XSF Discussion - 2018-05-03


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  47. moparisthebest are there other ways of connecting to xmpp servers besides rfc-style starttls, bosh, websocket, and xep-0368 style direct TLS ?
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  84. moparisthebest https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/627 https://burtrum.org/hacx/
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  159. jonasw can XEP-0114 components send presence probes?
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  208. mrdoctorwho jonasw, yes
  209. jonasw mrdoctorwho, cool :)
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  225. Maranda moparisthebest, I suppose this would count as bosh as well https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0252.html
  226. Maranda has script syntax for JSON
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  228. Maranda unused useless whatever
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  284. Maranda 5223 would be the defacto standard for _xmpps-client or is that still considered legacy?
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  288. lovetox i dont think so
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  290. lovetox was it not that back in time people thought nobody is going to use it anymore in the future
  291. lovetox and now it seems it comes back
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  293. lovetox oh you mean the port?
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  298. Maranda I mean the port yes, since there's a srv record for it one wonders if there's a registered standard port, or if we're gonna reuse legacy ssl port out of assumption lovetox
  299. lovetox Gajim uses 5223 if there is no srv record
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  369. moparisthebest There is no standard port in xep368
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  393. debacle I hope this "marketing question" is right here: Why does https://xmpp.org/ bring the slogan "The most secure messaging standard" in focus? There are many things to say about XMPP, and it's not bad on security, but still: Is this the most relevant single thing marketing should focus on?
  394. MattJ debacle, have a suggestion for an alternative?
  395. jonasw (speaking of marketing, shouldn’t there be a board meeting soon-ish?)
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  398. MattJ In 40 minutes
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  402. debacle MattJ, I don't have an alternative, but would probably highlight universality of XMPP (IM, IoT, group communication/social, VoIP), in contrast to a specific use case. Marketing people would probably object to blurring the focus in that way :~)
  403. Holger And open federation.
  404. debacle But "most secure messaging standard" doesn't sound really compelling to me.
  405. debacle Even if it is (were) true.
  406. Holger No idea how to pour this into a marketing phrase but would do we pay our marketing department for!
  407. MattJ XMPP is a protocol standard, not an open federation
  408. MattJ See how it's complicated? :)
  409. jonasw remind me, which marketing department again?
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  411. Holger An especially secure standard?
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  413. Ge0rG Who are we even marketing XMPP to?
  414. MattJ debacle just became our marketing department
  415. jonasw boohahaha
  416. MattJ as being the only person to bring this up since the site was created
  417. Holger I was thinking exactly the same though :-)
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  419. Holger (But I won't join the department.)
  420. jonasw as if you had a choice
  421. Holger :-)
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  425. Holger The subtitle is better-fitting though, I think. "Battle-tested. Independent. Privacy-focused."
  426. pep. agreed.
  427. pep. Also I second Ge0rG's question, "Who are we even marketing XMPP to?"
  428. jonasw raise the subtitle to main title?
  429. Seve/SouL wishes XMPP beig THE messaging standard :)
  430. moparisthebest How about "XMPP, screw walled gardens"
  431. jonasw hah
  432. MattJ moparisthebest, again - WhatsApp was XMPP based, Facebook managed an XMPP walled garden for some time, and so on...
  433. moparisthebest yea the who really matters, a business wants something different than privacy focused individual looking to replace LATEST_APP
  434. MattJ xmpp.org is for developers, IMHO
  435. jonasw I tend to agree
  436. pep. MattJ, that's what I would think. What do the statistics say?
  437. MattJ I think by the time an end user reaches xmpp.org, we've lost them :)
  438. moparisthebest "XMPP, screw walled gardens, unless you want to build a walled garden with XMPP, but then you should be ashamed because you are a bad, bad person"
  439. moparisthebest got a bit unweildy there
  440. jonasw :D
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  442. jonasw MattJ, buuuut... what page would an end-user reach instead? :)
  443. pep. I vote for moparisthebest as marketing
  444. MattJ jonasw, doesn't currently exist
  445. pep. clients.html?
  446. Holger jonasw: The app store page.
  447. jonasw :<
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  449. Ge0rG "XMPP, come to us and get lost!"
  450. Kev Nothing fundamentally wrong with building unfederated or not publicly federated systems with XMPP.
  451. Holger Ge0rG: lol, very nice.
  452. Zash XMPP - The Standard
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  454. Kev "XMPP. Standards are good, and we have many to choose from"
  455. Seve/SouL Zash, exactly
  456. Ge0rG I think we need something user-friendly at jabber.org
  457. pep. Ge0rG, what are you waiting for
  458. pep. I don't think xmpp.org should worry about this though
  459. jonasw +w on jabber.org probably
  460. Ge0rG pep.: I'm waiting for some more volunteers to start together the Jabber Software Foundation.
  461. alexis has joined
  462. Zash Ge0rG: If you want it done, you better do it yourself.
  463. Ge0rG Zash: I tend to agree, except for the bus factor
  464. jonasw starting a "foundation" all by oneself is a bit weird unless you have a few M$currency...
  465. pep. I say if you want traction you'd better build a service rather than a front to redirect to tons of different clients
  466. jonasw Ge0rG, ssss the bus-factor among the XSF members!
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  468. jonasw pep., oddly enough, Ge0rG already offers a service :)
  469. pep. jonasw, I know
  470. jonasw so maybe he’s at the next step?
  471. Ge0rG I'm offering a service, a client and consulting.
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  473. pep. hands out badges to Ge0rG
  474. moparisthebest proposed jabber.org slogan: "Jabber, use the name XMPP instead unless you have a team of lawyer's to rival Cisco"
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  476. Ge0rG That trademark was the single most community-hurting thing in Jabber™ history.
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  478. pep. You mean apart from lack of money and manpower
  479. Ge0rG pep.: no.
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  481. Ge0rG pep.: money and manpower are optional if you have some dedication and no trademark trouble
  482. jonasw manpower is never optional.
  483. jonasw but dedication usually implies manpower
  484. pep. money can buy manpower
  485. Ge0rG money can buy trademarks.
  486. pep. we need money!
  487. Seve/SouL Just call it Zimpy, the chat
  488. pep. money and marketing!
  489. jonasw the long-term plan would be to (a) have good clients, (b) rebrand everything to FancyNewName once the clients are ready
  490. pep. Here, I just saved us
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  492. Ge0rG jonasw: said the author of Jabber™Cat
  493. MattJ Heh
  494. pep. :D
  495. jonasw Ge0rG, the "Cat" is the important part, not the "Jabber"
  496. Ge0rG jonasw: I suggest you rename it to SchrödingersCat then.
  497. jonasw unwieldy and un-google-able
  498. Ge0rG ChatCat
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  500. jonasw trademarked
  501. Ge0rG CatChat?
  502. jonasw (I fear we’re now going through the same iterations I went through before settling on Jabber™Cat)
  503. jonasw (note that JabberCat wasn’t my first choice)
  504. Ge0rG > GitHub - skylerto/chat-cat: A chat application written in Node.js. There must be some kind of Rule 34 for Node.js
  505. jonasw lol
  506. Ge0rG I'm still fed up with my "mbsync must have some way to do imap idle" research results
  507. moparisthebest I have an idea, and I understand it might be controversial, but why don't we come up with a neat 4 letter acronym? What about XMPP ? :P
  508. jonasw moparisthebest, do you know of any sucessful general-population application which uses a four-letter acronym?
  509. pep. ping
  510. pep. ah it's not
  511. Ge0rG moparisthebest: we still haven't recovered from the last time we attempted that rebranding
  512. pep. hmm
  513. moparisthebest jonasw, IMAP, HTTP ?
  514. Ge0rG But yeah, Ex-MP-Pee is awesome.
  515. jonasw moparisthebest, those are protocols, not applications
  516. jonasw the applications are "E-mail" and "The web" on one layer of abstraction, or "Outlook"/"Gmail", "Firefox"/"Chrome"/"Internet" on another
  517. moparisthebest well I mean no application is named XMPP is it?
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  519. jonasw this isn’t about naming the protocol
  520. jonasw it’s about naming the IM network
  521. jonasw or ecosystem
  522. jonasw or how you wanna call it
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  524. MattJ "Let me send you an SMTP with the document when I get to the office"
  525. jonasw exactly
  526. Ge0rG MattJ: can't you send me an IMAP instead?
  527. MattJ Ge0rG, sorry, I only JMAP
  528. MattJ https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-kundrat-imap-submit-00.html
  529. MattJ I knew someone had to have done it
  530. Ge0rG but "submit" is not a PC word
  531. moparisthebest I just feel like it's about 20 years late for a rebranding
  532. moparisthebest but oh well
  533. Ge0rG moparisthebest: To the Time Machine!
  534. MattJ Ge0rG, maybe why http://trojita.flaska.net/draft-imap-sendmail-00.html :)
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  540. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I think there is much irony in how the JSF rebranded itself into something that doesn't do ecosystem maintenance any more, a long time ago, while burning the original name with trademark complexity
  541. jonasw moparisthebest, WhatsApp took XMPP, rebranded it to WhatsApp and was quite succesful at it
  542. jonasw I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation.
  543. MattJ +1 to this
  544. pep. yeah
  545. moparisthebest I don't think it was the name, I think it was the money
  546. MattJ Except
  547. Zash Ge0rG: Well, Jabber Inc was involved somehow, then got bought by Cisco..
  548. Ge0rG jonasw: because there is a lack of a dedicated developer community, SV startup funding and the trademark name is burned.
  549. MattJ "dedicated community of XMPP developers" would totally fail :)
  550. jonasw moparisthebest, it wouldn’t have succeeded with a crappy name like XMPP.
  551. MattJ Because we're terrible at everything except making protocols and writing code (and some might argue we're not too good at those things either ;) )
  552. pep. aren't we a dedicated community of developers already?
  553. pep. maybe not that dedicated
  554. jonasw pep., yeah, that’s the issue
  555. Ge0rG MattJ: the one thing we excel at is bike shedding. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade - so what should we do?
  556. Ge0rG Maybe go into politics?
  557. pep. jonasw, please free me from $dayjob
  558. jonasw actually, I am not really allowed in this discussion as per the "no discussions unless an XMPP related commit in the last 24 hours". and I haven’t been allowed for weeks now.
  559. jonasw Ge0rG, :D
  560. jonasw (I /wish/ I was allowed, but among the masterthesis, a bunch of private stuff going on and the job, there isn’t much time left.)
  561. pep. jonasw, I don't think that's an issue specific to XMPP anyway
  562. jonasw it’s an issue specific to FLOSS
  563. pep. yes
  564. jonasw and right now there aren’t any serious non-FLOSS federating IM products
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  566. moparisthebest I still think it's all about money
  567. moparisthebest you can push any crap product given enough money
  568. Zash Marketing budget!
  569. moparisthebest on the other hand, companies can't make money pushing an xmpp client, because it's not a walled garden
  570. MattJ Indeed it is
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  573. moparisthebest pushing a federated xmpp client*
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  576. jonasw I bet one of the first things a professional marketing person would say is "folks, you need a rebrand" ;-)
  577. Holger You can fail pushing a product with money but you can hardly succeed without.
  578. moparisthebest client-wise Conversations seems by far the most successful, but it's a big nothing compared to whatsapp for example
  579. Ge0rG jonasw: that's how they make money, right?
  580. pep. Holger, hah
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  583. moparisthebest jonasw, their first thing would be 'you need to hire me, a professional marketing person'
  584. alexis has left
  585. moparisthebest then since you'd expect them to do *something*, they'd probably pick something useless like that
  586. jonasw I think the name and design of a thing matters more than you’d think, but I’m afraid we have to agree to disagree here.
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  588. moparisthebest to be fair I understand that means nothing at all to me and more than nothing to other people :)
  589. moparisthebest I've been using linux on the desktop since 2006 if that tells you something about my tastes
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  593. Guus It's time for the weekly board meeting. Ralph sent his apologies. Who's here?
  594. Guus MattJ, Martin, Nyco?
  595. MattJ Hey
  596. Guus ... this does not bode well.
  597. nyco Hello
  598. nyco test
  599. nyco we have the quorum
  600. Guus yey
  601. MattJ :)
  602. Guus bangs a gavel
  603. Guus 0. Role Call and Agenda
  604. Guus we've established that we're here
  605. Guus The agenda will be taken from https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings as usual.
  606. Guus Does anyone want to add anything?
  607. marmistrz has left
  608. MattJ Nothing here
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  610. Guus 1. Minute taker
  611. Guus Volunteers kindly line up in rows of 5
  612. MattJ *Rows of 0.5
  613. MattJ I'll do it
  614. Guus thank you
  615. Guus 2. Topics for discussion
  616. Guus (none)
  617. Guus sorry, for _decision_ that is.
  618. Guus 3. Reviewing the commitment list
  619. Guus 3.1 The membership survey on priorities
  620. Guus Mattj, how is that coming along?
  621. MattJ It's fine... sorry, I should have sent it out but haven't yet
  622. MattJ I'll aim to do it later today
  623. MattJ Just need to draft a short email and send the link to members@
  624. Guus excellent
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  628. Guus 3.2 The online shop for selling swag
  629. alacer has left
  630. Guus Nyco, I think you were going to do some further investigation, right?
  631. alacer has joined
  632. Andrew Nenakhov jonasw, > I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation. Because too many XEPs are written by theoreticians who don't produce working implementations.
  633. nyco sorry, I did not dedicate time for this
  634. Guus (Andrew, would you mind waiting for 20 minutes with other discussions while we have our short meeting please?)
  635. nyco aaah, if we had threads...
  636. Guus nyco, can you do it before the next meeting?
  637. Guus threads?
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  641. nyco difficult, but I can find time to draft something, don't expect elaborate study
  642. nyco is this acceptable?
  643. Guus iirc people were primarily interested in the price structure and a brief comparison with alternatives
  644. daniel has left
  645. Guus I personally don't expect an elaborate study.
  646. daniel has joined
  647. nyco that's it
  648. nyco ok
  649. MattJ wfm
  650. Guus thanks
  651. Guus 3.3 Collect info on the role/responsibilities of the XO
  652. marmistrz has joined
  653. Guus That one is assigned to Martin - I'm assuming no-one looked into this?
  654. MattJ I don't think so, no
  655. Guus 4. Items for discussion
  656. Guus 4.1 Fundraising/Financials
  657. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  658. Guus I've not done much more on that. The treasurer did send out an email earlier today that he's trying to follow up on this later this month.
  659. Guus 'this' being an inventory of the state of our sponsors
  660. Guus or at least, that's how I interpreted his message.
  661. Guus I am happy for us to leave it at that, for now - but maybe someone wants to discuss something related?
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  663. MattJ That's fine by me
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  665. nyco not for me
  666. Guus nyco, it's not fine for you, or you don't want to discuss something related?
  667. Guus given no response, I'm assuming the latter.
  668. Andrew Nenakhov Guus, sorry.
  669. nyco ah 😉 I do not want to discuss this, sorry
  670. Guus ok 🙂
  671. Guus has left
  672. Guus no worries Andrew
  673. Guus 4.2: Search for XO.
  674. Guus let's first get clear what the roles/responsibilities for that officer are.
  675. MattJ Right
  676. Guus to bad Peter is not here, he might be able to shed some light on that.
  677. Guus I'll try to ping him
  678. MattJ He already said some time back he did almost nothing in that role
  679. Guus I wonder if there was something that he _should_ have been doing 🙂
  680. MattJ Our discussion led us to - maybe that position should be more active
  681. Guus or _could_
  682. MattJ which we'd need to define
  683. Guus has left
  684. MattJ Finding somebody willing to do next to nothing shouldn't be too hard :)
  685. nyco it's the responsibility that might frighten
  686. nyco it's the little non-nothing to do
  687. MattJ also any ambiguity in responsibilities
  688. alexis has left
  689. MattJ Also... 100% of the current Board is based in the EU I believe. That begs the question, must the ED be in the US?
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  692. Guus ED will probably outlive the yearly board
  693. MattJ I'm guessing not, but it seems a bit strange to have a US org run almost entirely from Europe :)
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  695. nyco United States of Europe 😉
  696. Guus That's more related to the location where we're incorporated (<- unsure of the exact english term for that), than the location of the ED, right?
  697. nyco USE
  698. Guus USEMINUSUK soon
  699. MattJ Guus, changing where the XSF is incorporated is a bit hard compared to anything else :)
  700. jubalh has joined
  701. MattJ I don't currently have any reason to believe that a non-US ED is a problem
  702. MattJ Just curious though
  703. Guus I'm wondering why you bring that up in the first place
  704. Guus I've never given the nationality of any officer any thought at all.
  705. Guus which makes my curious as why you did, just now 🙂
  706. MattJ I see it being a problem with e.g. bank account access, for example
  707. MattJ I know you said we can put Alex on a plane, sure
  708. Guus That's more relevant to the role of Treasurer than ED, I think?
  709. MattJ But it seems a bit strange having a US organisation with nobody responsible for it actually located in the US
  710. Guus true, but officers change. I wonder that if we act on that now, we migth end up with a similar problem anyways in a year or so.
  711. MattJ I'm not proposing any action. Just it was a question that came to mind in the context of the ED search
  712. Guus has left
  713. Guus ok
  714. Guus let's leave it at that for now then 🙂
  715. Guus 5. AOBs
  716. Guus anyone?
  717. MattJ None here
  718. alexis has joined
  719. nyco none
  720. Guus 6. Time of next
  721. Guus +1w is Ascension day (and Ralph already mentioned he'd not be able to make it)
  722. Guus shall we do +2w?
  723. MattJ I also may not be able to make next week
  724. MattJ So yes, let's skip
  725. nyco ok +2wx
  726. Guus ok
  727. Guus bangs gavel
  728. Guus thank you!
  729. nyco thx
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  750. MattJ Minutes sent
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  754. Guus Thank you
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