Friday, May 04, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:01:39] <winfried> GDPR
[09:02:34] <jonasw> in 2 hours?
[09:03:01] <winfried> (oops did I do it wrong?)
[09:03:09] <jonasw> my last information was 1300 CEST
[09:03:19] <jonasw> (a.k.a. 1100Z, so maybe timezone confusion?)
[09:03:41] <winfried> probably... feel I am living in a different zone right now ;-)
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[09:06:09] <winfried> "Date of Next: 2018/05/04 11:00 UTC" - I am not totally crazy ;-)
[09:06:28] <jonasw> oh oops
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[09:06:44] <jonasw> welp
[09:06:54] <Kev> 11:00Z is in two hours (just under)
[09:06:57] <winfried> From the mail from pep.
[09:07:00] <jonasw> right
[09:07:02] <jonasw> ah
[09:07:06] <jonasw> now I’m super confused
[09:07:11] <jonasw> and I *do* have UTC timestamps in MUCs.
[09:07:16] <winfried> so am I
[09:07:18] <jonasw> I don’t seem to be awake
[09:07:27] <Kev> It's 09:07Z at the moment.
[09:07:27] <jonasw> 09:06:09 winfried> "Date of Next: 2018/05/04 11:00 UTC" - I am not totally crazy ;-)
[09:07:35] <jonasw> so yes, GDPR in 2h
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[09:08:15] *winfried is fixing timezone bug in his mind
[09:08:45] <jonasw> echo 'Etc/Utc' | ssh winfried 'sudo tee /etc/localtime'
[09:08:46] *winfried dives into a mild jetlag, Amsterdam is not in UTC
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[09:10:18] <winfried> I know where it is coming from: I always regard myself as the center of the world. :-D
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[09:11:28] <winfried> will be back at 11:00 UTC ;-)
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[10:59:50] <winfried> second attempt ;-)
[11:00:05] <jonasw> riiight, and I managed to entirely forget about this in the meantime :)
[11:00:07] <jonasw> I’m goood
[11:00:15] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG, GDPR in 0
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[11:01:19] <pep.> !
[11:01:28] <pep.> Same, I did also entirely forget
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[11:02:36] <pep.> So, what's up for today
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[11:03:24] <winfried> When updating the WiKi, I came across a question (is MAM 6.1a or 6.1b)
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[11:03:51] <winfried> I want to discuss briefly how we handle existing specs
[11:03:55] <pep.> I think we settled on MAM is opt-in?
[11:04:06] <pep.> And that should be fixed in the XEP/clients
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[11:04:20] <jonasw> (clients)
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[11:05:33] <winfried> pep.: correct, but, if i recall correctly, the reason for it was that MAM is not 'naturally' part of the package when you are communicating
[11:05:37] <pep.> We won't go as far as to prompt the user when he decides to enable MAM right? I mean from the server. « Hey you're enabling MAM, here is what happens no: [..] »
[11:05:49] <winfried> pep.: exact
[11:05:49] <pep.> noa*
[11:05:52] <pep.> *nao
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[11:06:58] <pep.> I'm not sure if we should go this road
[11:07:08] <winfried> but just enabling MAM rather is requesting a service in sense of art 6.1b then an opt-in in the sense of art 6.1a
[11:07:19] <Ge0rG> sorry I'm late.
[11:07:33] <winfried> welcome, Ge0rG
[11:07:50] <jonasw> winfried, is it? I’d say it’s kinda 6.1a
[11:07:54] <jonasw> is it very relevant?
[11:08:00] <jonasw> (which of it it is)
[11:08:17] <winfried> yes, 6.1a has quite tight regulations (art. 7)
[11:08:27] <winfried> 6.1b not
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[11:09:07] <jonasw> winfried, Art 7 should be no problem for enabling MAM
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[11:09:41] <winfried> And the server operator should prove the client has asked the question, kind of hard
[11:10:01] <jonasw> winfried, that was one of my original questions in the whole GDPR-in-XMPP discussion
[11:10:06] <jonasw> who is liable if the client didn’t properly ask?
[11:10:20] <jonasw> is it the client developer? or can the server operator rely on the client asking properly and blame the client if it didn’t?
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[11:11:14] <pep.> yeah and we haven't answered this really. Not that I'm qualified to
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[11:12:21] <winfried> we can avoid that problem altogether if it is 6.1b, what is rather appropriate IMHO because enabling MAM is requesting a storage service
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[11:13:07] <jonasw> I’m not convinced though that this is any type of contract
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[11:14:33] <winfried> jonasw: what is your doubt?
[11:14:51] <jonasw> it may be my IANAL, but when I think contract, I think more formal than ticking a box in a UI
[11:15:00] <jonasw> with terms & conditions I can read and am aware of etc.
[11:16:06] <pep.> jonasw, that's what the EULA XEP is for right
[11:16:19] <jonasw> maybe
[11:17:03] <pep.> When I asked above « are we going to prompt the user when he decides to enable MAM, from the server », I had in mind some version of that
[11:17:59] <winfried> the eula xep is for the obligation to inform. And because the MAM (in case of a muc) may be hosted on an other server, it may be appropiate to include a link to the EULA in that question to...
[11:18:04] <pep.> Like, client issues MAM query, EULA kicks in and requests ticking a box, and MAM gets enabled only if accepted
[11:18:10] <jonasw> winfried, and then, wouldn’t the server operator still have to kinda prove that htere’s that contract with the user, in case of doubt?
[11:18:27] <pep.> I think the burden of proof is required anyway
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[11:19:25] <winfried> pep.: using the service is enough burden of proof for a contract, not for 6.1a
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[11:19:49] <pep.> When the user creates an account, "please read terms & conditions. Here's what going to happen to your data [for X, Y reasons]. Are you ok with it?". This is what I'm picturing
[11:19:57] <pep.> I see
[11:20:51] <winfried> pep.: when going 6.1b, just informing is enough
[11:21:36] <pep.> Shall we allow for both in EULA then? 6.1b only (no ticking box), and 6.1a (ticking box, plus blocking operations)
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[11:22:53] <winfried> pep.: don't know if that is any help, you still need the infrastructure for the burden of proof of 6.1a
[11:22:59] <pep.> I think MAM would fall under 6.1b like jonasw. The operator can state in the terms, "If you enable [MAM], here is what will happen"
[11:23:27] <winfried> pep.: exactly
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[11:24:43] <winfried> Ge0rG: can you give your opinion on this? I propose we move on in the mean time...
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[11:24:49] <pep.> right
[11:25:43] <winfried> We have a list of XEPs that have potential deletion problems, should we check other (all?) XEPs for issues?
[11:26:03] <jonasw> winfried, have you followed the discussion on standards@?
[11:26:12] <pep.> HTTP-upload?
[11:26:13] <jonasw> I’d like somebody except me to reply to the last part of the thread.
[11:26:14] <jonasw> yeah
[11:26:26] <winfried> nope, didn't will look into it
[11:26:36] <pep.> jonasw, the part where people don't want to mix the XEP and laws?
[11:26:42] <pep.> protocol / laws*
[11:26:56] <jonasw> that, and the part with "better have a separate xep which discusses that"
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[11:28:00] <pep.> Yeah. well changes are still required in the XEP to allow deletion via the protocol anyway right? This doesn't have to be because of local laws
[11:28:25] <MattJ> Right, I think the two things are separate
[11:28:27] <jonasw> daniel is against a deletion flow AFAIK
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[11:28:45] <MattJ> I'm not saying I'm in favour of deletion (or against), I just think it's a separate concern
[11:28:51] <pep.> yeah
[11:28:57] <MattJ> An out-of-protocol deletion would work just as well
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[11:29:24] <MattJ> Meanwhile there may be a non-GDPR case where someone accidentally shares the wrong file/picture
[11:29:52] <pep.> Not so long ago a user asked on movim@ for that iirc
[11:29:52] <jonasw> hah, just the other day :>
[11:29:57] <MattJ> :)
[11:30:22] <jonasw> and that fun day when somebody posted very ... uhm ... interesting ... drawn content in prosody@
[11:30:48] <MattJ> I guess I somehow missed that
[11:30:51] <winfried> I will respond in standards and I will need some time here to think it over: there are lots of things at stake in that discussion
[11:31:29] <pep.> We'll need to clear this issue while we're asking for changes in lots of other XEPs
[11:31:41] <Kev> My uninformed take on this is that the GDPR shouldn't mean any need to change any protocols, but that having notes in specs saying "but consider this" is worthwhile.
[11:31:42] <pep.> Because the same question will appear over and over
[11:33:08] <winfried> It has also to do a bit with localization of the XMPP network and values around an open internet. And *every* technology is political and XMPP certainly is. But we must take that discussion to the standards list.
[11:33:20] <Ge0rG> winfried: sorry, got caught up in a business call
[11:33:24] *Ge0rG feels ashamed and guilty
[11:33:31] <pep.> Ge0rG, pff
[11:33:35] <winfried> Ge0rG: expected sth like that
[11:34:18] <winfried> We have half an hour left now, can tick Q.2 there?
[11:34:26] <winfried> (can we)
[11:34:34] <pep.> Can we ?
[11:34:46] <pep.> is that Q1.2 rather than Q2?
[11:35:12] <pep.> I was still stuck in 1.1e in my minutes..
[11:35:12] <winfried> pep.: you are right.
[11:35:40] <winfried> I think 1.1e is about done by now
[11:36:07] <pep.> k, I'm not really clear on the boundaries of 1.1e, I have also mixed that with 1.2 certainly
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[11:36:44] <winfried> and the discussion @standards certainly is 1.3 ;-)
[11:36:53] <pep.> Right
[11:37:00] <Ge0rG> winfried: regarding the consent. I think it's technically not feasible (and neither legally reasonable) to ask for explicit consent for passing data from the user to other servers/third parties, for when the user tries to communicate with those third parties
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[11:37:41] <Ge0rG> So "by using this server to communicate with third parties you agree that data will be passed to third parties" is IMHO a good trade-off
[11:37:57] <winfried> Ge0rG: agree
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[11:38:28] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the consent thing was about local MAM though
[11:38:48] <winfried> pep.: plz put that sentence of Ge0rG in the minutes, we need it ;-)
[11:39:11] <pep.> winfried, we already had something similar, but yes
[11:39:55] <Ge0rG> jonasw: re local MAM the question is interesting.
[11:40:10] <Ge0rG> my position is that the client needs to inform the user that by enabling MAM, they will enable MAM.
[11:40:19] <Ge0rG> or rather, ask the user for consent to store data on the server.
[11:40:39] <Ge0rG> I've called out clients that silently auto-enable MAM before. Without success.
[11:40:51] <lovetox> But client doesnt know server policies, so how good is that consent?
[11:41:09] <Ge0rG> lovetox: did I hear "data-forms"?
[11:41:34] <lovetox> yes good idea, but then its not only the client anymore 🙂
[11:41:51] <pep.> Ge0rG, so that's 6.1a realm?
[11:42:18] <pep.> And some more XEP (or just EULA?) required for this, as I was asking above
[11:42:33] <winfried> pep.: I would say: that is still informing and 6.1b
[11:42:49] <Ge0rG> lovetox: the server has a kind of tri-state of MAM of (undefined, enabled, disabled). The client comes and silently enables MAM. Who's at fault?
[11:43:05] <winfried> all processing is odne to deliver the service the user requested, nothing more.
[11:43:35] <lovetox> What i want to say is, it would make sense for the server to communicate the policy on enable, or a xep that lets us retrieve those
[11:43:35] <pep.> ok
[11:43:38] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure how far we can put MAM in 6.1b land
[11:44:03] <lovetox> so we can really inform the user, not just say "we now going to store data somewhere, for some unkown time, and we dont know what will happen with it"
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[11:44:39] <winfried> lovetox: correct
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[11:45:57] <pep.> ok, so what I've been asking above :P
[11:46:23] *pep. slowly filling the gaps in the minutes
[11:46:59] <winfried> Ge0rG: what is your doubt? MAM is an archiving service and the user agrees to use that for that service, I would say that is 6.1b
[11:47:21] <jonasw> winfried, but the server would still have to prove that hte user agreed to that service, right?
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[11:48:33] <Kev> jonasw: Surely that's part of the service agreement the user sigs up to?
[11:48:46] <Kev> *signs
[11:49:35] <winfried> jonasw: difficult wording there, when you decide yourself to start using a service, then you agree to the data processing that is inherent to that service
[11:49:53] <pep.> you have to know what kind of processing though
[11:50:02] <pep.> That'd have to be ack-ed before signing in
[11:50:29] <winfried> pep.: the information must be available and up to date (art 12 if I recall correctly)
[11:50:38] <pep.> Right
[11:50:57] <winfried> pep.: but for 6.1a it has to be acked on forhand, for 6.1b not
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[11:51:20] <pep.> So in the IBR processus or similar, "This is what you are signing for. [Create]"
[11:51:51] <winfried> pep.: yes
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[11:53:03] <pep.> hmm, trying to summarize all this..
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[11:56:41] <pep.> date of next?
[11:56:49] <winfried> a hairy issue is what if a client enables MAM by default? And does it make a difference if the UI of the client suggest storage or if it suggests the absence of persistence? And who is liable then?
[11:57:11] <pep.> winfried, what jonasw was asking
[11:57:22] <pep.> 20:10:05 jonasw> winfried, that was one of my original questions in the whole GDPR-in-XMPP discussion
20:10:10 jonasw> who is liable if the client didn’t properly ask?
20:10:23 jonasw> is it the client developer? or can the server operator rely on the client asking properly and blame the client if it didn’t?
[11:57:32] <winfried> pep.: translated to what we know now...
[11:59:02] <MattJ> What happens if you have a web-based consent form, but the user has some obscure browser that doesn't render the page correctly
[11:59:26] <MattJ> and maybe it has a bug that swaps the "I consent" and "I do not consent" button text
[11:59:33] <winfried> I think we can argue that if the client suggest immediate deletion but enables MAM silently the client is liable
[12:00:01] <pep.> MattJ, that's always been an issue? :x
[12:00:01] <Kev> winfried: But that the server presumably still had to say "If you enable MAM, we'll store X"?
[12:00:06] <pep.> GDPR is not changing anything here
[12:00:17] <winfried> Kev: yes it has to inform
[12:00:22] <jonasw> pep., but the analogy help with the "what if the client doesn’t do things right" question
[12:00:23] <MattJ> pep., but now the server owner is legally liable? :)
[12:01:21] <jonasw> date of next?
[12:01:28] <winfried> MattJ: about what consent form are you talking? I am right now trying to circumvent all consent forms!
[12:02:12] <winfried> Mo, Tue, Thu & Fri are possible for me
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[12:02:47] <pep.> Mon/Tue/Wed ok for me, the rest might be more difficult
[12:03:01] <winfried> Mon or Tue?
[12:03:16] <pep.> Actually.. I'll be in Karlsruhe with some other xsf people, so I can also do it from there :P
[12:03:33] <pep.> Assuming it's not *too* early (as I'll be in holidays ><)
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[12:04:37] <jonasw> Mon is not possible
[12:04:38] <jonasw> Tue would work
[12:05:03] <pep.> Tue 12:30CEST?
[12:05:10] <jonasw> wfm
[12:05:11] <pep.> I'm in CEST next week btw, all week
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[12:05:13] <jonasw> Ge0rG?
[12:05:17] <winfried> wfm
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[12:08:32] <winfried> I will have to go, won't be waiting for Ge0rG
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[12:08:39] <pep.> okay
[12:08:56] <pep.> The minutes won't appear just right now but I'll try to do that quickly
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[12:09:15] <winfried> pep.: thanks once more!
[12:09:56] *winfried bangs a gavel, hoping Ge0rG hears it and confirms tuesday
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[12:11:10] <Ge0rG> next week I'm completely unavailable
[12:11:44] <winfried> :-( is there any way we can still get your input?
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[13:18:28] <moparisthebest> thanks MattJ ! so XEP-0368 is constructed the same way (same misunderstanding of requirements section) and I copied from there so this has been a long ongoing misunderstanding :)
[13:19:46] <MattJ> Heh, so it is... never noticed :)
[13:20:21] <moparisthebest> it even got all the way to Draft that way haha
[13:20:50] <MattJ> Yeah, surprised nobody else noticed
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[13:20:59] <MattJ> It's documented here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-reqs
[13:21:07] *jonasw hides
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[13:21:43] <MattJ> The technical stuff should be in "Use Cases", as e.g. "This is how a client should connect to the server" etc. etc.
[13:22:08] <moparisthebest> I *probably* copied an existing XEP back in 2015 but I couldn't even begin to guess
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[13:23:35] <MattJ> Take a look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html#requirements for a simple example, or https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#requirements for an example that replaces an existing protocol (and discusses why)
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[13:24:28] <moparisthebest> https://github.com/xsf/xeps#new-protoxeps should mention XEP-0143 I think
[13:24:49] <moparisthebest> again I can't recall but I don't exactly remember reading it
[13:24:58] <jonasw> moparisthebest, that README is for editors, not for authors
[13:25:18] <moparisthebest> ok, then there should be a readme/section for authors :)
[13:25:38] <jonasw> right on the top it says:
> To submit a new proposal for consideration as a XEP, please read this page: https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process.html#submitting-a-xep
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[13:26:47] <moparisthebest> ah yes and then suggests the wrong way to do it
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[13:27:27] <moparisthebest> (email editors instead of pull request)
[13:27:53] <jonasw> that’s not wrong
[13:27:55] <jonasw> just old
[13:27:59] <moparisthebest> and both links https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-template.xml and https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/xsf-source-control/ is broken
[13:28:02] <jonasw> mailing the editors is still totally a fine thing to do
[13:28:14] <jonasw> moparisthebest, PRs against the website welcome
[13:29:03] <moparisthebest> I would just put the correct procedure at the top of the readme in the xeps repository
[13:29:09] <jonasw> why not both
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[13:29:16] <moparisthebest> yea and fix the website
[13:29:29] <jonasw> PRs welcome
[13:29:32] <jonasw> will be happy to review htem
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[13:59:39] <pep.> "By creating a post, you agree to Imgur's [Terms of Service] and [Privacy Policy]" What imgur.com has btw
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[14:00:37] <jonasw> wait until May 25th
[14:00:52] <jonasw> I’m still getting at least two mails per week from esrvices which have adapted their ToS/Privacy stuff
[14:01:02] <jonasw> and imgur didn’t do that yet
[14:01:10] <jonasw> so that may still be a WIP
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[14:01:59] <pep.> yeah
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[14:02:14] <pep.> I'm also getting spammed by policy updates
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[14:12:17] <Ge0rG> There is an easy solution to the GDPR now! https://gdpr-shield.io/
[14:12:56] <moparisthebest> ha I love it
[14:13:47] <Ge0rG> > We provide you with a JavaScript snippet that you'll paste into your site's existing HTML code
> We'll check every user that visits your site and block access to users from the EU. This happens in the background and doesn't affect your site's speed for non-EU users

[14:13:51] <Ge0rG> This!
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[14:15:12] <MattJ> <stream:stream><script...
[14:15:16] <moparisthebest> Or just put a "EU citizens not allowed" disclaimer in your TOS, that's what I did in the motd of my IRC server for German citizens
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[14:16:14] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I'd say that doesn't qualify
[14:16:31] <moparisthebest> Why not?
[14:17:09] <moparisthebest> How could I be liable if you illegally use my service in violation of my terms?
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[14:17:38] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: I'd say you need to explicitly block the EU IPs
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[14:18:48] <moparisthebest> Why?
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[14:23:06] <Wiktor> Does it really apply to moparisthebest's IRC server? I guess he doesn't collect any personal info there.
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[14:24:07] <moparisthebest> I think similar should work everywhere even if you do collect PII
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[14:25:45] <Wiktor> Yeah but irc doesn't need your personal data and by design it's a public forum.
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[14:26:58] <jonasw> but most nickservs operate using email adrseses
[14:27:01] <jonasw> which are PII
[14:27:13] <Ge0rG> And IPs. You need those against spambots!
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[14:30:10] <Wiktor> A similar thread was recently here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16661323
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[14:41:11] <Wiktor> > Provided your company doesn't specifically target its services at individuals in the EU, it is not subject to the rules of the GDPR.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/application-regulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en
[14:41:41] <moparisthebest> interesting
[14:41:45] <Wiktor> I think a ToS like moparisthebest would strongly signal it does not target EU.
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[14:43:46] <Ge0rG> Wiktor: I think that "specifically targeting" are weasel words that need to be checked by courts.
[14:44:23] <Wiktor> Sure, I'm not your lawyer, but I wouldn't panic if I was moparisthebest :)
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[14:44:45] <Ge0rG> Why, you can't panic often enough.
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[14:46:32] <moparisthebest> EU citizens are forbidden from using this IRC server
- This is specified so the GDPR does not apply:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/application-regulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en

[14:46:41] <moparisthebest> added that to my motd, done and done, GDPR is easy!
[14:48:00] <MattJ> I really don't think it works like that :)
[14:49:01] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I might have said the same thing before, without convincing anybody.
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[14:53:19] <moparisthebest> no one is going to sue me for that anyway, but if they do, I think 'they were forbidden from using my server' is a pretty strong argument
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[14:54:26] <moparisthebest> also 'go *&@! yourself I'm not flying to the EU to appear in court' is pretty good too
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[15:05:38] <pep.> re gdpr-shield, I was going to ask what if I disable JS, but in that case I probably won't have access to the website anyway :)
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[15:10:36] <Ge0rG> pep.: websites on .io require JS, didn't you know?
[15:10:46] <pep.> yeah I know
[15:11:02] <pep.> That's why I corrected myself
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[15:14:42] <Wiktor> > This won't apply to every U.S. business — just the ones that are knowingly, and actively, conducting business in the EU. In this vein, EU courts have the discretionary ability to determine if a U.S. company was purposely collecting EU resident data and subverting GDPR compliance. So, in some cases, the inadvertent collection of personal data will be forgiven if it is found to have been occasional and "unlikely to result in a risk to the rights and freedoms of natural persons."
Source: https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2007530-how-the-eu-can-fine-us-companies-for-violating-gdpr
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[18:07:06] <moparisthebest> does anyone know if any servers implement bcc from here? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0033.html#addr-type
[18:08:00] <Zash> https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/f66a08f208ad/mod_addressing/mod_addressing.lua#l19
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[18:11:45] <moparisthebest> thanks
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