XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-05-29


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  3. Zash ... but?
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  51. Ge0rG Nobody does it. Maybe most client developers don't care about UX, nor about corporate use cases
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  54. jonasw I feel that org setup is more of a server side thing?
  55. Ge0rG Server developers don't care about corporate either.
  56. jonasw I think the ignite folks do
  57. Ge0rG But that doesn't matter because the client UX sucks
  58. jonasw reminds me to make things even harder for clients by specifying the IBR flow for ToS
  59. jonasw even though I’m inclined to simply say "ToS setups where consent is required before signing up are not supported by this XEP, but may be handled by a future specification"
  60. Zash "use a web form or something"
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  63. Ge0rG jonasw: so what you are trying to invent has no value over web forms but compatibility issues?
  64. Zash As opposed to everything else
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  66. jonasw Ge0rG, it has; for GDPR, you don’t need consent anyways :)
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  68. jonasw consent-requiring services will need that, but that’s #notmydepartment right now
  69. jonasw (but the spec can be extended to support that, so that’s good)
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  134. jonasw Kev, MattJ, can some of you help me with an issue on jabber.org?
  135. jonasw Kev, MattJ, can some of you help me with an issue on jabber.org (the xmpp service)?
  136. MattJ Not sure if I'll be able, but shall if I can - what's up?
  137. jonasw there’s a room with an invalid JID on conference.jabber.org: @conference.jabber.org (yes, with empty node part)
  138. Seve/SouL I think Anu touches an interesting point and I have to agree with him on the specific idea he mentioned. Discord, for instance, does a very similar thing. Where you create a 'server' (I think they call it that way) and you can create as many as MUCs you want under that 'server'. Do we have a way in XMPP to do this? Like a top level node where you add MUCs under it? Maybe with MIX this is possible?
  139. jonasw Seve/SouL, apt install prosody, echo 'Component "sub.domain.example" "muc"' >> /etc/prosody/prosody.cfg.lua ?
  140. jonasw it would be great if that room could be nuked, MattJ
  141. Ge0rG jonasw: don't forget prosody-modules and two days of surfing the web to find out which versions of which modules are needed
  142. jonasw Ge0rG, MUC is luckily built-in :)
  143. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: I've argued for a long time that we need a two-click server deployment that integrates with LDAP, has all the nice modules... and a usable web client
  144. jonasw Ge0rG, do that!
  145. jonasw don’t argue, make it
  146. jonasw that being said, I think I mentioned that Guus is doing things in that direction. not only with a web client, but with WebRTC conference things
  147. Seve/SouL jonasw, haha, no no. I mean, unless you want to have this component for every user x) They call it a server but it's just like the root. Let's say we join Discord. I create a 'server' called XSF. And under it, I create offtopic, board, council, etc.. and everybody that joins the XSF 'server' can check the list of MUCs I've created for the XSF.
  148. jonasw but nobody is looking in that direction for some reasn.
  149. Ge0rG jonasw: but it's real work. Work for people who are more skilled in Lua and mercurial
  150. jonasw Seve/SouL, you mean like a separate MUC namespace for each user?
  151. Seve/SouL All of that, is under the same service
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  153. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm looking for corporate clients who would ask for that. None found so far
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  155. jonasw Seve/SouL, this won’t be possible with MIX either, and I’m not sure if it makes sense at all. A corporate deployment would have a domain anyways and host their services under that domain.
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  157. Seve/SouL Hmm, I didn't have companies in mind now, but imagine a large company. They would have an xmpp server, and each department would create their own MUCs inside the department's namespace. Like: IT namespace> Frontend dev, Backend dev, DevOps, etc
  158. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: that's great. Except that's not how large companies work
  159. MattJ Seve/SouL, you can have as many MUC domains as you like
  160. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: today's bigcorp want a cloud-based / private-cloud deployment that's fully integrated into their CMDB and AD and stuff
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  162. MattJ Which just about any XMPP server provides
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  165. Ge0rG MattJ: are you speaking of AD integration or of "as many MUC domains as you like"
  166. MattJ Both
  167. jonasw (conference.jabber.org really could use some cleasing)
  168. Seve/SouL I understand what you say MattJ. But I think it would be interesting to explore that feature, as Anu said Slack works that way and Discord too. Of course they have this feature because they provide this service, and this feature maybe would not be useful for someone using XMPP just to talk with friends, but...
  169. Ge0rG MattJ: so you can write the instructions to set up a prosody for modern clients, including AD integration and a web client, on a napkin?
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  171. MattJ Most likely, yes
  172. MattJ And if you ask why not already done - everyone has a different set of requirements
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  174. MattJ You may think it, but not every organisation uses AD, or needs/wants a web client
  175. jonasw Seve/SouL, I agree that a hosted thing which allowed to easily add a domain, have a tickoption "[ ] Federate with other servers" and otherwise just deploys a modern XMPP server would be great, but time & money
  176. jonasw I doubt that one can write down the instructions for integrating with LDAP on a napkin.
  177. jonasw picking auth_ldap vs. auth_ldap2 is a non-trivial choice to start with :)
  178. Ge0rG MattJ: I know how complex it is to set up a prosody instance for non-commercial users, with less strict requirements. And it won't fit on a napkin.
  179. MattJ jonasw, Prosody's LDAP module was designed to work with no-to-minimal configuration a typical Debian/Ubuntu LDAP setup
  180. MattJ What I'm saying though is that there is no "standard set-up" (for anything)
  181. MattJ Everyone has their own requirements and stuff they want to configure, including Ge0rG
  182. jonasw there is no standard LDAP setup, from what I can tell :)
  183. jonasw but maybe that’s just me
  184. MattJ There is not, but there are many. The one that Debian tries to encourage you into is one
  185. MattJ If anyone thinks that enterprise deployment of any integrated software fits on the back of the napkin, they're plainly wrong
  186. MattJ The reason things like Slack succeed is precisely because they tend to bypass all that in the beginning
  187. jonasw yeah
  188. Ge0rG MattJ: then people realize how expensive Slack is and want a single-click deployment. And end up with Mattermost
  189. jonasw or rocket.chat
  190. jonasw MattJ, any luck with the MUC nuking?
  191. Ge0rG MattJ: there are some requirements that you can't argue are optional, like 0198, carbons and MAM
  192. MattJ I haven't used Mattermost, but I don't find rocket.chat very high quality software
  193. jonasw MattJ, still it replaced XMPP at the company I work for.
  194. jonasw because of -- among others -- rich text messages (beyond markdown-ish things) for integrated services...
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  196. Guus (I was mentioned here, but can't find the mention in recent history)
  197. Guus (or my client is acting up)
  198. jonasw Guus, I was talking about the webrtc-conference-integration work you are doing
  199. MattJ jonasw, I don't seem able to access the server, so... no
  200. jonasw MattJ, aw, pity
  201. jonasw I’ll try annoying folks in iteam@
  202. Guus ah, yeah. We have Jitsi Meet as an Openfire plugin.
  203. MattJ Technically iteam doesn't manage jabber.org, but there is, umm, significant overlap...
  204. jonasw yupp :)
  205. jonasw (checked the volunteers site on jabber.org, found half of iteam there :))
  206. jonasw so now I’m abusing the better signal/noise ratio in that room for my cause!
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  208. jonasw on a different but related note: I launched https://muclumbus.jabbercat.org/ into public beta today. It’s a replacement for http://search.wensley.org.uk/ . criticism, improvement suggestions, bug reports etc. welcome
  209. jonasw on a different but related note: I launched https://muclumbus.jabbercat.org/ into public beta today. It’s a replacement for http://search.wensley.org.uk/ , so it’s a "search engine" and listing service for public MUCs . criticism, improvement suggestions, bug reports etc. welcome
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  219. Wiktor replacement? ha! hardly... no comic sans! just kidding of course, looks very professional, will it provide a JSON endpoint?
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  223. jonasw Wiktor, thanks, and yes, some type of JSON endpoint which allows to enumerate rooms is on the TODO list
  224. jonasw gotta run now though
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  231. Wiktor great, see ya
  232. Ge0rG Lync is now appending ads to the "missed messages" email. Ads for the Lync mobile app.
  233. goffi jonasw: great ! Is there a way to query this by XMPP ?
  234. Ge0rG jonasw: how comes there is no info about many MUCs?
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  245. Ge0rG jonasw: it's also missing the room name from disco#info :(
  246. Ge0rG something like "Name (<jid>)" in the first line?
  247. Ge0rG I know it's the localpart in 99% of the cases, but I have an agenda to change that.
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  254. Andrew Nenakhov I think we'll be ready to show a working prototype of proper groupchat replacement this week
  255. Andrew Nenakhov With client that will support it too
  256. muppeth jonasw for servers/rooms supporting muc vcard would be nice to include that in the room stats.
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  259. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: that reminds me of the promises the ejabberd team made back then instead of implementing XEP-0198.
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  261. Holger Ge0rG will never forget that.
  262. Andrew Nenakhov Yes, we replaced those too and implemented them in forked ejabberd
  263. Andrew Nenakhov Just not supported in clients yet
  264. Ge0rG Holger: feel free to provide me with a bettter example of XMPP vaporware. MIX doesn't count.
  265. Andrew Nenakhov Groupchat is a much easier problem.
  266. Ge0rG Except it's not.
  267. Kev It's an easy problem. It's the solutions that are easy to get wrong :D
  268. Andrew Nenakhov It is. You might join our group chat when now.
  269. Andrew Nenakhov I can send you invitation if you want
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  271. Holger Ge0rG: They tried stuff and it failed, that's all. I still fail to see the drama.
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  273. Holger Ge0rG: And it's not like 0198 works well.
  274. Ge0rG Holger: the drama is about to making empty promises for years about a feature that's really needed for mobile clients.
  275. Ge0rG Holger: it's got its rough edges, but it works much better than not having it.
  276. Holger Yeah, they've been busy with other stuff.
  277. Kev Who hasn't?
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  279. Ge0rG But I know I'm a highly controversial ultra progressive revoluzzer regarding XMPP support for mobile devices.
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  282. Ge0rG ...or reliable message delivery.
  283. Andrew Nenakhov Actually, we do have progress on this front too.
  284. Andrew Nenakhov ;)
  285. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I'm curious to see your design
  286. Andrew Nenakhov Ok
  287. Andrew Nenakhov Give me a minute
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  290. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, add xsf@xmppdev01.xabber.com to your contact list
  291. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: what will happen then?
  292. Andrew Nenakhov You'll be in our group chat
  293. Andrew Nenakhov Best accessed with Xabber for Web, https://web.xabber.com/develop/
  294. Andrew Nenakhov But we've added backwards compatibility for old clients too.
  295. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I'm interested in the protocol design :)
  296. Andrew Nenakhov Document is in Russian, will take some time to translate
  297. Andrew Nenakhov But basic idea is simple
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  299. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I can handle Russian
  300. Andrew Nenakhov Member sends message to jid of group chat, server resends it to other members
  301. Ge0rG That sounds like GC1 ;)
  302. Andrew Nenakhov For old clients it adds line with name of sender, like, GeOrG: Whatever
  303. Andrew Nenakhov > That sounds like GC1 ;) I actually didn't find specification for that
  304. Andrew Nenakhov Only mention in muc-0045
  305. Wiktor What is received by new clients? is there an extra xml?
  306. Andrew Nenakhov But yeah, so far we didn't encounter anything that would be game breaking by this approach
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  308. Andrew Nenakhov Wiktor, yes
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  311. Wiktor Sounds interesting, and simple, also looking forward for the spec
  312. Andrew Nenakhov Every message is accompanied by jid of sender, and his avatar hash
  313. Andrew Nenakhov Server also fetches username and avatar from members vCards
  314. Andrew Nenakhov User can replace them
  315. Andrew Nenakhov Also server sends a specially formatted presences so clients can differentiate group chats from regular contacts
  316. Wiktor why wasn't resource part of JID reused as a nick? so that this group chat was somehow distinguished from 1:1 chats?
  317. Andrew Nenakhov Because we didn't think it is necessary )
  318. Wiktor got it :)
  319. Andrew Nenakhov And also too many ears were fought on this issue
  320. jonasw goffi, re querying muclumbus via XMPP: not yet, but that’s on my todo
  321. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: do you have a (Russian) spec you can share?
  322. jonasw Ge0rG, many MUCs don’t publish a description, that’s why there is no info
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  324. jonasw Ge0rG, regarding using the room name, many of the top 25 MUCs have a horrible room name (e.g. room name == description); I haven’t found a layout which makes that look nice. I have the data though.
  325. goffi jonasw: cool
  326. jonasw muppeth, could you be more specific regarding the vcard thing? I am reluctant adding third party images on the listing because of the huge potential for abuse.
  327. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, I can share it tomorrow if you don't mind. Too many dirt right now,
  328. jonasw Ge0rG, maybe ellipsizing the room name after 50 characters or something would, but meh.
  329. Andrew Nenakhov We do a room name and separate jid. Jby default client is doing a slug of group name, but it can be redefined
  330. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah, name, description and topic are handled in weird ways. I still think we should promote the name, and my favorite layout would be: > Room Name (jid@domain) > romm description (if different from room name)
  331. jonasw that looks awful, trust me
  332. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: slug-of-groupname is a great way.
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  334. Ge0rG jonasw: one day you'll end up with uuid MUC JIDs.
  335. jonasw there are a few already :)
  336. Kev Swift generates those.
  337. Ge0rG Kev: for public MUCs as well?
  338. Kev Of course not :)
  339. jonasw this is luckily public MUCs only :)
  340. jonasw Ge0rG, hm, reverting to the current layout for room name == room description could work though
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  342. Ge0rG jonasw: I agree with you that most people can't properly define the room name.
  343. Ge0rG There is a bunch of positive exceptions, though.
  344. jonasw Ge0rG, really bad is the case for kuketzblog, which has no description, but a string which should be the description as name
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  346. jonasw Kev, while you’re here, can you fix the room name for this room please?
  347. jonasw it is equivalent to the subject
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  349. Ge0rG I think it's symptomatic for the XSF to not be able to properly apply our own standards.
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  355. Kev I imagine it's someone using a client that's doing silly things.
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  357. Kev Although what the name *should* be, I have no idea.
  358. jonasw "XSF Discussion"?
  359. Kev Indeed, that's what I set it to.
  360. Ge0rG "XMPP Standards Foundation"
  361. jonasw or that
  362. Ge0rG "XMPP Discussion" would be a good one as well
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  365. jonasw Ge0rG, force-reload https://muclumbus.jabbercat.org/
  366. jonasw Ge0rG, xmpp@chat.yax.im is also a bad example regarding room name, by the way
  367. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks! nitpick: name of conversations@conference.siacs.eu is "Conversations", so not strictly equall
  368. jonasw Ge0rG, no, it’s "conversations"
  369. jonasw identities: category='conference' type='text' [en] 'conversations'
  370. Andrew Nenakhov jonasw, list of chats should say "XMPP discussion", and whatever yax.im part is not really important for users once they are in room
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  372. Ge0rG jonasw: changed the xmpp@chat.yax.im name. When will it refresh?
  373. Wiktor hmm... hiding jids in case there is name... it would look like google :)
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  375. jonasw Ge0rG, the about page tells you it takes something about one hour
  376. jonasw Wiktor, I’m considering hiding the JIDs in case there is a name, but then I’ll have to consider how to handle matches inside the JID in the search list
  377. Wiktor personally I would move online users count closer to the name / description. On bigger screens it's hard to read the room name description and count without excessive eye movements :) maybe that's just me :)
  378. Wiktor one way or another big 👍, this service is really good
  379. jonasw thanks
  380. jonasw regarding the online user positioning, I don’t think there’s a good way for that since this is a table :/
  381. jonasw (and I don’t want to move the online count into the text field because it’ll be hard to discover it)
  382. Wiktor yeah, I mean on mobile the data is compressed and it looks good, on laptop the important info (user count) is far away
  383. jonasw on my laptop it’s fine
  384. Ge0rG Have the number to the left
  385. jonasw Ge0rG, would have to trick CSS to make that happen
  386. jonasw not sure if browsers support that
  387. Ge0rG jonasw: what about reordering the table items? Too easy?
  388. jonasw Ge0rG, not accessible
  389. jonasw although, with a table it’d probably work
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  392. jonasw there doesn’t seem to be a way to do this with CSS, but I’ll look into how bad reversing the columns would be
  393. Wiktor did I get this right that there is also planned "room language" to be displayed?
  394. jonasw Wiktor, yes
  395. Wiktor gret
  396. jonasw once servers support that
  397. Wiktor great
  398. Wiktor yes, and once it's set up by room operators
  399. jonasw follow https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2436 and https://issues.prosody.im/1149 :)
  400. jonasw sure
  401. jonasw I need to get back to work on my thesis now though
  402. Wiktor good luck :)
  403. jonasw (which unfortunately isn’t "Enumerating chat rooms in a federated chat network")
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  406. Ge0rG jonasw: you need a better thesis supervisor then.
  407. jonasw Ge0rG, dunno, I find "port this thing so that we can run it on a satellite which’ll be shot into space next year" fine, too
  408. Ge0rG Nobody can compete with satellites...
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  410. jonasw (also, my supervisor is actually an XMPP fan)
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  412. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm an xmpp fan as well, despite what I'm writing, and I'm a certified thesis supervisor. But I don't have satellites... 😒
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  414. jonasw aww
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  429. dwd I've just spent ten minutes debugging ahy this app isn't using SASL2.
  430. dwd No matter what I did, it kept using the urn:xmpp:sasl:1 namespace.
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  432. jonasw then you realized that that IS the SASL2 namespace?
  433. jonasw while the other one would be urn:ietf:something?
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  438. dwd jonasw, Exactly.
  439. dwd jonasw, One day I'll figure out some non-trivial update to SASL2, so the namespace can align properly. :-)
  440. Kev Until the next one.
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  442. Ge0rG which will be the bugfix release.
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  444. Ge0rG what about using `urn:xmpp:sasl2:1` instead?
  445. Zash what about urn:xmpp:sasl2000
  446. dwd Ge0rG, Still a namespace change. No, I think it's doomed to be sasl:1 forever.
  447. Ge0rG "Status: Experimental". Doesn't look very doomed to me.
  448. Ge0rG I wouldn't be surprised if dwd turned out to be the (co)owner of all existing implementations.
  449. edhelas actually XMPP is only made by dwd, everyone else in this chatroom are just multi
  450. edhelas I have a question regarding 0045
  451. jonasw we all do
  452. dwd Ge0rG, Surevine is, I think, for now. Phil Roberts did one in Stanza.io, and I did one in Openfire. Neither's been pushed upstream, which I'd like to rectify.
  453. edhelas muc#roominfo_pubsub, it's not specified in the XEP where this is exposed when set, it would be nice to say that somewhere
  454. dwd (Man there are times I want a +1 for '45, and jonasw, that was one of them)
  455. jonasw edhelas, roominfo_pubsub is a disco#info form field
  456. Steve Kille has left
  457. edhelas ah :D
  458. edhelas let me check that on ejabberd
  459. dwd edhelas, I'd take that one with a pinch of, well, anything. I don't think it has sufficient semantics defined to be useful in an interoperable manner.
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  465. jonasw Ge0rG, your update to the xmpp@chat.yax.im room has propagated :)-
  466. jonasw I don’t find it a good name still, though
  467. Ge0rG jonasw: I still think it should be printed on a t-shirt.
  468. Ge0rG It's a much better description of MUC than anything you'll find in '45
  469. jonasw but not a good descrition of the room
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  475. Ge0rG jonasw: I might reconsider a more on topic name once the current name gets painted onto some official XSF property.
  476. jonasw there is official XSF property?
  477. Ge0rG Like this MUC
  478. Steve Kille has left
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  481. dwd jonasw, All the XEPs, for one thing.
  482. jonasw right, for some reason I was picturing Ge0rG with a spray can in front of a house wall in my head
  483. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  485. jonasw SCHRÖDINGERS CHAT would be a cool tag
  486. Ge0rG jonasw: and a black hoodie. And the only light comes from a MacBook screen
  487. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  488. jonasw itym the apple thing on the back side of the screen
  489. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  490. jonasw which you taped over with a matrix sticker
  491. lskdjf has left
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  495. Ge0rG jonasw: that, too
  496. muppeth has left
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  499. Ge0rG Are we speaking of Matrix or of *the* Matrix, though? 🤔
  500. jonasw that one movie, of course
  501. Ge0rG those three movies which actually are just one movie?
  502. Ge0rG It's complicated™
  503. la|r|ma has joined
  504. jonasw nah, the one movie where people always thing sequels exist
  505. jonasw but they’re wrong
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  520. jonasw do you folks think it would be good to add a specified disco#info/disco#items response (part) which allows things to discover anonymous ways to access MUCs?
  521. jonasw I’m thinking e.g. a disco#info form field which gives the XMPP domain of a service which allows ANONYMOUS login and access to a room
  522. jonasw I’m thinking e.g. a disco#info form field which gives the XMPP domain of a service which allows ANONYMOUS login and access to the room
  523. jonasw that would allow to add a "join in browser" button e.g. for support MUCs where such a facility is available.
  524. MattJ Yes yes yes
  525. edhelas well I think that Movim is now the first XMPP client to make use of muc#roominfo_pubsub /o/
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  528. MattJ edhelas, from which spec?
  529. jubalh has left
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  534. edhelas 0045
  535. MattJ Ha, what... that's been in there since 2006?
  536. edhelas looks like :D
  537. MattJ But there are no details on what it contains
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  547. dwd (More or less what I said earlier)
  548. dwd I suspect it was from the days of "LETS PUBSUB THIS PUB SUB THING!"
  549. Ge0rG So it's a reference to a pubsub node containing a list of the pubsub nodes associated with this MUC?
  550. daniel has left
  551. dwd Ge0rG, Well, that'd make it a collection node, and those are unfashionable now.
  552. Ge0rG because nobody can figure out if it's an item of elements or a list of items of one element each?
  553. edhelas for me it's just pointing to a pubsub node
  554. edhelas that's it
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  558. Ge0rG look, ma! a pubsub node!
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  567. edhelas :p
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  574. Ge0rG So who volunteered to re-do XEP-0357 with messages instead of pubsub, again?
  575. rion has left
  576. MattJ Ge0rG, I don't think XEP-0357 really does use pubsub
  577. rtq3 has joined
  578. Holger Well I see no real problem with the PubSub-like syntax except that it misleads people to believe they could use a standard PubSub component to implement an app server.
  579. Ge0rG It's misleading and it's adding overhead to understanding the protocol
  580. Ge0rG And it isn't even actual PubSub.
  581. Holger I agree, but the question is whether cleaning this up is worth the compat foo you run into.
  582. jubalh has joined
  583. Holger Then again the number of public app servers isn't too large I guess ...
  584. Ge0rG Holger: who would use a public app server anyway?
  585. Holger Er what?
  586. Ge0rG Holger: most clients are bound to use their specific one.
  587. Holger I meant app servers for publicly available clients.
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  592. Ge0rG Holger: if the XMPP server component supports both protocols, there won't be any compat issues
  593. Ge0rG Holger: client devs who start at zero just implement the simple protocol in their app server / clients and be done.
  594. Ge0rG legacy push installations remain as is
  595. Ge0rG legacy authors sick of the pseudo-pubsub switch to the new protocol on a separate host name.
  596. Ge0rG But yes, it's good enough™ and nothing will happen about the status quo.
  597. Ge0rG at least it doesn't have a siacs namespace.
  598. MattJ It will if someone cares enough to write up the new protocol
  599. MattJ If they don't, then sure, it will stay the same because it's deployed and working
  600. Ge0rG and working(*)
  601. Ge0rG walks himself out. It's way too hot to be ranting about things that are good enough™
  602. Holger I just think we have more pressing issues than this syntax weirdness but I won't stop anyone of course.
  603. Zash Rough consensus and running code?
  604. Holger Ge0rG: I totally agree 0357 isn't good enough. It's not enough to implement working push notifications.
  605. Ge0rG Whenever I start reading 0357, and I arrive at the first mention of 0060, my brain phases out.
  606. marmistrz has left
  607. Holger Ge0rG: As for the syntax issue, you then need to decide whether to stick to (non-PubSub) IQs or rely on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html#sect-idm140285094926944 for error processing.
  608. Ge0rG Unfortunately, that first mention is in §1 Introduction.
  609. Holger Yes that §1 'Note:' is insane.
  610. MattJ Ge0rG, in the simple-protocol world, what would your next steps be? How would you implement your app server?
  611. Holger Ge0rG: Purging that 'Note:' would be a good first step IMO.
  612. Zash PubSub supports added payloads in the notification, at least for a <body>
  613. Ge0rG MattJ: I don't understand the current XEP enough to make proper suggestions.
  614. Ge0rG Probably actually implementing the protocol will improve my understanding enough to pinpoint the issues other develoeprs are highlighting for a year or so.
  615. Ge0rG > The full process for enabling notifications requires initializing two separate push services: between the App Client and App Server, and between the App Server and the user's XMPP server. The XEP isn't actually helpful in making its point, either.
  616. Ge0rG The Note in §5 is even more absurd than the one in §1
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  618. Ge0rG I need IBR to provision the push service node? What?
  619. Holger "possible, but not required"
  620. Holger Yes I'd ditch that sentence too.
  621. Ge0rG Holger: please send PRs
  622. Holger Yaxim needs to register with push.yax.im somehow. That's all.
  623. Holger The XEP doesn't tell you how because no need for standardization.
  624. Holger ChatSecure uses some REST calls, Conversations some ad-hoc commands.
  625. Holger Nobody uses IBR, AFAIK :-)
  626. waqas has joined
  627. Ge0rG Holger: somebody needs to streamline that XEP, then.
  628. Holger Yup.
  629. Holger I offered to maintain it back when Lance quit.
  630. Ge0rG Holger: what happened next?
  631. Holger Kev took over -> less work for me -> Holger happy!
  632. j.r has joined
  633. Seve/SouL Seve happy to see Holger happy
  634. Ge0rG Kev: XEP-0357 sucks big time. Please fix.
  635. Ge0rG Holger: you still could send strategic PRs.
  636. Zash Not enough happiness to go around apparently
  637. Holger Probably happier community because I would've suggested adding business rules and whatnot. While I think the general consensus is rather to keep things unspecified in order to not loose flexibility.
  638. Alex has left
  639. Ge0rG Like.. PubSub and IBR
  640. Ge0rG > It is NOT RECOMMENDED to allow in-band modification of push notification content settings. Such operations SHOULD be done out-of-band to prevent privilege escalation. What?
  641. Ge0rG Holger: business rules would be great.
  642. Holger Ge0rG: Forget that configuration stuff. Should also be ditched. It's per-account rather than per-device and the idea seems to be that *users* configure things.
  643. Holger Nobody implements this.
  644. Ge0rG So the XEP creates a smoke-screen of distractions for how to do irrelevant stuff, is using an overengineered protocol for the parts that it *does* specify, and is lacking a description of how to be applied properly?
  645. Ge0rG Am I missing something?
  646. Valerian has left
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  648. daniel Yeah the xep is a lot harder to understand than to implement
  649. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  651. daniel You can write an app server and the client code in a few hours
  652. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  653. daniel But it's pretty bad at communicating what you have to do
  654. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  655. daniel I don't _mind_ the overhead of pubsub. It actually allows you to reuse parts of your library which was probably the reason it does use pubsub Syntax
  656. daniel But it's really distracting and leads you on the wrong path
  657. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  658. Ge0rG daniel: you mean it allows you to reuse parts of your *pubsub library*, provided you have one?
  659. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  660. Ge0rG daniel: as a client developer who implemented it, maybe you can provide some strategic PRs to the XEP to make it less horrible?
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  664. daniel well after three years of trying to get the business rules in and failing i don't really feal like it tbh
  665. daniel so my general recommendation to new comers is just to ignore the fact that it uses pubsub *syntax*
  666. Ge0rG daniel: what was the issue with the business rules?
  667. Ge0rG It can't be *that* hard to get a PR merged?
  668. Ge0rG is naive today.
  669. daniel well if we had a mailinglist / forum / archive that would be searchable it'd be really easy to dig up those threads
  670. MattJ https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html
  671. Ge0rG Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:32:16 +0100 From: Daniel Gultsch <daniel@gultsch.de> To: XMPP Standards <standards@xmpp.org> Subject: [Standards] XEP-0357: Push Notifications is missing business rules section
  672. Ge0rG I don't see any refuseniks on that thread
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  679. MattJ From reading that, it appears to say that every message added to the archive should generate a push? (i.e. almost every chat message)
  680. MattJ Is it meant to imply that's only for when the client is offline?
  681. Ge0rG MattJ: that implies the question what "offline" exactly means.
  682. Ge0rG I think we can agree that we need a push when the client is in 0198 hibernated state. But what if our server stack hasn't noticed a client hibernation event yet?
  683. andy has left
  684. MattJ I've been thinking about pinging more aggressively after an "important" stanza was sent to a client
  685. MattJ i.e. after an important stanza is sent, follow it with a <r> and have a low <60s timeout waiting for the <a>
  686. Holger That's what ejabberd does, except after any stanza (except when it didn't receive the responce to the previous <r/>equest yet).
  687. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, following important stanzas with an <r> is great anyway
  688. daniel MattJ: yes that's the third rule or something
  689. daniel The offline one is the first
  690. MattJ So to clarify, you're saying it should send the message via push even if it believes the client is actively connected?
  691. daniel Only if you haven't received the ack
  692. daniel What Holger said basically
  693. MattJ Ok, just your business rules don't mention anything about acks
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  695. MattJ It makes it seem like the push is unconditionally sent for any message that gets added to the archive
  696. daniel right. yeah that should be clarified. for each push token only one of (a), (b) or (c) applies
  697. Zash Don't it send when CSI is on as well
  698. Ge0rG Don't send the push? Why not?
  699. lskdjf has joined
  700. daniel right. or only for stanzas that actually move down stream
  701. Ge0rG I mean, I'd assume you should send a push whenever a CSI queue flush happens
  702. daniel not for those held back by csi
  703. Kev Surely you want to push especially when CSI is active?
  704. Zash Ge0rG: Send all the time, for every stanza!!!
  705. Kev Because then the user gets to see the notification and can bring their client up to view it.
  706. Zash Doesn't it* maybe
  707. daniel Anyway Holger or Tilo are probably the better people to write it down having actually implemented it
  708. MattJ Kev, you mean "inactive"? :)
  709. daniel I mean I still have it in my head somewhere but I might be forgetting details
  710. Kev When the client is inactive, when CSI is active.
  711. Kev Whatever.
  712. Ge0rG Kev: would you mind giving the XEP over to Holger so we can clean up the mess?
  713. Zash Moar ambiguous!
  714. Ge0rG And by "we" I mean "he" :>
  715. Kev Ge0rG: Patches welcome.
  716. Ge0rG Holger: ^
  717. Kev I think the basic logic is "Wait a bit after a stanza, see if you get an ack from the client, if you don't then send a push notif", right?
  718. Holger Kev: My impression was that you're not happy with business rules.
  719. Holger Kev: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-May/032701.html
  720. Kev I think I said that I was in favour of them, just not normative, didn't I?
  721. Kev heads off to check what he wrote.
  722. Kev Yes, I did :)
  723. Ge0rG > I came up with a somewhat different scheme, which I’d like to also be allowable Yay!
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  726. Holger Another thing that needs addressing is the "ChatSecure case" where the app server basically wants to know whether the notification was triggered by a human-readable message or not.
  727. Holger Or some per-client configuration to limit notifications to only specific types of stanzas.
  728. Ge0rG Holger: what kind of non-human-readable events should trigger push?
  729. Holger Chris suggested this: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-July/033085.html
  730. Ge0rG There is really no excuse for low-priority pushes.
  731. Holger Ge0rG: Jingle calls, any other IQs, or if you try to keep a 0198 session alive, actually any stanza.
  732. Zash Cache stuff maybe?
  733. Ge0rG Holger: jingle calls are high prio
  734. Holger Then again you could argue that keeping the session alive is an ugly hack that needs to be fixed anyway.
  735. Zash Like disco
  736. Ge0rG the only excuse I can see is "okay client, I haven't heard of you in a day now, and I have those 10000000 stanzas for you in my 0198 queue. Please come and fetch them any time soon"
  737. andrey.g has left
  738. Holger Ge0rG: Yes, except that I will do this with a way lower number of stanzas.
  739. Kev Ge0rG: Why not just drop the stanzas?
  740. Kev At that point you're almost guaranteed most are stale.
  741. Ge0rG Kev: because the Gods of XMPP will be mad.
  742. Holger Ge0rG: So IQs should just time out?
  743. Ge0rG Kev: you can't simply drop stanzas from mid-stream, you'd have to terminate the 0198 hibernated session.
  744. Kev Yes, that's what I mean.
  745. Ge0rG Holger: I have no easy answer to that.
  746. Holger Ge0rG: Sending clients should cope with such timeouts? (Currently they don't.)
  747. Holger Ah.
  748. Ge0rG Holger: somebody should write Business Rules.
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  750. Ge0rG Holger: the path of least breakage would be to low-prio-push the client on an incoming IQ, yes. The better long-term solution would be to respond from the server.
  751. Ge0rG Maybe a mid-way would be to kill the 0198 zombie on an incoming full-JID IQ ;)
  752. Valerian has left
  753. Holger Long-term I'd ditch the 0198 session.
  754. Valerian has joined
  755. Holger Right now we this will break notifications for MUC messages.
  756. Ge0rG Holger: but session establishment is expensive
  757. Holger That should be fixed.
  758. Ge0rG In addition to roster versioning, we'd need presence versioning.
  759. Holger I think Kev argued that way and I agree on this.
  760. Holger But I'd like to make push notifications work before the year 2025 and I think we need the 0198 hack until then.
  761. Ge0rG I think somebody proposed to treat XMPP IM as a database synchronization problem, some time ago
  762. Ge0rG Holger: I agree
  763. Kev By the 198 hack, do you mean sending of <r/> or killing sessions?
  764. Holger Kev: Keeping sessions alive for disconnected push clients.
  765. Ge0rG So yes, I'm convinced we need two push priority types.
  766. Holger Kev: Mostly to get MUC notifications.
  767. daniel > I think somebody proposed to treat XMPP IM as a database synchronization problem, some time ago Isn't that matrix?
  768. Kev Sorry, I've suddenly realised I've missed a whole part of this.
  769. Kev Ah, MUC, right.
  770. Kev Yes, MUC doesn't work with multi-client. We should replace it. Let's call the replacement MIX )
  771. Kev :)
  772. Ge0rG daniel: I didn't say *distributed* database sync.
  773. Holger An alternative might be implementing some other hack to keep you joined.
  774. goffi has left
  775. Holger Kev: "But I'd like to make push notifications work before the year 2025"
  776. Ge0rG Kev: yes, let's also add a dozen of unrelated features into it to make it hard to implement.
  777. Kev I don't think anything in it is unrelated :)
  778. Kev But yes, we don't have MIX right now. Hacks until then seems likely.
  779. Ge0rG Are there any experience values on the delivery jitter of low-prio pushes on iOS? They are deemed "unreliable"
  780. goffi has joined
  781. Holger Ge0rG: Seems to vary a lot. I think it depends on things such as the current battery level, on the notification rate, on how frequently you use the app, on the moon and who knows what.
  782. Zash has left
  783. Ge0rG Holger: let me rephrase my question: is the median latency of low-prio push sufficient to obtain IQ results without the remote side timing out, typically?
  784. Holger Ge0rG: I.e. on some devices, silent notifications seem mostly reliable; other users seem to never receive them; others are in between.
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  791. Ge0rG Is there some kind of distribution curve on the notifications that do arrive?
  792. Holger Ge0rG: Dunno numbers, but either way you can't rely on it. So ejabberd actually won't let low-prio pushes trigger a timeout of the pending 0198 session. But yes the IQ will time out.
  793. Dave Cridland has left
  794. Kev daniel / Holger: To check I understand, the rules here are basically: * Make sure the server has a list of all clients/push requirements and a map from these to sessions * On a new pushable event, send for everything that doesn't have a session, or where the session isn't sufficiently responsive And that's the crux of it?
  795. daniel Kev: yes
  796. Valerian has left
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  798. Kev In terms of normative text, the 'know who I am' seems sensibly normative, and the 'responsive sessions' seems like a suggestion to me.
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  800. Holger Yes.
  801. Holger A suggestion that could go into 0198 I guess.
  802. Kev Ah, no, that's different.
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  805. Kev You both want Push to say "If it's not responsive, send anyway" and then you might want 198 to say "terminate if unresponsive", but those aren't the same.
  806. Holger Ok.
  807. SaltyBones has left
  808. Kev Don't you?
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  820. Holger Yes I agree. Sometimes I'm easy to convince :-)
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  838. Ge0rG Holger: so you just agreed to write down all the biz rules? Great!
  839. Ge0rG !praise Holger
  840. Zash ^C^V Kevs sumary?
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  855. Ge0rG It's confusing how Conversations is both #1 and #6 of the MUC list.
  856. jonasw will be better once we have language information
  857. jonasw which was the dino MUC again?
  858. Ge0rG chat@dino.im IIRC
  859. jonasw this is weird
  860. Ge0rG It is. And the domain isn't even a MUC domain, breaking poezio's MUC discovery.
  861. jonasw yeah
  862. jonasw not only poezios
  863. MattJ -version dino.im
  864. Bunneh MattJ: dino.im is running Prosody version 0.10.0 on Linux
  865. MattJ ducks
  866. Zash Component "chat@dino.im" "muc" ?
  867. Zash hides
  868. jonasw Zash, seems more like modules_enabled = {"muc"} to me
  869. Ge0rG points at `@conference.jabber.org`
  870. jonasw no, the domain doesn’t expose the muc feature
  871. Zash jonasw, don't think you can do that
  872. Zash jonasw, you can make a bare jid a component tho
  873. jonasw super-weird thing
  874. Zash disco integration might not work tho, maybe we should fix that
  875. jonasw at least the disco#items isn’t confusing
  876. jonasw please don’t
  877. Zash -contact prosody.im
  878. Bunneh Zash: prosody.im doesn't have any contact addresses
  879. Ge0rG What about forbidding such corner cases?
  880. Zash Ge0rG, ytho
  881. jonasw Ge0rG, you might wanna destroy dino@chat.yax.im btw
  882. Ge0rG There really is no reason to allow joining a bare JID MUC, or to have a MUC on a non-MUC domain.
  883. jonasw Ge0rG, I agree on the former, but not necessarily on the latter
  884. Ge0rG Info> Room dino@chat.yax.im destroyed
  885. jonasw \o/
  886. Ge0rG Okay, it's breaking assumptions that need to be shaken up from time to time. But I'm pretty sure we have enough corner cases for client devs to care about, without adding such oddities
  887. Zash Is there really anything in the protocol that forbids it tho?
  888. Ge0rG No.
  889. jonasw if the disco#items were correct (i.e. contained the MUC), it might be okay actually
  890. Zash jonasw, that's what I was referring to for fixing
  891. jonasw yeah
  892. jonasw I’m not that scared of the result anymore
  893. jonasw I’m scared though what’ll happen when conference.jabber.org is fixed.
  894. jonasw that’ll be some serious amount of data :)
  895. Ge0rG I hope we are going to end up with less Conversations on the top 10 list.
  896. Zash Isn't it in dire need of some spring cleaning?
  897. jonasw Zash, very dire, very need
  898. jonasw Ge0rG, I doubt that
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  901. Zash The existence of conversations@conference.confersations.im is especially confusing
  902. Zash covfefesations
  903. jonasw Ge0rG, but if that bothers you, maybe you could go and find more MUC servers :)
  904. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#disco-service-features "The service MUST return its identity and the features it supports."
  905. Ge0rG jonasw: what's the default nickname of Christopher?
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  907. Ge0rG Maybe it should be called Chatstopher?
  908. jonasw Ge0rG, it doesn’t join at the moment, but it defaults to '-C. Muclumbus'
  909. Ge0rG jonasw: did you pre-populate it with the MUC domains from the old muc search?
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  912. jonasw no, the old muc search is kaputt
  913. jonasw GDPR’d
  914. jonasw I used the compliance tester
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  916. jonasw added all domains and I have a recursive disco#items explorer going
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  918. Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/blob/master/res/values/servers.xml#L124
  919. jonasw neat
  920. Zash and xmpp.net
  921. jonasw let’s insert those
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  923. Ge0rG jonasw: you can also feed the explorer with the `xmpp_servers` array as well
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  925. jonasw indeed
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  927. jonasw meh, again I wish that postgresql had a INSERT ... ON CONFLICT IGNORE thing
  928. jonasw oh on conflict do nothing
  929. Zash Oh is that the thing preventing us from having nice things with postgres?
  930. Zash Was that the thing SQLite has?
  931. intosi https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/sql-insert.html
  932. Ge0rG I think SQLite has some ON CONFLICT that you can configure when *creating* the table
  933. intosi You mean ike the insert into table ... ON CONFLICT DO NOTHING mentioned?
  934. jonasw intosi, except that I’m on postgres 9.4, yes
  935. intosi No time like the present for an upgrade then ;)
  936. jonasw ahaha
  937. jonasw that is a ratstail of things for which I’ll need a weekend or so
  938. jonasw intosi, did you have any chance to look into @conference.jabber.org?
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  940. intosi No.
  941. jonasw Ge0rG, thanks, that brought a few new domains
  942. intosi Between a server upgrade, other work things, and not stopping my beloved keyboard from drinking coffee, I had few cycles left.
  943. jonasw (bit over a hundred or so)
  944. jonasw intosi, no worries :)
  945. jonasw also, sorry for your keyboard
  946. jonasw (just wanted to make sure I finally found someone with +w on the right box)
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  948. Ge0rG jonasw: glad I could help
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  950. jonasw oh right
  951. Ge0rG jonasw: I might also extract some (non-public?) domain lists from s2s logs, spam bot logs etc.
  952. jonasw maybe
  953. jonasw we need to do something about the invalid data form used by XEP-0157 though
  954. Ge0rG Unfortunately I don't have the full search.wensley.org.uk dump any more.
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  964. jonasw could someone take a quick look on whether this is editorial or not? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/650/files
  965. jonasw I feel it is because the form specification in the document already specicfies list-multi
  966. Zash I don't think the type attr is required on type=submit (?) forms
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  969. Zash They'd seem redundant since in most cases you are sending it to the entitiy you got the form from
  970. jonasw indeed. type is MAY
  971. jonasw damnit
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  974. Zash Doesn't hurt for readability tho
  975. Kev jonasw: I would argue not editorial, it's changing protocol.
  976. Kev Or, at least, if you're ever in doubt, just throw it up to Council.
  977. jonasw Kev, I’m also wrong, I’m going to close the PR.
  978. Kev I'm not even sure that change is 'right', is it?
  979. jonasw it is not wrong (type is MAY)
  980. Kev One doesn't give the type on a result generally.
  981. jonasw but it’s not required either way
  982. jonasw > For data forms of type "form", each <field/> element SHOULD possess a 'type' attribute that defines the data "type" of the field data (if no 'type' is specified, the default is "text-single"); fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well.
  983. Kev Indeed.
  984. Kev So I'd argue that examples containing it is likely to lull people into a false sense of security that they don't have to correlate.
  985. jonasw yay, that spawned aioxmpp issue number 200
  986. jonasw yupp, gonna retract the PR
  987. Zash Hm, if a submitted form has conflicting field types, how loudly should you cry?
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  1073. pep. I'm trying to organize an XMPP sprint ("hackathon", whatever suits you) in Cambridge UK around August (dates TBD). Topics are also TBD. Please join xmpp:xmpp-sprint@chat.cluxia.eu?join if interested :)
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  1078. pep. https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/gSOmgqjDKPIBQmeK41-Log/9wCZoyjHTNX07IrrYaJTSbcV/ as a preview, I still have a few info to put in there
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  1102. Alex hey guys, lets start our member meeting in 3 minutes
  1103. Guus The suspense!
  1104. Alex bangs the gavel
  1105. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-05-29
  1106. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  1107. Alex as you can see, 33 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  1108. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
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  1110. Alex new and returning members, you can see teh application page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2018
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  1112. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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  1114. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do os now?
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  1116. Guus (sound of crickets)
  1117. Zash s/crickets/suspensfullness/
  1118. Alex looks like none, then I will start counting the vote snow ;-)
  1119. Alex now
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  1123. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  1124. Zash Drumroll!
  1125. Alex when you reload teh page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-05-29#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
  1126. Alex you can see the results
  1127. Alex all reappliers were accepted, and we had no new applicants this term
  1128. Alex congrats to everyone
  1129. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
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  1131. dwd I'd like to say thanks to Alex for a job well done as usual.
  1132. Zash seconded
  1133. Guus Thanks Alex!
  1134. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  1135. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  1136. dwd Seconded.
  1137. Alex bangs the gavel
  1138. moparisthebest out of curiousity has a vote ever resulted in a member not being renewed or accepted?
  1139. Alex thanks everyone. Will update the lists tomorrow in the AM and send out the results to the lost
  1140. dwd moparisthebest, Yes!
  1141. Alex moparisthebest: yes
  1142. Seve/SouL Congratulations everyone, good news
  1143. moparisthebest how did that happen? do you just really annoy other members or what? :P
  1144. Zash Other than the time nobody knew bears real name?
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  1147. dwd Zash, There was that, and, erm... Solaris? I can't think of the nickname he used.
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  1149. Alex bear is the famous one ;-)
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  1165. bear yes, I am the example everyone remembers about my membership being denied :)
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  1170. Seve/SouL bear: why so? (I do not know the story)
  1171. Zash The tale
  1172. bear the membership application didn't used to have a real name part, and I go by "bear" everywhere including email
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  1174. bear so when I forgot to update my application people properly didn't vote for me to stay as a member
  1175. bear my application had "Mike Taylor" IIRC and some folks were not making the connection - trying to remember all of the details
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  1177. Seve/SouL bear: ohh I completely understand. I'm glad to know it went like this and not in a bad way heh :)
  1178. Seve/SouL Thanks for explaining!
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  1215. edhelas I'm actually replying to some questions regarding XMPP on his thread, if you see some weird things do not hesitate to correct me https://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/8myh78/movim_responsive_webbased_social_xmpp_client/
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