Monday, May 14, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:29:01] <jonasw> marmistrz, well, the XSF can’t and won’t give you legal advice on that matter
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[07:29:18] <jonasw> we will work on a guideline of things you should definitely look into, and a few non-legal opinions on things
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[07:29:23] <jonasw> but that’s in no way legal advice
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[11:27:18] <jonasw> Ge0rG, any news on your schedule w.r.t. GDPR meeting?
[11:27:22] <jonasw> (tomorrow, 12:30 CEST)
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[11:29:22] <Ge0rG> Can't do tomorrow 12:30 (lunch break)
[11:29:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, winfried, pep., what would work for you instead?
[11:31:52] <pep.> any, not later on friday as usual
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[11:32:19] <Ge0rG> I've got some time after the 25th.
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[11:32:25] <Ge0rG> Sorry, not funny.
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[11:35:24] <winfried> Ge0rG: any way we can keep you involved while not attending the meetings, or is your schedule too packed for that too?
[11:35:41] <winfried> (BTW, I do like the 25th pun)
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[11:39:00] <Ge0rG> winfried: my problem is that I'm fully booked on a project that just began today, so I need to be available on short notice. I can't schedule anything for the next days, except Friday and *maybe* Thursday.
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[11:41:21] <winfried> jonasw pep. Ge0rG I propose we will meet tomorrow without Ge0rG and friday in full? (both 12:30 CEST)
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[11:41:49] <Ge0rG> It might work for me at 11:30 or 13:30 tomorrow, but I can't say for sure.
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[11:42:34] <winfried> both 11:30 and 13:00 tomorrow wfm
[11:43:17] <Ge0rG> But please don't nail me on either.
[11:43:25] <Ge0rG> Just saying that it won't work at 1230 for sure.
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[11:43:39] <winfried> Ge0rG: I understand, won't nail you for it
[11:43:51] <jonasw> winfried, pep., I’m fully available except Thursday and late Friday
[11:43:54] <Ge0rG> Except maybe with NIN.
[11:43:56] <jonasw> so 1130 CEST would workforme tomorrow
[11:44:04] <jonasw> or 1330 CEST, I think I’d prefer the latter slightly
[11:44:31] <Ge0rG> Or is it NIИ?
[11:45:11] <winfried> Ge0rG: NIИ, that is a youth memory!
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[11:45:53] <winfried> jonasw: would friday 1330 CEST work for you or is that to late?
[11:46:19] <jonasw> winfried, that would work
[11:47:33] <winfried> jonasw: oops, meant to ask 12:30 on friday , but 13:30 would work for me too ;-)
[11:48:23] <jonasw> winfried, 1330 works better than 1230 on friday, I think :)
[11:50:18] <winfried> pep.: would tomorrow at 13:30 CEST AND friday at 13:30 fit you? Ge0rG may then attend tomorrow and friday for sure (correct Ge0rG ?)
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[11:52:30] <Ge0rG> winfried: besides of the music, I also loved the Quake1 ammunition...
[11:52:55] <Ge0rG> winfried: I can't promise it 100% yet, sorry.
[11:53:21] <winfried> Ge0rG: sorry, I am from the wulfenstein era ;-)
[11:53:33] <Ge0rG> winfried: "Mein Leben!"
[11:53:46] <jonasw> my new portable digital audio player unfortunately cannot run doom anymore
[11:53:55] <jonasw> not enough colors (1 bit color depth)
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[11:54:36] <Ge0rG> https://op-co.de/vr3/files/doom.gif - I had doom running on my first Linux PDA.
[11:54:52] <jonasw> that’s more than one bit ;-)
[11:54:53] <Ge0rG> Last modified 2004-01-31 18:48. Wow, that's less than I thought it'd be.
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[11:55:50] <jonasw> (granted, people *did* run doom on black/white LCD TI Voyage 200 calculators by tricking the display into displaying 2 bit grayscale or something)
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[12:26:10] <edhelas> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17063761
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[12:28:19] <winfried> edhelas: there we go again...
[12:28:55] <Zash> ZZzzz...
[12:29:15] <edhelas> > That said, I think that main problem with Jabber is lack of a single entity pushing it. So it'll naturally lose fight against corporation with billion-dollar marketing budgets. With Matrix it might be better.
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[12:29:17] <edhelas> :D
[12:29:39] <edhelas> let's built a decentralized network, but handled by a single entity :-°
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[12:45:01] <daniel> Wait the performance of the matrix server is so bad that had to disable presence?
[12:45:08] <Ge0rG> Where can I find old versions of XEP-0045 (which define the GC1 behavior)
[12:45:08] <daniel> Is this for real 😂
[12:45:12] <Wiktor> maybe that's just me but I think they have a point, Arathorn is very active both on social media, and getting publicity (French government case), they operate like a corporation but Matrix is still federated (anyone can run the instance etc.)
[12:45:24] <goffi> catching a bit conversation on standard@ after a while, for the record I'm strongly willing/needing a deletion mechanism for file sharing (I'm not using HTTP upload, but would be nice to make it generic enough so it can be used by HTTP upload). I was planing to use ad-hoc commands for that, and propose a XEP after testing on the field.
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[12:48:17] <Zash> What came first, Jabber Inc. or the JSF?
[12:48:17] <Ge0rG> https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ only goes back to 1.16 :(
[12:48:32] <edhelas> daniel you don't have performance problems anymore if you remove the heavy features
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[12:53:27] <daniel> I mean honestly I want to like matrix. And I actually hope they will succeed. They do some (non technical) things a lot better than the jabber community or the xsf
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[12:53:56] <daniel> But from all I hear their stack is just polished shit just as xmpp is
[12:53:57] <Zash> Marketing?
[12:54:31] <Zash> It'd be nice if they had learned from XMPP, but from what I can see, they're following the exact same path.
[12:54:55] <daniel> Yeah Marketing fundraising to employ full time people. Their way of extending the standard that you basically have to submit a PR for the spec, the implementation in the server and the client at the same time
[12:56:00] <Zash> I'm sure Jabber was just as cool back when there was one client, one server, transports were all the rage and Jabber Inc. wasn't bought by Cisco yet.
[12:56:45] <Zash> Just wait until there are more than one of independently developed servers and clients, it'll be exactly the same as XMPP.
[12:57:41] <daniel> Rumor has that they are actively discouraging new server implementations
[12:58:11] <goffi> Zash: that's one of the main issue I have with matrix (with their initial aggressivity with XMPP), it's all controlled by one company and a few people.
[12:58:24] <Zash> Wasn't the excuse for the reference server being slow "but we're rewriting it in rust!!!"
[12:58:56] <Holger> Go!
[12:59:11] <Zash> Samesame
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[12:59:50] <Holger> Yeah their server story looks like a desaster.
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[13:00:55] <Zash> But otoh, Jabber was started as an open source project, not as/by a company with a marketing budget.
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[13:01:40] <Zash> > List of acquisitions by Cisco Systems (redirect from Jabber, Inc.)
Heh
[13:02:13] <edhelas> 2019, Cisco is buying Matrix.inc
[13:04:02] <Zash> What about going through the IETF and having a (Software|Standards) Foundation?
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[13:09:48] <daniel> I mean in a way it's interesting to see how their approach pans out in the next 5-10 years
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[13:10:30] <daniel> If it's still a somewhat open standard in 10 years that you could federate with their approach might have been proven more effective
[13:11:26] <daniel> I don't think there is anything inherently bad with a single company providing the reference implementation. As long as you always have the *option* of forking while still federation
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[13:11:35] <daniel> *federating
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[13:16:33] <winfried> I think the real problem is the difference between an open chat application like Matrix and an ecosystem like XMPP. Getting started is *much* harder in the ecosystem, but in the long run you want an ecosystem not just one implementation.
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[13:17:36] <Zash> winfried: Doesn't that depend somewhat on who "you" are, and what their goals are?
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[13:20:44] <Andrew Nenakhov> Matrix uniformity comes from it's relative obscurity. Once it will have multiple implementations, it'll be absolutely same as XMPP.
[13:21:09] <moparisthebest> except without the specs/documentation ?
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[13:21:37] <Wiktor> moparisthebest: you mean that https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ ?
[13:21:42] <Andrew Nenakhov> And of course they are less obsessed with this crypto bullshit
[13:22:00] <daniel> Are they?
[13:22:02] <moparisthebest> didn't they develop OLM themselves?
[13:22:04] <winfried> Zash: don't think so, when maintaining a system for a longer time then 5-7 years, you want an ecosystem, not just one application. Up to that point funding, acquiring technology/knowledge etc is easier when you use a monolithic code base. Once you are up to your first big overhaul, you get your regrets. No matter who you are and what your goal is....
[13:22:31] <pep.> What about some projects applying for MOSS funding
[13:22:44] <pep.> Xmpp projects
[13:23:02] <Zash> winfried: I mean like, a company wanting ultimate control, do they want an ecosystem? Or like, Signal.
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[13:26:36] <winfried> Zash: If I want ultimate control, I can still use the XMPP ecosystem as codebase. In matter of fact, I expect most XMPP deployments are exactly like that!
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[13:30:20] <MattJ> .
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[13:30:26] <MattJ> Is it me or is the xmpp.org website slow?
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[13:31:19] <jonasw> I think it might be you
[13:31:25] <Zash> 1.78s
[13:31:26] <jonasw> loads fine here
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[13:32:53] <Zash> MattJ: You've just gotten spoiled by how blazing fast the new prosody.im site is ;)
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[13:35:36] <Link Mauve> About 1.8s here for prosody.im’s home page. :p
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[13:36:39] <MattJ> Hmm, the link to compliance suites on https://xmpp.org/extensions/ is outdated
[13:36:57] <MattJ> Links to XEP-0375 instead of XEP-0387
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[13:37:35] <jonasw> MattJ, PRs welcome!
[13:37:41] <MattJ> I'm looking for the page
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[13:38:13] <jonasw> MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/content/pages/extensions.md
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[13:38:44] <MattJ> PR in
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[13:41:09] <Ge0rG> So, I'm still looking for JEP-0045, version 0.4
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[13:41:19] <Zash> archive.org?
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[13:41:41] <Ge0rG> And no, the git log doesn't go back *this* far.
[13:41:52] <Ge0rG> Zash: do you know the URL?
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[13:42:29] <Zash> duno
[13:42:33] <Zash> explore
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[13:44:49] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure why but "jabber groupchat history" leads to completely unrelated results.
[13:46:20] <Zash> https://web.archive.org/web/20021004130423/http://www.jabber.org:80/jeps/jep-0045.html
[13:46:26] <Zash> That seems to be as far back as it goes
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[13:46:54] <Ge0rG> Zash: you are awesome, thanks!
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[13:47:15] <Zash> I'm sure I've seen the "Groupchat 1.0" protocol somewhere too, but where?
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[13:49:18] <Zash> Seems /attic didn't exist back then
[13:49:24] <MattJ> Ge0rG, have you seen https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001485.html ?
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[13:50:01] <MattJ> (not entirely sure what your current mission is, but seems like it's related...)
[13:50:10] <Neustradamus> MattJ: There are tickets here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
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[13:50:46] <Zash> Neustradamus: Too slow: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/436
[13:50:59] <Neustradamus> -> for https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/398
[13:51:36] <Neustradamus> SamWhited: ^^
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[13:55:06] <Neustradamus> Any news for the XEP diff tool? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412
[13:55:49] <Zash> Ge0rG: Hmm https://web.archive.org/web/20000617033408/http://docs.jabber.org:80/
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[13:56:02] <Ge0rG> MattJ: thanks, that's another useful pointer
[13:56:30] <MattJ> In particular this message from that thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001499.html
[13:56:43] <MattJ> which I'm sure you'll print, stick to the wall and throw darts at
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[13:57:17] <jonasw> ohmygot mcversion="2"
[13:57:19] <Zash> https://web.archive.org/web/20000823073740/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/chgc.html Well what have we here
[13:57:24] <jonasw> ohmygod mcversion="2"
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[13:58:04] <MattJ> !praise Zash
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[13:58:15] <Neustradamus> I see that the redirection of docs.jabber.org is missing
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[14:01:37] <Zash> https://web.archive.org/web/20000919185743/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/x273.html examples!
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[14:01:42] <Zash> The real spec!
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[14:06:27] <edhelas> so simple
[14:07:27] <Zash> Ge0rG: Looks like the origin of the direct invite namespace https://web.archive.org/web/20020214222508/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/conferencing.html
[14:09:03] <jonasw> <message type="groupchat" from="act3@gc.denmark">
<body>Hamlet has arrived.</body>
</message>
[14:09:04] <jonasw> interesting
[14:09:10] <jonasw> a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)
[14:09:16] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yeah.
[14:09:39] <Zash> <iq type='get' to='roomname@server'>
<enter xmlns='jabber:iq:conference'/>
</iq>
[14:09:56] <edhelas> jonasw that would be nice indeed, introducing each participant by all his familly name, relations and positions
[14:10:33] <jonasw> > get
> enter
[14:11:33] <MattJ> jonasw, that's why most clients still support those messages (and it's handy)
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[14:12:18] <jonasw> "still"
[14:12:24] <MattJ> Heh
[14:12:25] <jonasw> for new clients it isn’t that obvious ;-)
[14:12:34] <jonasw> *hint hint*
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[14:13:40] <Kev> M-Link certainly sends messages from the room's bare JID.
[14:13:48] <Ge0rG> Messages from a MUC bare JID are often used for CAPTCHAs and other entrance impediments.
[14:13:56] <Kev> So-called "System messages". I hadn't realised those were folklore at this point.
[14:14:30] <Zash> Ge0rG: https://web.archive.org/web/20020207105531/http://www.pipetree.com:80/jabber/gc.html
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[14:16:52] <Zash> How many groupchat protocols are there even?
[14:17:08] <Zash> 3 or 4 by 2002?
[14:17:43] <Kev> I think it was three wasn't it? gc, iq:gc and MUC.
[14:17:48] <Kev> But maybe I missed one.
[14:18:24] <Zash> "conferencing"?
[14:18:35] <Zash> Or is that what became MUC?
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[14:21:47] <Ge0rG> Zash, MattJ: thanks very much for your archeological support. Its result should hit standards@ any minute now.
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[14:23:35] <jonasw> oha
[14:23:58] <jonasw> this will help skip the time waiting for the raspberry pi to update
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[14:24:07] <jonasw> > 33.7 kB/s 9min 42s
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[14:24:12] <Ge0rG> I can't see it yet.
[14:24:22] <jonasw> me neither
[14:24:26] <jonasw> but looking forward to it
[14:25:07] <Ge0rG> May 14 16:21:24 bender postfix/smtp[9754]: EC5C814540E1: to=<standards@xmpp.org>, relay=atlas.jabber.org[208.68.163.215]:25, delay=3.1, delays=0.28/0.04/2.3/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as C40468FC)
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[14:25:21] <Ge0rG> ,oO( Atlas Shrugged )
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[14:25:31] *Zash shrug
[14:26:05] <Zash> https://web.archive.org/web/20020602221836/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/sxpm.html Hah, neat
[14:26:50] <jonasw> Ge0rG, maybe it’s running an apt update on a raspberry pi and waits for the result before forwarding to introduce some random mixing delay
[14:27:30] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that would be some interesting interdependency.
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[14:40:45] <Link Mauve> “16:09:10 jonasw> a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)”, mu-conference used to do that if some entity joined with a GC1.0 join.
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[15:04:29] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, ooh, the line above the last participant was that null participant, not a ncurses bug!
[15:04:36] <Link Mauve> Thanks for making me notice that.
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[15:09:09] <pep.> Too many bugs..
[15:09:53] <Zash> 99 bugs in the code, take one down, patch it around, 103 bugs in the code
[15:10:09] <pep.> Zash: how is potato farming going
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[15:10:45] <daniel> Link Mauve: haven't you been at the meeting where we discussed doing the avater thing?
[15:11:02] <pep.> Congress?
[15:11:16] <pep.> At*
[15:11:30] <daniel> Yes
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[15:12:35] <Zash> pep.:
[15:13:03] <daniel> Zash:
[15:15:04] <pep.> daniel:
[15:16:11] <Link Mauve> daniel, I wasn’t expecting that to break.
[15:16:41] <Link Mauve> I was wrong.
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[16:48:06] <Ge0rG> Nasal Demons!
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[17:03:20] <Alex> memberbot is online for our Q2-2018 voting
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[19:06:09] <Ge0rG> So, I want to use XMPP for my IoT. Who is the right person to give implementation advice?
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[19:16:44] <jonasw> depends on what IoT means
[19:16:54] <jonasw> I’m doing IoT-ish things with XMPP
[19:17:12] <Zash> Means whatever you want it to mean
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[19:34:32] <Ge0rG> I want to control multiple LED lighting controllers, get them automatically discovered by OpenHab, and just have to give them names.
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[21:19:02] <MattJ> Ge0rG, the LED lighting controllers... are based on what?
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[21:19:59] <MattJ> Mine hang off an Arduino, and you won't be XMPP'ing from those (unless you use one of the fancier models with Linux on)
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[21:39:46] <Ge0rG> MattJ: esp8266
[21:40:31] <MattJ> No sensible XMPPing on that either, although it runs Lua and I considered some very hacked port of a minimal subset of Prosody...
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[21:41:47] <MattJ> Once you factor into account that JIDs can be multiple KBs, there's no chance of a compliant implementation
[21:42:37] <Zash> Prosody already doesn't normally work with that.
[21:43:43] <MattJ> True :)
[21:44:19] <Zash> Depending on who has the 3KB JID
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[21:44:52] <MattJ> Ge0rG, in my case most things happen over MQTT, and I bridge to that from XMPP/whatever needs to. It's the simplest option
[21:45:04] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm not going to use the Lua runtime, and I don't need 3KB JIDs on my LAN
[21:45:44] <MattJ> Then you can probably manage some form of XMPP, if you're willing to cut corners
[21:46:11] <Link Mauve> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#example-216 shouldn’t this be in a pubsub#owner rather than in a pubsub namespace?
[21:46:17] <MattJ> I mean, jonasw should be able to give you some tips for XMPP in constrained environments :)
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[23:25:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:27:10] *** dwd has joined the room
[23:27:38] *** Guus has left the room
[23:27:38] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:30:06] *** UsL has left the room
[23:30:17] *** alexis has left the room
[23:30:20] *** alexis has joined the room
[23:32:45] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:34:15] *** dwd has left the room
[23:35:19] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[23:38:33] *** Guus has left the room
[23:48:46] *** rtq3 has left the room
[23:50:38] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[23:50:41] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:54:50] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[23:55:13] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[23:56:06] *** nyco has left the room
[23:56:27] *** nyco has joined the room