[15:53:51] <lovetox> this seems not good, maybe add that it can be set back to experimental if the xep in gerneral is useful, but lacks some things
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[15:58:12] <Dave Cridland> Yeah, we should allow popping things back to Experimental.
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[15:58:51] <Dave Cridland> Although possibly the right thing to do is pop them into Rejected, but allow Rejected XEPs to be pulled back to Experimental, like Deferred ones.
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[15:59:37] <Dave Cridland> (The difference being that if Council has rejected it, and nobody does anythign further, it should probably stay rejected and not automatically go back to Experimental)
[15:59:53] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: that sounds like the perfect recipe for offending authors.
[16:00:02] <Kev> I'm not sure that's true (Dave)
[16:00:15] <Kev> It seems that an abandoned LC XEP is much like an abandoned Experimental XEP.
[16:00:27] <Dave Cridland> Kev, So Deferred?
[16:00:31] <Kev> And letting them both be Experimental at the time of last action, and defer naturally seems sane to me.
[16:00:59] <ralphm> Are we talking about the Proposed state?
[16:01:00] <Ge0rG> Deferred sounds better
[16:01:33] <Kev> ralphm: Yes.
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[16:01:49] <lovetox> you dont want to set it to a state where devs are scared to implement it, only because one council member thought some minor thing has to be adjusted
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[16:01:58] <Kev> So an E with 5 months before Def goes to LC, gets -1, it then goes back to E for another 5 until it goes Def.
[16:02:01] <lovetox> so Rejected sounds bad
[16:02:02] <Kev> Or something.
[16:02:11] <Kev> lovetox: Indeed.
[16:02:27] <lovetox> Yes Kev your proposal sounds sane
[16:02:45] <ralphm> Rejected would be the appropriate state if the author is unwilling to change it based on said council members' comments.
[16:03:05] <Kev> ralphm: I don't think so based purely on that criterion.
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[16:03:17] <ralphm> I am ok with an edge Rejected->Experimental
[16:03:20] <lovetox> yes of course, the case we talk currently is, nobody had time to look at things, or forgot but the xep is a good xep 🙂
[16:03:21] <Kev> Because if it's a worthwhile XEP with an intransigent author, the right thing is to assign a new author.
[16:03:36] <Kev> Not to kill the XEP.
[16:03:54] <ralphm> Kev: allowing Rejected->Experimental would enable just that, no?
[16:04:03] <Kev> ralphm: Pointlessly, IMHO.
[16:04:24] <lovetox> Rejected should be an end state
[16:04:28] <lovetox> in my opinion
[16:04:30] <Kev> I think allowing LC to end in any of Draft, Rejected, Experimental would be good to me.
[16:04:31] <ralphm> Somebody wants to pick up the Rejected XEP, does the work, suggests going back to Experimental.
[16:04:39] <Kev> And leaving it to Council to decide which.
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[16:04:49] <ralphm> Sure
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[16:05:02] <lovetox> so in this case now with httpupload
[16:05:08] <ralphm> But then you have to define how a vote in Council causes which transition
[16:05:16] <lovetox> i message the editor, saying LC has ended, no changes on the xep
[16:05:34] <lovetox> then he has to set it to rejected
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[16:05:44] <lovetox> 10 minutes later daniel messages: oh i make the change i forgot
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[16:05:54] <lovetox> then he has to put it again into experimental..
[16:06:30] <ralphm> lovetox: in the current process, only Council can make it go to Rejected to begin with, after a vote.
[16:07:02] <lovetox> good, so council should decide
[16:07:15] <ralphm> So it is Experimental -> Proposed -[vote]-> Rejected/Draft
[16:07:16] <lovetox> experimental because author was reached and promises to do something
[16:07:23] <lovetox> or rejected, we cant reach anyone
[16:07:51] <lovetox> i feel there is no need for a hard state machine, LC -> Rejected -> experimental
[16:08:19] <lovetox> although i dont care in the end, but this probably generates work for the editor
[16:08:24] <lovetox> and has no real gain
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[16:08:42] <lovetox> council can determine if its worth to go from LC -> Experimantal
[16:08:57] <ralphm> If a modification to XEP-0001 is proposed, including how voting in Council works with three possible outcomes, I'd of course be happy to entertain that proposal in an upcoming Board meeting/
[16:09:18] <MattJ> I'm not sure LC should be an explicit state, I think that's the problem here
[16:09:22] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, The benefit of a hard state machine is that people are slightly less likely to scream about abuse of power.
[16:09:23] <Ge0rG> It's great to have a process to change the process.
[16:09:43] <Kev> MattJ: That may well be.
[16:10:00] <lovetox> Dave Cridland, hm yes didnt saw it from this point of vie
[16:10:05] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I'm pretty sure if there is a Collusion of Council, we can figure out a way to formally follow the process to achieve any desired abuse of power.
[16:10:15] *Ge0rG &
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[16:10:35] <lovetox> also would it be a abuse of power if the council votes on the state?
[16:10:49] <lovetox> i think not
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[16:12:21] <Kev> If I was proposing wording to xep1, I would go with a slightly more formal:
When LC expires, Council shall vote on advancement to Draft. If this vote fails Council shall then vote on Rejection. If this vote also fails, the XEP shall return to a state of Experimental (and shall later be deferred after the normal period after the substantive modification).
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[16:32:23] <ralphm> I'd +1 that
[16:32:41] <ralphm> So please send a request to that end to Board
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[16:33:51] <ralphm> I think it would be useful, though, to actually record objections in the Changelog. We haven't done this, before, but it might be useful to see the history if progressing failed at some point.
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[16:37:21] <Ge0rG> +1 to that
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[17:16:32] *Maranda 💕 muc favicons.
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[17:16:46] <Maranda> 🤣
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[17:37:30] <ralphm> https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/987382007452889088?s=09
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[17:38:28] <ralphm> RCS? Come on.
[17:38:43] <Maranda> Apparently
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[17:40:20] <moparisthebest> difference being they couldn't charge xmpp servers for federation like they can with carriers I'm assuming
[17:40:44] <moparisthebest> what is this? google's 10th attempt at instant messaging? 20th? I've lost count
[17:41:00] <lovetox> and this one is obviously going to failk
[17:41:03] <lovetox> and this one is obviously going to fail
[17:41:19] <moparisthebest> sure I mean why would anyone think the 20th time is the charm :)
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[17:47:34] <ralphm> moparisthebest I'm not sure if that's true, but it has little to do with Open
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[17:52:40] <moparisthebest> right it's not open at all, this RCS business
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[17:53:54] <Zash> Which RCS is this even?
[17:54:16] <moparisthebest> Zash, https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/19/google-changes-its-messaging-strategy-again-goodbye-to-allo-double-down-on-rcs/
[17:54:23] <Zash> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services ?
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[18:05:17] <MattJ> Yes
[18:06:17] <Ge0rG> RCS is the massive fail that happens when telcos try to grasp and monetize whatsapp
[18:06:44] <lovetox> i dont get it, its not anymore just about messaging
[18:06:58] <lovetox> this reads like all it does is send one message to a contact
[18:07:11] <moparisthebest> we should make bets how long this lasts before google abandons it
[18:07:24] <lovetox> i bet it doesnt even start
[18:07:31] <Ge0rG> "RCS could allow free chats across different networks on Android or other devices" except that it's operated by the telcos and billed by the message
[18:07:32] <moparisthebest> I give it maybe a year before they give up
[18:07:50] <moparisthebest> yea I agree lovetox I don't think it'll ever get off the ground, but I give it a year until they give up
[18:08:27] <moparisthebest> think of the poor telcos missing out on all those sweet per message fees! <- something no one has ever said except telco CEOs
[18:08:40] <Ge0rG> RCS was "introduced" in 2012 and nobody wanted it but the carriers. No idea who paid Google how much to get them behind it.
[18:09:18] <Ge0rG> But as it doesn't even fit Google's business strategy, I would counter-bet that this public announcement is all we are going to see of their involvment
[18:10:10] <lovetox> in most countrys sms are free anyway
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[18:10:24] <Ge0rG> Okay, there is _maybe_ one way for Google to align it with their strategy - by selling targeted RCS spam to companies
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[18:11:03] <Ge0rG> lovetox: SMS were free, then telcos discovered they can bill users per message and then it took over a decade to get decent flatrate offers
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[18:11:27] <lovetox> yeah i just mean, now why going back
[18:11:29] <Ge0rG> I've only switched to an SMS flat two months ago
[18:11:35] <lovetox> nobody will accept paying for a message
[18:11:40] <Ge0rG> lovetox: because RCS is a premium service
[18:11:44] <Ge0rG> lovetox: have a look at MMS.
[18:11:53] <lovetox> nobody used that ^^
[18:12:11] <Ge0rG> lovetox: my father-in-law used that, before I gave him ChatSecure. At least MMS was working.
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[18:15:03] <Ge0rG> besides, telcos will go a long way to protect their revenue model. One of the reasons Windows Phone failed was that telcos feared it would come bundled with Skype
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[18:35:01] <ralphm> RCS is much much older than 2012.
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[18:37:21] <Ge0rG> ralphm: but that's when it emerged to the general public and made everybody realize how big it's going to fail.
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[18:44:03] <ralphm> I.e. it builds on IMS, which started in 1999 or so.
[18:44:46] <ralphm> Yeah, I can only hope that with Google touching it, it will be truly dead soon.
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[19:03:48] <Andrew Nenakhov> Average Google service lifespan is like 1400 days... So this RCS will likely be over by 2023
[19:04:05] <Andrew Nenakhov> Source for lifespan: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/22/google-keep-services-closed
[19:04:11] <ralphm> I don't Allo is that old
[19:04:31] <ralphm> (think)
[19:04:56] <Andrew Nenakhov> For some it happens sooner. That's why it is called "average" )
[19:05:11] <Andrew Nenakhov> Allo is 3 years old I guess
[19:05:26] <dwd> 21 Septmeber 2016, apparently.
[19:05:32] <dwd> So 18 months.
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[19:05:50] <Andrew Nenakhov> Actually reading that link I remembered how much I liked Google Wave
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[19:07:01] <ralphm> Hah, Google Wave's federation effort was one guy.
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[19:07:22] <Andrew Nenakhov> Oh, I recalled that it was announced in spring event, but not in 2015 but in 2016, so it's closer to 2 years
[19:07:44] <ralphm> (and yes, I have the t-shirt)
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[19:08:21] <dwd> Andrew Nenakhov, Announced in Google I/O 2016 (Spring?) but not launched for months afterward.
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[19:10:20] <Andrew Nenakhov> Well, if you have 5 (6?) competing messaging services, it's quite probable they'll have shorter than average lifespan 😂
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[21:01:40] <ralphm> Too bad I was busy at work today, but I love debunking comments on HN. Like this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882916
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[21:02:46] <moparisthebest> "it’s driven by the same companies that charge the equivalent of $1000+/mb for sms delivery" ha I never thought about it like that, excellent
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[21:03:15] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I'm not sure which part of your comment is "debunking"
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[21:03:42] <ralphm> Well, the argument that XMPP is too old
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[21:03:59] <ralphm> But I guess my other comment is better
[21:04:07] <Ge0rG> ralphm: that was not an argument the OP made. They only wrote that XMPP failed, without a root cause analysis
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[21:04:49] <ralphm> It was implied, I think, but sure
[21:05:12] <Ge0rG> ralphm: I'm not sure about that.
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[21:06:23] <ralphm> People on HN generally use two arguments against XMPP: 1) too old, 2) xml/battery
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[21:07:12] <Zash> You forget those who go "lalalallaala, matrix is the best!!"
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[21:08:51] <Zash> and "matrix is winning because bridges"
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[21:10:31] <pep.> daniel, seems interesting!
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[21:10:49] <Ge0rG> Zash: we need a matrix bridge to rule them all
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[21:10:59] <pep.> (goulash programming thing)
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