Wednesday, June 20, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[05:45:28] <flow> labdsf, caps still work with routing-ng (or why shouldn't they) and you are still able to send messages to the full jid
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[05:49:49] <jonasw> labdsf, please close PRs which shouldn’t be merged
[05:49:52] <jonasw> you can make a new one later
[05:50:00] <jonasw> open PRs clutter the view
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[06:03:26] <labdsf> ok, closed
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[06:03:32] <labdsf> I can even reopen it
[06:03:49] <jonasw> yupp
[06:03:54] <jonasw> thank you d)
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[10:38:18] <labdsf> flow: i mean, when I send messages to bare JID, I cannot know which capabilities the receiving client has
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[10:41:25] <jonasw> labdsf, there are use-cases where you want to send to a single device, for example for IQ-based protocols and stuff like Jingle
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[10:43:34] <labdsf> So ok, I can simply send message to all full JIDs that I think have required capabilities
[10:43:50] <labdsf> And attach no-copy hint
[10:44:05] <jonasw> except that they’re not archived
[10:44:31] <labdsf> Not archived by MAM is ok
[10:44:45] <jonasw> awful
[10:45:08] <labdsf> For ephemeral messages that is exactly what I want
[10:45:10] <jonasw> I am strictly against introducing another reason why messages don’t appear on all devices.
[10:45:13] <jonasw> OMEMO itself is bad enough already.
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[10:47:45] <labdsf> If I send to all full JIDs, then it will appear on all online devices
[10:48:11] <labdsf> I think we need a better way to deliver messages to offline devices
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[10:50:07] <Kev> We have it, it's MAM.
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[10:51:00] <labdsf> It does not deliver messages to full JID
[10:51:13] <jonasw> labdsf, except that the device may be going offlnie exactly in that moment you send the message
[10:51:18] <jonasw> and come back online a secodn later
[10:51:21] <jonasw> without the user noticing
[10:51:31] <jonasw> (badly timed SM resumption can cause this behaviour)
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[10:52:15] <labdsf> How about updating XEP 0160 to say that messages send with no-copy should be postponed and delivered to exactly that full jid, not some random with positive priority?
[10:52:29] <labdsf> sent*
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[10:53:23] <labdsf> Or return service-unavailable at least
[10:53:28] <jonasw> labdsf, also, what if:
1. you check device support
2. you send a message to all full JIDs you want to
3. your network is slow and the message is delayed
4. one of your target devices goes offline
5. another device from that user comes online which does *not* have the feature you were looking for, but uses the same resource
6. your message was delivered to the wrong device
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[10:54:10] <labdsf> jonasw: do not use the same resource
[10:54:17] <jonasw> you can’t force your peer to not do that
[10:54:38] <jonasw> using the resource for that kind of stuff is inherently racy because it’s an inherently temporary thing
[10:55:25] <labdsf> I think using unique resources is the best practice
[10:55:50] <Kev> And remember that clients don't get to choose their resources, the server does.
[10:56:07] <labdsf> Otherwise we cannot do anything but say that capabilities are totally unreliable
[10:56:15] <jonasw> labdsf, that’s what we’ve been doing for a while now :)
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[10:56:49] <jonasw> for IQ based stuff it’s okay, and for things like jingle where there’s constant feedback, but using it for messaging is not a good idea
[10:57:09] <Kev> It's generally ok, but not foolproof.
[10:57:53] <labdsf> Except that capabilities XEP mentions XHTML-IM in the introduction, which is messaging use case
[10:59:24] <jonasw> labdsf, it’s also old
[10:59:31] <labdsf> I would rather slowly improve offline message delivery then declare that nothing is reliable in XMPP and we should just send everything to bare JID with store hint and body and save it in MAM forever
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[11:00:02] <jonasw> labdsf, why not?
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[11:01:14] <labdsf> Because it is impossible to implement any extension that relies on client support on top of that
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[11:03:08] <labdsf> Lets say, replies, editing messages other than the last etc.
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[11:04:29] <labdsf> OMEMO has to put encryption keys for *all* devices except the one it is intended for
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[11:12:34] <labdsf> Adding body to OMEMO messages is a kludge also
[11:16:01] <labdsf> There are two problems with full JIDs: 1. No way to get list of offline resources 2. No reliable delivery to offline resources
[11:16:22] <labdsf> Both are fixable on server side
[11:16:36] <Kev> (1) That's what a presence subscription gives you
(2) That's because there's no such thing as an offline resource.
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[11:17:42] <jonasw> Kev, how does presence subscription give you a list of *offline* resources?
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[11:18:34] <Kev> Sorry, I read *online* resources. It also gives you a full list of offline resources - it's an empty list because they don't exist :)
[11:19:15] <jonasw> heh
[11:19:21] <Kev> We do need to track offline clients for assorted reasons, but those are offline clients, not offline resources.
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[11:21:56] <labdsf> Ok, "offline resource" means a resource that offline client will use when it reconnect
[11:22:12] <MattJ> There is no way to know what resource a client will use when it reconnects
[11:22:30] <MattJ> A resource is a session identifier for an online session only
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[11:22:51] <MattJ> As much as it would be nice to imagine it is a device identifier, it is not - there is no standard for that, and it's not what most clients do
[11:23:11] <jonasw> (yet)
[11:23:13] <MattJ> I would like to change both of those things
[11:23:24] <labdsf> If it randomizes resource every time, it should be fixed IMO, or don't expect to get messages other than those sent to bare JID
[11:23:41] <jonasw> (I don’t expect messages except those sent to the bare JID.)
[11:23:56] <jonasw> (and I don’t think we should send normal IM to anything *but* the bare JID.)
[11:24:01] <MattJ> Agreed
[11:24:14] <jonasw> labdsf, the right way to handle stuff like XHTML-Im etc. is to provide a sensible fallback for clients which do not support it
[11:24:21] <jonasw> the protocol must be designed in such a way that legacy clients do the right thing
[11:24:29] <labdsf> MattJ: agreed to me or jonasw?
[11:25:01] <MattJ> jonasw, but I do agree that clients should not request a random resource for every session
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[11:26:25] <MattJ> I also agree that a client cannot assume it will get *every* message sent to a full JID, but that one is far less clear
[11:26:41] <labdsf> Instead of MAM, server can list resources used by offline client for a week or so, with cached capabilities, and store offline messages sent to them for some time
[11:26:48] <MattJ> and sending to full JID is, like random client-requested resources, something we now want to discourage
[11:27:14] <MattJ> I already have most of an implementation of that, FWIW
[11:27:34] <MattJ> But I still don't think that means what you think it means
[11:27:54] <MattJ> Just because the server can track devices, doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the same resource
[11:28:14] <MattJ> It's potentially something you don't want to leak to third parties
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[11:51:22] <flow> yet we do it as soon as a client replies with a message
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[11:52:21] <Kev> We leak resources, we don't necessarily leak devices, because resources and devices aren't a 1:1 mapping over time.
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[11:53:33] <flow> true, I still wonder if we shouldn't try to address that by adding a way to send messages from the bare JID. although I fear that this would probably break some (receiving) clients
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[12:04:30] <labdsf> flow: or just introduce a virtual "proxy" resource maintained for you by the servet
[12:04:39] <labdsf> server*
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[12:06:38] <labdsf> MattJ: what are the drawbacks of "leaking" a list of resources. Third party will know how many devices you have, anything else?
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[12:07:07] <MattJ> Not that I can immediately think of
[12:07:39] <MattJ> It's not just how many, it's when you use certain devices also
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[12:08:04] <MattJ> e.g. someone can track you between work and home if you have a device in each location
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[12:09:47] <MattJ> People used to explicitly set resources like /Home and /Work (well, some clients defaulted to things like that also), but I think we know better than to share things like that by default in 2018
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[12:11:35] <flow> labdsf, the resource string is the only thing between a remote entity and your device. if a remote does know it, they can send stanzas which will very likely reach your device (compared to "probably reach your device"). For example, someone knowing the resource of your mobile could write a script which sends "silent" messages every minute or so, in an attempt to drain your battery without you noticing it
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[12:12:12] <Seve/SouL> MattJ, did you or someone else publish something regarding the newsletter? I've been not able to catch up lately and I wonder if I missed something
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[12:12:22] <Seve/SouL> sorry, not the newsletter, where do I have my braind today...
[12:12:25] <Seve/SouL> The survey
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[12:12:46] <MattJ> Seve/SouL, not yet
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[12:13:39] <jonasw> flow, itym "reach that specific device" instead of "reach your device"
[12:13:54] <jonasw> because sending to the bare JID would normally cause the device to receive the message for sure at some point
[12:14:01] <jonasw> (in the ideal IM-NG world)
[12:14:02] <Seve/SouL> Ok ok, no rush MattJ, just worried about myself missing stuff :)
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[12:15:11] <flow> jonasw, yes, if we did im-ng, but I deliberatly did not take it into condsideration because there are still many open questions
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[12:16:42] <jonasw> flow, help to solve them :)
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[12:17:54] <flow> jonasw, if it only where so easy ;)
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[12:18:25] <flow> hmm "if it only would be that easy"
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[14:03:47] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[14:10:53] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[14:20:55] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:23:00] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[14:23:01] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[14:29:42] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:30:43] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
[14:31:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:33:33] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:34:12] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[14:34:56] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[14:36:43] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[14:36:53] *** jubalh has joined the room
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[14:46:43] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
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[14:49:43] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[14:57:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:57:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:57:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[15:01:29] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[15:16:30] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:16:45] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:17:05] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[15:33:08] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:33:47] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:35:09] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[15:35:53] *** anjan shows as "online"
[15:36:07] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[15:36:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[15:40:58] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
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[16:15:07] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[16:15:29] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[16:17:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[16:32:05] *** winfried shows as "online"
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[16:40:03] *** marmistrz shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[16:49:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[16:50:01] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[16:51:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[17:02:13] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
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[17:23:10] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:25:52] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[17:26:05] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[17:31:31] *** marmistrz shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[17:52:01] *** rainslide has left the room
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[18:01:20] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[18:40:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[18:49:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:02:07] *** anjan shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:02:21] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[19:02:38] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[19:04:07] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[19:04:52] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
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[19:21:41] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:22:21] *** dos shows as "xa" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[19:22:36] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
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[19:27:57] *** dos shows as "online"
[19:29:56] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:29:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:29:58] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[19:30:00] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[19:35:35] *** lskdjf has left the room
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[19:50:25] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[19:51:27] *** daniel has left the room
[19:51:31] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:51:41] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[21:08:33] <labdsf> flow, what if someone sents silent messages to bare JID?
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[21:10:51] <labdsf> MattJ, where can I find your implementation of offline message delivery?
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[21:11:20] <MattJ> labdsf: on my laptop
[21:11:32] <labdsf> so it is not in https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/ yet?
[21:11:41] <MattJ> No
[21:12:07] <MattJ> It will probably be in prosody-modules first
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[21:12:38] <MattJ> Too much of this is new and experimental
[21:12:45] <labdsf> is there any description of it, maybe in ML?
[21:13:07] <MattJ> But I am writing it with the full intention of it replacing the current code we have
[21:13:29] <MattJ> No, and to be honest I have mostly avoided talking about it until recently
[21:13:39] <MattJ> There is not really anything to discuss
[21:14:20] <MattJ> For the initial implementation it will need no protocol changes, and no client changes
[21:14:26] <labdsf> but still, you will keep disconnected resources around, they will be seen in presence and it will be possible to send messages to them, right?
[21:14:51] <MattJ> No, as I said earlier a resource is not a device
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[21:15:05] <MattJ> I am not trying to change that
[21:16:32] <MattJ> Prosody will track devices, but that does not necessarily mean sessions will have predictable resource strings
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[21:17:47] <labdsf> if some client uses the same resource string on every connection, and no other client uses the same resource string, the message will be delivered to that device only?
[21:18:57] <MattJ> Send a message to a full JID, use no-copy and Prosody will deliver to that device only
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[21:20:00] <labdsf> and if there is no no-copy, it is delivered to some other resource, as per https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html ?
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[21:20:58] <MattJ> As I wrote, I am not trying to change any protocols or behaviour beyond what should reasonably be expected
[21:21:36] <MattJ> If the device is online when you send the message, it is not an offline message
[21:21:46] <MattJ> It will go to that device
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[21:22:31] <MattJ> If you send to a resource that is not online, core routing rules apply as always, it will be redirected
[21:22:56] <MattJ> If all devices are offline it's an offline message
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[21:24:14] <labdsf> what happens if there is some device online, message has no no-copy and resource it is sent to 1) was used before 2) was never used before
[21:25:02] <labdsf> and what if there is no-copy and resource was never used before, message is lost?
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[21:32:46] <MattJ> You're over-thinking it... the answer to all the questions is essentially: "exactly the same as happens now"
[21:33:22] <MattJ> Whether a resource was used before is completely irrelevant - resources are temporary, and they belong to a session
[21:33:37] <MattJ> Prosody is not tracking resources, it is not making resources persistent in any way
[21:34:20] <MattJ> Prosody is tracking devices. Devices != resources
[21:35:39] <labdsf> how does it track devices, besides the resource string they request on connection?
[21:35:57] <MattJ> XEP-0198 session token is another way, for example
[21:36:40] <MattJ> A client could try to resume a session, fail (because the session timed out), and then it goes on to bind a completely random resource
[21:36:44] <MattJ> Same device, different resource
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[21:38:50] <Zash> Except not, because the device was killed by the OS and all that was lost
[21:39:56] <labdsf> the device can try to save SM id in some persistent database
[21:39:59] <MattJ> Zash, tangential to the devices != resources point :)
[21:40:42] <Zash> Possibly
[21:40:43] <MattJ> labdsf, I would eventually like bind2 or some alternative to be implemented, and allow the client to unambigously send a unique id
[21:41:08] <MattJ> But as I mentioned, my current scope involves no protocol changes
[21:41:39] <MattJ> After it's done, bind2/something will become more of a priority
[21:42:22] <daniel> saving the id only wont help you. you'd have to save the entire state
[21:42:39] <MattJ> Yeah
[21:42:58] <daniel> but on mobile the push target is another nice id for the device
[21:43:08] <daniel> clients will enable that in every session
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[21:43:14] <MattJ> Ah, good point, thanks :)
[21:43:21] <daniel> but maybe too late depending on what you are trying to do
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[21:43:42] <MattJ> No, it's easily extended to that
[21:43:57] <MattJ> Though I would like the push target to become part of bind as well
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[21:44:19] <MattJ> Kinda "this is another way to reach me" metadata associated with the session
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[22:02:58] <labdsf> MattJ, how is it different from mod_smacks_offline?
[22:03:29] <labdsf> it just places message for offline delivery, and you try to deliver it to the correct device instead?
[22:03:50] <MattJ> mod_smacks_offline is not ideal, it doesn't work with multiple resources online
[22:04:35] <labdsf> it just delivers to the resource with highest priority?
[22:04:38] <MattJ> If deviceA and deviceB are both online, if deviceB goes offline and does not resume, and there is an unacked message in the queue, there is a question about what to do
[22:05:00] <MattJ> It can't save it to the offline message store, because there is another device still online
[22:05:11] <MattJ> it could send it to that other device
[22:05:20] <MattJ> but that device possibly already received it
[22:05:29] <MattJ> via bare-JID forking or through carbons
[22:05:30] <MattJ> etc.
[22:06:23] <MattJ> so you end up with duplicated messages or bounced messages. In the case of a single resource going offline, with no other resources, it's simple to just save it to the offline store
[22:06:31] <MattJ> Next resource to log in receives it
[22:07:02] <labdsf> ok, current default is that it is just lost
[22:07:15] <labdsf> and what will you do instead with the new code?
[22:07:17] <MattJ> Current default (mod_smacks) is to send an error reply to the sender
[22:07:41] <MattJ> Which works fine, and is the safe option
[22:07:47] <MattJ> ...except when the sender has gone offline
[22:07:58] <Zash> or ignore all of that and Just Use MAM™
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[22:09:17] <MattJ> labdsf, new code tracks devices and what stanzas/messages they need to receive
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[22:10:10] <MattJ> which means the mod_smacks problem is solved, because the code can focus on delivery to a single device, and not worry about whether other resources are online/offline/etc.
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[22:10:42] <MattJ> so at the time of forking/carbons/etc. that is when it gets decided what device receives what stanza
[22:11:19] <MattJ> Instead of 5-15min later "Oops, that failed to deliver, now where should we send it?"
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[22:28:05] <labdsf> MattJ, so what will be different, you will try to identify deviceB even after timeout?
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