XSF Discussion - 2018-06-13


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  352. jonasw is a stream closed wtih a stream error by the client SM-resumable?
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  366. Link Mauve I’d say no.
  367. jonasw that’d mean that sending <connection-timeout/> on streams which one believes to be dead is a bad idea.
  368. jonasw even though that might help with debugging
  369. Holger I'd say 'no' as well. Stream errors are unrecoverable. But formally speaking you could probably go into the definition of 'stream' vs. 'session' or how XEPs may override RFCs, while then again 0198 doesn't go into this.
  370. Holger jonasw: Yes I think that's a bad idea. Just close the TCP session.
  371. jonasw good
  372. Holger ... and log things locally for debugging.
  373. jonasw mmm, I might even be sending </stream:stream> on timeouts in some cases, I need to look into that
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  375. jonasw (or have been sending, anyways, I reworked the whole timeout business and I think it’s much better now in any respect)
  376. Holger jonasw: Or if you think it would be good/important to support this, it should explicitly go into 0198, IMO.
  377. jonasw which would namespace-bump '198. thanks, but no thanks.
  378. jonasw (or maybe stream-feature it, but eh, I don’t want to handle that with a conditional thing)
  379. jonasw breaking layers too much
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  453. Ge0rG jonasw [13:49]: > that’d mean that sending <connection-timeout/> on streams which one believes to be dead is a bad idea. Bad idea indeed
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  522. Zash Dave Cridland: Cert poke.
  523. Dave Cridland Zash, Really? Oh.
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  572. Wiktor n//nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.n; ; :::///////b?b/N//n///n/nmmmm?/mM ,,.....................
  573. Wiktor .
  574. Wiktor .
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  576. MattJ and so it begins
  577. Wiktor Yep, kid at the keyboard again, sorry 🙏
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  580. pep. looks like some kind of sed, he's trying to send us a message
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  587. Wiktor That may be the case, he can't speak yet, he's trying to communicate! Via sed!
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  646. Guus I think I'm to stupid to understand XEP-0357. Can someone explain section 2.2 to me please?
  647. Zash -xep 357
  648. Bunneh Zash: Push Notifications (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-08-24) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html
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  652. daniel Guus: maybe the Readme in github.com/inputmice/p2 can help?
  653. Guus tx
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  662. daniel Let me know if that was in fact helpful. Maybe there is something left that I can clarify
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  664. Guus daniel, I'm half way through it, and had two ah-hah! moment already.
  665. Guus (not to be confused with a-ha moments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914 )
  666. Guus gotta put my kids in bed now though, afk.
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  696. Guus daniel, so if I understand things correctly, then somewhere there's at least one of your P2 instances running that services the standard Conversations clients that are out there? (I can run my own, but that's only of interest if I build my own Conversations client?). Regular Conversations clients will perform "Account Owner Service Discovery" on the local XMPP domain, and, if available, this will eventually cause Conversations to ask the local XMPP domain to enable notifications (in that request a reference to the JID of your P2 instance is included)?
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  701. daniel Yes
  702. daniel And the jid of the P2 is hard-coded into Conversations. And if you compile that yourself you'd have to change that
  703. Guus Yeah, I'm not interested in doing that - I'm just checking if I understood the concept better now.
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  705. Guus Thanks, that helped a lot
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  723. Guus In a follow-up question to Push notifications: is there a list somewhere of good event candidates that warrant a push notification?
  724. daniel If there is a hibernating or unresponsive session push on every stanza that is being send down stream (not held back by csi)
  725. daniel Otherwise push on everything that would land in the archive / offline message
  726. daniel The thing you need to that is not described in the P2 Readme is that you should create a mapping between your push targets (app server jid - node ID tuple) and the current session
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  728. daniel So you'll know whether a specific push target is currently connected or not
  729. daniel Clients will send the enable in every session you know which session belongs to which push target
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  732. Guus did you just tell me to not send push notifications to an inactive (CSI) client?
  733. Guus doesn't that defeat the purpose?
  734. Holger Guus: Just not for those stanzas held back by CSI.
  735. Guus ah, right.
  736. Holger Guus: The idea is that you'd usually want the same filtering rules for disconnected push clients as for inactive TCP-connected clients.
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  738. Guus got itj
  739. Guus got it*
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  771. MattJ What if push was just the client registering a JID with it's server?
  772. MattJ And the server sent a simple <message> to that JID when it wanted to push something
  773. daniel How is that different from how it works now
  774. daniel Besides IQ vs messages
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  798. MattJ I guess it isn't, it's just a lot simpler
  799. MattJ Than pretending the app server is a pubsub service
  800. MattJ But now I'm sounding like Ge0rG
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  803. daniel Not worth changing at this point IMHO. One could consider rewriting the entire xep to make it easier to understand while keeping the Syntax
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  805. MattJ I would probably drop all the stuff about the communication between the app server and the client
  806. MattJ I think people can figure that part out for themselves, and in reality it will be different in every case
  807. Holger MattJ: I think there's value in using an IQ to get an ACK or error back. Yes the PubSub syntax is useless and confusing, and even more so all that nonsense-talk around PubSub in the XEP. But now that we have it I'd go for just simplifying the language as daniel said.
  808. MattJ Fair enough :/
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  813. Holger You want the IQ errors to let the app server notify you of dead push devices. The XEP also specifies an affiliation change <message/> in section #8 but that seems meh to me. I'd ditch that.
  814. Bunneh Holger: Update XEP-0298 #8 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/8
  815. Holger Bunneh, nah ...
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  817. Ge0rG Holger: you wanted to write a PR against push to remove the nonsense.
  818. Ge0rG Really, that xep is actively harmful. I don't know if just removing the misdirections while keeping the wire format will save it, but it's worth a try
  819. Holger Ge0rG: I wanted to do that or you wanted me to want to do it? :-)
  820. Holger > I would probably drop all the stuff about the communication between the app server and the client +1
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  823. Ge0rG Holger: you said you'd take over authorship to fix it, but then Kev was first.
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  825. Holger Well those plans for 'fixing' the XEP were unrelated to the PubSub langauge. But whatever yes I'll try to find some time.
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  827. MattJ Holger, messages can have error responses too...
  828. Zash Receipts!
  829. MattJ I see the attraction of iq, but I don't think it's a given requirement
  830. MattJ Otherwise we should just do all messaging over iq
  831. Zash MattJ: Hush, don't give them ideas
  832. Holger MattJ: In practice the ACK seems quite useful to me as well.
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  840. Holger MattJ: There's many hops in getting a push notification to the client, and when that fails you can be sure the problem is with one of the hops beyond the XMPP server.
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  842. Holger But yes I could live with both.
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  844. Holger s/both/either/
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  864. Ge0rG With messages you could just send back error responses. Should be enough to find out which client is broken, right?
  865. Holger We could replace all IQs with messages :-)
  866. Zash NACK or ACK by default?
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  870. Holger Yes, and follow-up with a ping IQ to make sure didn't just loose the connection to the app server!
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  873. Holger *you didn't
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  882. Ge0rG Great. Then next step will be to replace presence with messages as well.
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  886. Zash https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-shafranovich-privacy-mailbox hmm
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  892. MattJ Holger, and what are you saying? The iq result should reflect successful delivery to the client or to the app server?
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  894. Holger MattJ: Just the app server, there's usually no (easy) way for the app server to acknowledge delivery to the client of course.
  895. MattJ Right
  896. MattJ So to the app server, that can be solved with 198 already, though I don't think message loss on s2s is a common problem
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  899. MattJ Using message /would/ allow an app server to generate errors from other layers
  900. MattJ if those other layers support it
  901. Zash Does it make sense to return >1 error responses?
  902. Zash Or what would the difference be?
  903. MattJ Your message doubly failed to send
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  912. Zash As in, difference wrt iq
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  915. Holger There's other error cases than s2s connection loss, and debugging them can be a PITA as multiple parties are involved with the delivery. Therefore I prefer an explicit ACK in the logs over an implicit success assumption based on missing error messages while debugging issues in practice.
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  917. Holger But yes, in a hypothetical world with ubiquitous s2s-0198 and robust app servers the implicit success assumption would work just as well.
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