Friday, May 25, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:18:29] <jonasw> not that I knew
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[10:27:23] <winfried> GDPR in +3
[10:27:33] <jonasw> uh, lunch in +0
[10:27:44] <winfried> same here ;-)
[10:29:51] <Wiktor> vanitasvitae: what do you mean by Mastodon? do you want to promote social services based on the nefarious HTTP protocol, while we have some based on XMPP? :)
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[10:30:36] <jonasw> I’m kinda there nevertheless, winfried
[10:30:43] <jonasw> pep., Ge0rG, GDPR in +0
[10:31:20] <Ge0rG> wut?
[10:31:24] <Ge0rG> -ECOFFEE
[10:31:46] <Ge0rG> The GDPR is active now. There is nothing more we can do, anyway.
[10:32:04] <jonasw> we can run in circles panicin
[10:32:21] <winfried> send every user a mail they have to give permission!
[10:32:42] <Ge0rG> I don't know my users' emails. I need to create an xmpp bot to ask them for addresses first.
[10:32:54] <winfried> Ge0rG: GO!
[10:33:02] <jonasw> I can let muchopper do that
[10:33:05] <Ge0rG> No, not Go. Erlang!
[10:33:17] <Ge0rG> jonasw: MUC-PM everyone for consent!
[10:33:21] <jonasw> do I interpret this correctly that tehre’s not going to be an actual meeting now?
[10:33:34] <Ge0rG> It looks like we are all here. Let's meet!
[10:33:54] *winfried bangs the gavel, lets talk business
[10:34:09] <winfried> what is on the list today?
[10:34:17] *Ge0rG looks at the chair.
[10:34:25] <Ge0rG> winfried: what is on the list today?
[10:34:34] <winfried> :-D
[10:34:40] <Ge0rG> There is a "TBD" proto-XEP
[10:34:49] <Ge0rG> There is technical work in the context of consent.
[10:35:16] <Ge0rG> My personal opinion is that I'm not doing any consent-requiring data processing, so I don't need explicit consent nor any kind of XEPs to support it.
[10:35:40] <winfried> Lets talk the consent XEP first
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[10:36:01] <Ge0rG> There is merit in having a formalized way to link to ToS and similar policy documents.
[10:36:16] <Ge0rG> At least it's better than something like https://yaxim.org/blog/2018/05/24/updated-yax-dot-im-policies/
[10:36:29] <winfried> Ge0rG: first of all: it is not only about consent, but also about informing users about the privacy statement and changes in it
[10:36:58] <winfried> other jurisdictions or other deployments *may* have the need for consent
[10:37:08] <jonasw> I plan to extend the ProtoXEP with an IBR integration proprosal and write a draft prosody module which implements the Ad-Hoc flow this weekend
[10:37:17] <Ge0rG> winfried: good point. Is there a legal obligation to inform users about ToS changes that do not require explicit consent?
[10:37:34] <Ge0rG> jonasw: also don't forget to submit yaxim PRs :P
[10:37:40] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you wish
[10:37:51] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes, there is
[10:38:50] <winfried> consent is article 6.1a + article 7, informing is article 12
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[10:39:37] <winfried> I feel the XEP should cover both use cases
[10:39:45] <jonasw> it does, I hope
[10:39:57] <Ge0rG> > When requested by the data subject, the information may be provided orally
Yay.
[10:40:01] <jonasw> when I have the draft impl in prosody for the Ad-Hoc flow, I can make a demo video
[10:40:05] <winfried> (haven't checked the latest version, but it should)
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[10:41:40] <winfried> Anything else on the ToS-XEP?
[10:41:53] <Ge0rG> winfried: I've skimmed §12 but I don't see anything about pushing updates to users
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[10:44:20] <winfried> Ge0rG: it say right at the start "appropriate measures" (own translation from dutch), that includes informing about changes...
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[10:44:40] <winfried> Ge0rG: at least, that is where is case-law has been heading
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[10:45:25] <winfried> but you are right, when skimming it, I don't see it explicitly stated
[10:45:31] <pep.> !
[10:45:39] <winfried> hi pep. !
[10:45:53] <pep.> Sorry I even missed the start
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[10:47:07] <winfried> I propose to move on to the informal TBD XEP I submitted
[10:48:05] <winfried> The XSF seems te be a bit reluctant to give legal advice (what I kind of understand)
[10:49:29] <pep.> Well if we can't give some kind of guidance this meetings were somewhat pointless, no
[10:49:40] <pep.> I mean from the XSF point of view
[10:50:15] <pep.> The ToS XEP is coming out which is good, but it doesn't cover everything
[10:50:37] <winfried> so I proposed, here in the MUC and on standards@ to write a XEP with general privacy considerations and best practices and to keep hard legal stuff out of the XSF but on personal title
[10:50:54] <jonasw> that doesn’t seem like a bad idea
[10:51:39] <pep.> Where do you want to make the split between privacy considerations and legal stuff
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[10:53:13] <winfried> pep.: you can say: check what jurisdiction you are in, you can't say: if A or B, you are under the GDPR. You can say: check your retention policy in MAM, you can't say: to be GDPR compliant you have to default it to 0.
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[10:54:01] <winfried> (Guess Ge0rG is on the phone)
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[10:54:52] <Ge0rG> winfried: no, but I agree so far
[10:55:27] <Kev> If the privacy XEP happens to be what's needed for the GDPR, and individuals want to blog/Twit/whatever "The XSF has published privacy recommendations. I think these are sufficient for GDPR compliance", that seems fine to me.
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[10:56:18] <Kev> Just so long as the XEP itself doesn't go near law.
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[10:58:56] <winfried> Kev:I agree the goal of the XEP should be to present an outline that brings an operator close to GDPR compliance, but you can't go all the way because there are some choice to make that have a legal component too. The exact line where 'performing a contract' (6.1b) is insufficient and consent (6.1a) is need for example. Or when a client can enable MAM by default and when not.
[10:59:30] <Kev> And this is why I'm not competent to review a GDPR XEP :)
[10:59:46] <winfried> ;-)
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[11:00:17] <pep.> (I'm boarding, will be back in a few)
[11:01:22] <winfried> Then my next question is: who is willing to put his name under the non-XSF document? I don't care to do so (am putting my head far deeper in the line of liability-fire on a daily basis)
[11:01:41] <jonasw> I’m not keen on that
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[11:02:20] <Kev> winfried: Don't care to do so, or Don't care about doing so?
[11:02:29] <Kev> Opposite meanings :)
[11:02:56] <winfried> Kev: thanks... I perfectly willing to do so ;-)
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[11:03:48] <winfried> Kev: (here I miss one of the subtleties of the English language)
[11:04:19] <winfried> Ge0rG, pep. ?
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[11:06:15] <winfried> The other question is: coordination of the informal XEP. I started something there, but I would like it to reflect the work done here and the involvement of all of you.
[11:06:37] <Ge0rG> winfried: I've put my head into the yax.im liability issues.
[11:06:44] <Ge0rG> and my name under.
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[11:07:15] <winfried> Ge0rG: so we co-create this informal document?
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[11:08:33] <Ge0rG> winfried: I'm not sure whether you are talking about the proto-XEP now or about a non-XSF document of some kind (what exactly?)
[11:09:24] <winfried> Ge0rG: the liability issue is with the non-XSF document, for the proto-XEP I think we have to come up with a workflow
[11:09:24] <pep.> I guess that's why there is so few documents out there giving advice
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[11:11:08] <winfried> pep.: three reasons: nobody knows, lawyers who know make serious bugs right now and providing for free gives liability or other discussions...
[11:11:09] <pep.> winfried, what kind of liability is this really. "I've followed a guide on the internet and now I've got issues. I'm suing them because I'm an [ass]"
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[11:11:49] <pep.> If you really want legal advice, get legal advice :x
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[11:12:35] <winfried> pep.: I know of lawyers blogging all the time with legal advice, stating it as their own opinion. So I don't think the issue is too big
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[11:13:18] <winfried> pep.: but a bit of risk is always there
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[11:14:34] <winfried> (feel some lag on the line... hoping to finish Q1.3 with this)
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[11:15:04] <pep.> winfried, you can put my name in there as well fwiw
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[11:15:38] <pep.> Now where is that document going to be published
[11:15:55] <Ge0rG> winfried: I can imagine posting a blog post on my private blog with IANAL "advice" for XMPP operators.
[11:16:56] <winfried> Yes, I was also thinking of my site/blog (though that one is mainly in Dutch)
[11:17:24] <winfried> Which one is the most steady and best read?
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[11:18:47] <winfried> And an interesting question: should we coordinate writing it on a XSF chatroom/mailinglist ;-)
[11:19:29] <jonasw> as long as you don’t get kicked out :)
[11:19:36] <Kev> winfried: I think it also matters where you are, when you give legal 'opinions'.
[11:19:40] <Ge0rG> winfried: I'm pretty sure there is no liability issue for the XSF if we use this MUC
[11:19:57] <Ge0rG> Kev: what kind of "where" do you mean?
[11:20:33] <Ge0rG> winfried: my blog is minimalistic, but pretty robust. it's probably a bit off-topic as it is highly technical. https://op-co.de/blog/posts/
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[11:20:46] <Kev> Ge0rG: In the US, etc.
[11:21:27] <Ge0rG> Kev: is giving free "legal" "advise" on some blog while not being a lawyer an offense somewhere?
[11:21:34] *Ge0rG asking for legal advise.
[11:21:59] <jonasw> I don’t feel I can contribute to this, so I’ll cut that meeting short for me, I have a tighter schedule for today
[11:21:59] <winfried> Ge0rG: it would be fully on-topic on my blog, but technically my blog is not very suited for longer reads https://www.tilanus.com/#weblog
[11:22:02] <Kev> I had heard that it was in the US, which is why IANAL is a thing. But that could be entirely ficticious. *shrug*.
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[11:23:38] *winfried gives Ge0rG legal advise in a blog :-P
[11:23:54] <winfried> Ge0rG: and my blog is not very SEO
[11:24:03] <pep.> Not really sure what to do for my part either.
[11:24:36] <winfried> jonasw: ok... I would love of you can comment on a draft!
[11:25:18] <winfried> pep.: commenting on a draft would be the least!
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[11:26:00] <Ge0rG> winfried: your blog indeed is very strange ;)
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[11:26:45] <winfried> Ge0rG: yeah, still wondering of I should refactor my site...
[11:27:13] <winfried> and there are still over a dozen blogs that are not on my site yet!
[11:27:19] <Ge0rG> winfried: it looks like it's a javascript spa?
[11:27:42] <winfried> Ge0rG: yes.. wanted to expirement with some techniques
[11:27:42] <jonasw> winfried, commenting on the draft is surely a thing I can do
[11:28:55] <winfried> jonasw: great!
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[11:29:26] <winfried> Ge0rG: can we create a collaborative editing document somewhere?
[11:29:43] <winfried> And we have to set a date for the next meeting
[11:30:56] <winfried> should we invite the XSF server operators to discuss Q2 with them?
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[11:34:49] <winfried> Guys: I have to leave in some minutes...
[11:35:38] *winfried bangs the gavel and thinks about the old Buddhist discussion about whether a sound is a sound if nobody hears it
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[11:37:10] <Seve/SouL> That's deep.
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[11:40:31] <pep.> winfried: sure, same here I can comment. (Sorry my connection is really spotty)
[11:40:31] <pep.> I'll also try to comment on the ToS XEP today/this weekend
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[11:41:39] <pep.> There's no planning for next?
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[12:04:36] <winfried> pep.: not yet
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[12:38:23] <Ge0rG> > Complaints have been filed against Facebook, Google, Instagram and WhatsApp within hours of the new GDPR data protection law taking effect.
That should read "against Facebook, Google, Facebook and Facebook"
[12:38:49] <Zash> Spam spam spam eggs bacon and spam?
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[12:40:51] <Link Mauve> https://gafam.laquadrature.net/ is one such complaint, filed as a class action.
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[12:46:16] <Zash> So today is the day of the GDPRcalpyse?
[12:48:12] <Link Mauve> Finally. :)
[12:48:36] <Dave Cridland> Zash, Seems OK so far. If you want to continue to receive my replies, please click here.
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[12:50:52] <Zash> <{jabber:x​:form} type="submit">here</x>
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[13:49:34] <winfried> Ge0rG: are you aware of any other claims then those by NOYB and laquadrature?
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[13:51:46] <winfried> Link Mauve: My French fails on me there, is laquadrature.net preparing complaints or did they already file them?
[13:52:06] <Ge0rG> winfried: Max Schrems is actually the one I'm following the most
[13:52:13] <Link Mauve> They are filing it today, have been preparing for some months already.
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[13:54:40] <winfried> Ge0rG: yeah, NOYB got a *big* donation from me, hope that finally the android-spyware ecosystem gets taken down, it is a *real* problem in my work
[13:54:45] <winfried> Link Mauve: thanks!
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[19:57:02] <Tobias> Regarding GDPR, could I request my messages to be removed from an archive of a user I talked to on a remote server?
[19:58:12] <Zash> Sure you can. You can request anything from anyone! (I don't know the answer to the actual question.)
[19:58:14] <Ge0rG> Tobias: no
[19:58:16] <Ge0rG> Tobias: unless the remote user is a commercial entity
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[19:59:12] <Tobias> The user is not, but the server the user is on probably, not?
[19:59:54] <Ge0rG> Tobias: maybe, but the other server is storing data on behalf of that other user.
[20:00:17] <Ge0rG> Tobias: so they can argue they have a legitimate interest to store it to fullfil the xmpp service agreement to the user
[20:00:28] <Tobias> Ah...ok
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