Tuesday, May 01, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:02:09] <Ge0rG> xnyhps: Y U h4xed my car? https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/volkswagen-and-audi-cars-vulnerable-to-remote-hacking/
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[07:15:44] <Maranda> Yay perhaps "Watchdogs 2" style
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[07:23:21] *Ge0rG ain't no consolero
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[07:23:41] <Maranda> Your loss
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[07:26:14] <Ge0rG> I'm playing sokoban today. The old house is full of boxes, and the transporter guys will arrive in T-22h
[07:26:33] <Ge0rG> And I still have to put most of the things I own into boxes.
[07:27:27] <Maranda> Hmm on a different topic does yax.im fetches a static public servers list from somewhere? If it does at all
[07:27:31] <Maranda> Sounds fun
[07:27:57] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you mean yaxim, the client, not yax.im the server?
[07:28:02] <Maranda> And s/Yax.im/Yaxim/
[07:28:21] <Maranda> No the client obviously
[07:28:25] <Ge0rG> Maranda: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/blob/master/res/values/servers.xml
[07:28:55] <Ge0rG> That URL doesn't work any more
[07:29:03] <Ge0rG> The original source is lost.
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[07:30:32] <Maranda> Ge0rG I re enabled IBR (I implemented account locking and e-mail verification for it, so it's rather safe) now I need to scour all clients who singled out my server and re-add it 🙄
[07:30:45] <Maranda> PR incoming soon
[07:30:53] <Maranda> Btw
[07:31:09] <Ge0rG> Maranda: yaxim doesn't support entering the email address / data-forms
[07:31:21] <Ge0rG> Maranda: feel free to PR that as well
[07:31:29] <Maranda> Ge0rG damn you! 🤣
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[08:05:02] <Holger> Almost no clients do.
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[08:12:31] <pep.> Which is sad
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[08:18:41] <Maranda> Well Gajim does and that is sorted
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[08:19:06] <Maranda> I suppose that saves me sending PRs all around
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[08:20:01] <Maranda> As usual spent time implementing something that will be unused
[08:20:39] *Maranda thinks "That's XMPP lads ®️"
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[08:28:54] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[08:30:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[08:34:52] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[08:36:44] <Holger> Ah I thought not even Gajim supported this last time I checked.
[08:37:51] <Holger> Maranda: Does it support the email field or the form or both?
[08:37:58] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[08:42:23] <Maranda> Holger it does support all custom fields
[08:43:26] *** Alex has left the room
[08:43:28] <Maranda> s/custom/additional registration/ rather
[08:44:22] <Maranda> If you enable verification it'll make e-mail mandatory
[08:44:33] <Maranda> And I guess "both"
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[08:46:58] <Holger> Sounds good.
[08:47:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[08:56:03] <Ge0rG> Gajim's user onboarding is so messed up, I don't even want to think about it
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[09:42:35] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[09:53:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[10:04:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:06:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[10:12:19] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[10:14:09] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[10:15:19] *** jubalh has left the room
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[10:18:54] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[10:21:06] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:21:07] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[10:21:24] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:21:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[10:26:59] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[10:27:34] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[10:27:39] *** andy shows as "away"
[10:27:50] *** andy shows as "online"
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[10:38:11] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[10:38:18] *** andy shows as "xa"
[10:38:21] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[10:38:44] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[10:42:34] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[10:45:43] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[10:51:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:51:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:52:27] *** andy shows as "xa"
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[10:54:26] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:54:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[10:57:29] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[11:02:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[11:03:18] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:03:55] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[11:06:14] *** andy shows as "online"
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[11:08:40] *** Guus shows as "online"
[11:08:42] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[11:15:18] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[11:17:45] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[11:18:14] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[11:19:15] *** dwd has left the room
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[11:20:52] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
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[11:28:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:28:56] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[11:38:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:38:56] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:40:06] *** ta shows as "online"
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[11:54:01] *** andy shows as "away"
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[11:59:01] *** andy shows as "xa"
[11:59:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:00:18] *** Valerian has left the room
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[12:03:18] *** McKael shows as "online"
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[12:10:05] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[12:14:58] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[12:15:09] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:15:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:17:27] *** blabla shows as "online"
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[12:21:51] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
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[12:26:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[12:37:01] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
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[12:38:29] *** Holger shows as "online"
[12:38:35] *** marc shows as "online"
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[12:44:05] *** McKael shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:44:10] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[12:44:11] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[12:44:37] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[12:44:52] *** Guus has left the room
[12:44:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:44:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:45:53] *** andy shows as "online"
[12:46:05] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
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[12:47:09] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:47:33] *** Guus has left the room
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[12:50:18] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[12:51:23] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[12:51:52] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[12:52:49] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[12:52:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[13:02:58] <Maranda> Ge0rG, I don't find it so messed and it supports dataforms element pretty well
[13:03:07] <Maranda> https://upload.lightwitch.org/share/WMKL7jaY5eHb9786/ibr-forms.png
[13:03:41] <Ge0rG> Maranda: what did you have to enter in the screen before?
[13:03:57] *** matlag shows as "online"
[13:04:19] <Maranda> just accounts, new account, and if you don't have any it'll bring you there automagically?
[13:04:31] *** rtq3 has left the room
[13:04:38] <Ge0rG> how did you chose the server?
[13:04:46] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[13:04:50] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:04:57] <Maranda> register a new account > list of servers
[13:05:05] <Maranda> how is that messed?
[13:05:25] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[13:11:11] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[13:16:50] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[13:19:36] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
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[13:21:36] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:21:49] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[13:32:53] <SamWhited> This is a vaguely interesting thread if you want to see how people that aren't in this room think about instant messaging: https://twitter.com/actuallyalice/status/990889721525161986
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[14:24:18] <Maranda> we need 90s messaging back, where you'd have msn, yahoo, jabber, ICQ all running from 1 app
[14:24:36] <Maranda> huhu
[14:24:36] <moparisthebest> Maranda, can't you do that using pidgin right now?
[14:24:53] <Maranda> moparisthebest, sorry I'm quoting one of the tweets
[14:25:05] <Maranda> I should have actually quoted it
[14:25:14] <moparisthebest> oops, I should read previous posts sometimes :)
[14:26:33] <Maranda> And I should stretch bbl
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[18:18:23] <lovetox> they could use just sms
[18:19:12] <moparisthebest> did someone say https://jmp.chat/ ?
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[18:56:56] <moparisthebest> https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-on-the-front/ "Amazon threatens to suspend Signal's AWS account over censorship circumvention"
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[19:16:46] <UsL> interesting.. Time to choose smthng else than a centralized solution like that..
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[19:20:21] <moparisthebest> maybe some type of federated standard might be a good choice
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[20:03:01] <Wiktor> moparisthebest: in case you're interested in what would Signal guys respond to "federated would help" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16870595
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[20:04:48] <moparisthebest> I'll summarize that:
[20:05:10] <moparisthebest> "there are serveral other properties and trade-offs like then we couldn't lock people into our walled garden"
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[20:08:13] <Wiktor> I think it's a valid point that if you have federated but only a handful of big servers, it's still easy to block, I think zinid mentioned this previously (but I may be wrong). The rest is of course marketing but that's obvious :)
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[20:13:45] <moparisthebest> sure I agree with that
[20:13:55] <moparisthebest> but the point is to have a bunch of small ones
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[20:14:11] <moparisthebest> the bigger ones have more resources to resort to hacks like signal
[20:14:30] <moparisthebest> (multiple servers, answer differently to different regions, etc)
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[20:15:14] <Wiktor> > but the point is to have a bunch of small ones
And I agree with that 👍
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[20:16:25] <moparisthebest> and if the govt starts blocking them, new ones can start up to replace those
[20:16:30] <Wiktor> One way or another it's interesting to see how Moxie resolves their problems, well, usually it's better to learn on someone else's problems
[20:16:33] <moparisthebest> it becomes a game of whack-a-mole
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[20:17:10] <Wiktor> Yes, but until your identity is tied to domain name you'd have to setup your roster each time you switch a server
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[20:18:08] <moparisthebest> well we could expand the protocol to make things like that easier
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[20:18:27] <moparisthebest> (or just save them locally on the client and share them across accounts, no protocol involved)
[20:18:46] <Ge0rG> Like Briar?
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[20:22:19] <Wiktor> Identify user by keys not domains... And we're back to OpenPGP!
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[20:23:00] <moparisthebest> hmm that is an interesting thought
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[20:23:31] <moparisthebest> the onion-like setup would in theory allow you to chat with 1 person on multiple JIDs, identified by key
[20:23:51] <moparisthebest> and since there rosters are 100% client-side anyway, you could hop servers as much as you wanted
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[20:24:10] <Ge0rG> > @signalapp Time to move to the blockchain!:D
https://twitter.com/pray4crypto/status/991390269798010880 nailed it!
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[20:24:31] <Wiktor> Sign your subscription requests and clients can see you're the same person :)
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[20:25:33] <Zash> But federation isn't about censorship resistance.
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[20:27:07] <Ge0rG> Zash: no? I'm out then!
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[20:27:45] <moparisthebest> Wiktor, yea but who wants to leak to the servers that you are the same person? :)
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[20:28:54] <Wiktor> Did I forget "encrypted with OMEMO" ? Encryption here and there a little always help... :)
[20:29:17] <moparisthebest> anyone know a server in the wild that implements this websocket discovery method? https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7395#section-4
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[20:30:05] <Wiktor> moparisthebest: conversations.im
[20:30:53] <Wiktor> But they lack correct CORS headers for web clients for this file... Forgot to report that
[20:31:04] <moparisthebest> thanks!
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[20:32:04] <Wiktor> No problem, I tested one web client there, worked like a charm. Actually this is just a file and both ejabberd and Prosody have websocket support. So it's trivial to set up.
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[20:35:06] <Ge0rG> Oh, is my client desynchronized, or is the board meeting still ongoing?
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[20:36:51] <ralphm> I thought I fixed that
[20:37:10] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[20:37:16] <ralphm> I blame Conversations
[20:37:22] <moparisthebest> yea Wiktor I just wanted to see an example of an actual file in the wild :)
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[20:38:01] <Wiktor> Got it :)
[20:38:09] <Ge0rG> ralphm: thanks!
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[20:39:58] <Zash> Looks like I still have one too
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[20:41:34] <ralphm> Zash: but federation does address some issues caused by attempts to censorship. E.g. the blockage in Russia of AWS would not affect servers hosted in Russia.
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[20:56:38] <Andrew Nenakhov> ralphm, unless servers hosted in Russia will also be blocked from AWS. And they will be, eventually.
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[21:02:06] <Wiktor> I think the point is just that Russia users could talk to their friends in Russia without problems (unaffected by AWS).
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[21:04:42] <Andrew Nenakhov> No. Russian servers would be asked to give up data or be shut down
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[21:42:11] <ralphm> Which is different threat.
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[22:35:52] <Andrew Nenakhov> Actually it's the same threat. Local servers can be blocked using same method as international ones. Authorities just have even more leverage over local services because they can not only block server but also physically access it.
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