Monday, April 30, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:41:51] <pep.> crap, gdpr meeting today
[09:41:54] *pep. doing minutes
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[10:03:34] <pep.> dropping this here for later, did we forget about pubsub re right to erasure. Deletion is already in the protocol (right?), but we did mention PEP
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[10:08:39] <pep.> jonasw, no progress on the xep template? (for the minutes)
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[10:24:13] <jonasw> gdpr in 7, winfried, pep., Ge0rg
[10:24:30] <Ge0rG> 👍
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[10:25:03] <jonasw> pep.: I have something uncommitted locally, still need to figure out who has to approve such a change
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[10:27:33] <pep.> Ok
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[10:32:57] <pep.> !
[10:33:17] <Ge0rG> ¡
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[10:33:42] <winfried> !
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[10:33:54] <pep.> Right, this time I'm starting minutes right now.
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[10:34:16] *winfried bangs a gavel ;-)
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[10:35:17] <jonasw> .
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[10:35:20] <winfried> I didn't had time to process minutes of meeting 9 yet, but I did do 8
[10:35:32] <pep.> That's my fault
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[10:35:47] <winfried> Not here to blame
[10:36:07] <jonasw> where are we at?
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[10:36:20] <pep.> Right to erasure, a few technical TODOs
[10:36:30] <pep.> And then maybe Q2
[10:36:39] <pep.> As I asked above, did we forgot to mention pubsub?
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[10:36:46] <pep.> Re right to erasure
[10:37:08] <Ge0rG> pep.: what kind of pubsub?
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[10:37:15] <pep.> not PEP
[10:37:24] <pep.> Any
[10:37:31] <winfried> Pubsub is not in our list of processing personal data
[10:37:49] <winfried> it does (potentially) generate interesting metadata
[10:37:56] <Ge0rG> winfried: it's also "user data", probably
[10:38:01] <edhelas> dependes if they are public pubsub nodes or private ones no ?
[10:38:18] <pep.> -xep 223
[10:38:25] <pep.> bunneh!
[10:38:40] <jonasw> pep., in any case, pubsub *does* allow deletion
[10:38:45] <jonasw> via protocol
[10:38:55] <pep.> jonasw, yes, but just as we mentioned PEP I thought we could mention it as well
[10:38:55] <jonasw> either by retracting individual items or by deleting or truncating the whole node
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[10:38:59] <Ge0rG> edhelas: yes, private ones are interesting in GDPR context
[10:39:15] <Ge0rG> because public data is public
[10:39:33] <edhelas> what about exporting ?
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[10:40:02] <Ge0rG> exporting what to where?
[10:40:11] <jonasw> Ge0rG, probably the right to get a zipfile with all your data?
[10:40:15] <winfried> plz one question at the time, edhelas ;-)
[10:40:39] <pep.> yeah, we should also answer this question, at some point
[10:40:42] <pep.> For any kind of data
[10:41:13] <pep.> (edhelas do you have a hl on pubsub btw?)
[10:41:14] <winfried> jonasw: is there any place except the logfiles where the stored data can't be obtained in a machine readable format?
[10:41:31] <jonasw> winfried, probably not
[10:41:34] <pep.> Technically everything is done via XMPP right?
[10:41:40] <edhelas> pep. no I don't, just having the room open
[10:41:50] <jonasw> winfried, except maybe archives where you don’t have access anymore for some reason.
[10:41:55] <pep.> We could "export" stuff via xmpp
[10:41:55] <jonasw> like MUC-MAM
[10:42:10] <pep.> "just" need a client that supports every single XEP :-°
[10:42:12] <pep.> gajim?
[10:42:21] <Ge0rG> jonasw: even when you do have access, you can't delete from MUC-MAM
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[10:43:13] <jonasw> Ge0rG, we’re on export now, not on deletion.
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[10:43:57] <Ge0rG> Aren't they sufficiently related to better treat both at once?
[10:44:10] <winfried> I see two issues raised here:
1 pubsub allows a private form, that is not just 6.1b (implied consent, as used almost everywhere) but also explicit consent, 6.1a as in MAM
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[10:44:32] <winfried> 2 deletion is not everywhere part of the protocol and needs to be added
[10:44:43] <pep.> winfried, for 2., we have TODOs
[10:44:45] <winfried> ( jonasw that is a question for the template too)
[10:44:49] <pep.> Maybe not *everything* yet
[10:45:11] <winfried> pep.: correct, 2 is already in the todo
[10:45:25] <pep.> Though I think we've covered that pretty much last time
[10:45:46] <winfried> I guess PubSub can be handled as a combination of MAM and everything else
[10:46:30] <winfried> BTW: see table https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table I don't talk about issues to solve anymore but resolutions
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[10:48:36] <pep.> What do we do about export then. There's no need for anything particular in the protocol as it's already there.
[10:48:58] <jonasw> winfried, do we need to add deletion to the protocol for sure? AFAIK it would be sufficient to have a way for operators to conveniently delete data.
[10:49:00] <pep.> We might want to provide a tool (client) that does that, dump everything?
[10:49:34] <jonasw> pep., that’d be a technical todo. makes a lot of sense.
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[10:50:02] <pep.> jonasw, as a first step maybe. On "big" deployments, handling that might be demanding?
[10:50:07] <jonasw> problem is, how to find all your data scattered across the different services?
[10:50:13] <pep.> (re deletion)
[10:50:14] <jonasw> think MUCs on different domains
[10:50:27] <pep.> do we have to handle that?
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[10:50:29] <jonasw> dunno
[10:50:34] <Ge0rG> interesting point.
[10:50:42] <Ge0rG> the same for pubsub
[10:51:03] <pep.> Unlike most email setup, we don't keep track of what you've sent
[10:51:04] <winfried> The idea of downloading is not to get a PDF like facebook sends, but to be able to migrate
[10:51:05] <jonasw> my understanding would be that each domain is its own operator and you’d have to ask them for your data...
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[10:51:48] <jonasw> winfried, in that case, we’d also need ways to feed things back into the (presumably new) service.
[10:51:50] <pep.> jonasw, that's also what I would I thought. Now I don't know
[10:51:50] <winfried> I guess migration is makes most sense to do live from the network, not from a stored file
[10:51:53] <jonasw> which is currently not possible e.g. with MAM
[10:51:57] <pep.> The user is not especially aware of that
[10:51:58] <jonasw> winfried, agreed
[10:52:20] <winfried> jonasw: feeding back is funny enough not part of the GDPR
[10:52:33] <Ge0rG> the market will solve that *cough*
[10:52:33] <jonasw> pep., agreed, but your own operator can’t do anything about it -- unless they log every domain you ever interacted with. that seems like an undue burden and also an unfortunate accumulation of data.
[10:52:34] <pep.> for migration, can we not revive {xep moved}?
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[10:52:47] <pep.> Zash, plz bring back bunneh
[10:53:02] <jonasw> pep., https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html
[10:53:06] <Ge0rG> pep.: xep-0227
[10:53:21] <jonasw> oh neat
[10:53:25] <pep.> oh
[10:53:36] <pep.> interesting
[10:53:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, wat
[10:53:48] <pep.> so a combination of both?
[10:53:50] <jonasw> Ge0rG, that is for servers
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[10:54:23] <Ge0rG> pep.: moved is for when you change your JID. 227 is for when you move your domain to another hoster
[10:54:45] <Ge0rG> With the huge number of commercial XMPP domain hosters, this is a real problem.
[10:54:56] <pep.> Ge0rG, when you move your domain to another hoster you also change JIDs
[10:55:07] <jonasw> Ge0rG, buuut that is off-topic for user GDPR things
[10:55:14] <jonasw> pep., no
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[10:55:20] <jonasw> when you move your *domain* to another hoster, the domain stays the same.
[10:55:25] <pep.> ah, err
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[10:55:54] <pep.> 227 also allow moving from one domain to another right? It doesn't care
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[10:56:02] <pep.> It's just moving data between two XMPP servers
[10:56:22] <jonasw> pep., no, it preserves domains
[10:56:32] <jonasw> it does care, and it is off-topic to the end-user GDPR discussion.
[10:56:40] *winfried is tired and in overflow mode. what are the demands of the GDPR here? AFAIK only being able to download in a machine readable format
[10:56:40] <jonasw> (unless I’m mistaken)
[10:56:47] <pep.> Ok less interesting than I thought then
[10:56:57] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'd say that 227 qualifies as an "export format"
[10:57:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, parts of it *maybe*
[10:57:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's the best we have on that front
[10:57:28] <jonasw> (also, it needs to be updated. it expects plaintext passwords)
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[10:58:22] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you can get parts of your export in-band (MAM, PubSub - if you know the nodes); and you can use 227 for the whole of your account
[10:58:23] <winfried> Why don't we take the most minimalist approach: XMPP is a machine downloadable format (better documented then every thing else you will see), just use XMPP
[10:58:24] <Ge0rG> in theory
[10:58:48] <Ge0rG> winfried: what do you want to export that way?
[10:59:11] <winfried> My server stores my roster, MAM
[10:59:50] <winfried> I can be owner of pubsub nodes, I can always download those
[10:59:57] <Ge0rG> winfried: so you argue that you can get your roster and MAM data as an "export" just by querying them in-band?
[11:00:11] <winfried> Ge0rG: Correct
[11:00:18] <Ge0rG> winfried: that's great.
[11:00:20] <pep.> Ge0rG, that's also what I thought when I mentioned an "export tool" (a client)
[11:00:39] <Ge0rG> I'd say we need to list all the data types and their respective means of export.
[11:00:40] <winfried> I don't see why we should do more here
[11:00:59] <pep.> What's the exact requirement here
[11:01:12] <pep.> Do we have to provide a format that can be used by other servers
[11:01:12] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, if we need to do anything more here, then it would be such a list
[11:01:16] <Ge0rG> winfried: if we want to export the data in a way that allows uploading it into another hoster, we are left with 227.
[11:02:11] <pep.> That's article 20 right?
[11:02:15] <jonasw> (227 is maybe a good start, but not a silver bullet to this; it isn’t suited to transfer between different JIDs, due to deep references to the original JID)
[11:02:18] <winfried> pep.: looking in my bible for the exact requirement
[11:03:01] <pep.> "in a structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and have the right to transmit those data to another controller"
[11:03:03] <winfried> pep.: yes, art 20
[11:03:37] <pep.> 20.2, "shall have the right to have the personal data transmitted directly from one controller to another, where technically feasible."
[11:04:45] <winfried> Look also at this: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-68/
[11:05:03] <pep.> yes
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[11:06:13] <winfried> 20.1a is also interesting, that would mean only mam and pubsub needs to be transferable
[11:06:28] <pep.> transferable how
[11:06:49] <pep.> They already are, to the client
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[11:07:16] <winfried> pep.: yes, 20.2 would be needed too
[11:07:27] <pep.> 20.2 is s2s transfers yes
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[11:09:06] <jonasw> winfried, roster, too
[11:09:37] <jonasw> regarding 20.2, I think as long as we don’t have a XEP for that, it’s not technically feasible
[11:09:43] <winfried> jonasw: do we store roster under 6.1a or 6.1b?
[11:09:55] <pep.> jonasw, we could start from 227
[11:10:26] <winfried> jonasw: btw, transfering your roster would be a great thing to offer
[11:10:52] <pep.> Transferring anything really
[11:11:32] <pep.> Being able to move servers with the click of a button would be great
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[11:12:17] <winfried> So make an up to date version of 227 that allows transfer of one user?
[11:12:35] <pep.> That's more or less what's asked, no? "where technically feasible"
[11:12:35] <winfried> What kind of auth mechanism would that take?
[11:12:39] <jonasw> I’d probably rather build on top of XEP-0238 (Moved)
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[11:13:08] <Ge0rG> yeah, if we remove the "manual approval needed" from 0238, it'd be great.
[11:13:11] <pep.> jonasw, I think we need both
[11:13:16] <pep.> Ge0rG, yes!
[11:13:30] <Ge0rG> I planned to dump that into standards@ for a year now
[11:13:35] <pep.> go go
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[11:13:40] <jonasw> I don’t want to get into technical details here.
[11:13:45] <pep.> So, technical TODO?
[11:13:50] <jonasw> yes
[11:13:51] <pep.> Look into 227/283
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[11:16:19] <jonasw> ok, what’s next?
[11:16:34] <pep.> I think that's about the end of 1.1e?
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[11:17:02] <winfried> do we have to check the technical ToDo on deletion?
[11:17:18] <pep.> check how?
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[11:17:42] <winfried> pep.: good question... ;-)
[11:18:57] <jonasw> what do you mean exactly?
[11:19:54] <winfried> From the minutes (9):
Data that will need to be deleted on Right to Erasure (17.1) request:
- MAM contents
- Offline messages (if separate from MAM)
- Roster
- XML Private Storage
- PEP
- other custom processing?

[11:20:27] <winfried> Should we add anything to that list
[11:20:41] <pep.> 223?
[11:20:50] <jonasw> winfried, HTTP Upload?
[11:20:51] <pep.> private pubsub
[11:21:10] <pep.> and http-upload yes
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[11:21:19] <pep.> Plus I mentioned that in the TODOs below..
[11:21:53] <winfried> PubSud does delete, so private should too, right?
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[11:22:15] <pep.> jonasw, server-side stored files then. because it's possibly not just http-upload
[11:23:09] <pep.> winfried, yes yes
[11:23:10] <winfried> But maybe we should expand that list to XEPs and RFC's that need deletion...
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[11:23:21] <pep.> I just think that should be mentioned as well
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[11:23:31] <winfried> pep.: agree
[11:23:35] <pep.> This list is not just for those where it's not implemented
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[11:25:01] <winfried> Maybe we / somebody should make a list where deletion may be applicable and check where it is implemented and where not...
[11:25:28] <jonasw> I gotta run in 5
[11:25:31] <jonasw> date of next?
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[11:26:17] <winfried> +1 +2 or +4
[11:26:24] <jonasw> days, I presume
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[11:26:34] <jonasw> not sure if I can make +1 due to the holiday
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[11:26:41] <jonasw> +2 is not an option since it’s wednesday
[11:26:43] <jonasw> +4 could work
[11:26:49] <pep.> can do
[11:26:53] <pep.> ah wait
[11:26:57] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ^
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[11:27:22] <pep.> I might be late
[11:27:27] <pep.> On friday
[11:27:34] <jonasw> +30min would be fine for me, too
[11:27:39] <jonasw> (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST
[11:27:40] <pep.> k
[11:27:40] <jonasw> (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST)
[11:27:49] <pep.> That would work
[11:27:56] <jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG?
[11:27:57] <Ge0rG> probably a no from me for Thu
[11:28:03] <pep.> friday
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[11:28:29] <Ge0rG> I have a probably-cancelled appointment on Fri.
[11:28:30] <winfried> Friday 13:00 CEST WFM
[11:28:34] <Ge0rG> Will have to phone-check with them
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[11:29:31] <pep.> Also heads up, 26? days until dday
[11:29:31] <Ge0rG> okay, can do on Fri
[11:29:35] <pep.> okay
[11:29:44] <jonasw> ack
[11:29:45] <jonasw> gotta run
[11:29:45] <winfried> Friday 13:00 CEST
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[11:30:05] <winfried> jonasw: thanks!
[11:30:28] *winfried bangs the gavel
[11:30:29] <pep.> Ok, minutes incoming
[11:30:39] <winfried> pep.: great!
[11:30:49] <winfried> Have some work to do, again...
[11:31:23] <pep.> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/zSeJf1fqWnhVVk6LEjM0Xg/9CRtkSfVga8dtSuc8oDxjtv4/ anything I missed?
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[11:33:19] <pep.> pff that markdown editor
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[11:33:29] <winfried> mention recital 68
[11:33:31] <pep.> It doesn't want to split my quotes
[11:33:32] <pep.> ok
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[11:35:15] <winfried> Note: we are overshooting the GDPR requirements here, strictly only MAM and PubSun need to be transferable
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[11:35:27] <pep.> goffi, your jingle-ft component, is it only to put in relation two clients atm? Does it store anything on the server? I haven't had a look yet
[11:35:39] <pep.> winfried, isn't it any PII?
[11:35:59] <pep.> "shall have the right to receive the personal data"
[11:36:23] <winfried> pep.: No, only PII that is processed under 6.1a (see art 20.1a)
[11:36:30] <pep.> oh
[11:36:39] <pep.> ah right, as specified in 20.1a
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[11:37:16] <goffi> pep.: the component is for server side things, so it keep stuff and this can be shared with as much people as you want (based on a whitelist). In addition, there is also a P2P sharing which is not using the component.
[11:37:39] <pep.> Ok so there is server-side file storage involved
[11:38:01] <goffi> yes, and I plan to add file deletion before release.
[11:38:02] <pep.> Does your implementation keep track of who uploaded what
[11:38:05] <pep.> cool
[11:38:16] <goffi> yes it does
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[11:38:35] <pep.> Is that specified in the XEP(s) you used?
[11:38:52] <pep.> Do the XEPs even talk about server-side jingle
[11:38:54] <winfried> pep.: I think we should report / be open that we are overshooting on transfer
[11:39:05] <pep.> winfried, agreed, I'll add it
[11:39:15] <goffi> the XEP is for sharing file listing. Deletion is not specified, I'm planing to use ad-hoc commands for that.
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[11:40:22] <winfried> goffi: better should be a protocol for that (not overseeing its feasibility)
[11:40:28] <goffi> pep.: the XEP was done for P2P sharing between device, which is my second use case. I'm just using it in a component to have server file storage.
[11:40:30] <pep.> winfried, might be good to add a TODO for this as well
[11:40:42] <winfried> pep.: +1
[11:40:54] <pep.> goffi, sure. We're just looking at what needs to be done in the context of GDPR
[11:40:57] <pep.> For servers
[11:40:57] <goffi> winfried: I'm experimenting, and will propose protoXEP for each thing not implemented as soon as possible
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[11:41:30] <winfried> goffi: great!
[11:41:37] <pep.> goffi, can I add that in the minutes? Saying you're looking into it?
[11:42:08] <pep.> I should also reference your previous thread on standards
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[11:42:16] <goffi> pep.: sure. I'm willing to write a blog post about that for weeks, but lacking time
[11:42:24] <pep.> cool :)
[11:42:31] <goffi> anyway I'll release an alpha version soon
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[11:48:55] <pep.> winfried, sending
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[11:50:24] <winfried> pep.: thanks!
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[16:17:47] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[16:27:47] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[16:40:55] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[16:50:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:50:37] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:52:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[17:09:37] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:15:58] *** marmistrz has left the room
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[17:19:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:19:37] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:22:48] *** lskdjf shows as "away"
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[17:27:29] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[17:36:34] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:36:41] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[17:36:46] *** marmistrz has left the room
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[20:22:16] *** Nekit shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:22:31] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:23:18] *** jubalh has left the room
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[21:47:12] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[22:09:01] <Maranda> Apr 30 22:07:08 s2sin5f23e00 debug Received[s2sin_unauthed]: <starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'><required/></starttls>
Apr 30 22:07:08 mod_s2s debug sending: <proceed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'>
[22:09:04] <Maranda> huhuhuhu
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