Friday, June 01, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[02:19:25] <Steve Kille> I sent an email reply to the list.
[02:19:47] <Steve Kille> Agree that option 3 is the worst choice.
[02:20:23] <Steve Kille> Jonas has convinced me that we should stick with option1.
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[10:05:37] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[10:10:49] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[10:15:42] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:18:26] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
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[10:25:42] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[10:26:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:26:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[11:35:19] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[11:45:34] <Ge0rG> It looks like the #1 reason for CSI/push waking up my iFruit device is IQs from different contacts
[11:46:30] *** andy shows as "xa"
[11:46:42] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
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[11:49:25] <daniel> Oh yeah. Answering boring IQ or holding them back is something csi is currently really missing out on
[11:49:40] <daniel> That's like the number one reason my phone wakes up as well
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[12:00:31] <jonasw> which IQs are those typically?
[12:01:11] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[12:01:12] <Zash> And can we cache them on the server?
[12:01:50] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[12:02:29] *** andy shows as "online"
[12:03:17] <daniel> Disco probably
[12:03:40] <Zash> Disco can definitively be cached
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[12:16:27] <Ge0rG> Jun 01 14:16:17 c2s56530a2a26a0 debug #queue = 40
Jun 01 14:16:17 c2s56530a2a26a0 debug hibernating, stanza queued
Jun 01 14:16:17 c2s56530a2a26a0 debug Invoking cloud handle_notify_request() for smacks queued stanza
Jun 01 14:16:17 yax.im:cloud_notify debug Sending push notification for georg@yax.im to push.monal.im (7D87E8CC-0C18-4579-A69C-6C513BF921FB)
[12:16:30] *** jonasw shows as "away"
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[12:16:43] <Ge0rG> Hm. No idea what that was
[12:16:53] <jonasw> Kev, so, in variant 2, when sending a message to an occupant (<channel>@<service>/<user id>), that would not be carbon-copied or archived under XMPP 2.0 rules, right?(
[12:16:58] <jonasw> because the recipient is a full JID
[12:17:40] <jonasw> this is a super-messy complex design space
[12:19:51] <Ge0rG> It's also great how prosody marks CSI as active when a session gets hibernated.
[12:20:17] <Ge0rG> So immediately _after_ hibernation, the CSI queue is flushed and the device is woken up via push
[12:20:53] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[12:23:54] <MattJ> Ge0rG, it hurts when you say "Prosody"
[12:24:07] <MattJ> It's a community module not maintained by us, fork it
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[12:24:53] <Ge0rG> MattJ: It's also sad how prosody doesn't support any of the features needed for a battery-friendly not-message-losing mobile experience.
[12:25:09] <Ge0rG> Does that sound better now?
[12:25:31] <MattJ> That one I'll take on the chin
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[12:27:41] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I can understand that you don't want to feel responsible to the messy code that just happens to be hosted on your infrastructure, but from a server admin point of view, that distinction doesn't make much sense.
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[12:29:41] <Ge0rG> Even mod_firewall is merely a community module.
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[12:31:25] <Zash> THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND,
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, etc
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[12:32:54] <moparisthebest> BUT USERS WILL COMPLAIN
[12:33:27] <jonasw> that’s software vendors "HATERS WILL HATE"?
[12:33:40] <jonasw> that’s software vendors’ "HATERS WILL HATE"?
[12:33:41] <Zash> Humans gonna human
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[12:36:46] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[12:40:50] <Ge0rG> Okay, being in a dozen of MUCs and having a hundred of contacts actually means:
182 wake-ups per hour due to <r/> requests
130 wake-ups per hour due to <iq>
65 wake-ups per hour due to messages
13 "wake-ups" per hour due to responding to <r/> from the client
[12:41:26] *** mikaela shows as "online"
[12:41:36] <Zash> I have zero wake-ups per hour due to <r/>
[12:42:07] <Ge0rG> Not using smacks? :P
[12:42:10] <Zash> Nope
[12:42:18] <Zash> CSI + MAM
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[12:44:29] <MattJ> Ge0rG, FWIW prosody-modules was originally intentionally not hosted on our infrastructure
[12:44:33] <MattJ> However Google Code shut down
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[12:49:18] <Ge0rG> MattJ: yes, it was a huge hit to many OSS projects.
[12:49:47] *** andy shows as "xa"
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[12:50:41] <Ge0rG> Oh, yes. It looks like most of the IQ traffic is disco#info indeed.
[12:50:54] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you might wanna try that thing Link Mauve did
[12:51:06] <Ge0rG> jonasw: ah, that thing Link Mauve did. Right.
[12:51:12] <Ge0rG> What are you talking about? 🤔
[12:51:14] <jonasw> which answers on behalf of the client
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[12:51:16] <Zash> The Thing™
[12:51:19] <jonasw> for disco#info if they publish caps
[12:51:23] <Zash> jonasw: disco#info cache?
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[12:52:22] <Ge0rG> MattJ: my intention really isn't to assign blame to anyone, all I wish for is to have a better server so that my father-in-law can finally receive my messages.
[12:52:46] <Link Mauve> Oh, I also want that, for all of my users.
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[12:53:03] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: for your users to receive your messages? Thought about writing a blog? :P
[12:53:11] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: where can I find The Thing™?
[12:53:11] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[12:53:38] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, https://modules.prosody.im/ and search for "caps".
[12:54:00] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_cache_c2s_caps.html ?
[12:54:06] <MattJ> Ge0rG: that's my intention also, believe me
[12:54:18] <Link Mauve> And this one to actually do something: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_auto_answer_disco_info.html
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[12:55:00] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: how beta is that combo? will it work on 0.10?
[12:55:25] <Link Mauve> I only tested it on trunk, and haven’t deployed it to any big service.
[12:55:30] <Link Mauve> I only tested it on trunk, and haven’t deployed it to any big service yet.
[12:55:39] <Link Mauve> So very beta.
[12:55:40] *Ge0rG crosses fingers.
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[12:59:06] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: it doesn't look like it's doing anything.
[12:59:35] <Ge0rG> Or does it require the client to re-login first?
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[12:59:59] <Link Mauve> Hmm, it shouldn’t.
[13:00:04] <Link Mauve> Oh.
[13:00:07] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:00:12] <Link Mauve> Yes, the cache thing needs it to publish its caps.
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[13:01:05] <Ge0rG> And now my re-logged-in client returns empty disco#info
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[13:01:58] <Ge0rG> Whoops, why did it change the resource?!
[13:02:39] <Ge0rG> Jun 01 15:01:45 yax.im:auto_answer_disco_info debug Answering disco#info on the behalf of georg@yax.im/Monal-iOS.79
[13:02:44] <Ge0rG> it looks like it's working.
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[13:03:45] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: could you please change the module:log into session.log everywhere?
[13:03:46] *** muppeth shows as "online"
[13:04:24] <Link Mauve> Sure, is that the new preferred way to log things?
[13:04:30] <Ge0rG> Also, is the cache per-JID or is it global per-node?
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[13:05:30] <Ge0rG> oh, it's a per-full-JID one-item cache, right?
[13:05:38] <Link Mauve> Per-JID, because of issues with 0115.
[13:05:48] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: good job
[13:05:49] <Link Mauve> Correct, only the last one.
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[13:07:39] <Link Mauve> I tried to implement that quite defensively.
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[13:08:11] <Ge0rG> So I've loaded it now on yax.im. Will complain loudly (as I always do) if it fails.
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[13:08:31] <Ge0rG> Also seems to work, except for the module:logging instead of session logging.
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[13:14:37] <Kev> > Kev, so, in variant 2, when sending a message to an occupant (<channel>@<service>/<user id>), that would not be carbon-copied or archived under XMPP 2.0 rules, right?

That's about the address it's too, not from. It's to the user's bare JID, so it gets archived (and carbons aren't a thing any more under the new rules)
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[13:15:58] <Kev> And yes, it's a complex space.
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[13:47:11] <jonasw> Kev, I mean on the sender side. I send a 1:1 message to an occupant in a MIX, so to <channel>@<service>/<user id>. This is to a full JID (even though in MIX context, it has the semantics of a bare JID), so it would not get carbon-copied or archived on my side
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[13:52:34] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[13:54:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:55:19] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[13:55:54] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[13:55:57] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[13:58:18] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[13:59:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:01:16] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:01:16] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:01:50] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:02:13] <Kev> In variant 2 that's a problem, yes. I don't think it's a problem with variant 4.
[14:02:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
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[14:02:32] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:03:11] *** Alex shows as "online"
[14:03:11] *** rion shows as "online"
[14:04:24] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[14:04:25] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:04:25] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:04:27] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[14:05:29] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:05:47] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[14:07:43] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:08:27] <Ge0rG> In XEP-0357, does a client need to enable push notification on its server once or once per login?
[14:08:31] *** Wiktor shows as "online"
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[14:08:50] <Zash> per login IIRC
[14:09:03] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:09:30] <Zash> It's per client/session, and there's no client tracking in servers (yet?)
[14:09:30] <Ge0rG> How is the client supposed to be woken up if it's not connected?
[14:10:02] <Zash> It .. persists?
[14:11:05] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:11:05] <Ge0rG> So the push remains even after the session is dead?
[14:11:05] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:11:10] <Zash> Yes
[14:11:38] *** tux shows as "online"
[14:11:50] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:11:54] <daniel> Technically you wouldn't have to register on every login. You just do so the server can map a push target to a session
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[14:12:05] <daniel> And *not* notify an active session
[14:12:07] <Ge0rG> How does prosody^W that community thing handle it?
[14:12:23] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[14:13:47] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[14:14:24] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
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[14:18:03] *** rion shows as "online"
[14:19:06] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[14:19:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:20:10] <MattJ> afaik it expects the client to register every login
[14:20:52] <Ge0rG> what happens after the session got hibernated and then destroyed?
[14:21:28] <MattJ> https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/6abee021d9db/mod_cloud_notify/business_rules.markdown
[14:22:43] <Ge0rG> that document essentially writes that as soon as the session is hibernated, it's woken up by push.
[14:23:18] <Ge0rG> but not what happens on destruction
[14:23:27] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[14:23:59] <Ge0rG> oh, the b) part.
[14:24:00] <Ge0rG> But I don't see that in my logs.
[14:24:00] <Zash> Is this where I dig up something you said about mod_pinger to use as proof that you want the client woken up all the time? ;)
[14:24:53] <pep.> >Ge0rG> my intention really isn't to assign blame to anyone, all I wish for is to have a better server so that my father-in-law can finally receive my messages.
That one thing we all wish for on an IM protocol, for users to receive our messages :)
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[14:26:08] <Ge0rG> Zash:
> I could well live with mod_pinger completely ignoring 0198 sessions (as outlined in the first comment to this issue).
[14:27:30] *** SaltyBones has left the room
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[14:52:24] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[15:21:07] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
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[15:31:26] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[15:59:10] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
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[16:06:56] *** georg shows as "online"
[16:07:32] *** daniel has left the room
[16:08:23] *** georg shows as "online"
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[16:09:46] *** Valerian has left the room
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[16:09:48] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:16:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:21:19] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[16:23:18] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Bath"
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[16:27:58] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[16:29:33] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Weekend"
[16:31:11] *** rtq3 has left the room
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[16:38:08] *** muppeth shows as "online"
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[16:45:51] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[16:46:09] *** Guus has left the room
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[16:46:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[17:00:53] *** daniel has left the room
[17:03:04] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[17:06:33] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:06:54] *** blabla shows as "online"
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[18:01:26] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
[18:01:52] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[18:22:35] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[18:32:35] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:32:54] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:33:21] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:35:27] *** UsL shows as "chat" and his status message is "wat"
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[18:38:57] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
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[18:55:01] <Ge0rG> https://upload.yax.im/upload/ry1sb7gR9MLW98BL/Screenshot_20180601-200703.png - exactly what I imagined with PARS.
[19:06:30] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[22:35:17] <Zash> Ge0rG: Didn't you have pretty much that but for yaxim? And doesn't daniel have pretty much that for Conversations?
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[22:52:33] <Ge0rG> Zash: except ours is interoperable with other clients and platforms
[22:52:58] <Zash> but but the lock-in!!
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