XSF Discussion - 2018-05-18


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  113. lovetox we have a list in gajim source with servers
  114. lovetox its says that everyone that wants to be added should follow the instructions
  115. lovetox on http://xmpp.org/services/register.shtml
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  117. lovetox this thing seems not to exist anymore, was there a list of servers somewhere on xmpp.org where people could add their server?
  118. lovetox if yes, where is it now
  119. jonasw I think that has moved to xmpp.net
  120. lovetox oh lol right on the front page
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  124. lovetox pitty its not recorded if the server support IBR or not
  125. jonasw indeed
  126. jonasw you might wanna filter for features anyways
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  133. Ge0rG Is https://xmpp.net/register.php still the right method?
  134. jonasw except that nobody maintains the list
  135. jonasw I don’t have the permissions, and I think it’s possible that nobody knows how
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  142. Ge0rG stpeter does?
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  251. jonasw lovetox, 06:15:19 jonasw> fugata, didn‘t you start to compile a list of IBR-supporting servers with good XEP support? 08:11:04 fugata> I did 08:12:19 fugata> jonasw: I also created uptime accounts for them and sent the credentials to Daniel; they're all on status.conversations.im now IIRC 08:21:22 fugata> jonasw: http://paste.debian.net/1025196/
  252. daniel The compliance tester will also start checking for ibr but with the recommendation to just use ibr oob redirection
  253. Zash Is that a recommendation?
  254. daniel Zash: IMHO yes. Because it's easier to to spam protection
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  256. Zash But at what cost!
  257. Zash Worse UX and you make Ge0rG sad.
  258. daniel The thing is with a 'powerful tool' you can't just test for ibr. That will force ops to blindly enable ibr and open the gates for spam. So the compliance tester will probably recommend oob. But if you want to diverge from that that's fine as well
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  261. jonasw daniel, maybe it’s better to then just not test for IBR
  262. jonasw or make the data only available on request, but not on the overview
  263. daniel jonasw: but it's also important to have that information so people like lovetox can compile their list
  264. jonasw like a JSON file
  265. jonasw but not in the HTML table
  266. jonasw to prevent "need to have it all green!!!" people from blindly enabling IBR
  267. Zash that.
  268. Zash So much that.
  269. jonasw a JSON file would also be useful to automatically fetch on client installation/startup *cough*
  270. daniel Yeah that's why I'm not blindly enabling the test. Maybe we can just exclude it from the ranking or something
  271. jonasw I’d prefer excluding it from the table and having a hidden-ish JSON file with that data included.
  272. daniel And no a json file is probably not a good idea. Because people who compile lists should take other factors into account as well
  273. lovetox json would be nice
  274. lovetox i would not fetch it, but would pull it into the source from time to time
  275. daniel Like uptime as provided by the status thing and do they have a privecy statement
  276. jonasw ideally, we can soon-ish test for privacy statements automatedly (ping pep.)
  277. daniel Or 'is it run on a raspie in somebody's basement'
  278. pep. Ideally
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  280. lovetox hm maybe we could pull it automatically but only if the user starts account wizard
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  282. pep. I'd rather not pull it automatically, but update the client every so often
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  285. daniel pep.: what do you test for?
  286. daniel For the privacy statement
  287. pep. I assume jonasw is talking about EULA
  288. jonasw pep., yes, I am
  289. jonasw daniel, a server would expose a stream feature and a pre-auth way to query key parts of the privacy statement as well as an URL to the full text
  290. jonasw so that clients can show that in-band when registering
  291. jonasw pep., BTW, what is blocking the work on the XEP?
  292. jonasw anything I can help with?
  293. pep. Time, and knowledge
  294. jonasw what knowledge?
  295. pep. Definitely
  296. pep. Xmpp in general, what to use and how, why
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  298. jonasw okay, so, maybe we can split the work here
  299. jonasw you could write up what the thing should do, and I fill in the protocol gaps
  300. pep. Ok
  301. jonasw alternatively, I can advise you on how the protocol could look, whatever works for you
  302. pep. I'll try to come up with a list of requirements
  303. jonasw that’d be great
  304. jonasw I’d love it if we could make it til next council meeting
  305. jonasw if we manage to get the text ready by monday, I could give a draft impl a shot in prosody
  306. jonasw and aioxmpp
  307. jonasw (since aioxmpp can’t do pre-auth IQs yet, that’ll be the more tricky part :))
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  340. Ge0rG For clients that don't support IBR data-forms / email, we obviously need a multi-state enum for what kind of IBR is supported!
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  359. jonasw what do you folks (especially Ge0rG) think of sending presence type="unavailable" or "error" when receiving groupchat messages from MUCs a client doesn’t know it is joined to?
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  363. Yagiza Hello!
  364. Ge0rG jonasw: what's wrong with message/error?
  365. jonasw Ge0rG, does that kick one from a MUC reliably?
  366. Yagiza Are there clients, with XEP-0371( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0371.html ) implemented?
  367. jonasw Ge0rG, also, if we lost sync with the server, we *probably* were joined formerly, so leaving with an (potentially) confusing error shows intent more clearly...?
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  374. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure there are many painful corner cases we've not thought about ye
  375. Ge0rG +t
  376. jonasw okay, so just return a message error?
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  378. Ge0rG jonasw: we are talking about to=full, not to=bare, right?
  379. jonasw wha?
  380. jonasw which to?
  381. jonasw that of the inbound groupchat message?
  382. Ge0rG yes
  383. jonasw sure, full jid
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  385. Ge0rG because there is spam with type=groupchat to=bare
  386. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  387. Ge0rG and I don't want to leak presence to spammers
  388. Ge0rG jonasw: so when does a client know it's not joined to a MUC but still receives groupchat messages from there?
  389. Ge0rG right after a reconnect?
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  391. jonasw Ge0rG, I’d also listen for <x/> ...
  392. jonasw but good point
  393. jonasw it might leak presence :(
  394. jonasw Ge0rG, I was thinking of a "leave the MUC operation" getting lost in an s2s hiccup
  395. Ge0rG jonasw: how often do you leave MUCs?
  396. jonasw does that matter?
  397. Ge0rG jonasw: imagine the race condition between leaving a MUC and receiving messages, causing to leave the MUC again
  398. jonasw uh
  399. jonasw that race is a good point
  400. jonasw but!
  401. Ge0rG jonasw: and yes, it does matter.
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  403. jonasw don’t I receive a presence ACKing the leave?
  404. Ge0rG jonasw: how does that change anything?
  405. Ge0rG jonasw: are you going to put a timeout handler on the leave-presence?
  406. Ge0rG OMG, leaving the MUC timed out! I need to ... ?
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  408. Ge0rG ... </stream:stream>
  409. jonasw ew
  410. jonasw yeah
  411. jonasw so closing that as wontfix
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  431. Link Mauve Btw, at https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ it might be useful to add a few notes about each server, just it being “popular” doesn’t mean people should use it blindly.
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  434. Link Mauve A few days ago someone started using xmpp.jp because it was the first one in this list, only to end up with 500ms of lag whenever they typed something in a MUC hosted in Europe.
  435. Ge0rG Link Mauve: blasphemy!
  436. pep. Link Mauve: 230 here :p
  437. Link Mauve The only solution I could give them was to create an account elsewhere, with the very nice porting ability we all know…
  438. Ge0rG Our Holy Neutrality Rules forbid any kind of Provider Bias.
  439. Link Mauve Ge0rG, ping goes two ways. :p
  440. daniel Why is the delay important?
  441. Ge0rG This is why we recommend Pidgin.
  442. Ge0rG daniel: in MUCs it is.
  443. Zash Who picked that list?
  444. Ge0rG I'm sure it's approved by Board.
  445. Link Mauve Actually it was even him (France) → xmpp.jp (Japan) → MUC (France) → xmpp.jp (Japan) → him (France).
  446. daniel Ge0rG: I got that we are talking about muc. But why is delay relevant?
  447. Link Mauve daniel, some clients don’t display messages instantly.
  448. Ge0rG daniel: because you see the delay between writing your message and its delivery
  449. Ge0rG Link Mauve: some clients suck.
  450. Link Mauve Ge0rG, indeed.
  451. pep. daniel: in this case I would argue it's not the delay. xmpp.jp is not really well know for its admin capabilities either (spam, not replying yo querier etc.)
  452. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I’d even say most*. :p
  453. pep. Link Mauve: ^
  454. pep. queries*
  455. daniel I mean on mobile you can easily have those kinds of delays as well
  456. Link Mauve pep., they replied once after I made the effort of writing in Japanese (and you helped me)!
  457. daniel Never bothered me
  458. Ge0rG daniel: "Never bothered me" is not a very good way to handle user problems.
  459. Zash "Wontfix: Works for me"
  460. Ge0rG is in full rant mode today.
  461. daniel Why is it a problem that other people read your messages 500ms after you typed them?
  462. Zash Patch (cables) welcome
  463. Link Mauve daniel, anyway, that was only an option, being known for hosting and protecting spammers, having no real good policy privacy, being hosted in a country downright hostile to its citizens, etc. could be other reasons for not using a server.
  464. Zash daniel: It gets weird if you see your own messages that long after you sent them
  465. daniel Zash: that I can get on board with. Very weird indeed
  466. daniel But fix your client
  467. Ge0rG I'm used to this latency from my own travel. And it sucks.
  468. Ge0rG daniel: fixing the client slightly reduces the weirdness.
  469. Ge0rG daniel: imagine mod_pastebin kicking in.
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  471. Zash Having something to indicate 'in flight' is probably fine, then updating it with whatever the MUC sends back
  472. Zash And adding the little green tick
  473. Ge0rG $ git blame ./content/pages/getting-started/_index.md|grep Pidgin 195fadcc content/pages/uses/getting-started.md (Guus der Kinderen 2017-01-17 12:36:13 +0100 23) * [Pidgin](http://pidgin.im/) (OS X, Windows & Linux)
  474. Ge0rG there it is.
  475. Link Mauve Or imagine participating in a fast-paced discussion and always getting your messages reordered.
  476. Zash Guus! What do you have to say for yourself?
  477. daniel Oh I should probably install mod_pastebin and find a nice solution for that
  478. Ge0rG Zash: that's how yaxim does it.
  479. daniel But that's probably only a couple of weird servers using that
  480. Ge0rG Zash: except for the well documented PITA of matching MUC reflections.
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  482. Guus THAT WAS MY EVIL TWIN!
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  484. Guus (I have no clue what that is, by the way)
  485. Ge0rG Guus: Pidgin in https://xmpp.org/getting-started/
  486. Ge0rG Guus: it's all your fault!
  487. Link Mauve daniel, a possible other use is biboumi splitting messages if they would lead to IRC messages bigger than 512 bytes.
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  489. Guus nono, my evil twin's fault, as I already explained.
  490. Zash Or containing newlines
  491. Ge0rG Link Mauve: is biboumi honoring the message ID in that case already?
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  493. daniel i really wish biboumi would hide the splitting from the user
  494. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I don’t remember the resolution of that issue.
  495. Ge0rG Guus: it's your fault to allowing your evil twin access to your githubs
  496. Ge0rG daniel: please no.
  497. Guus He's not allowed, but does so anyway! that's the 'evil' in 'evil twin'.
  498. Zash Guus: From my perspective, the JID..i... is evil..
  499. Ge0rG daniel: next thing would be to join incoming messages from the same sender?
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  501. daniel is there any indication in irc that a message was split?
  502. Link Mauve daniel, exposing a different view from the rest of the participants, and then wondering why they reacted some way (generally kicking you) to your huge paste or multi-lines message, is not really better.
  503. Ge0rG daniel: no. it's just truncated
  504. Link Mauve daniel, no, IRC doesn’t split messages, the client (here biboumi) is expected to.
  505. Guus Ge0rG, feel free to fix 🙂
  506. Zash Nice UX. Bridges. Pick one.
  507. Guus wanders off, back to work
  508. Ge0rG Guus: Board has approved Pidgin. I'm out of that game now.
  509. Link Mauve Zash, exactly.
  510. Guus approve != need to be on getting started page
  511. Ge0rG If you want to see the world (of XMPP) burn, you are free to do so.
  512. Guus I explicitly created that page with the intent that it would be made better by others.
  513. daniel anyway i usually don't buy the 'but it doesn't work on my transports' argument
  514. daniel transports suck. the end
  515. daniel maybe the irc transport should expose the limit and have the xmpp client split it
  516. Ge0rG PLEASE NO!
  517. Zash There are errors for that, no?
  518. Zash MTU discovery!
  519. Ge0rG I hope you are cynical now.
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  526. daniel yeah i'm not really sure how to handle the irc situation besides dumbing xmpp down to the irc levels
  527. Zash daniel: that's basically what you need to do
  528. Zash otherwise the differences are going to hurt you
  529. daniel in which case you don't need xmpp in the first place but just use irc
  530. Ge0rG What's wrong with how it is now?
  531. Ge0rG Why are you trying to fix an imaginary problem?
  532. Dave Cridland has left
  533. Zash And why write for OS/2 when you can write for Windows and it works on both!
  534. Zash Transports are tricky
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  554. pep. gdpr meeting in 10
  555. jonasw .
  556. Ge0rG I'm available until 1400 CEST
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  560. winfried .
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  564. winfried GDPR meeting
  565. pep. start?
  566. pep. :)
  567. winfried bangs a gavel
  568. jonasw .
  569. winfried I updated the wiki, though not to the extend I wish to.
  570. winfried most important addition, for everybody to take a look at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR#Roles_and_responsibilities
  571. pep. Thanks
  572. jonasw reads
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  575. winfried I also checked in my bible the point I have been making about export only necessarily under 6.1a, not under 6.1b: I was incorrect, 6.1b is also included, so we have to provide an export facility
  576. jonasw if technically feasible, right?(
  577. pep. winfried, "Data Processor: can be several, e.g. the internet hoster of the XMPP server operator", not sure I get this
  578. pep. Well,
  579. pep. I would have thought, for c2s, data processor is the controller, and for s2s, depends
  580. pep. Not sure what the ISP has to do here
  581. winfried Well, I host an XMPP server at my provider
  582. marmistrz has left
  583. winfried then I am controller: I decide what and how
  584. winfried But I rent a rig at my ISP, so my ISP is responsible for a part of the processing
  585. winfried (doing it)
  586. winfried NB: this is the classical example of a controller-processor relation.
  587. pep. Right, can we also maybe add an example on this line that's more xmpp-related. alongside the ISP
  588. jonasw do we have to disclose processors?
  589. winfried jonasw: yes
  590. jonasw pep., using google/android push stuff would be a processor relationship.
  591. jonasw (I think)
  592. pep. Roster management component?
  593. pep. Or is it a third-party?
  594. jonasw first, it’s a piece of software
  595. jonasw the question is under whose control it runs
  596. jonasw if you run it on another machine you (as the server operator) control, it’s still under your control
  597. pep. Say it's not the same person as the xmpp server admin
  598. jonasw and thus not a processor
  599. jonasw in that case, processor would probably be appropriate?
  600. pep. Well, you can be both controller and processor
  601. Ge0rG has left
  602. Ge0rG jonasw [13:38]: > do we have to disclose processors? Isn't the small business exception relevant here?
  603. pep. If you do everything yourself you'd be both
  604. jonasw Ge0rG, I don’t know, is it and where is that exception defined?
  605. pep. art. 30
  606. pep. 30.5
  607. jonasw (I am still not convinced that we’re not under 9.1 by the way)
  608. forensic58 has joined
  609. jonasw (at least with storage…)
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  612. winfried Ge0rG: 30.5 is only for incidental processing, not structural
  613. winfried And if it is your core business, I guess it is structural
  614. jonasw yeah
  615. Ge0rG processing of personal data isn't core business for an xmpp server
  616. jonasw then what is?
  617. jonasw (considering that storage is subset of processing)
  618. winfried Back to the controller-processor story: roster management is third party, because a controller-processor relation always is a contractual one
  619. Ge0rG Message delivery?
  620. winfried Ge0rG: Message delivery is also processing of personal data
  621. jonasw winfried, so what about google cloud push?
  622. pep. is external roster management something the user requests or something the operators sets up?
  623. jonasw would that, too, be third party? because there is no contract?
  624. winfried jonasw: yes
  625. winfried other point: does google use it only to provide a service or does it also analyze it for google's own purposes?
  626. forensic58 has left
  627. pep. That we won't know, but I want to assume the latter
  628. winfried In the latter case the data subject must have given explicit consent
  629. winfried and that is a big problem with the current mobile ecosystem
  630. Ge0rG so as the developer you accept Google's ToS and have to require consent from your users
  631. edhelas has left
  632. winfried Ge0rG: that is part of the ToS of Google? (never checked that)
  633. Ge0rG winfried: dunno.
  634. pep. Hmm, I guess that's one of the reasons for https://gafam.laquadrature.net/ against Google. That everything that is done on your device is somewhat tracked via a unique id
  635. Ge0rG TL;DR
  636. pep. and you can't opt-out
  637. pep. I guess the dev should warn their users
  638. winfried yes, I expect https://noyb.eu/ to take it on in the EU
  639. pep. And maybe allow for a way to opt-out of push?
  640. Dave Cridland has left
  641. winfried pep. : and loose an important part of the functionality?
  642. pep. lose*, and yes
  643. Ge0rG https://developers.google.com/terms/ §7a
  644. winfried but yes, from a legal point of view that is the only way
  645. dwd has joined
  646. jonasw winfried, push isn’t *that* important. in many cases on android you can live without it.
  647. pep. I'm using the fdroid version of conversations, I survive :)
  648. jonasw yah
  649. pep. Ge0rG, so by using google APIs, all your users agree to Google's privacy policy?
  650. pep. Or I guess you have to get consent for that
  651. pep. certainly
  652. jonasw the latter probably
  653. Ge0rG yeah.
  654. winfried From an XSF point of view I am afraid we must leave the app developers on their own here
  655. jonasw yeah
  656. jonasw there’s no potential protocol development involved in that
  657. jonasw it’s between the app and the user
  658. winfried exactly
  659. jjrh has left
  660. pep. I'll put that in the minutes still, so it's not forgotten
  661. jonasw not even the server side is much involved, it is just offering to act as a relay for the data to the google services. the app has to ensure that everything is in order for that. it sets that up explicitly.
  662. jonasw good idea
  663. pep. We can still warn client devs
  664. jonasw yes
  665. winfried +1 we have to
  666. Ge0rG do we have a template for tos/data protection policy?
  667. jonasw nafaik
  668. winfried Ge0rG: nope
  669. Ge0rG I need to write ToS for yax.im, and I hoped we'd have a template in place.
  670. winfried guess it is time to write one ;-)
  671. Ge0rG winfried: you volunteer?
  672. winfried Ge0rG: not on my own, but, ues
  673. winfried yes
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  676. pep. So, as a mobile client dev wanting to allow for push, that would mean I would need to have the user opt-in really
  677. winfried I have taken notes to add to my GDPR in 5 steps scheme: contracts with processors mention push notifications
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  680. winfried pep.: correct
  681. Neustradamus has left
  682. jonasw Vhmm
  683. jubalh has joined
  684. winfried jonasw: ?
  685. jonasw is my location any type of sensitive data?
  686. pep. I'd say so
  687. winfried jonasw: not sensitive, but personal
  688. jonasw because there’s this weather app of the german weather service which has push notifications and maybe we can look at their ToS regarding that
  689. jonasw although we’d of course have to know what data is actually in the notifications to be sure that the personal data is in there
  690. jonasw and thus needs to be covered by their ToS
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  695. winfried jonasw: that is also an interesting issue: I know systems that only send pushes telling the app: log in, I have news for you, what is not very sensitive, except when the app is "the remember to take your HIV-medicine app"
  696. Dave Cridland has left
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  699. pep. I know daniel was working on push last weekend, maybe he has some info. I don't remember the details
  700. jonasw okay, in case of the warnwetter app (which I was talking about) it’s probably irrelevant because they anonymize the location to patches of 35x50km, if I’m reading this correctly, before transmitting it to the server at all.
  701. jonasw pep., for google push I think you can get away with a simple wakeup signal, but for iOS you have to actually send content IIRC
  702. dwd has joined
  703. daniel pep., winfried: github.com/inputmice/p2 has a very detailed write down of what gets send
  704. pep. daniel, thanks
  705. daniel On iOS that body is usually 'check you messages'
  706. daniel Your
  707. dwd has left
  708. winfried daniel: thanks, nice comprehensive overview
  709. jonasw indeed
  710. jonasw so this only reveals to google when the same accounts receive messages
  711. jonasw which is probably okay
  712. pep. That still means the user agrees to the privacy policies
  713. pep. That's still valuable metadata
  714. winfried jonasw: depending, in some case metadata analysis can reveal sensitive information
  715. daniel But you can't trace this back to an account
  716. pep. you?
  717. daniel If you give me the hash I wouldn't know what User this correlates to
  718. daniel Neither me nor Google
  719. pep. You the push server?
  720. pep. k
  721. daniel Well Google certainly not. But goggle couldn't ask me either because I don't know
  722. pep. Well google knows something has been sent to a particular device right
  723. daniel Yes
  724. dwd has left
  725. pep. And what application triggered it
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  729. winfried daniel: am I correct that this is your privacy friendly setup and that other implementations may be less privacy friendly?
  730. jonasw yes
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  732. winfried Ok, so maybe we should list this as a best practice!
  733. daniel > daniel: am I correct that this is your privacy friendly setup and that other implementations may be less privacy friendly? I don't know anything about other applications. But I guess you *could* design it in a way that reveals more information
  734. pep. winfried, agreed. There's still some metadata that gets passed to the push component and google that the user needs to be aware of
  735. Holger The data pushed to Google is "the app vendor is asking to wake the app", right?
  736. pep. I suppose yes
  737. winfried pep.: that is correct, but it makes the story far less critical, I can really think about only a few *very* sensitive applications where this really matters
  738. pep. The thing that bothers me here is https://developers.google.com/terms/#section_7_privacy_and_copyright_protection really
  739. pep. "By using our APIs, Google may use submitted information in accordance with our privacy policies."
  740. pep. So that means the user knows about this
  741. winfried pep.: correct
  742. pep. I assume it's similar for iOS
  743. forensic58 has joined
  744. winfried pep.: to be precise: here consent (6.1a) is needed, not only information
  745. pep. yes
  746. pep. daniel, I guess for this you can add that to the "first start guide"? (is there one in conversations I don't remember) "I want push stuff"
  747. lovetox has left
  748. pep. should we plan for next
  749. winfried yes
  750. lumi has left
  751. pep. I can't do monday this time
  752. winfried Tuesday or friday are possible for me
  753. jonasw same for me
  754. pep. Tue 12:30 CEST then?
  755. winfried wfm
  756. pep. We'll get input from Ge0rG when he's available
  757. winfried yes, nice
  758. forensic58 has left
  759. winfried think we should try to move to the XSF policies next time
  760. jonasw wfm
  761. marmistrz has left
  762. pep. I'm going to try and tackle EULA with jonasw this weekend. jonasw I won't be available most of tomorrow, already :/
  763. winfried pep.: I can do some work this weekend too, plz ping me
  764. pep. I think we have most of the requirements on the wiki already, I'll try to gather all that, and then we can talk protocol bricks
  765. jonasw pep., ah pity, I won’t be able most of sunday unfortunately.
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  767. jonasw pep., ah pity, I won’t be available most of sunday unfortunately.
  768. jonasw if that’s okay with you, I might just start a draft tomorrow
  769. pep. jonasw, ok, we'll see how tomorrow goes then
  770. pep. And tonight as well
  771. pep. Sure
  772. winfried ;-) (y)
  773. jonasw tonight isn’t an option for me either, unfortunately
  774. pep. k, we'll try to get in touch then
  775. pep. going for lunch nao
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  781. pep. Minutes sent!
  782. jonasw thanks!
  783. alexis has left
  784. Ge0rG Tue 1230CEST +1
  785. Wiktor in topic of GDPR: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17099484
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  795. daniel > in the otherwise rational tech sector. 🤔
  796. jonasw if one believes these comments, the GDPR is going to clear the EU market and open up a lot of opportunities for startups ;-
  797. jonasw if one believes these comments, the GDPR is going to clear the EU market and open up a lot of opportunities for startups ;)
  798. forensic58 has joined
  799. MattJ I was thinking the same
  800. Ge0rG jonasw: for GDPR-compliant startups.
  801. jonasw Ge0rG, yeah
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  805. jonasw from one resource linked there, in the context of Article 9.1: > It’s important to also consider a seemingly innocuous data field like “hobbies” and what that might indicate about a person.
  806. jonasw (<https://blog.varonis.com/gdpr-requirements-list-in-plain-english/>)
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  812. pep. Does it really depend on the type of field, or on the data. Because as a user I can put any kind of data I want in any field I want
  813. jonasw interesting question
  814. winfried jonasw: yes, I am involved in some apps for people with mental disabilities and there we constantly consider: how sensitive is this datafield / processing.
  815. dwd has left
  816. winfried pep.: it matters how structured the data is, the risks of a structured field are *much* bigger then the risks of a datafield that is used in an unforseen way...
  817. jubalh has joined
  818. pep. Sorry I don't get this
  819. pep. Does that mean as an operator I can say "it's not my fault" if the user doesn't use my form correctly?
  820. winfried If you have a field "are you gay? " (Y/N) then that data is quite risky, it can be abused in a fully automated way. If somebody types in the field "other remarks" "I sometimes fall in love on people of the same sex" then it is hard to analyse, profile, and abuse, certainly without human intervention.
  821. forensic58 has joined
  822. pep. OK, and then we fall under the grey area just like for xmpp messages
  823. winfried pep.: exactly
  824. pep. I'd certainly like to know about email spam filters
  825. winfried and that is why fb is *way* out of line by selling advertisement on probably "gay", "diabetic" etc...
  826. winfried pep.: yes, that is still a fascinating one.... don't know for sure where the limits are there.
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  839. moparisthebest I like that guy's blog generally but https://jacquesmattheij.com/gdpr-hysteria sums up to what every GDPR proponent says about it
  840. moparisthebest "Sure it's draconian the way it's written and easily abused by faceless bureaucrat's, but trust them, they are benevolent regulators!!!"
  841. Zash Is it just me or are the ones being hysteric over this mostly Americans?
  842. moparisthebest I guess that's fine coming from the EU where half the countries still have monarchy's and are used to being subjects
  843. moparisthebest which is why, yes, I'd expect most opposition comes from the USA
  844. dwd has left
  845. Link Mauve Zash, that’s also what I’ve seen, maybe because they’re more used than us with getting fucked by lawyers for anything and everything.
  846. Zash I saw some comment on HN stating that this is roughly a ^C^V of what Germany has had since the 70s-80s
  847. moparisthebest Link Mauve, yes, americans have a strong and healthy distrust of govt
  848. Link Mauve Zash, France too since 1978.
  849. moparisthebest our entire system is based on the premise that govt is bad, and we should protect against an oppresive govt
  850. Zash Sweden has had pretty good privacy laws too
  851. Link Mauve But you see, it’s inimaginable to expect companies to respect laws from forty years ago.
  852. Alex has left
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  854. Seve/SouL grabs popcorn.
  855. Tim has left
  856. Link Mauve moparisthebest, yet your government is bad, and you don’t do anything about it. :(
  857. jonasw moparisthebest, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17100541 maybe that’s relevant
  858. Zash Seve/SouL: good idea, I might have some left from yesterday
  859. jonasw moparisthebest, also, for certain definitions of "healthy"
  860. Link Mauve You haven’t done anything in the past century even.
  861. jonasw (given your health care systems, I doubt that anything is healthy there *scnr*)
  862. Zash Haha
  863. Zash Y'all should learn to extend your distrust to corporations too
  864. Link Mauve Meh, of course there is no English version of this page on Wikipedia… https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loi_informatique_et_libert%C3%A9s
  865. Zash Nor of https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personuppgiftslagen
  866. moparisthebest jonasw, yea I read that, and it makes sense, we have everything spelled out because we *don't* trust govt :P
  867. Link Mauve The GDPR “just” increases the powers of our regulation entity (the CNIL), and uniformises that over the entire EU.
  868. moparisthebest right, and it's easily abused by a bad regulator
  869. pep. tbh I'm not that trustful of my gvt either, maybe not for any good reason, just because trust is a big word
  870. moparisthebest which I think is the entire problem anyone has with it
  871. Link Mauve moparisthebest, yet they are so underfunded that they only go for big fishes and known problems, which is an issue on its own.
  872. moparisthebest an issue I'd be afraid they'd solve with more fines :P
  873. Link Mauve Yay, finally!
  874. moparisthebest anyway that same guy has possibly my favorite blog post on the internet too so it was interesting to see him again https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide
  875. jubalh has left
  876. pep. nice article
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  879. Link Mauve moparisthebest, I fully agree with this article; now why would giving the exact same information to a bunch of companies be any less bad than to some government registry?
  880. moparisthebest it's not, but the solution is to just, not give your data to a bunch of companies?
  881. moparisthebest once you give it, you lost control, all the legislation in the world can't wrench it back
  882. Link Mauve moparisthebest, except for most people, the choice isn’t between giving all of their data to Facebook or not, it’s between talking with their friends and family or not.
  883. Link Mauve And it’s a pretty easy choice to make.
  884. jonasw don’t talk to your friends & family and have more free time \o/
  885. Link Mauve Exactly! \o/
  886. Zash See, easy!
  887. jonasw except, wait, that only works for introverts
  888. Zash More time for hacking on code!
  889. Zash Introverts of the world, unite! Separately, alone, in our homes.
  890. j.r has joined
  891. pep. > Link Mauve> And it’s a pretty easy choice to make. I definitely don't agree with this. It's a conscious choice you have to make
  892. moparisthebest facebook isn't the only way to talk to people
  893. forensic58 has left
  894. jonasw moparisthebest, you think?
  895. jonasw tell that to my family
  896. jonasw (fwiw, I actually made that choice)
  897. Link Mauve pep., you don’t get this information, either before creating your account or during the time you’re using it, if you’re not looking for it.
  898. jonasw okay, that’s only true because facebook==whatsapp in my mind
  899. Link Mauve pep., the other day I went to some anime/game/cosplay convention, and every. single. person. asked me for my facebook account.
  900. Link Mauve For them it’s a no brainer.
  901. pep. Link Mauve, I agree you have to be looking for an out. That's not always obvious, you first have to understand what's wrong about it
  902. Link Mauve Everyone uses it, there is no price to pay to talk to those people, they don’t see any data being harvested, so it’s fine.
  903. moparisthebest everyone still has email right? 99% of people have SMS ?
  904. jonasw moparisthebest, yes, they have email
  905. jonasw but they don’t use it
  906. jonasw and SMS costs
  907. moparisthebest so they chose not to use it
  908. Link Mauve moparisthebest, I don’t have SMS for instance. :p
  909. jonasw moparisthebest, yes, because facebook works
  910. Link Mauve I would get a JMP account if it was available in Europe.
  911. pep. And SMS is plain text right :(
  912. pep. I mean, no tls
  913. jonasw and no cat pics
  914. moparisthebest email and SMS also works?
  915. Link Mauve Yes, SMS is s/Facebook/your telco/ but the rest of the discussion is identical.
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  918. moparisthebest and both support cat pics usually (well MMS)
  919. Zash At least telcos are federated .. amongst themselves
  920. Link Mauve Email is s/Facebook/Google/ so not much better either. :p
  921. MattJ Link Mauve, FWIW I have a friend who is not just oblivious like most people, but actually supports Facebook (and others) behaviour
  922. Link Mauve moparisthebest, you’re very often looking for technical solution to social problems, it’s not necessarily a good way to address those.
  923. Link Mauve MattJ, yeah, those exist too.
  924. MattJ I never expected to meet one :(
  925. moparisthebest are legislative solutions to social problems a better way to address them Link Mauve ?
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  927. jonasw moparisthebest, isn’t that what legislation is all about?
  928. jonasw addressing social problems?
  929. moparisthebest isn't that what tech is all about? :P
  930. jonasw (also, MMS are even more expensive than SMS)
  931. Link Mauve (Depends on the country, in France both are free nowadays.)
  932. jonasw lucky you
  933. jonasw I pay 9ct per SMS, don’t wanna know what MMS would cost
  934. Link Mauve Oh wow, I used to pay 15ct until 2012.
  935. Link Mauve In addition to 15€ per month just to have this number.
  936. jonasw at least the number is free
  937. Link Mauve Afterwards I changed providers, and it became 0€ a month to have the number and unlimited SMS and MMS and two hours of calls and 50 MiB of data with cheap per-MiB overprice.
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  940. moparisthebest I used to pay $0.25 each way back in the day for SMS, but since probably 2005 they have been free
  941. ta has left
  942. moparisthebest well up to 5000 for free or something, virtually unlimited, I have actual unlimited now though I try to just use jmp.chat
  943. winfried Link Mauve: at least here in the Netherlands telecom is *much* more regulated then the internet. My telco provider is not allowed to do with the data what facebook does
  944. la|r|ma has left
  945. Link Mauve winfried, I think it’s the case in France too.
  946. Zash OTOH, telcos and ISPs are mandated to turn over data to the police if they ask.
  947. jonasw winfried, but legislation won’t solve anything!!kk
  948. Link Mauve But I’m really not sure, telecom is a domain I know almost nothing about.
  949. jonasw Link Mauve, ahaha
  950. Zash Depending on how normalized that got after that EU directive
  951. jonasw a paper related to graph analysis started with "or mobile call graphs which were sold as is common with telecommunictions providers"
  952. jonasw but granted this might not have been france
  953. winfried Zash: in then Netherlands even for that the laws are more stringent then for server operators!
  954. jonasw but it shows that it’s not as good as one might think
  955. Zash jonasw: Wasn't that in the news the other day? About US Telcos selling location data
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  1165. Ge0rG I remember when it was insanely cheap to pay 9¢/min of 9k6 mobile internet over IrDA to a phone
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  1170. Ge0rG And then I used to sit together with nerds, log into IRC to chat with other nerds and brag about being part of the future to both sides.
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