Friday, June 08, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:13:16] <daniel> Link Mauve: to answer your question from yesterday. I'm not interested in bookmarks 2 per se but I'm interested in moving bookmarks to pep asap.
[07:14:05] <daniel> And I'm afraid bookmarks 2 is uncharted territory for a lot of reasons and harder to pull of then 48-on-pep
[07:14:40] <daniel> With only marginal improvements over 48-on-pep
[07:15:39] <Andrew Nenakhov> Do bookmarks have any other use besides storing user's MUCs?
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[07:19:05] <jonasw> Andrew Nenakhov, I think some web folks put website bookmarks in there. Movim and SáT maybe
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[07:48:59] <Link Mauve> jonasw, Movim and SàT put PubSub URIs AFAIK.
[07:49:03] <Link Mauve> jonasw, Movim and SàT put PubSub URIs there AFAIK.
[07:49:17] <Link Mauve> Not web ones, but xmpp: ones.
[07:49:35] <Link Mauve> daniel, that’s also my view of it.
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[07:51:59] <edhelas> I moved my pubsub uris back to a "non standard" pep node for now
[07:52:45] <edhelas> because it was creating conflicts with the clients that are starting to put bookmarks in PEP (all the list in one item) clearing out the Pubsub URIs that Movim saved
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[07:53:12] <jonasw> ah yes, that’s also a nice issue with everything-in-one-item
[07:53:23] <jonasw> it becomes tricky to deal with elements you don’t know, because normally in XMPP you can just drop them
[07:53:30] <jonasw> it becomes tricky to deal with elements you don’t know, because normally in XMPP (as a client) you can just drop them
[07:53:32] <jonasw> in this case you need to preserve them
[07:53:35] <edhelas> yup
[07:53:55] <jonasw> this would be much easier with one-item-per-bookmark, because you can just ignore items you don’t know and only update those you do know
[07:54:46] <daniel> jonasw: if it's just about that you can very easily do that with regular bookmarks as well
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[07:54:57] <daniel> Conversations just ignores anything it doesn't know
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[07:55:15] <jonasw> it /can/ be done, but it’s not straightforward
[07:55:37] <Ge0rG> I want to have bookmarklets, which can execute code in the context of the current MUC.
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[07:56:07] <jonasw> yeah, I’m pretty sure that aioxmpp drops everything not in XEP-0048
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[07:56:23] <Wiktor> Ge0rG: what would they exactly do? send some text?
[07:56:28] <jonasw> so if you’re using neither <url/> nor <conference/>, it gets lost
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[07:59:31] <Link Mauve> Wiktor, for instance your password.
[07:59:47] <Link Mauve> I remember both Jappix and Empathy were victims of such RCE.
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[08:01:15] <Wiktor> Oh, I didn't get the joke.
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[08:01:32] <Link Mauve> :p
[08:01:45] <Wiktor> I was thinking about mIRC scripts ;)
[08:02:04] <jonasw> do I want to know, Link Mauve?
[08:02:06] <jonasw> (yes, I do)
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[08:02:55] <Link Mauve> jonasw, https://usn.ubuntu.com/1250-1/
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[08:03:16] <jonasw> ah, but that wasn’t about bookmarks
[08:03:22] <Link Mauve> Basically, /nick <img src=invalid onerror="alert('Hello world!')">
[08:03:26] <Link Mauve> Ah, no.
[08:03:38] <jonasw> good ol’ HTML nicknames
[08:04:08] <Link Mauve> I wouldn’t exclude bookmark names from being vulnerable to that kind of things, in web clients. ^^'
[08:04:27] <Link Mauve> … I should have such a bookmark in my test account!
[08:04:29] <jonasw> gotta love the web
[08:04:33] <jonasw> clever
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[09:36:17] <goffi> https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub ==> and now they re-invent something on activityPub, it's a pitty to see coming a missed occasion for XMPP, once again.
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[09:37:25] <jonasw> goffi, is it missed already though?
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[09:37:59] <goffi> if gitlab, gogs and gittea are following, pretty much yes.
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[09:38:43] <jonasw> although, I can’t blame web applications for not wanting to run another daemon
[09:39:05] <jonasw> we’d need a proper solution for stabily running a client or server or component in common web frameworks
[09:39:16] <jonasw> goffi, maybe you could contribute there and turn it around?
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[09:41:02] <goffi> jonasw: I'm already working on XMPP based web framework, and I'm doing it on my freetime, I can't fight at all fronts.
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[10:55:34] <Ge0rG> Dark corners of XMPP. Lection #23: prosody will put 0184 ACKs from some clients into MAM, but not from others. It depends on whether they are type=chat.
[10:55:35] <Bunneh> Ge0rG: Submit first draft of Mobile Considerations #23
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/23
[10:55:42] <Ge0rG> Bunneh: Uhm, no.
[10:56:22] <jonasw> :D
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[10:57:47] <Ge0rG> Same for Carbons. At least it's consistent.
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[10:57:56] <jonasw> now that’s
[10:57:59] <jonasw> now that’s news
[10:58:37] <daniel> Ge0rG: are carbons ever type Chat though?
[10:58:49] <Ge0rG> daniel: dunno. Weren't you sending chat carbons?
[10:59:17] <daniel> Ge0rG: why would I send carbons of any type?
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[10:59:27] <Ge0rG> if not(orig_type == "chat" or (orig_type == "normal" and stanza:get_child("body")) ) then you_shall_not_carbon_mam(); end
[10:59:33] <Ge0rG> Oh, wait.
[10:59:48] <Ge0rG> daniel: I mean: Weren't you sending chat *acks*?
[11:00:00] <Ge0rG> Same holds true for markers and any other bodyless messages.
[11:00:12] <Holger> Type chat without body should be carboned but not MAM-stored right?
[11:00:15] <daniel> Ja deliberately make them type chat yes
[11:00:33] <Ge0rG> Holger: who said that=
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[11:00:39] <Holger> The XEPs?
[11:00:52] <Ge0rG> CSNs are defined as `chat`.
[11:00:58] <Ge0rG> Holger: now you make me sad.
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[11:01:38] <flow> Ge0rG, have a cookie
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[11:01:42] <Ge0rG> Holger: sad because of https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434
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[11:02:35] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do some work on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html
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[11:03:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: sure, when MIX is finished.
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[11:03:10] <jonasw> since when do you care about MIX?
[11:03:11] <Holger> Ge0rG: Ah, routing 2.0 will fix everything.
[11:03:57] <Ge0rG> Holger: 0280 rules tl;dr are "a server may do anything, or not do it, or make demons fly out of your nose and be compliant"
[11:04:24] <Ge0rG> 0313 only asks for <body> messages to be archived
[11:04:44] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure why anybody would want to archive any <chat> messages.
[11:04:51] <jonasw> I am reading that xep for the first time now, and I like how it handles the NG vs. non-NG interop
[11:05:13] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it's really intriguing, I'll need to think it through thoroughly
[11:05:42] <jonasw> Kev has done some good work there, I expected much less given the time frame in which it was done.
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[11:05:47] <Holger> Ge0rG:
> I'm not sure why anybody would want to archive any <chat> messages.

You mean why people would *not* want to archive bodyless chat messages?
[11:06:13] <Kev> "Kev ... I expected much less"
Story of my life.
[11:06:23] <jonasw> c’mon :)
[11:06:54] <jonasw> do you think we can get a <stanza-id/> in the mandatory reflection to all resources?
[11:06:57] <jonasw> (on the sender side)
[11:07:00] <jonasw> that would be truly amazing
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[11:07:15] <Kev> Yes, but is that MAM or routing?
[11:07:36] <Ge0rG> Holger: No, I mean why people *would* want to archive bodyless chat messages.
[11:08:06] <Holger> Read markers for example?
[11:08:13] <Ge0rG> Holger: also CSNs
[11:08:21] <jonasw> Kev, good question; I would like to have it mandatory for every service implementing MAM though. this avoids us having to namespace-bump MAM.
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[11:08:36] <jonasw> i.e. make it mandatory in IM-NG for a service which also offers any XEP-0313 namespace to put <stanza-id/> in the reflections
[11:08:37] <Ge0rG> Holger: not sure if you heard of it, but MAM storage of CSN made my MAM DB explode and yax.im melt down, just recently
[11:08:57] <Ge0rG> Kev: mandatory stanza IDs for "important" messages are good enough for me, so MAM > routing
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[11:09:55] <Holger> Ge0rG: I haven't, but not storing read markers sucks UX-wise and I'm sure there are more examples.
[11:10:24] <Ge0rG> Holger: so we have two examples now of things that are of the same type but needs to be handled differently. What now?
[11:10:27] <Kev> Holger: I have thoughts on that too, but I've not written them up yet.
[11:10:40] <Ge0rG> ACKs are of type=undefined, so even more meh.
[11:10:43] <Kev> But I think that you want your archive to be collating such things rather than storing verbatim.
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[11:11:18] <Ge0rG> Kev: that sounds like a database synchronization problem. Send deltas, update internal state.
[11:11:28] <Holger> Yes such optimizations would be nice. I'm just saying that throwing this stuff away is not a good solution.
[11:12:04] <jonasw> oh, it’s in there already:
> When reflecting an IM-NG client's outbound bare-JID messages, the server SHOULD reflect the archived version (i.e. after any transforms have taken place).
[11:12:13] <jonasw> IIRC the archived version contains the <stanza-id/>
[11:12:38] <Ge0rG> jonasw: yes, it should
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[11:13:09] <jonasw> it should or it SHOULD?
[11:14:00] <Ge0rG> jonasw: don't ask me these questions please. It's friday and I'm having tremendous "fun" at work already.
[11:14:21] <Ge0rG> I only started this because it bothered me that I didn't see ACKs of messages on my other client.
[11:14:34] <jonasw> here, have a cookie
[11:14:36] <jonasw> 🍪
[11:14:37] <Ge0rG> And there is no easy solution.
[11:14:51] <jonasw> and you should please appreciate that I pasted you a cookie because you know how much that makes my poezio behave weird!
[11:15:20] <Ge0rG> jonasw: sorry, but cookies trigger me since the GDPR faux-compliance of ignorant americans made cookie dialogs look like good UX
[11:15:36] <Ge0rG> really sorry.
[11:15:59] <jonasw> 🍉
[11:16:02] <jonasw> some cool water melon maybe?
[11:16:03] <Ge0rG> jonasw: since running emoji_ascii the situation has considerably improved for me. Except for the jabber❌namespace.
[11:16:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you’re not alone, github does it too: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
[11:16:33] <Ge0rG> it's a rainy 18°C here. But I had to change my munin cpu temp warning threshold from 70° to 80°
[11:17:01] <jonasw> right, I forgot that only Dresden seems to be shielded from the bad^Wgood and plant-saving weather
[11:17:03] <Ge0rG> LOL
[11:17:04] <jonasw>
[11:17:07] <jonasw> then that maybe^?
[11:17:07] <Ge0rG> that made my day.
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[11:17:29] <jonasw> Ge0rG, finally found something good for you \o/
[11:17:46] <Ge0rG> next time somebody complains, I'll point at that issue
[11:17:59] <jonasw> I need to re-write the commit message, because I’m going to be complaining a lot ;-)
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[11:19:31] <Ge0rG> I've had a 1.5h conference call today, where the application owner and me tried to explain to the indian chief developer that exposing an SQL-like API over the internet, with some regex filters strapped on top for access control, just doesn't cut it.
[11:19:45] <Ge0rG> The final words of the app owner were "I hope we are aligned now"
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[11:19:57] <Ge0rG> not sure if it was a command or a threat.
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[11:21:27] <Ge0rG> But back to the topic. Even with IM-NG, we'll still have to define rules for handling of legacy messages
[11:21:35] <Ge0rG> So back to https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434
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[11:22:10] <Ge0rG> Would it make sense to make 0184 and others use type=chat?
[11:22:20] <Ge0rG> or type=<type of what you respond to>?
[11:22:49] <Ge0rG> MUC ACKs should go to the MUC, so that we get O(n²), right?
[11:22:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, the rules are defined in there:
> In order for interoperability with other entities (contacts, remote servers etc.) that don't support IM-NG, old-style full-JID messages also need to be handled. When a server receives a message with type other than than 'groupchat' or 'headline' that does not contain an <im-ng xmlns='urn:xmpp:im-ng:0'> element it is to be routed by the above rules as if they were sent to the bare JID
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[11:23:02] <jonasw> plus:
> Any message that is routed to all IM-NG clients is stored in the MAM archive, where available, and any message that would not be routed to all IM-NG clients is not stored in the MAM archive
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[11:23:50] <jonasw> so if to bare JID => archived and copied. if to full JID and not groupchat and not headline => archived and copied. if to full JID and (groupchat or headline) => routed to full JID
[11:23:58] <Ge0rG> What about CSNs?
[11:24:06] <jonasw> are they of type headline or groupchat?
[11:24:16] <Ge0rG> type=chat.
[11:24:20] <jonasw> archived and copied.
[11:24:24] <Kev> At the Summit we discussed that they should really be presence rather than messages, FWIW.
[11:24:28] <jonasw> I’ll make you a flow chart, Ge0rG.
[11:24:33] <Ge0rG> jonasw: no thanks
[11:24:36] <jonasw> :)
[11:25:02] <jonasw> Kev, that, too
[11:25:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: my question wasn't "what happens to CSNs under these rules". I was able to figur that out on my own, I think. My intention was "what *should* happen to them, as the rules are obviously inadequate"
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[11:25:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, ah, put them into presence
[11:25:30] <jonasw> that seems like a good solution for me
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[11:25:49] <Ge0rG> so the IM-NG server will translate directed presence with a CSN into a message on the border, and back?
[11:25:54] <jonasw> need to think about implications of sending directed presence all the time, but on the first order this seems like a good thingf
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[11:26:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, uh, interesting idea :)
[11:26:06] <Ge0rG> directed presence will get cached on the server, right?
[11:26:09] <jonasw> (but I was actually talking generally. clients should put them into presence)
[11:26:29] <jonasw> directed presence is tricky
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[11:26:40] <Ge0rG> Yeah, so while you are constructing the IM-NG New World Order, I'm not receiving Carbons of my ACKs!
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[11:26:52] <Kev> The other idea I have floating around is having <transient/>, which is rougly <no-store/>, and carefully speccing that a CSN is <transient/>, and that anything that is <transient/> and "shouldn't be" shouldn't be processed by a client.
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[11:27:11] <Kev> So that you can't e.g. inject <transient/> in a chat stanza in order to maliciously evade archiving.
[11:27:21] <jonasw> that sounds quite fragile
[11:27:38] <Ge0rG> > maliciously evade archiving.
That is very evil.
[11:27:41] <Kev> Because <no-store/> that your server listens to and your client doesn't care about is obviously bad.
[11:27:57] <jonasw> but it might be worthwhile to have that
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[11:28:08] <jonasw> I mean provision this in IM-NG so that servers support it right away.
[11:28:10] <Ge0rG> Ephemeral Messages are doomed now.
[11:28:11] <Kev> jonasw: Which that. My floaty idea, or the thing I say is bad?
[11:28:13] <jonasw> and so that clients drop it right away
[11:28:23] <jonasw> your floaty idea
[11:28:37] <Kev> Third idea is that we requisition headline.
[11:28:56] <jonasw> lemme rephrase:
The <transient/> thing sounds a bit fragile, but it might be worthwhile to put that into IM-NG right away because it’s likely that we’ll need such a thing down the road.
[11:28:58] <Kev> But now we're getting into even dodgier territory, potentially.
[11:29:00] <Ge0rG> What about we define a list of rules which messages are to be handled as transient, like in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html#which-messages
[11:29:36] <jonasw> I’m not 100% sure about CSN-in-<presence/> either, because that has interesting implications regarding directed presence and things which do things with directed presence (MUC, Invisible Command, …)
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[11:29:43] <Kev> Ge0rG: Because it's important that we don't have a situation where a server's MAM implementation needs complete knowledge of all standard and non-standard extensions.
[11:29:47] <jonasw> I’m not 100% sure about CSN-in-<presence/> either, because that potentially has interesting implications regarding directed presence and things which do things with directed presence (MUC, Invisible Command, …)
[11:30:00] <jonasw> (again)
[11:30:03] <Kev> But if we go with 'floaty idea', you have more or less that, without the server problem.
[11:30:25] <jonasw> then only the client needs to know about it, and that is probably fine because it needs to know about the message payload anyways to do something sane with it
[11:30:34] <Kev> The server listens to the <transient/> flag, and the client is responsible for checking that a message that should be archived wasn't received without it.
[11:30:42] <Kev> jonasw: Right.
[11:30:58] <Ge0rG> Kev: so that client-side message processing has two stages. Stage 1 is for all messages, and may not add anything to the database, and stage 2 is for non-transient messages only and may add new items?
[11:31:11] <jonasw> what
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[11:31:33] <Ge0rG> And there is a huge fat `// WARNING! NO PERSISTENCE ABOVE THIS COMMENT` line in between?
[11:31:50] <Kev> Ge0rG: There's a few ways one could implement it, but something like that would work.
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[11:32:21] <jonasw> I’d probably go more with: a general stage which works like the servers MAM (i.e. ignore anything with <transient/> on it) and down the road in the pipeline some component might add something to the database in response to a message which was <transient/> if and only if it makes sense to do so
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[11:32:39] <jonasw> but in general you wouldn’t persist <transient/> stuff anyways
[11:32:57] <jonasw> that’s the point of transient. I mean you could have been offline at the time and wouldn’t have gotten the message, so storing it seems not needed in any case
[11:33:04] <Kev> I'd probably go with an initial screen process that rejects any stanza that doesn't verify the right transientness for the present payloads, but yes, any of these work.
[11:33:26] <Kev> (Lot a literal forked process, obviously)
[11:33:30] <Kev> (Not a literal forked process, obviously)
[11:33:48] <jonasw> Kev, I’m going to dump you a bit of commentary on XEP-0409 on the list in a minute btw
[11:33:56] <Kev> Ok. Be kind :)
[11:33:58] <jonasw> will be
[11:34:15] <jonasw> I’ll add a few points I already raised in this discussion so that we have them on-record somewhere
[11:34:18] <Ge0rG> I hope nobody ever asks *me* to be kind on-list :D
[11:34:32] <Ge0rG> jonasw: excellent!
[11:34:34] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why would anyone? you’re the personified kindness.
[11:34:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but not all points, I wasn’t paying attention consistently
[11:35:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: you just grilled my sarcasm detector.
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[11:39:06] <jonasw> Ge0rG, double-strike
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[11:43:06] <jonasw> sent
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[16:34:37] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[16:41:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[16:51:18] *** lumi shows as "online"
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[17:01:21] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:02:03] *** alacer has left the room
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[17:03:43] *** Kev shows as "away" and his status message is "Weekend"
[17:03:47] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[17:13:45] *** Guus has left the room
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[17:37:04] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:37:26] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[17:45:40] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
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[17:52:26] *** marmistrz shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[18:08:28] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:12:22] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:12:32] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[18:14:27] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[18:31:55] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:32:03] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:32:11] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[18:32:19] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[18:34:36] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
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[18:37:01] *** dos shows as "online"
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[18:45:07] *** andy shows as "away"
[18:45:11] *** andy shows as "online"
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[19:34:24] *** anjan shows as "online"
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[19:43:37] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[19:45:15] *** andy shows as "away"
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[19:46:52] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[19:51:46] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[19:53:17] *** jjrh has left the room
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[20:01:33] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:01:43] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[20:01:44] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[20:01:46] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
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[20:04:24] *** lskdjf has left the room
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[20:04:24] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[20:07:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[20:18:57] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:19:36] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[20:21:44] *** dos shows as "xa" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[20:22:37] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
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[20:24:43] *** marmistrz shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:27:39] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[20:37:49] *** dos shows as "online"
[20:42:50] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[20:44:33] *** Zash has left the room
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[20:47:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:47:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:50:49] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:51:00] *** Zash shows as "dnd"
[20:51:40] *** Valerian has left the room
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[20:54:16] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[20:54:53] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[20:55:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:58:32] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[20:58:33] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[21:02:19] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:03:04] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:03:05] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[21:06:41] *** lumi shows as "online"
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[21:14:28] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:14:29] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[21:22:03] *** anjan shows as "online"
[21:28:32] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:30:50] *** anjan shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:31:13] *** rion has left the room
[21:35:09] *** anjan shows as "online"
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[22:03:48] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:05:41] *** Guus has left the room
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[22:05:55] *** Guus shows as "online"
[22:07:04] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:07:05] *** marc has joined the room
[22:08:36] *** jubalh shows as "online"
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[22:09:33] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:18:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:18:27] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:19:04] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
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[22:27:34] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[22:34:50] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[22:34:53] *** waqas has joined the room
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[22:40:15] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:42:40] *** jubalh has left the room
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[22:50:40] *** Zash has left the room
[22:51:04] *** lnj has left the room
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[22:51:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:52:18] *** marc has left the room
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[23:02:21] *** SaltyBones has left the room
[23:09:56] *** SaltyBones shows as "online"
[23:14:56] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:16:51] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:17:23] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[23:17:34] *** valo has joined the room
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[23:33:07] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[23:35:14] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:37:22] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:45:37] *** SaltyBones has left the room
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[23:55:21] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[23:55:44] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[23:57:49] *** jjrh shows as "online"