Tuesday, May 22, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:04:59] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
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[01:00:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[01:08:57] *** Zash shows as "xa"
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[01:53:05] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[01:57:14] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[02:07:15] *** dwd has left the room
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[02:58:07] *** Yagiza shows as "chat" and his status message is "Поболтать"
[02:58:08] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[03:00:18] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[03:01:34] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
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[03:43:24] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[03:44:31] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[03:53:26] *** alexis has joined the room
[03:54:38] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[03:54:49] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
[04:04:34] *** UsL shows as "online"
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[04:27:25] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[04:37:30] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[04:45:26] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
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[05:28:01] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[06:01:05] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[06:54:36] *** marmistrz shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[07:00:38] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[07:01:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[07:20:38] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[07:29:24] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
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[07:29:54] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:31:28] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[07:31:34] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[07:31:34] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:31:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:32:02] *** pep. has left the room
[07:32:06] *** pep. shows as "online"
[07:32:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:33:10] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:33:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:36:45] *** tux shows as "away"
[07:37:31] *** Valerian has left the room
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[07:38:38] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[07:39:54] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:40:15] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[07:40:18] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[08:44:41] *** andy shows as "xa"
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[08:53:38] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[08:54:38] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[08:55:19] *** intosi shows as "online"
[08:55:26] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:57:48] *** rtq3 has left the room
[08:57:53] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[08:58:07] *** rtq3 has joined the room
[08:59:32] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:00:15] *** winfried shows as "online"
[09:03:12] *** andy shows as "online"
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[09:05:27] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[09:10:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:10:37] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[09:16:56] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[09:22:34] <pep.> gdpr meeting in 10?
[09:22:43] <pep.> jonasw, winfried, Ge0rG
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[09:24:16] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
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[09:30:37] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[09:31:49] <Ge0rG> pep.: I thought 1230?
[09:31:54] <Ge0rG> But I can do either
[09:32:15] <pep.> Ah fail
[09:32:19] <pep.> 10:30 UTC indeed
[09:33:17] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:33:47] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:33:53] <jonasw> sudo -u pep. sudo apt install tzdata 😸
[09:34:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:34:09] <jonasw> a.k.a. timezones are hard
[09:34:18] *** ta shows as "online"
[09:34:55] <pep.> `useradd: invalid user name 'pep.'`
[09:35:12] <Ge0rG> RCE over MUC=
[09:37:17] *** winfried has left the room
[09:37:56] <jonasw> Ge0rG: only in signal :>
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[10:01:10] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:04:18] *** daniel has left the room
[10:11:11] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:11:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:11:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:12:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:16:39] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[10:20:28] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
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[10:21:14] <jonasw> GDPR in 9, Ge0rG, winfried, pep.
[10:21:23] <pep.> !
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[10:22:13] <Ge0rG> I have prepared temporary ToS and Privacy Policies for yax.im, which I would like to make available as a template for the XSF: https://yaxim.org/yax.im/tos/ and https://yaxim.org/yax.im/privacy/
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[10:26:25] <winfried> ;-)
[10:27:17] <jonasw> is a recital sufficient? or does it need an actual paragraph which instantiates that recital?
[10:27:29] <Ge0rG> a what?
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[10:30:57] *winfried bangs the gavel and welcomes pep. jonasw and Ge0rG to the GDPR meeting
[10:31:02] <pep.> !
[10:31:13] <jonasw> Ge0rG, your opt-out wording is confusing:
> You can opt out from this by unsubscribing these contacts from your contact list.
("what does unsubscribing from a contact list mean?")
I’d suggest:
> By allowing a user to subscribe (typically this is done when adding to the contact list), you opt into this transfer.
[10:31:19] *jonasw waves at winfried
[10:32:09] <winfried> jonasw: yes, wording it as an opt-in is better
[10:32:16] <winfried> Agenda for to?
[10:32:25] <winfried> s/to/today/
[10:32:39] <pep.> yeah, opt-in might be better
[10:32:54] <pep.> What do we have on the agenda today? The template?
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[10:33:39] <pep.> Not much progress on the EULA XEP. I gathered the requirements here, https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/IiUC5h-fzN14FAeSdcBoAQgc/ but I haven't started the protocol bits
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[10:34:00] <winfried> I feel like taking a look at the bigger picture: where are we, what is the course of action (looking at the MAM discussion in standards@) what are the todo's and how to do them
[10:34:02] <jonasw> I’d also word the push service paragraph differently:
now:
> If you enable push notifications (e.g. on a mobile client), the data that is required to perform the push notification (typically a device ID and message meta data) is transmitted to the respective push service provider (Art. 6.1b, Art. 49.1b).
my suggestion:
> If you enable push notifications (e.g. on a mobile client), the message is transferred (Art. 6.1b, Art. 49.1b) to a server designated by the client application. The processing afterwards is subject to the data protection policies of the applications server and the respective push service provider.
[10:34:20] <jonasw> yeah, sorry about the EULA XEP, I was more busy than I anticipated
[10:34:33] <pep.> jonasw, no worries, I didn't have much time either
[10:34:39] <jonasw> re push paragraph: because technically, you’re transferring the complete message to the applications service and then it’s already out of your control, Ge0rG.
[10:34:44] <winfried> neither did I ;-)
[10:34:45] <jonasw> if my memory of the push protocol is right
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[10:35:39] <winfried> jonasw: daniel posted a nice link to the implementation he uses. It reveals minimal data, the push service even doesn't know what application it is pushing to!
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[10:35:58] <pep.> winfried, of course it does? How would that work otherwise
[10:36:02] <jonasw> winfried, true, but as an XMPP server provider, you can’t be sure about which app server software is used.
[10:36:13] <winfried> jonasw: correct
[10:36:32] <jonasw> and you transfer at teh very least message body and timestamp to the app server, at which point it’s out of your control
[10:36:50] <pep.> jonasw, "app server"?
[10:36:57] <pep.> the push component?
[10:37:22] <jonasw> pep., the server provided by the client (e.g. Conversations) which transforms the XMPP Pushes (as specified in XEP-0357) to whatever is needed on the provider (google) side.
[10:37:29] <pep.> Right
[10:37:33] <jonasw> pep., cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html#sect-idm139090519180208
[10:38:08] <jonasw> "Push Service" and "User Agent" are owned by e.g. google, but the App Server is run by the client application authors, and not by the XMPP server provider
[10:38:18] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm not pushing actual message content, just placeholders.
[10:38:32] <jonasw> Ge0rG, is that a modification of mod_cloud_push?
[10:38:45] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no, default behavior with a custom setting.
[10:38:50] <jonasw> in any case, the statement is incorrect insofar that it suggests that (only) google/apple is the nexthop, but there’s the app server inbetween
[10:39:02] <Ge0rG> `push_notification_important_body = "Important message";`
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[10:40:01] <Holger> jonasw: The protocol allows for including the sender address and message contents with the push notification, but that's optional and neither Prosody nor ejabberd will do that by default.
[10:40:19] <Holger> jonasw: The notification is not a message stanza but a PubSub-like IQ.
[10:40:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: updated both places, thanks. Please have a look at the new push wording
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[10:40:53] <Ge0rG> Holger: we are not talking about stanzas but about user content.
[10:41:06] <Ge0rG> Holger: so "message" in this context is rather the <body> element.
[10:41:54] <jonasw> s/opt in into/opt into/?
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[10:42:34] <Ge0rG> isn't the verb "opt in"?
[10:42:41] <Ge0rG> maybe "opt in to"?
[10:42:50] <winfried> Ge0rG: I would say so
[10:42:55] <Ge0rG> !summon native speaker
[10:43:11] <jonasw> okay, nits though
[10:43:14] <jonasw> otherwise I think this looks good
[10:43:30] <jonasw> but, IANAL
[10:44:17] <pep.> Ge0rG, can I link to your yax.im URLs or should we move that to the wiki
[10:44:23] <pep.> in the minutes
[10:44:44] <Ge0rG> pep.: They are WIP right now, so I'd rather not have them linked "publically"
[10:44:57] <jonasw> copying would be fine though?
[10:45:00] <pep.> k, so maybe we can copy that to the wiki
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[10:45:33] <Ge0rG> I'd like to establish some process where we have a master copy and the yax.im ToS are a fork of that.
[10:45:44] <winfried> Ge0rG: git!
[10:45:45] <Ge0rG> so you can fork it yourself and profit from later updates.
[10:45:59] <jonasw> maybe a repository under xsf?
[10:46:01] <jonasw> or xmpp?
[10:46:01] <Ge0rG> markdown + C preprocessor?
[10:46:12] <Ge0rG> jonasw: moving a git is the easiest part.
[10:46:26] <Ge0rG> the hard part is the split of template and specific server content.
[10:46:31] <jonasw> hmm
[10:46:41] <pep.> Right
[10:46:43] <jonasw> jinja is a neat templating language
[10:46:44] <Ge0rG> Or maybe some kind of ToS generator?
[10:46:53] <jonasw> would be trivial to build a generator on top of that
[10:46:58] <Ge0rG> Jinja is Beautiful. {% extends "layout.html" %} {% block body %} <ul> {% for user in users %} <li><a href="{{ user.url }}">{{ user.username }}</a></li> {% endfor ...
[10:47:05] <Ge0rG> They lost me at {%
[10:47:14] <jonasw> they copied that from erb I think
[10:47:17] <pep.> I don't think we should focus on html
[10:47:48] <Ge0rG> Markdown is an ideal language for the content, minus the templating.
[10:47:51] <jonasw> the advantage I see in jinja that its inheritance and block stuff would allow for easy replacement of specific blocks.
[10:47:58] <jonasw> and extension
[10:48:05] <jonasw> that would be cumbersome with C preprocessor
[10:48:37] <Ge0rG> We could also `sed -e s/ZZZservernameZZZ/$SERVERNAME/g`
[10:48:50] <jonasw> those are technicalities
[10:48:50] <Ge0rG> or use bash here-documents.
[10:49:02] <jonasw> let’s focus on what winfried suggested
[10:49:06] <Ge0rG> I don't care. I just don't want to learn a new templating engine language.
[10:49:12] <Ge0rG> git?
[10:49:20] <jonasw> 10:34:00 winfried> I feel like taking a look at the bigger picture: where are we, what
[10:49:22] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ^
[10:49:32] <Ge0rG> :P
[10:49:35] <Ge0rG> Right.
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[10:49:46] <pep.> In the meantime I don't have anything to show for this part of the minutes :x
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[10:49:54] <pep.> But we can sort this out later
[10:49:54] <winfried> hey, I am participating again :-P
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[10:50:33] <winfried> Big picture: we have some things we want to change on protocol level

[10:50:43] <winfried> EULA-XEP
[10:50:47] <winfried> Deletion
[10:50:56] <winfried> Transfer of data
[10:51:09] <winfried> (any other?)
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[10:51:31] <winfried> ah, defaults for MAM
[10:51:50] <Ge0rG> retention times for MAM and HTTP uploads.
[10:51:59] <Ge0rG> Current implementations lack auto-removal of "expired" entries
[10:52:11] <pep.> s/HTTP uploads/server-side file storage/
[10:52:15] <winfried> There was some discussion on the standards@ list about incorporating local laws in standards
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[10:52:32] <winfried> what is our opinion in that?
[10:52:48] <pep.> Allowing deletion via the protocol has nothing to do with local laws right
[10:53:17] <winfried> I guess some topics are generic and not specifically for one jurisdiction
[10:53:21] <Ge0rG> winfried: the protocol purist in me says we should not encode local laws into our protocols.
[10:53:39] <Ge0rG> OTOH, the pragmatist requests an easy way for server operators to comply with local laws.
[10:53:42] <pep.> Ge0rG, I think I agree with that, but deletion itself is just a technicality and not a law
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[10:54:26] <pep.> We might want to have another informational "GDPR compliance" XEP
[10:54:31] <winfried> Ge0rG: and what about an optional extension that describes an action needed in a certain jurisdiction...?
[10:55:16] <Ge0rG> winfried: I'd go with Business Rules paragraphs in relevant XEPs
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[10:55:37] <Ge0rG> while true ; do
killall -STOP lua5.1
sqlite3 prosody.sqlite 'DELETE FROM prosodyarchive WHERE host="yax.im" AND store="archive2" AND "when" < '$(($(date +%s)-14*24*3600))' LIMIT 5000;'
killall -CONT lua5.1
sleep 2
done
[10:55:47] <Ge0rG> This is how I'm doing GDPR compliance right now.
[10:56:22] <winfried> Ge0rG: :-D
[10:56:43] <Ge0rG> And this is not only fugly, it's also killing my availability / latency.
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[10:56:49] <jonasw> sleep 2?!
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[10:57:06] <winfried> I can imagine you want something more... sophisticated
[10:57:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes. I can't just delete *all* messages at once because there are too many.
[10:57:49] <Ge0rG> deleting 5k takes <10s, so it's just barely bearable.
[10:58:17] <pep.> How many users do you have again?
[10:58:21] <pep.> Active users
[10:58:46] <Ge0rG> ~1k
[10:58:56] <Ge0rG> But I have some active bots, it seems. And for reasons beyond my understanding, those bots are using MAM
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[10:59:48] <winfried> So do we agree on:
1) patching XEPs / adding XEPs when generic functionality is needed for compliance
2) adding busisness rule paragraphs to relevant XEPs to explain about local laws?
[10:59:49] <pep.> Ok, so back to XEPs,
[11:00:17] <winfried> 3) informational GDPR XEP?
[11:00:29] <pep.> if 3), is 2) required
[11:01:01] <pep.> We definitely need 1) in any case
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[11:01:09] <pep.> And I don't think anybody will argue this
[11:02:16] <winfried> jonasw: ?
[11:02:27] <Ge0rG> what do we nee 1 for?
[11:02:36] <Ge0rG> patching XEPs is #2, isn't it?
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[11:03:16] <winfried> New XEP: eula XEP, http storage management
[11:03:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, (1) is adding functionality, (2) is adding business rules
[11:03:50] <jonasw> those are differences, and (2) can be moved to a generic GDPR XEP, while (1) can’t
[11:03:57] <jonasw> (well, could, but it wouldn’t make sense)
[11:04:06] <pep.> jonasw, 1 could be added to an addon XEP, but :/
[11:04:13] <pep.> Not informal
[11:04:16] <pep.> **informational
[11:04:20] <Dave Cridland> I'd rather not plaster every XEP with detailed GDPR implementation stuff. Rather, at most a pointer to another XEP. Otherwise the conflict between different jurisdictions is going to get very complicated, especially with normative language.
[11:04:21] <Ge0rG> Re EULA XEP: do we need explicit consent?
[11:04:52] <winfried> pep.: think we need to decide on a case to case base if an add on is better of patching the xep
[11:04:59] <Ge0rG> If we need explicit consent, the EULA-on-IBR would be one possible implementation, with a web form based registration another obvious one.
[11:05:00] <pep.> Dave Cridland, 1. above is not "GDPR implementation stuff", right
[11:05:17] <pep.> 2 and 3 are, and I'm also leaning towards 3
[11:05:21] <pep.> rather than 2
[11:05:27] <winfried> I guess Dave Cridland meant the choice between 2 and 3
[11:05:28] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I was thinking along the lines of "A server implementation must provide a way to delete user data by means of X"
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[11:06:24] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Yes, but that's not true everywhere. Instead you need a feature to allow users to request deletion, but I'd rather a server in a jurisdiction that mandates retention isn't offering me that feature.
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[11:06:34] <pep.> We will need to tell developers though where to find that XEP
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[11:06:43] <pep.> XEP discovery is another common issue
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[11:07:37] <winfried> pep.: "Privacy considerations: this XEP may have GDPR consequences, please see XEP-GDPR for more information"
[11:08:05] <pep.> winfried, k
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[11:08:39] <Ge0rG> I can't see how we can create an (informational or other) GDPR XEP until May 25h.
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[11:09:09] <jonasw> I agree
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[11:09:16] <jonasw> I wanted to get EULA done by today, but schedules
[11:09:17] <winfried> Ge0rG: Nope, I have to finish a DPIA before then :-D
[11:10:23] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I still think that a mention under Business Rules is required. Even if it says "Depending on local laws, you MUST or MUST NOT provide a way ..."
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[11:10:59] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, If a XEP has the phrase "MUST or MUST NOT" I will have to nuke it from orbit.
[11:11:24] <pep.> What winfried said above
[11:11:30] <pep.> "Privacy considerations: this XEP may have GDPR consequences, please see XEP-GDPR for more information"
[11:11:36] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Also, "MUST" etc are related to interop, not legal requirements. I suspect that we (the XSF) may need to be careful about appearing to offer legal advice, too.
[11:11:43] <winfried> Ge0rG: can you explain why you think it is required?
[11:11:53] <Dave Cridland> pep., That phrasing works for me.
[11:11:56] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: why? It's only self-contradicting if it's "MUST *and* MUST NOT"
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[11:12:19] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Because it's meaningless.
[11:12:33] <Ge0rG> "this XEP may have global warming consequences, or may contain traces of nuts"
[11:13:00] <pep.> What doesn't have global warming consequences..
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[11:13:12] <Seve/SouL> And doesn't contain traces of nuts
[11:13:17] <Seve/SouL> 0:D
[11:13:24] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: but I agree that RFC 2119 language SHOULD NOT be applied to legal requirements.
[11:13:26] <winfried> pep.: the chilling effect (couldn't resist)
[11:13:33] <jonasw> :>
[11:13:52] <Ge0rG> winfried: LOL
[11:14:21] <pep.> :)
[11:14:41] <pep.> Ge0rG, so I read you'd prefer to have GDPR details *in* the XEP?
[11:14:46] <pep.> And not an informational XEP
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[11:15:16] <Ge0rG> pep.: I don't know. Whatever will make server implementors create compliant implementations works for me
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[11:15:55] <jonasw> I think general "privacy considerations" without mentioning legislation would be a good thing™
[11:15:59] <pep.> I'd see winfried's phrasing above, + informational GDPR xep
[11:16:05] <Dave Cridland> pep., Really don't want to do that. The problem there is that you'd also need to put in Sarbanes-Oxley, for example.
[11:16:06] <jonasw> it would help to create awareness, just like Security Considerations do
[11:16:11] <jonasw> and I think they have a place in the XEP
[11:16:16] <pep.> Dave Cridland, yes I don't want either
[11:16:18] <Dave Cridland> pep., That is, put GDPR sections in every XEP.
[11:16:26] <pep.> hmm
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[11:16:43] <Dave Cridland> pep., Ugh. I'm being really unclear. I do not want GDPR bits in every XEP.
[11:17:00] <pep.> what GDPR bits
[11:17:12] <pep.> You'd be ok with just saying "seealso GDPR XEP"?
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[11:17:20] <Dave Cridland> pep., Yes.
[11:17:20] <jonasw> I have something like "The protocol specified herein allows users to store data on storage controlled by the server, so deletion and retention times need to be considered."
[11:17:25] <pep.> Dave Cridland, ok then we agree
[11:17:26] <jonasw> I have something like "The protocol specified herein allows users to store data on storage controlled by the server, so deletion and retention times need to be considered." in mind.
[11:17:26] <winfried> Dave Cridland: if we create an informational XEP about Sarbanes-Oxley, I wouldn't mind other XEPs pointing to it
[11:17:47] <Ge0rG> Maybe the issues is if we actually need *every* *other* XEP to point to the new one?
[11:17:47] <Dave Cridland> It might actually be useful to note what data is retained by each XEP, since that has very wide applicability and use.
[11:18:04] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, that’s what I had in mind for "Privacy Considerations" sections in XEPs
[11:18:16] <jonasw> and a separate GDPR document could point out what to do with specific data.
[11:18:58] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Right, and I think it also forms very useful input to consent, privacy policy, etc stuff on a more generic level.
[11:18:59] <jonasw> so in general, PCs (Privacy Considerations) would list:
- what data is stored
- what data is exposed to other servers and users
- what is needed for data exposure (know the JID / needs to be subscribed / ...)
[11:19:05] <pep.> jonasw, that still seems GDPR-specific. Some other law might define "private data" entirely differently
[11:19:10] <winfried> Like that idea, but it will be quite a bit of work to update all XEPs
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[11:19:23] <jonasw> pep., doesn’t matter, I’d consider all user data in that section.
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[11:19:57] <winfried> jonasw: +1
[11:20:15] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, +1 from me too, for whatever it's worth.
[11:20:26] <pep.> jonasw, k
[11:20:39] <winfried> and should we also add a paragraph like that to the RFCs?
[11:20:43] <jonasw> I’ll re-word my '363 PR to conform with that.
[11:21:03] <winfried> jonasw: great!
[11:21:13] <pep.> winfried, mined territory I assume :p
[11:21:22] <Ge0rG> Having a "Privacy Considerations" section with that data in all XEPs would be great. We could just link those from the server ToS
[11:22:09] <winfried> Ge0rG: with autodiscovery based on service discovery!
[11:22:19] <jonasw> can we plan for enxt?
[11:22:25] <pep.> Can we define quickly what would go into that informational XEP
[11:22:30] <pep.> So we can start working on it quickly
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[11:23:16] <pep.> jonasw, +whatever should work for me. Friday with the small delay as usual
[11:23:23] <winfried> pep.:
- steps for compliance
- red flags
[11:23:29] <jonasw> I can only make friday I think
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[11:23:40] <jonasw> so friday 1230 CEST or 1330 CEST would be good for me
[11:23:48] <winfried> wfm
[11:24:00] <pep.> 1230 CEST worksforme
[11:24:07] <pep.> 1330 as well
[11:24:14] <winfried> 1330 not for me
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[11:24:27] <jonasw> 1230 CEST on Friday, 25th it is then, Ge0rG?
[11:24:27] <Ge0rG> either is good
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[11:24:33] <Dave Cridland> If someone writes the skeleton and an abstract for this GDPR XEP today, we can give it a number by tomorrow.
[11:24:38] <winfried> D-Day!
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[11:24:54] <Dave Cridland> ... which might help "advertise" what you guys are doing.
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[11:25:09] <Ge0rG> next number is 403, right? ;)
[11:25:13] <Dave Cridland> (It'd also give us something to blog about as the XSF)
[11:25:16] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no, next is 409 I think
[11:25:16] <pep.> Ge0rG, no that's MIX?
[11:25:21] <Ge0rG> Oh, wow.
[11:25:22] <winfried> Dave Cridland: good plan, I don't have time :-(
[11:25:23] <jonasw> I’ll try to dedicate my afternoon to the EULA XEP
[11:25:27] <Ge0rG> I'm behind on that thread.
[11:25:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, cf. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pulls
[11:25:40] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, I think MIX wants that, but I'd love to see the Editor creatively rearrange...
[11:25:57] <jonasw> 409 Conflict is also good ;-)
[11:25:59] <Ge0rG> I would have skipped 403 as well. But meh.
[11:26:09] <jonasw> Ge0rG, 404 isn’t skipped
[11:26:10] <pep.> yeah 409 is also fine :P
[11:26:11] <jonasw> it’s for MIX ANON
[11:26:20] <jonasw> (the order in the PRs is just weird)
[11:26:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: NOOO!1!!
[11:26:36] <jonasw> gotta go now
[11:26:37] <Dave Cridland> I wondered if MIX Anon was intentionally at 404.
[11:26:42] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, it is
[11:26:49] <Dave Cridland> But yeah, I think we should skip it for amusement's sake.
[11:27:05] <jonasw> I don’t feel like renumbering them ;-)
[11:27:17] <jonasw> MIX anon is a good use for XEP-0404 imo :)
[11:27:26] <Ge0rG> I disagree. But what do I know.
[11:27:40] <winfried> Should I close the GDPR meeting? ;-)
[11:28:12] <Dave Cridland> By the way, huge thanks to you guys for doing this.
[11:28:18] <pep.> winfried, :)
[11:28:19] <winfried> jonasw: do you have time to also submit a skelton and abstract for a GDPR informational XEP?
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[11:28:47] <pep.> jonasw, I can have a look at EULA, for the obvious bits? (if there is any)
[11:29:00] *Dave Cridland wonders if he needed to opt-in to be mentioned in the minutes.
[11:29:08] <pep.> Dave Cridland, I was going to ask
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[11:29:32] <winfried> Dave Cridland: you revealed yourself, so no mercy :-D
[11:29:32] <pep.> But the logs of this room are public anyway, just like the minutes :P
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[11:30:24] <jonasw> winfried, no, sorry
[11:30:46] <winfried> I shouldn't do it, but I will give it a shot
[11:30:51] <winfried> (then)
[11:30:54] <jonasw> winfried, why shouldn’t you do it?
[11:31:09] <jonasw> if you’re uncomfortable with the markup, you can also just send me a markdown or whatever based document
[11:31:13] <jonasw> and I’ll transform it
[11:31:21] <winfried> time, am already terrible behind on an other GDPR project
[11:31:26] <jonasw> right
[11:31:37] <winfried> but it shouldn't be too much work
[11:31:43] <jonasw> do whatever you need to save time, my issue with the informational is mostly that I don’t have the big picture or anything
[11:32:04] <jonasw> I’m fine with an .odt if that’s what you’re most comfortable writing in
[11:32:10] <winfried> jonasw: k, let you know if I need anything
[11:32:56] *winfried bangs a gavel and starts writing a XEP
[11:32:56] <pep.> Ge0rG, you're ok if I copy your tos/privacy policy to the wiki with a big "WIP"
[11:33:10] <pep.> And "To be moved to git"
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[11:34:58] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, I don’t think I’ll be able to make the 24 hour agenda deadline for the council meeting with the EULA XEP though
[11:34:59] <Ge0rG> pep.: yeah
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[11:36:46] <pep.> We're still in Q1.1.2 right
[11:37:02] <pep.> or 1.1.3 maybe
[11:37:10] <pep.> Ah no 1.1.2
[11:37:17] <pep.> "consequences for server operators"
[11:37:43] <pep.> *1.2
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[12:06:23] <pep.> winfried, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "Big picture: we have some things we want to change on protocol level" and "Transfer of data" specifically
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[12:07:57] <winfried> pep.: timestamp ? loosing my context ;-)
[12:08:45] <pep.> 19:50:33 winfried> Big picture: we have some things we want to change on protocol level
19:50:43 winfried> EULA-XEP
19:50:47 winfried> Deletion
19:50:56 winfried> Transfer of data
19:51:09 winfried> (any other?)
19:51:31 winfried> ah, defaults for MAM
[12:08:50] <pep.> (UTC+9)
[12:09:15] <winfried> ah...
[12:09:48] <winfried> that is the portability thing, download everything so it can be put on an other server
[12:09:55] <pep.> I see
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[12:43:10] <pep.> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/j5ggWca+SLu32klePWFOeCIK/ winfried, jonasw, Ge0rG if you can have a quick look before I send
[12:44:52] <Ge0rG> pep.: 👍
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[12:50:38] <winfried> (Y)
[12:51:14] <jonasw> wfm
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[12:51:37] <jonasw> I’ll now try to merge the MIX PRs and then I’ll start to look at the EULA XEP
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[12:51:54] <Steve Kille> jonasw: thanks!
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[13:08:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: But 404!
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[13:09:02] <jonasw> yes?
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[13:09:33] <Ge0rG> Okay, I didn't do anything when that window of opportunity was open, so I have no right to complain about it.
[13:09:40] <jonasw> Steve Kille, is "RELIABLE-DELIVERY" not there yet or am I missing something?
[13:09:55] <Ge0rG> I'll just pile my sadness on top of the Pidgin-officially-encouraged pile and move on with life.
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[13:11:39] <Steve Kille> RELIABLE-DELIVERY is a piece of MIX that is needed, but it was clear that hte text in MIX was wrong and it might be useful elseowere
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[13:12:56] <Steve Kille> So, I (or someone else) needs to work out exactly what needs doing and write it.
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[13:13:44] <Steve Kille> Running without this is probably not going to be a big deal for most deployments
[13:15:31] <Steve Kille> BTW using 404 for MIX-ANON was the choice of my co-author
[13:15:42] <Steve Kille> I think the humour is good
[13:16:11] <Ge0rG> IMHO, that number should have been used for "XEP not found"
[13:16:49] <Steve Kille> Kev got there first
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[13:24:30] <jonasw> MIXes merged
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[13:24:53] <jonasw> Steve Kille, FWIW, the conflicts were because somebody submitted editorial changes in the meantime (0.10.1 was released), but that was trivial to handle
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[13:27:18] <Steve Kille> thanks very much for sorting this out.
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[13:28:06] <Steve Kille> Meanwhile, I've received some private editorial comments on 1.0.0, whch I will work at soon
[13:28:42] <jonasw> I renumbered it to 0.10.2
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[13:28:50] <jonasw> it is not draft yet, and only draft can have 1.x.x
[13:28:58] <jonasw> and since the split was editorial as discussed, it got 0.10.2
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[13:29:52] <Steve Kille> ah - I did not realize this.
[13:30:20] <Steve Kille> Given that over half of the text vanished from 369, this scarecely seems editorial
[13:30:54] <Steve Kille> I'm going to have to confess now that there were some technical changes
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[13:31:13] <Steve Kille> Mamking the XEPs independnent needed changes
[13:31:45] <Steve Kille> Making Proxy JIDs work without MIX-ANON needed various changes
[13:31:53] <jonasw> uh
[13:32:28] <jonasw> yeah, I saw a namespace bump in there
[13:32:36] <jonasw> but I think that’s going to be needed either way
[13:32:47] <jonasw> I can’t really fix the version number now anymore, I’m afraid.
[13:32:54] <jonasw> so we’ll have to live with t hat
[13:33:05] <Steve Kille> shall I move to 11.0 when I do the next set of changes?
[13:33:11] <Steve Kille> All the others are at 0.1.0
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[13:34:34] <jonasw> increment the last digit (the z in x.y.z) for purely editorial changes, and the second digit (y in x.y.z, reset z to 0) for changes which include non-editorial chnages
[13:35:25] <Steve Kille> I think that the changes since 10.0 deserve a seond digit bump
[13:35:52] <Steve Kille> However, it is just a number, and I am happy with whatever the experts decree
[13:36:11] <jonasw> I agree that a second digit bump would’ve made sense
[13:36:17] <jonasw> but that’s spilled milk
[13:36:30] <jonasw> more or less
[13:36:52] <Steve Kille> I was asking if it makes sense to make the bump as part of the editorial changes I will make soon?
[13:37:06] <jonasw> ah, now I understand
[13:37:17] <jonasw> I’ll abort the build and fix the version number to 0.11.0
[13:37:42] <Steve Kille> if that is not too much trouble, I think that makes most sense
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[13:37:45] <jonasw> done
[13:37:58] <Steve Kille> you're a hero
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[13:42:12] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG, what do you think about announcing the TOS version via disco#info *and* stream features? This would allow servers to announce updates via stream features s.t. clients can pick that up
[13:42:57] <pep.> jonasw, sgtm
[13:43:12] <Ge0rG> jonasw: aren't we overloading our caps infra already?
[13:43:20] <jonasw> not sure
[13:43:24] <jonasw> for servers I don’t think so
[13:43:42] <pep.> jonasw, what do you do with it then? the client knows there's a new version, where does it fetch it
[13:43:49] <jonasw> pep., via the in-band protocol
[13:43:59] <pep.> Ok ok
[13:44:11] <pep.> iq or ad-hoc?
[13:44:16] <jonasw> not sure yet
[13:44:20] <jonasw> I think ad-hoc won’t do the trick
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[13:45:32] <pep.> I'd prefer iq I think, but I don't have a strong opinion
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[13:50:54] <pep.> All the features a user will opt-in, they also need to be able to opt-out easily btw. Should that also be done via the xep (one place to rule them all, "easy discovery"), or let the client decide where each feature config should go? e.g, Preferences > MAM > [x] Enable; Preferences > Other feature > [ ] Enable
[13:51:04] <pep.> Meh, I don't think the one place to rule them all would work
[13:51:11] <jonasw> yupp
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[13:51:18] <pep.> that'd need to fiddle with every other modules
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[13:51:19] <Ge0rG> There is one place to rule them all. "Delete account"
[13:51:19] <jonasw> that needs to go into the individual XEPs, just like it’s handled currently
[13:51:42] <pep.> Ge0rG, no
[13:52:00] <pep.> Say I still want to benefit from the services, but I want to opt-out of every consented feature
[13:52:38] <pep.> Doesn't have to be "please delete MAM", just "Please no MAM anymore"
[13:53:18] <jonasw> https://paste.debian.net/hidden/eb963ea8/
[13:53:22] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG, ^
[13:53:23] <pep.> "The user shall be able to retract consent [..]", I don't have the exact quote
[13:53:46] <pep.> An error occurred during a connection to paste.debian.net. SSL peer rejected your certificate as expired. Error code: SSL_ERROR_EXPIRED_CERT_ALERT :(
[13:53:50] <jonasw> nice
[13:53:54] <pep.> I'll have to change that client cert..
[13:54:04] <jonasw> s/https/http/ will work though
[13:54:16] <pep.> yeah.. unfortunately
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[13:54:23] <Ge0rG> "The server subsequently replies with the &tos; payload:" - that sounds like it's a ToS *payload*, but it's merely a ToS *link*
[13:54:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it is a payload of the ToS protocol
[13:54:44] <pep.> Ge0rG, I'd like to allow for both
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[13:55:17] <pep.> If you want to point to an external source, good for you. You might also want to handle this in-band
[13:55:17] <Ge0rG> Let's talk about XHTML-IM ToS payloads.
[13:55:31] <jonasw> pep., it’s not realistic to have the complete document in-band
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[13:56:14] <pep.> jonasw, that's fine as long as EULA is only used for c2s
[13:56:20] <pep.> I mean, oob is fine**
[13:57:01] <jonasw> I’m thinking however, if we actually make Ge0rGs thing into a template, that we could use that template and have the server say things like "this is template X version Y, with the following things filled in: MAM retention time = xyz, upload retention time = abc, representative = frank nord"
[13:57:32] <Ge0rG> representative = Jon Snow.
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[13:57:50] <pep.> jonasw, I'm sure that template will get hairy quickly
[13:57:58] <jonasw> maybe, but maybe not
[13:58:01] <pep.> Plus operators will want to modify more than just placeholders
[13:58:15] <jonasw> pep., in any case, putting the whole ToS in-band won’t work.
[13:58:24] <pep.> won't work how?
[13:58:36] <jonasw> question 1: which markup format to use for formatting?
[13:58:45] <pep.> We don't have anything to do formatted payloads anymore? :)
[13:58:46] <pep.> Too bad
[13:59:11] <jonasw> I would have argued strongly against anything XHTML. way too much, markdown would be sufficient, if it was standardised.
[13:59:25] <pep.> but styling is not markdown.
[13:59:33] <jonasw> styling is not sufficient
[13:59:42] <pep.> Don't tell me
[13:59:43] <jonasw> you need headings in a ToS, and enumerations and lists
[13:59:47] <jonasw> I am confused
[13:59:56] <Ge0rG> Are we talking about Markleft or Markright?
[14:00:01] <pep.> Ge0rG, both
[14:00:14] <pep.> Also Markhtml
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[14:11:14] <jonasw> pep., do you happen ot have a link to your EULA XEP pad at hand?
[14:11:29] <pep.> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/IiUC5h-fzN14FAeSdcBoAQgc/
[14:11:37] <jonasw> ty
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[14:38:07] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/tos.html
[14:38:18] <jonasw> sorry for the lack of CSS
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[14:39:23] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG, winfried, here’s a preview version with CSS: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/tos.html ; I’d appreciate any early feedback.
[14:39:49] <jonasw> I think this should cover the basic points for now, we can expand on this for including more information about the ToS in the payloads later.
[14:41:34] <pep.> jonasw, example 2 contains </stream:features>
[14:41:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: the title might better be "ToS Reference" than just "ToS"
[14:41:54] <jonasw> pep., ty
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[14:42:18] <jonasw> Ge0rG, "Terms of Service Agreement"?
[14:42:23] <jonasw> because it also handles ACK-ing the ToS
[14:42:31] <jonasw> I find ToS a good name still.
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[14:43:14] <pep.> jonasw, can we not use oob or sims or something that's already there to give the url?
[14:44:06] <jonasw> pep., what would be the benefit?
[14:44:18] <pep.> Not reinventing the wheel
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[14:45:54] <pep.> hmm, oob doesn't allow for MIME, sims does though
[14:46:21] <Ge0rG> Wasn't there an IBR extension by daniel?
[14:46:41] <winfried> jonasw: what when there are several documents like a ToS and a separate Privacy statement?
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[14:48:09] <jonasw> pep., but it wouldn’t be re-usable much except for wire format maybe, and it would tie us to the SIMS namespace
[14:48:18] <pep.> jonasw, I don't know what the convention is, but I'd put <deadline/> inside <tos/> maybe
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[14:48:39] <jonasw> pep., but semantically, the deadline is for the change not for the ToS itself
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[14:48:44] <winfried> Can it also be communicated when it is obliged to agree to the terms or when it should only be available
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[14:48:46] <jonasw> winfried, that’s a good question
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[14:49:05] <jonasw> winfried, that’s a good question (regarding multiple documents)
[14:49:10] <pep.> jonasw, right.. I'm a bit annoyed at having this directly in <message> for some reason
[14:49:18] <jonasw> winfried, regarding requiring agreement, sure, we can communicate that, but does it make sense?
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[14:52:52] <jonasw> winfried, is there a good reason to separate the documents?
[14:53:36] <jonasw> this will increase the complexity a lot because we either have to put human-readable titles in the wire-format (complexity with i18n) or pre-define the types of documents we want to support
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[14:54:23] <pep.> Maybe we can just allow multiple sources of the same type
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[14:55:10] <jonasw> pep., how would that look in a client UI?
> you have to agree to the following terms to use the service:
> document 1 (link)
> document 2 (link)

:/ that looks awful
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[14:56:04] <pep.> Well.. having both links for plain/text and plain/html, what will clients display anyway?
[14:56:12] <pep.> randomly choose between the two?
[14:56:23] <jonasw> unless you’re poezio, you’d probably link the text/html thing
[14:56:29] <jonasw> and dispatch to a web browser
[14:56:38] <jonasw> poezio might as well show the text/plain version inline
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[14:57:29] <pep.> pardon my UX skills, but as a user I'd prefer to have a choice
[14:57:38] <jonasw> most users don’t want to
[14:57:49] <jonasw> they don’t even care about the difference between html and plaintext :)
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[14:58:04] <pep.> which is also why I use poezio unlike "most users"
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[14:58:32] <Dave Cridland> winfried, You know, you *could* use a SASL2 task for EULA agreement.
[14:59:11] <pep.> jonasw, anyway, I can live with just one document (and optionally multiple types), for the original question
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[14:59:22] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, i’d love to see a SASL2 task to replace my pre-bind/post-auth hack
[14:59:54] <jonasw> IBR integration is still on the todo
[15:00:20] <winfried> jonasw: communicating the requirement to agree: some documents (like the privacy statement) only need to be available, while some others, like a 6.1a question, need to be agreed upon.
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[15:01:00] <winfried> jonasw: and that is also an answer to the other topic: if you have both, you want to present both with a different status
[15:01:11] <jonasw> winfried, okay, that makes things much more complex.
[15:01:17] <pep.> Right. I've seen services present me multiple ToS I could agree to
[15:01:38] <jonasw> I was operating under the assumption that we have a ToS document (including privacy policy) which needs to be agreed to always and that all 6.1a questions are handled separately already.
[15:01:57] <jonasw> (such as MAM)
[15:02:02] <winfried> pep.: yeah, that is ugly, but there may be good reasons for
[15:02:12] <jonasw> back to the scratchpad then
[15:02:44] <pep.> winfried, I guess we can skip this though, and do as jonasw says, have opt-in features be handled separately
[15:02:48] <winfried> jonasw: in our GDPR route, we avoid asking 6.1a questions, but other setups or other jurisdictions may have different needs
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[15:03:17] <pep.> winfried, as in, clients would have UI for this, some configuration somewhere
[15:04:02] <winfried> pep.: IF you offer an 'agree-iq', then you should also communicate if it is mandatory to agree it. Otherwise it is just informational
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[15:04:24] <jonasw> my assumption was that it’s always mandatory
[15:05:03] <winfried> jonasw: Nope, misconception #1 about the gdpr ;-)
[15:05:10] <pep.> I don't think it is (always mandatory).
[15:05:31] <jonasw> mmm
[15:05:35] <jonasw> okay, will have to re-do things then
[15:05:43] <winfried> jonasw: sorry...
[15:05:55] <jonasw> no, that’s great, we need a good thing here
[15:06:02] <jonasw> better sort it out before the first implementation comes along :)
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[15:08:07] <winfried> Dave Cridland: love that idea, but I am happy you said *could* :-D
[15:08:48] <pep.> Yeah I'd like to see what that looks like as well
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[15:09:13] <jonasw> winfried, okay, would this work:
- we have a list of documents which can be reviewed by the user
- we have a list of tickboxes where users can consent to things which aren’t handled elsewhere (e.g. additional content analysis which would go into 9.1 territory or something)
- the tickboxes default to false
- agreement to individual documents is handled via the tickboxes, if at all.
- a service would put the terms for the tickboxes in their privacy policy document by default
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[15:11:37] <jonasw> so the UI would be something like this:

+----------------------------------+
| |
| Terms of Service |
| |
| Service xy has the |
| following Terms. |
| Please review: |
| |
| - Terms of Service (link) |
| - Privacy Policy (link) |
| |
| [ ] Allow analysis of my |
| messages for marketing |
| purposes |
| (see Privacy Policy §12.3) |
| [ ] Allow sharing my contacts |
| with Facebook |
| |
| |
+----------------------------------+
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[15:11:48] <jonasw> + a [Register] or [Continue] button
[15:12:06] <jonasw> the tickboxes would be provided by the service
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[15:13:17] <pep.> Also [Cancel], that would close the stream? :-°
[15:13:31] <jonasw> probably
[15:13:57] <pep.> Would MAM go in these [ ], or would it be in client configurations like we said above
[15:14:08] <jonasw> I would put that in client configuration
[15:14:18] <pep.> Because then we're separating stuff that requires consent
[15:14:32] <pep.> I mean there would be stuff all around, not just one place to accept
[15:14:33] <jonasw> if you choose to enable MAM, you have of course already read the privacy policy and thus know the terms for MAM
[15:14:38] <jonasw> yeah
[15:14:46] <pep.> Right
[15:14:54] <jonasw> A service could of course also put the MAM switch in there, but it’s useless if the client doesn’t support MAM, so it would be confusing.
[15:15:09] <jonasw> the tickboxes would be entirely service-define
[15:15:11] <jonasw> the tickboxes would be entirely service-defined
[15:15:13] <pep.> Makes sense
[15:15:21] <Ge0rG> that looks like a data form.
[15:15:31] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the tickboxes will use data form wire format indeed
[15:15:34] <jonasw> Ad-Hoc command wire format even
[15:15:54] <Ge0rG> The issue I have is that yaxim will not connect to the server until you fill out the username + password fields.
[15:16:10] <jonasw> so?
[15:16:47] <pep.> Ge0rG, pulling down a XEP because of client implementation? how dare you :o
[15:17:20] <Ge0rG> pep.: I didn't write "The issue this XEP has"
[15:17:20] <winfried> pep.: a [Cancel] would be up to the server to decide, it may only disable certain functionality
[15:17:32] <pep.> Ge0rG, :)
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[15:18:17] <pep.> winfried, if a user cancels, what happens legally? they don't agree to the ToS, but they can continue using the service?
[15:18:28] <pep.> I'm a bit confused
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[15:19:11] <Ge0rG> I like how you have sorted out race conditions between the user reading and the ToS updating here... `<agree xmlns='urn:xmpp:tos:0'><version>0.1.0</version></agree>`
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[15:19:36] <winfried> pep.: depends on the question. If the question is: "i agree to connecting to my facebook account" (or so) then not ticking the box would only stop that part of the processing, not all XMPP service
[15:19:50] <jonasw> is cancel really a thing?
[15:20:02] <jonasw> i mean yeah, cancel would mean that you don’t want to use the sevrice at all because you don’t agree with it’s ToS
[15:20:08] <pep.> jonasw, [disagree], I guess
[15:20:20] <pep.> jonasw, [Disagree], I guess
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[15:20:22] <jonasw> the non-negotiable parts of the ToS, because the negotiable parts are formulated as tickboxes
[15:20:28] <pep.> jonasw, yes
[15:20:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't like the use of headline messages. With always-on clients, I'd always fear sending a user a message in the middle of the night.
[15:20:57] <pep.> Ge0rG, it's always the night somewhere..
[15:21:02] <pep.> Ge0rG, it's always night somewhere..
[15:21:08] <Ge0rG> pep.: that's exactly my point.
[15:21:15] <winfried> pep.: oops mixing up not ticking a box and [disagree]
[15:21:33] <pep.> Ge0rG, who cares, people should setup notifications properly
[15:21:42] <Ge0rG> pep.: the right thing™ would be to send another kind of notification and let the user agree when they re-open their client
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[15:22:06] <Ge0rG> pep.: people are using Jabber for important family notifications. Ringing them up at 3AM is not what I want to do.
[15:22:17] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the notification could be delayed until the next CSI Active if the client is CSI Inactive with a smart implementation :)
[15:22:36] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I don't believe in smart implementations any more.
[15:22:39] <jonasw> (with a delay of a few minutes to allow a client to go CSI Inactive after a reconnect)
[15:22:47] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do you have another idea for the notification?
[15:22:54] <jonasw> I don’t want to use an IQ because that won’t work with legacy clients at all.
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[15:23:05] <jonasw> we don’t have a "silent" thing unfortunately
[15:23:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you encode the tos-version in the entity caps and push a presence update.
[15:23:14] <jonasw> presence update from whom?
[15:23:17] <Dave Cridland> I'm not convined you want to handle ToS changing mid-stream.
[15:23:18] <Ge0rG> from the server.
[15:23:18] <jonasw> and that won’t work with legacy clients at all.
[15:23:42] <winfried> Dave Cridland: why not?
[15:23:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, users typically don’t have their server in the roster.
[15:23:43] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: what's your counter-proposal? Kick the client?
[15:23:52] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes.
[15:23:54] <pep.> clients*?
[15:23:58] <Ge0rG> jonasw: this is why it's going to work.
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[15:24:19] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you are an evil persion
[15:24:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: what was discussed last time for mid-stream server-caps updates?
[15:24:23] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Basically. If you're at the point where the ToS update is so pressing you need to get user agreement at that moment, you're going to need to anyway.
[15:24:31] <jonasw> but relatedly, I have an update for XEP-0390 pending which allows servers to push updates to their caps
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[15:24:49] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, nobody’s talking about "in that moment"
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[15:24:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes. yes I am.
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[15:25:10] <jonasw> the notification is supposed to be sent a few days ahead so that the user has time to review etc.
[15:25:12] <Ge0rG> you kick the user twice. First on the ToS update, second when they failed to accept the update in time.
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[15:25:29] <Ge0rG> BTW, what happens if they fail to accept it? They get kicked and can't reconnect? Need to accept the ToS oob?
[15:25:52] <jonasw> Ge0rG, § 4.5 in the draft I linked
[15:25:58] <jonasw> https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/tos.html#usecase-expired
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[15:26:32] <jonasw> ideally, this would be a SASL2 thing as suggested by Dave Cridland, but we don’t have SASL2 yet, and it can easily replaced with SASL2 later.
[15:26:37] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wow, well thought out :)
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[15:26:47] <winfried> Ge0rG: isn't that up to to the server
[15:26:50] <Ge0rG> data-forms in SASL2?
[15:27:04] <jonasw> Ge0rG, sasl2 is like zombo.com -- everything is possible in SASL2
[15:27:07] <Ge0rG> winfried: what that?
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[15:28:00] <winfried> [17:25:29] <Ge0rG> BTW, what happens if they fail to accept it? They get kicked and can't reconnect? Need to accept the ToS oob?

[15:28:27] <Ge0rG> winfried: yeah, but if you lock out the user, they need an oob mechanism to re-agree with the ToS
[15:28:39] <jonasw> (or an in-band mechanism ;-))
[15:28:48] <Ge0rG> an in-band mechanism between auth and bind, yes.
[15:29:16] <Ge0rG> can you 0198 resume such a semi-zombie?
[15:29:50] <jonasw> I was about to add that you’d kill the session completely when they don’t agree to the ToS in time
[15:30:15] <jonasw> you can’t know how long it’ll take for them to ack the new terms and shutting down the session cleanly and completely is probably the best you can do.
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[15:54:02] <winfried> jonasw: can you have a look? https://github.com/winfried/xeps/blob/master/inbox/GDPR.xml
[15:55:14] <jonasw> I would add a paragraph right into the introduction: "This document is not legal advice"
[15:55:56] <jonasw> this is probably a good start
[15:59:32] <pep.> winfried, interoperability*
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[16:03:05] <winfried> jonasw: thanks, added
[16:03:14] <winfried> pep.: thanks, fixed
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[16:05:45] <winfried> jonasw: do you want a pull request?
[16:07:40] <jonasw> winfried, you can do a PR, I’m not 100% convinced that this is enough to pass though.
[16:07:45] <jonasw> and I’m not 100% sure if this is council or board matter
[16:07:50] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, do you have an opinion?
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[16:08:12] <winfried> jonasw: we will see ;-)
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[16:08:57] <Dave Cridland> It's not procedural, so probably not Board.
[16:09:14] <jonasw> it’s informational though
[16:09:40] <Dave Cridland> Yes, but lots of Informational stuff is processed by Council.
[16:09:55] <jonasw> winfried, pep., Ge0rG: updated https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/tos.html
[16:09:59] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, true
[16:10:03] <Dave Cridland> Board handle the XEPs that document XSF policy and procedures.
[16:10:06] <jonasw> okay
[16:10:09] <jonasw> so council it is
[16:10:42] <Dave Cridland> (Which are "Procedural")
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[16:14:01] <winfried> jonasw: pull request send
[16:14:06] <jonasw> neat, thanks
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[16:19:07] <winfried> Of to dinner!
[16:19:17] <jonasw> gl!
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[16:29:22] <jonasw> another update
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[17:05:29] <pep.> jonasw, no MIME anymore?
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[17:07:49] <pep.> meh, nvm. You gave me too much options in the first draft!
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[17:07:56] <pep.> meh, nvm. You gave me too many options in the first draft!
[17:08:55] <pep.> Ah wait, there is
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[17:12:11] <pep.> you say "The data form for legacy clients and additional opt-ins/opt-outs", but even if I'm a client implementing the XEP I'll want all this, no? What exactly can I get rid of in that form, especially when I have to reply with the same fields
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[17:13:01] <pep.> hmm, maybe just to provide alternative versions/urls of the documents
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[17:17:47] <jonasw> pep., yes, you can only remove the additional elements
[17:17:52] <jonasw> pep., yes, you can only remove the documents
[17:17:55] <jonasw> but that is written down there
[17:18:14] <pep.> nit: "In the future, more children may be added to the <tos/> element. Conforming clients thus MUST ignore all children they do not understand.", I find "conforming" disturbing here, as conforming clients would understand these updates.. But I know you're talking about cases where deployments are not up-to-date
[17:18:34] <jonasw> pep., it might also be that an additional XEP extends it
[17:19:10] <pep.> Ok makes more sense in this case
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[17:23:44] <pep.> jonasw, "[..] and use a richer representation obtained from the <tos/> element for the same data." you mean HTTP GET on the urls?
[17:23:55] <jonasw> for example
[17:24:04] <pep.> Does it have to be a url btw
[17:24:07] <jonasw> and in the future maybe fancy things like machine-readable MAM retention times etc.
[17:24:08] <jonasw> yes
[17:24:08] <pep.> can it be a uri
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[17:24:14] <jonasw> ugh, I never get the difference
[17:24:30] <pep.> I'm probably wrong, I mean does it have to be http
[17:24:34] <jonasw> no
[17:25:49] <pep.> How would you display a plaintext file retrieved in your client, the question of rich formatting still stands
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[17:26:08] <jonasw> you could also have a text/markdown version.
[17:26:13] <jonasw> or text/restructuredtext
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[17:27:02] <pep.> Instead of "Duplicate MIME types MUST NOT occur.", can we have "Duplicate url/MIME type pairs MUT NOT occur."
[17:27:38] <pep.> hmm, I assume the url would use a different protocol though
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[17:28:12] <jonasw> pep., duplicate MIME types makes it hard for the client to decide which one ot use
[17:28:35] <pep.> It can decide based on the protocol _and_ the mime type
[17:28:46] <jonasw> right
[17:28:51] <jonasw> might add that later
[17:29:02] <jonasw> I pushed it into the xeps repo now
[17:29:05] <pep.> Ok
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[17:30:40] <pep.> What about errors when client submits filled-out form
[17:31:18] <pep.> "not latest version", "invalid documents", "unknown opt-in feature", etc.
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[17:32:17] <jonasw> yeah, should probably be defined
[17:32:18] <pep.> Ah I see you've added a <tos-push/> containe r:)
[17:32:21] <jonasw> you can send those to the mai3ling list :)
[17:32:25] <pep.> will do
[17:32:26] <jonasw> (once the announcement is out)
[17:32:48] <jonasw> which I’m not 100% sure I’ll get to today because I’m heading out in half an hour and the build takes ages :(
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[17:33:19] <pep.> :(
[17:33:31] <pep.> something something incremental builds
[17:33:33] <jonasw> yeah
[17:33:36] <jonasw> something something docker sucks
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[17:34:10] <pep.> I'd argue that's up to the CI
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[17:34:53] <jonasw> you can’t do that with docker hub, period.
[17:35:12] <pep.> Ah, well docker hub != docker
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[17:39:25] <pep.> Did we had Privacy Considerations to the template btw
[17:39:45] <jonasw> no, I didn’t want to do that in the climate after the XEP-0363 debate
[17:39:49] <pep.> ok
[17:39:51] <jonasw> and I still need to reword the ideas for that
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[17:40:36] <pep.> "The version identifiers generated by servers MUST NOT be longer than 128 characters." a reason for this in particular? (even if unlikely)
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[17:43:41] <pep.> "Servers MUST NOT allow entities to query the Terms of Service of another server unless they are authenticated." I'm not sure I get this
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[17:44:31] <jonasw> before you are authenticated, your server MUST NOT allow you to query other servers for their ToS
[17:44:57] <pep.> But other servers may allow anybody to attempt a connection and query their tos right
[17:45:19] <pep.> Just like my https://service.example/tos will be public, I don't mind having my xmpp server disclosing them publicly
[17:45:26] <jonasw> yes
[17:45:39] <jonasw> but you don’t want to be an open proxy for entities sending IQs towards other servers.
[17:45:48] <pep.> I see
[17:46:06] <pep.> Also what about sasl anonymous
[17:46:16] <jonasw> I don’t see how that’s relevant
[17:47:05] <pep.> ToS acceptance is required only if there is account creation?
[17:47:17] <jonasw> dunno
[17:47:22] <jonasw> IBR integration is still fully missing
[17:47:30] <pep.> Right
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[17:47:58] <jonasw> theoretically, a SASL ANONYMOUS thing could apply § 4.4 Inform client about Terms of Service expiry after authentication
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[17:49:16] <pep.> I'll reply to the thread when it's out and ask about all that
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[17:53:44] <jonasw> okay gotta go, build didn’t finish in time :( will send the mail tomorrow or later tonight
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[20:08:50] <Ge0rG> speaking of appropriate number mappings...
403 = GDPR Compliance
404 = Terms of Service
[20:09:46] *pep. grabs popcorns
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[20:12:25] <moparisthebest> Ge0rG, I think those have been reserved for the mix hatchet job
[20:12:55] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: not merely reserved, they are official now.
[20:13:18] <pep.> moparisthebest, yes, he's been onto it for half a day now, now about this :P
[20:13:38] <Zash> Popcorn you say?
[20:13:52] <moparisthebest> ah so they are
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