Monday, April 23, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:41:31] <daniel> Can a muc member revoke their own membership?
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[07:42:24] <jonasw> probably not?
[07:42:30] <daniel> I don't find anything specific related to that in the xep. Maybe some servers just allow the admin command if the removed user matches user who runs the query
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[07:43:50] <Zash> Isn't membership editing limited to the owner(s)?
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[07:45:32] <daniel> Yes that's what I meant. Maybe some specific implementations allow that if the member you want to edit is the requesting member
[07:45:51] <daniel> But it's certainly not explicitly mentioned in the xep
[07:45:56] <winfried> Well, that may be a GDPR issue... :-(
[07:46:16] <Ge0rG> daniel: that's only half a step away from allowing members to make themselves an owner ;)
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[07:46:41] <jonasw> winfried, not sure. the owner is responsible for the members list.
[07:46:57] <jonasw> much of this might boil down to the question whether users have the right to have their data deleted from other peoples data.
[07:47:13] <Zash> An exception for members leaving the group makes sense
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[07:47:37] <jonasw> like, my roster is *my* data, are you allowed to force me/my server operator to delete your JID from my data?
[07:47:50] <winfried> jonasw: storage and membership are two different processings
[07:48:08] <jonasw> winfried, where’s the difference?
[07:48:12] <Zash> jonasw: That doesn't happen tho
[07:48:31] <jonasw> Zash, what doesn’t happen?
[07:48:39] <Zash> Just updating the subscription state to none
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[07:48:55] <pep.> Zash: yeah makes sense, there could be an exception for that
[07:49:06] <winfried> jonasw: showing membership, relaying messages, storing messages
[07:49:07] <jonasw> Zash, I think somebody argued that even storing PII like the JID could be an issue.
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[07:53:30] <Zash> Group creator storing other people's jids?
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[07:54:32] <winfried> jonasw Ge0rG pep. if you are able look at the document I send to the members list before the meeting of 12:30, it would be very helpful
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[07:55:01] <Zash> Ge0rG: Easy MUC leaving ?
[07:55:16] <jonasw> winfried, I don’t see a document on the members list
[07:55:18] <jonasw> are you subscribed?
[07:55:37] <Zash> I saw it
[07:55:46] <jonasw> meh, restarting my MUA
[07:55:52] <jonasw> there it is!
[07:56:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: Akonadi FTW!
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[07:56:22] <jonasw> Ge0rG, indeed. akonadictl restart and 5s later it’s on order. jokes aside, it has some weird troubles with switching networks while the notebook is suspended :/
[07:56:22] <pep.> .odt aww, you're going to force me to use the big guns
[07:56:23] <winfried> Zash: yes, storing a JID as MUC owner is a 'processing' in the context of the GDPR, but it not a very problematic processing
[07:56:29] <jonasw> pep., I can put a .pdf somewhere
[07:56:47] <pep.> Nah I have libreoffice it's fine
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[07:56:55] <pep.> I just never use it
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[07:57:45] <Zash> No .txt? :)
[07:58:01] <winfried> sorry about that, I just wanted to go to bed after working 14 hours straight yesterday and didn't want to figure out how I would be able to put that table in the Wiki (what I would have preferred)
[07:58:32] <jonasw> wiki tables are a PITA indeed
[07:58:41] <jonasw> maybe Zash can apply some pandoc magic to convert this to mediawiki markup?
[07:59:03] <winfried> :-D be my guest!
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[07:59:46] <Zash> Pandoc probably reads odt, so sure
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[08:06:23] <daniel> we don't have to make that about gdpr. but if clients tend to show the entire member list (not just the currently joined users) we should give users the ability to actually 'leave' a muc
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[08:06:42] <jonasw> daniel, indeed
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[08:07:25] <pep.> daniel: agreed
[08:07:43] <Zash> There being three or so separate lists is fun too
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[08:08:15] <jonasw> three separate lists?
[08:08:36] <daniel> owner, members admins
[08:08:51] <Ge0rG> winfried: awesome table, looks good to me
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[08:09:06] <jonasw> I can’t parse the table.
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[08:09:14] <jonasw> speaking of which, I might not be very useful in todays meeting.
[08:09:50] <pep.> I'm on my phone with nothing installed for that ATM (still in bed :-°)
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[08:10:08] <jonasw> pep., I can upload you a pdf, as I said
[08:10:28] <pep.> It can wait that I get on the laptop
[08:10:33] <jonasw> pep., https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/GDPR-table.pdf
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[08:10:39] <pep.> Unless..
[08:10:40] <jonasw> pep., but I won’t let you :>
[08:11:09] <winfried> jonasw: mentally parse?
[08:11:24] <jonasw> winfried, yeah
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[08:11:40] <jonasw> not your fault though, I’m tired and exhausted for unrelated reasons.
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[08:12:14] <winfried> jonasw: any amount of coffee that would resolve the issue?
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[08:12:27] <Maranda> Lazy pep. it's past 10
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[08:12:47] <jonasw> winfried, I’m caffeine-free for several months now; also, no :)
[08:12:48] <pep.> Maranda: BST not CEST
[08:13:29] <Maranda> Pft then it's past nine still lazy
[08:13:30] *Ge0rG took a 1000km trip last week to grab his coffee machine.
[08:13:44] <jonasw> that’s some serious dedication!
[08:13:48] <jonasw> or addiction.
[08:13:49] <Maranda> Indeed
[08:13:57] <Maranda> I think more the latter
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[08:14:13] <Maranda> But could be dedicated addiction
[08:14:13] <Ge0rG> I can stop any time I want!1!!
[08:14:26] <Zash> Why would you tho
[08:14:31] <Maranda> Or dedication to addiction
[08:14:34] <pep.> winfried: "how to safeguard on remote server?", that also came across last time, what falls on the recipient's consent exactly?
[08:14:40] <Maranda> Whichever sounds better
[08:14:47] <pep.> Can we clarify this during the meeting
[08:15:25] <Ge0rG> I think we don't need to ensure explicit consent to s2s delivery.
[08:15:41] <winfried> pep.: yes, please note questions like these, the thing is still subject to improvement
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[08:16:23] <winfried> Ge0rG: agree, but *only* if no additional processing is done on the remote server :-(
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[08:17:15] <Ge0rG> winfried: technically, the remote server is subject to the GDPR because you forward it data from EU citizens, right? ;)
[08:17:16] *Maranda looks at the calendar
[08:17:33] *Maranda places a big red cross
[08:17:38] <Ge0rG> winfried: I wonder if we need contracts or in-band XML markup for that
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[08:17:59] *Maranda puts enphasis on the red and big
[08:18:11] <jonasw> winfried, you wrote "implicit permission" for user metadata (presence) in grounds for processing; but isn’t approving a presence subscription explicit permission?
[08:18:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, both
[08:18:40] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's explicit approval but implicit data sharing permission, I'd say
[08:18:56] <jonasw> hmkay
[08:19:13] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, I have the same line of thought, the question if it is subject to the GDPR is not settled yet, and probably not relevant at all
[08:19:29] <winfried> jonasw: yes, correct, plz take notes
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[08:20:20] *winfried has to do some other job now
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[08:26:16] <pep.> And Maranda, it's not because you might have obligations that I also have to get up before 9 :p
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[08:26:48] <Maranda> Lazy
[08:26:56] <Maranda> Just lazy
[08:26:58] <pep.> Sure
[08:27:03] <pep.> I want my sleep!
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[10:28:01] <jonasw> j
[10:28:03] <jonasw> .
[10:28:17] <jonasw> GDPR in 2?
[10:28:21] <winfried> yes
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[10:29:51] <jonasw> winfried, what do you mean by "can we safeguard XY on remote server?"?
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[10:29:59] <jonasw> do you mean "can we ensure that on remote server?"?
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[10:30:40] <winfried> jonasw: ensure
[10:31:14] <jonasw> right
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[10:32:15] <winfried> pep. Ge0rG present?
[10:32:28] <pep.> !
[10:32:28] <Ge0rG> hi there
[10:32:41] *winfried *bangs* the gavel
[10:32:51] <jonasw> quick announcement: I’ll have a hard cutoff today at 13:30 CEST due to a meeting with my master thesis supervisor
[10:33:16] <winfried> jonasw: he can wait, this is more important :-D
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[10:33:32] <jonasw> I’ll tell him that, I bet he’ll be convinced ;-)
[10:34:23] <winfried> shall we from out the table I have build?
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[10:34:34] <jonasw> winfried, so, we’re plowing through Q1.1e today?
[10:34:40] <jonasw> seems good
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[10:34:50] <winfried> Any questions / amendments / additions
[10:34:57] <winfried> ?
[10:35:08] <jonasw> not right now
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[10:36:31] <winfried> Ok, then lets tackle the issues top to bottom ;-)
[10:36:36] <jonasw> let’s do that
[10:36:55] <winfried> We need to inform about the processing
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[10:37:06] <jonasw> the EULA thing in the credentials row seems to be a technical TODO for the EULA-XEP
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[10:37:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: EULA doesn't imply EULA XEP. Yet.
[10:37:49] <winfried> jonasw: what do you mean with "EULA-XEP"? A XEP containing a standardized EULA?
[10:38:22] <pep.> winfried, additions, what I asked this morning
[10:38:25] <jonasw> winfried, a XEP which defines how clients obtain the key points from a servers EULA. it would (in my mind) also contain *defaults* which apply to every xmpp server.
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[10:38:30] <jonasw> (that would be among them)
[10:39:09] <pep.> Once the message hits s2s, is it on the recipient's consent, for whatever reason. Unless it's a service on the other end not a person
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[10:39:27] <Ge0rG> jonasw: did you check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P3P for overlaps?
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[10:39:52] <jonasw> no
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[10:40:09] <Ge0rG> pep.: I claim it's fair game to tell your users that whatever you send to a remote server is subject to that server's ToS
[10:40:34] <pep.> Ge0rG, but they wouldn't know what server, would they
[10:40:40] <pep.> I mean
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[10:40:45] <pep.> I can, you can, my mom doesn't
[10:40:53] <pep.> I can, you can, my mom doesn't know
[10:41:03] <jonasw> with the EULA XEP it *would* be possible to have your client show you that ToS.
[10:41:11] <Ge0rG> pep.: by sending a message to mark@facebook.com your messages are subject to facebook ToS.
[10:41:24] <pep.> Ge0rG, but in her client it's written "Mark"
[10:41:28] <jonasw> but I think it’s even more fair game (and less critical) to say that "a message you send to someone is handled like the recipient wants, not like you want"
[10:41:45] <Ge0rG> pep.: show me a client that doesn't expose the JID of newly added users
[10:41:53] <pep.> jonasw, I agree with that, not sure how to expose it to users
[10:42:10] <pep.> Ge0rG, ok, now explain that to users
[10:42:13] <jonasw> pep., I think that’s common sense.
[10:42:36] <jonasw> Ge0rG, once we’re at the point of invitation URLs we might get rid of most of that. I wouldn’t rely on that.
[10:42:38] <pep.> Explain to users that's it's 2 different things, localpart and domain, and not just one thing
[10:42:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I disagree
[10:42:58] <pep.> I agree with jonasw
[10:43:04] <jonasw> fight!
[10:43:25] <Ge0rG> "somebody who claims to be called jonas wants to add you to their contacts. [yes] [no] [wtf is jonas]"
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[10:43:53] <Ge0rG> now stop bike-shedding please.
[10:44:01] <Ge0rG> we've got real business to accomplish here.
[10:44:33] <pep.> Just for completeness, "Hey foo, I gave your details to bar, he's going to add you" *foo receives a contact request from _bar_* [yes] [no]
[10:44:46] <pep.> back to 1.1e?
[10:45:02] *winfried takes my eyes of the chatwindow and sees a catfight upon return
[10:45:11] <jonasw> :D
[10:45:16] *jonasw meows innocently
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[10:45:55] <jonasw> so what do we have?
[10:45:59] <winfried> I propose to postpone this discussion and start a top: informing the user upon account creation
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[10:46:13] <jonasw> +1
[10:46:22] <winfried> that doesn't need a EULA-XEP
[10:46:41] <Ge0rG> winfried: maybe it does, if the user does IBR
[10:46:43] <winfried> but a standard/model EULA may come in here handy
[10:47:02] <winfried> Ge0rG: isn't IBR evil and banned?
[10:47:03] <jonasw> yeah
[10:47:10] <jonasw> no, IBR isn’t banned
[10:47:15] <jonasw> it’s even getting developed
[10:47:26] <jonasw> see XEP—0401 for example.
[10:47:32] <pep.> And maybe in a not-so-distant future clients will support data forms
[10:47:49] <winfried> OK
[10:47:54] <Ge0rG> So there are different things we might understand under "EULA XEP":
- a template for writing server EULAs
- a protocol for informing the client about the EULA URL
- a protocol for informing the client about specific EULA details
- an s2s protocol to let remote users know of your EULAs
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[10:48:16] <jonasw> in my mind it’s a mix of the first and the third point
[10:48:18] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[10:48:20] <pep.> Ge0rG, I was kind of including all the above
[10:48:32] <jonasw> yeah, kinda all of those actually
[10:48:51] <pep.> Maybe less focused on s2s at first, but that was mentioned a few times
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[10:48:52] <winfried> Will that be 1 XEP or 4?
[10:49:07] <jonasw> do we need to figure out the formalities of that XEP in this meeting?
[10:49:13] <Ge0rG> strictly speaking, we don't need any of those, except #2 for IBR
[10:49:16] <pep.> I think the direction is good
[10:49:27] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[10:49:29] <Ge0rG> So I suggest we skip out the EULA topic
[10:49:39] <Zash> Template / guidelines for writing an EULA sounds like an informal XEP if anything
[10:49:47] <Ge0rG> Zash: 👍
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[10:50:00] <pep.> Ge0rG, the s2s thing, how do you do that without a XEP?
[10:50:16] <pep.> Same for 3. actually
[10:50:32] <pep.> But yes I agree the details of the XEP can be done outside this meeting
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[10:50:52] <Ge0rG> pep.: my point is: we haven't yet established the need for any EULAs but the ones between a user and their server
[10:51:13] <Zash> Template / guidelines for writing an EULA sounds like an informational* XEP if anything
[10:51:16] <winfried> Summary to solve first block: template EULA + protocol for informing client of EULA URL for IBR
[10:51:16] <Ge0rG> pep.: and until there is a legal requirement to have remote EULA consent dialogs, we don't need an s2s EULA XEP
[10:51:31] <pep.> ok ok
[10:52:03] <winfried> correct? Then we can move to the second blob
[10:52:07] <jonasw> +1
[10:52:14] <Ge0rG> Otherwise we'll have to maintain a list of remote EULAs the user has accepted and block access to any other domains. Ain't that great?
[10:52:27] <pep.> Ge0rG, not saying it is, at all :/
[10:52:37] <winfried> Metadata in C2S context
[10:53:14] <winfried> I guess we need to inform server operators about the limits here
[10:53:26] <Ge0rG> winfried: good point.
[10:53:45] <Ge0rG> winfried: so we need a second document aimed at server operators outlining the limits
[10:53:54] <pep.> yep
[10:53:56] <winfried> yes
[10:54:00] <jonasw> yes
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[10:55:33] <pep.> Ok so 1.1e really is "come up with that document"
[10:55:34] <winfried> I guess we need also mention this in the EULA template
[10:56:14] <winfried> but do we need to communicate any standardized EULA clauses to the clients here or a link to the EULA?
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[10:56:37] <winfried> I guess maybe keep the link visible
[10:56:49] <jonasw> both is good
[10:56:53] <winfried> (and handle changes)
[10:56:55] <jonasw> wtih both I mean a combination of both
[10:57:02] <jonasw> that’s essentially whta the EULA-XEP originally was about
[10:57:34] <winfried> third Blob
[10:57:40] <Zash> eula { url, registered clauses ... }
[10:57:50] <winfried> Metadata in S2S context
[10:57:51] <Ge0rG> with standardized EULA clauses, we are really in the P3P territory and somebody should have a hard look at that prior work
[10:58:05] <jonasw> I think all the "how to ensure on remote servre" things can be answered with "not".
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[10:58:12] <jonasw> Ge0rG, I’ll put that on my todo.
[10:58:16] <jonasw> but I can’t promise anything
[10:58:33] <winfried> Ge0rG: I don't know *how* standardized that has to be
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[10:58:59] <winfried> But P3P sure is a good thing to look at
[10:59:16] <Ge0rG> winfried: me neither. I'd say that having a human-readable ToS template is a good first approximation for now
[10:59:27] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
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[10:59:35] <Ge0rG> unless the current s2s blob makes us formalize enforceable s2s requirements
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[10:59:49] <Ge0rG> which I hope to avoid at any cost
[10:59:54] <winfried> jonasw: ensuring remote server, can't be done on a technical level
[11:00:13] <jonasw> winfried, exactly
[11:00:21] <jonasw> and on a legal level it’s at least questionable.
[11:00:22] <winfried> (if the data is readable, ik can leak)
[11:00:30] <jonasw> is it the responsibility of the service operator to ensure that all s2s peers comply?
[11:00:51] <Ge0rG> winfried: it's possible to enforce on a technical level that the claimed s2s server's policy matches the user's requirements
[11:01:16] <Zash> Is it not enough to say that communication with remote peers are up to them, the user consentend when they sent a remote-addressed stanz
[11:01:41] <jonasw> I’d even go as far as "sends any stanza to a user which is not themselves"
[11:01:48] <Ge0rG> I see three outcomes:
- we can't / won't enforce any s2s behavior / compliance claims
- every server needs to advertise whether they comply with GDPR
- P3P style fine-grained formal description
[11:01:49] <jonasw> because even on the same server users might’ve opted in to MAM while you didn’t
[11:01:53] <winfried> I am in doubt now
[11:02:29] <pep.> jonasw, that could make sense
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[11:03:05] <winfried> Ge0rG: first one, we may say: transfer is obvious to other server and part of the service the user requested, so leave it
[11:03:28] <Ge0rG> winfried: does that apply both to EU and thrid contries based servers?
[11:03:33] <winfried> but then we come in the realms of forwarding my mail to gmail
[11:03:40] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes
[11:03:45] <Ge0rG> does it need to be obvious to the user where the server is hosted?
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[11:05:19] <winfried> Ge0rG: good question, don't have a definitive answer to that: transfer outside the EU needs to be mentioned in the EULA, but the legal demands for S2S inside the EU are the same as outside the EU (in the context we have now)
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[11:06:17] <winfried> - "- every server needs to advertise whether they comply with GDPR" - that may not be needed, advertise 'no secondary use / profiling' would suffice!
[11:06:57] <winfried> - "- P3P style fine-grained formal description " is in my opinion an overshoot (but that is an opion)
[11:07:03] <Ge0rG> winfried: so I suppose just covering the possibility of EU and third-country transfer in the EULA is sufficient?
[11:07:45] <winfried> Ge0rG: I *guess* so, would be interesting to take to court though...
[11:08:37] <pep.> hmm, can we come back to user-metadata C2S for a sec, I'm trying to find points to write down, but apart the TODO: document for server operators, I don't see much
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[11:09:21] <pep.> The EULA XEP is also mentioned in every step concerning C2S for now
[11:09:22] <winfried> pep.: also publish a link to the EULA, needs to stay available + system for versioning the EULA...
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[11:10:30] <pep.> I was hoping to include versioning into the XEP, not yet sure how/if really needed
[11:10:32] <jonasw> and notifying the user of changes
[11:10:38] <pep.> yeah that as well
[11:10:45] <winfried> But do we want to reside on the most minimal version of S2S: inform it can happen, don't ensure anything on the remote server
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[11:11:23] <pep.> Inform *s2s* can happen?
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[11:11:41] <winfried> pep.: yes
[11:11:42] <jonasw> winfried, do we have a choice?
[11:12:09] <winfried> If it is obvious to the user it is handled by an other server with other legal status, it is ok like that, but we had that 'does my mother understand' catfight.. that is relevant here
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[11:12:57] <pep.> I'd be enclined to even say to the user "careful your messages may be considered differently once you send any stanza to a user which is not you", as jonasw mentioned above
[11:13:00] <pep.> So even C2S
[11:13:06] <jonasw> winfried, I don’t think we can make that obvious
[11:13:34] <jonasw> TLDs are not a safe indicator for that, IPs are a bit better, but not available to the client.
[11:13:35] <pep.> +1 to that ^
[11:13:45] <jonasw> unless it does SRV lookup for the service itself
[11:14:00] <jonasw> which may easily yield you a geo-located response with your closest entry ponit to the cluster
[11:14:12] <jonasw> so it would look as if it was EU from within the EU, but in fact the servers are partially outside the EU
[11:14:30] <jonasw> (DNS round-robin could case something similar with less fancy efforts)
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[11:15:17] <winfried> I don't think we need to handle inside EU and outside the EU differently here: both are allowed if it us needed the perform the servers the user requests
[11:15:20] <jonasw> TL;DR: we can’t really show that to the user and have to assume the worst.
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[11:16:12] <winfried> The issue is, do we need to tell the user if more is done with the data then is needed for performing the service the user requested?
[11:16:41] <jonasw> I don’t know.
[11:16:42] <pep.> I think we do, yes
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[11:16:48] <pep.> Well legally I don't know
[11:17:00] <Ge0rG> winfried: I'd say we need something like "messages sent to users on other servers are subject to those servers data usage policies"
[11:17:11] <Ge0rG> + yadda yadda non-EU countries
[11:17:20] <pep.> + other user's settings?
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[11:17:37] <winfried> + & + +1 ;-)
[11:17:55] <pep.> wat wat
[11:17:58] <Ge0rG> pep.: two different statements, first about other users -> their archival config, second the above one
[11:18:15] <Ge0rG> I'll make an attempt at writing an EULA once I have the time. In a month or so
[11:18:31] <jonasw> s/to users on other servers/to other users/;s/to those servers data usage policies/to the policies the those users agreed to, which may be more liberal than the policies you agreed to/
[11:18:40] <pep.> you still have a month and 2 days before GDPR, you're safe
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[11:18:56] <pep.> yes I'd prefer jonasw's version
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[11:19:31] <pep.> I don't know if that holds legally, but that's a bit more thorough
[11:19:47] <jonasw> I don’t either
[11:19:50] <winfried> So no need for a S2S EULA XEP?
[11:20:12] <pep.> If we have this kind of disclaimer I don't think so?
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[11:20:51] <pep.> Though, we were at "metadata"
[11:20:56] <pep.> Not data, yet
[11:21:13] <pep.> But I guess that still holds
[11:21:16] <winfried> I would *like* to know it, but is it needed for the GDPR? I doubt it.
[11:22:00] <winfried> maybe write a XEP like that and advertise it as 'good practice'?
[11:22:06] <pep.> winfried, probably implicit consent with roster subscriptions, or user joining MUCs etc.
[11:22:08] <Ge0rG> pep.: I think everything said above also holds true for data
[11:22:15] <pep.> Ge0rG, same
[11:22:20] <winfried> Ge0rG: +1
[11:22:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, +1
[11:23:07] <pep.> Do we go with Ge0rG or jonasw's version?
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[11:23:17] <jonasw> if the "once you send it to the recipient, the recipient is responsible" holds, we’re good with it I think
[11:23:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw had the better polished wording
[11:23:32] <pep.> good
[11:24:11] <winfried> everything said here holds on the content too, except for MAM storage
[11:24:15] <jonasw> Δt=-6m
[11:24:27] <pep.> winfried, how does it not include MAM
[11:24:28] <jonasw> winfried, how’s MAM storage different?
[11:24:46] <pep.> Plan for next?
[11:24:55] <winfried> that one is legitimate interest of third party (maintaining a log)
[11:25:02] <winfried> (art 6.1f)
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[11:25:41] <Ge0rG> winfried: with the receiver being the third party?
[11:25:44] <pep.> winfried, third-party as is recipient? That falls under "messages send to other users are subject to policies those users agreed to"
[11:25:47] <winfried> yes
[11:25:53] <jonasw> what pep. says
[11:26:03] <pep.> winfried, third-party as is recipient? That falls under "messages sent to other users are subject to policies those users agreed to"
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[11:26:24] <jonasw> I gotta run in a few mins, plan for next?
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[11:26:31] <winfried> jonasw: yes
[11:26:47] <jonasw> I don’t have time tomorrow or on Wed
[11:26:53] <winfried> thursday same time?
[11:26:54] <jonasw> Thu or Fri would work, usual time
[11:27:02] <jonasw> Thu 12:30 CEST
[11:27:04] <pep.> Thu same time worksforme
[11:27:10] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ^
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[11:27:30] <Ge0rG> +1 on either
[11:27:35] <jonasw> it’s settled then
[11:27:38] <jonasw> anything else?
[11:27:43] <winfried> Thu 12:30 CEST
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[11:27:53] <winfried> Good work again!
[11:27:55] <pep.> We've covered credentials, User metadata/data (C2S/S2S) then
[11:28:10] <jonasw> thanks all!
[11:28:15] <jonasw> heading out now
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[11:28:15] <winfried> pep.: much applies to content to
[11:28:21] <winfried> jonasw: good luck!
[11:28:25] <pep.> yes, "data"
[11:28:31] <pep.> ah it's called content
[11:28:32] <pep.> ok
[11:29:05] <pep.> hmm, instead of "messages", we should say "Stanza" probably?
[11:29:06] <winfried> pep.: if you mail the logs, then I will try to update the schedule
[11:29:15] <winfried> pep.: +1
[11:29:23] <pep.> Or something that the end-user can undertand
[11:29:25] <Zash> I pandoc'd this https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table if that's fine
[11:29:27] <pep.> instead of stanza
[11:29:46] <winfried> Zash: yes, that would be great!
[11:29:52] <pep.> Zash, nice
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[11:30:23] <winfried> Any possibilities to add lines between the fields?
[11:31:19] <winfried> Zash: it *IS* great, thanks a lot!
[11:31:33] <Zash> I don't know, I'm not /that/ familiar with mediawiki syntax.
[11:31:47] <winfried> Zash: I will have look myself otherwise...
[11:32:04] <Zash> Please do, it's a wiki after all :)
[11:32:46] <winfried> Zash: :-D
[11:32:49] <pep.> Zash, do I include you in the participants? :)
[11:33:41] <Zash> pep.: Maybe a little? I barely follow this tho.
[11:33:41] <pep.> winfried, today's minutes compress well :P
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[11:34:13] <winfried> pep.: I also took some notes myself, but they are not objective ;-)
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[11:35:43] <winfried> Zash: lines added...
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[11:36:13] <pep.> winfried, https://bpaste.net/show/23e279a44f9e
[11:36:20] <pep.> I'm going to send this
[11:36:35] <winfried> pep.: great!
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[11:38:18] <pep.> I'll include a link to the table as well
[11:38:48] <winfried> pep.: missing the 'inform server operators' from the logs ;-)
[11:38:59] <pep.> at what point
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[11:40:04] <winfried> [12:53:14] <winfried> I guess we need to inform server operators about the limits here

[11:40:20] <pep.> I meant, where does that go
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[11:40:47] <pep.> what limits
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[11:40:51] <winfried> It is about the limits of using art 6.1b and 49.1b
[11:41:16] <pep.> Also I should include Ge0rG's points on the EULA XEP
[11:41:30] <pep.> And that it won't be tackled during this meeting
[11:41:37] <winfried> so it is a limit to what processing can be handled with this EULA template
[11:41:42] <pep.> Right
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[11:43:04] <winfried> Have to go now, other business to attend...
[11:43:16] <winfried> thanks, pep.
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[14:15:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[14:15:52] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:16:02] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[14:19:48] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
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[14:22:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[14:26:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:27:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:27:09] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:27:11] *** ludo has left the room
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[14:29:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:29:51] *** intosi has left the room
[14:29:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[14:32:15] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[14:32:15] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[14:44:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[14:53:26] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
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[15:01:04] *** daniel has left the room
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[15:07:16] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[15:07:36] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[15:18:22] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is "here (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
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[15:25:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
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[15:26:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[15:27:26] *** winfried shows as "online"
[15:27:27] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[15:27:31] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[15:34:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[15:43:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:45:52] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[15:54:52] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[15:55:13] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:55:14] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[15:56:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:56:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[15:56:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[15:59:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:06:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:06:55] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:07:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:07:51] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[16:08:10] *** Guus has left the room
[16:08:11] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:08:11] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:11:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:11:39] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:13:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:13:47] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:14:13] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[16:14:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:14:35] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:14:44] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[16:15:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:15:09] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:23:30] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:23:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:23:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:24:24] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:24:44] *** Guus has left the room
[16:24:45] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:24:51] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:25:02] *** Guus has left the room
[16:25:02] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:25:05] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[16:25:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:25:09] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:27:23] *** jubalh has joined the room
[16:27:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:27:29] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:28:38] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[16:28:38] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:28:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:28:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:29:04] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:29:42] *** mhterres has joined the room
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[16:30:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:30:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:30:27] *** intosi has left the room
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[16:31:08] *** edhelas has left the room
[16:31:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:31:27] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[16:31:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:32:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:32:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:33:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[16:34:03] *** dwd has left the room
[16:34:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:34:44] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[16:35:31] *** Guus has left the room
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[16:36:18] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:36:31] *** Guus shows as "online"
[16:37:42] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:37:58] *** Tobias shows as "away"
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[16:38:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[16:44:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[16:44:55] *** Kev shows as "online"
[16:45:06] *** Kev has left the room
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[16:46:00] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[16:48:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:48:33] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:49:11] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:49:39] *** marc has left the room
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[16:52:54] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[16:53:12] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:53:27] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[16:53:31] *** Guus has left the room
[16:53:45] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:53:45] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:53:45] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:53:46] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:54:18] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[16:54:39] *** jjrh has left the room
[16:54:40] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[16:54:53] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[16:56:10] *** SaltyBones shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:56:21] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[16:56:24] *** daniel has left the room
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[16:56:32] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:56:33] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[16:58:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:58:33] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:58:52] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[17:00:00] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[17:00:03] *** jubalh has joined the room
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[17:00:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:00:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:01:48] *** Yagiza has left the room
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[17:03:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[17:03:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[17:05:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[17:05:04] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:05:27] *** Wiktor has left the room
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[17:05:45] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:06:10] *** SaltyBones shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:06:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:06:25] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:06:36] *** lnj has left the room
[17:06:49] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:07:10] *** Zash has left the room
[17:07:20] *** Zash has joined the room
[17:07:27] *** Zash has left the room
[17:07:41] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:08:25] *** Zash has joined the room
[17:09:36] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[17:11:01] *** valo has joined the room
[17:14:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:14:30] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[17:16:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:16:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:16:25] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:17:08] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[17:17:09] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:17:48] *** daniel has left the room
[17:17:52] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:19:15] *** dwd has left the room
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[17:23:21] *** ludo shows as "online"
[17:23:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:23:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[17:24:06] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:25:22] *** marc has joined the room
[17:26:06] *** SaltyBones shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:26:17] *** marc has left the room
[17:26:31] *** Guus has left the room
[17:26:42] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:26:53] *** marc has joined the room
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[17:29:14] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:30:28] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:30:29] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:30:29] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:30:52] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[17:32:30] *** Zash has left the room
[17:33:03] *** Valerian has left the room
[17:33:03] *** Valerian has joined the room
[17:34:06] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:36:06] *** SaltyBones shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:36:07] *** Zash has joined the room
[17:36:09] *** Zash shows as "online"
[17:37:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:39:28] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[17:39:31] *** rion has left the room
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[17:40:23] *** Guus shows as "online"
[17:41:49] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:41:52] *** vanilla has joined the room
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[17:49:09] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:49:14] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:50:31] *** Guus has left the room
[17:50:39] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:50:42] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:50:42] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[17:52:16] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[17:52:18] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[17:52:52] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[17:52:55] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[17:53:51] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[17:54:14] *** winfried shows as "online"
[17:54:28] *** Nekit shows as "online"
[17:54:51] *** suzyo has left the room
[17:55:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:55:03] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:55:06] *** Valerian has left the room
[17:55:07] *** Valerian has joined the room
[17:55:08] *** Valerian has left the room
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[17:57:38] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[17:59:59] *** Tim shows as "online"
[18:00:31] *** Tim shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:00:37] *** Tim shows as "online"
[18:00:52] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:01:08] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:01:20] *** Maranda shows as "online"
[18:02:21] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:02:40] *** j.r has joined the room
[18:05:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:05:03] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:05:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[18:05:24] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[18:08:57] *** marc shows as "online"
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[18:11:31] <dwd> That was an easy email to write. :-)
[18:12:14] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[18:16:15] <Zash> Impressive diversity in formulating your statements.
[18:16:31] *** Guus has left the room
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[18:17:11] <dwd> Repetition is a powerful argument of its own.
[18:19:15] *** dwd has left the room
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[18:28:36] <jonasw> lol
[18:29:16] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[19:05:02] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:06:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:06:17] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[19:14:04] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[19:14:48] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:15:08] *** lumi shows as "online"
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[19:16:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:16:17] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:18:28] *** Kev has left the room
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[19:20:20] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:20:20] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:20:20] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:20:20] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[19:20:22] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[19:21:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[19:23:30] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[19:30:24] <Ge0rG> I suppose everyone is free to pick their weapons
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[20:19:07] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:59:00] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:59:12] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[21:10:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[21:11:01] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[21:47:19] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[22:00:20] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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