Tuesday, June 12, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:03:20] <Ge0rG> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/01/detecting_drone.html another nail in the coffin of stream compression. I totally missed that back in January
[08:04:41] <jonasw> awesome
[08:04:59] <jonasw> can we use that to decrypt and de-DRM HDMI streams?
[08:09:25] <Andrew Nenakhov> "In other words, they can see what the drone sees," - seems like total bullshit
[08:10:27] <Andrew Nenakhov> They can detect patterns within compressed stream (idle/rapidly changing), not the stream itself.
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[10:44:06] <labdsf> TLDR: If you suspect that drone is filming you, move rapidly and see if it transmits more
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[11:28:05] <labdsf> daniel, why do you say Conversations resources are not permanent?
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[11:28:20] <labdsf> when are they changed?
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[11:29:11] <labdsf> I am thinking about how to fix it in Gajim and it seems just writing permanent resource in config is not a good idea, because configs may be synchronized
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[11:29:34] <daniel> labdsf: when a server provides me with a different one or if I'm logged out because of duplicate resource or not permitted to bind
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[11:30:07] <labdsf> that seems like a solution, thanks
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[11:30:28] <labdsf> just regenerate resource if it is duplicate
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[11:30:39] <jonasw> yupp
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[11:32:13] <Ge0rG> Except that a *sane* server will assume that the second bind is the same client, coming from a network change, and kill the old session.
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[11:33:06] <daniel> I've seen plenty of server that will prevent your bind
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[11:33:17] <daniel> Jabberd maybe?
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[11:35:01] <Ge0rG> daniel: yes, there are some servers that do that. No, it doesn't make it a good idea.
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[11:36:40] <daniel> i think there is also an ejabberd config that will just give you a new random resource
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[11:36:52] <daniel> at least i have seen that behaviour in the wild
[11:37:23] <Ge0rG> there is also a prosody module for that.
[11:37:59] <Ge0rG> In the Age Of MAM, this is not as bad as it used to be.
[11:38:36] <MattJ> FWIW although I now favour clients requesting per-client static resources, I didn't mention what the server actually assigns them :)
[11:38:38] <daniel> is "there is a prosody module for that" the new "the simpsons did it"?
[11:39:10] <Zash> Old tho
[11:39:58] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'm interested in how you imagine the whole process to play out, then.
[11:41:14] <MattJ> Is there any more to it than that?
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[11:41:57] <MattJ> Client should request a resource of <some installation-unique string>, it doesn't need to be what the server actually uses as the public resource for that session
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[11:42:32] <Ge0rG> MattJ: so you do assign another resource to the client? Do you expect the client to request the newly-assigned resource on next connection then? And re-assign again?
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[11:42:50] <MattJ> No, why would it do that?
[11:42:57] <MattJ> I expect the client to always request the same resource
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[11:43:50] <jonasw> MattJ, if the server gives me a different resource in the bind response, I think I’ll use that resource from then onwards ...
[11:44:10] <MattJ> Why?
[11:44:24] <Ge0rG> See, you don't even have a coherent image of your idea.
[11:44:29] <MattJ> Consider that the server's logic (as it typically is today) when that happens is "override the client's resource with a random one"
[11:44:45] <Ge0rG> Why should that be a good idea, again?
[11:44:50] <MattJ> Requesting the one the server assigns you will just get you a new different random one?
[11:44:56] <MattJ> s/?$//
[11:45:08] <MattJ> so why would you bother? Just request the one you want
[11:45:11] <jonasw> MattJ, yeah, in that case, it doesn’t matter whether I try my configured resource all over again
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[11:45:21] <jonasw> but if a server allows me to stay consistent, I can have that
[11:45:22] <jonasw> hm
[11:45:27] <jonasw> I kinda see your point
[11:45:32] <Ge0rG> I don't.
[11:45:35] <MattJ> If the server overrides your resource once, it will again :)
[11:45:37] <jonasw> why go through the hassle of updating the stored resource when it won’t work anyways
[11:46:02] <Ge0rG> It *could* work if the server had a list of well-known resources for that account, and checked that for matches.
[11:46:18] <Ge0rG> It needs that list anyway to kill your stale session on a reconnect.
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[11:46:42] <Ge0rG> You know, like above: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[11:46:50] <MattJ> It makes no sense to me that a client would store the resource beyond the lifetime of a single session
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[11:47:07] <jonasw> MattJ, yeah, nevermind on that one
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[11:47:13] <MattJ> Ge0rG, that old thing :)
[11:47:16] <jonasw> re-rolling a new resource on <conflict/> makes sense though
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[11:47:29] <Ge0rG> except that <conflict/> doesn't make sense.
[11:47:33] <jonasw> why not?
[11:47:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, if somebody copied their JabberCat config to a new machine and they connect it while the other machine is connected too, I get a <conflict/>
[11:48:00] <jonasw> I need to handel that and re-roll the resource
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[11:48:10] <Ge0rG> jonasw: wait, your *old* session gets a conflict?
[11:48:13] <jonasw> yes
[11:48:16] <Ge0rG> Aaah!
[11:48:19] <jonasw> (it doesn’t matter though)
[11:48:21] *Ge0rG got enlightened now.
[11:48:22] <jonasw> (even if the new session gets a conflict)
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[11:48:32] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it does make a difference.
[11:48:42] <jonasw> (A server could for example decide to let the new session conflict if it received a ping-pong just now)
[11:48:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: if your *new* session gets a conflict, it might be because the server still hangs on your old session.
[11:49:03] <Ge0rG> but it's dead for all practical matters.
[11:49:04] <jonasw> sure, but what am I supposed to do?
[11:49:09] <jonasw> not connect until that session dies?
[11:49:11] <Ge0rG> call the server hotline
[11:49:19] <jonasw> or roll a new resource and be able to connect?
[11:49:31] <Ge0rG> Hmm.... hide the error or show the error.
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[11:49:54] <jonasw> tricky question indeed
[11:51:00] <Ge0rG> Somebody should re-do https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_IM_Client_Design_Guidelines#Do_not_to_encode_any_semantics_into_the_resource.2C_let_the_server_generate_a_resource_for_you
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[11:58:43] <goffi> Ge0rG: I think I've actually followed this page, and today people have a different song
[11:59:10] <Ge0rG> goffi: I have hated that section, with a passion, for a long time.
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[12:00:14] <Ge0rG> But I'm not here for wiki editing wars, so I always hoped the original author would become convinced and change it.
[12:00:18] <jonasw> Ge0rG, modify it!
[12:00:20] <goffi> that's why a XEP (or better a new version of the RFC) should be clear on the subject.
[12:00:25] <jonasw> who is the origina lauthor
[12:01:05] <Ge0rG> I thought it was MattJ, but it looks like not.
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[12:01:09] <goffi> with a XEP there is a debate on standard, and council will arbitrate if there is any conflict.
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[12:01:54] <Ge0rG> goffi: there was a debate on standards, and we went home with multiple strong opinions.
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[12:03:08] <jonasw> *.xmpp *.split
[12:03:42] <goffi> so can somebody write some official proposal? As a client dev I don't really care which way is chosen to generate resource, but I would like to have a clear way and if possible some rationale to explain why.
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[12:04:38] <Ge0rG> I think jonasw volunteers for that 😁
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[12:05:20] <Ge0rG> goffi: the XSF traditionally isn't very strong at putting the rationale for protocols into its protocol specifications, and this one is 95% rationale.
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[12:06:55] <jonasw> Ge0rG, EBUSY
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[12:07:13] <goffi> well the important is not the tradition here, the important is to simplify life for everybody. And I don't think it worth spending time and energy to know how to generate resource
[12:07:48] <Ge0rG> goffi: the point is: this is not protocol, this is best-practices.
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[12:08:06] <goffi> there are several XEPS for best practice already
[12:08:08] <Ge0rG> so it might be a good informational XEP indeed.
[12:08:15] <goffi> yep
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[12:08:31] <Ge0rG> but then, as there is no consensus, and there are conflicting opinions, it's hard.
[12:08:47] <goffi> **on beatles music** All we need is specs, tadalala
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[12:10:26] <goffi> Ge0rG: the council is here to arbitrate once all opinions have been exposed.
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[12:11:03] <Ge0rG> goffi: what if the conflict is among council members?
[12:11:41] <goffi> well let's solve problem when they come?
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[12:12:33] <Ge0rG> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message would also make a great informational XEP
[12:12:40] <Ge0rG> And https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Am_I_still_there.3F as well
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[12:14:46] <Ge0rG> Also somebody should walk the wiki for all ML references made before 2016 and update the links
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[12:17:58] <flow> It may already help if a wiki page would list all competing proposals regarding resource handling. we may find out that there is in fact a way to reach consensus. (I thought we have consensus FWIW)
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[12:18:45] <Ge0rG> there is bind2.
[12:18:58] <Ge0rG> And there is Zuul.
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[12:20:06] <flow> Zuul?
[12:20:58] <Ge0rG> There is no Dana, only Zuul!
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[12:21:59] <Wiktor> hehe, and the hidden Mozilla egg: http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul
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[15:00:15] <fippo> https://twitter.com/w3cdevs/status/1006544269149077504 -- might be relevant for some european folks here
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[15:02:03] <Ge0rG> Yes, let's get some money to create more APIs to track web victims.
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[15:02:47] <fippo> heh :-)
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[15:47:52] <labdsf> Ge0rG, I have found your slides btw: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Georg%27s_Talk_on_Message_routing
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[15:51:14] <Ge0rG> labdsf: yay! Feel free to give feedback
[15:51:29] <Ge0rG> Or to feel embarrassed about it
[15:51:44] <labdsf> via https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8971
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[15:57:56] <Ge0rG> Am I supposed to defend my position in there?
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[15:58:26] <Ge0rG> 6121 also doesn't know about carbons, MAM, and four hundred other protocol extensions
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[16:56:42] <labdsf> Persistent resources in Gajim seem to be already fixed, just need to wait for it to hit the repos, closed the bug: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9193
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[16:58:00] <labdsf> cloned the master, started testing and found that it wrote the random part into config
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[17:04:54] <flow> yeah gajim is improving a lot recently
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[20:16:56] <Seve/SouL> Link Mauve: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018
[20:17:13] <Link Mauve> Ok, let’s do that now.
[20:17:55] <Link Mauve> https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018#Applicants
[20:19:53] <Seve/SouL> Link Mauve: great :)
[20:20:37] <pep.> wooh
[20:20:50] <pep.> Q3 already..
[20:21:06] <pep.> Time flies
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[20:23:08] <Seve/SouL> Yes :(
[20:23:15] <Seve/SouL> I will have to find my application
[20:23:26] <Seve/SouL> Or do a new one, wonder what...
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[20:26:03] <Seve/SouL> But yeah, a year already!
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[20:34:54] <edhelas> damn me too
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