Saturday, June 30, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[08:00:57] <labdsf> See https://delta.chat for IM over email
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[10:27:51] <j.r> Hey
[10:28:08] <j.r> Is there a way to delete messages in mam?
[10:29:08] <daniel> j.r: no standardized way
[10:30:14] <j.r> that's bad
[10:31:21] <j.r> What means not standardized?
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[10:33:31] <daniel> That there is no standard way of doing it. Some servers or providers might have their own protocol
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[10:34:05] <j.r> Oh ok
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[11:03:45] <pep.> labdsf: "Independent: You are not dependent on any external service or server - Delta Chat only uses your mail server." Can I laugh
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[11:12:55] <labdsf> pep.: dunno what you laugh at, it basically means they don't run any infrastructure
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[11:25:56] <pep.> Well yeah they use email. I guess they only provide the client, the server being gmail for most people, I don't see how that's not being dependent
[11:26:25] <jonasw> (also, it is really sucky when you don’t have DeltaChat)
[11:26:34] <jonasw> (a friend of mine tested it briefly)
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[14:04:56] <MattJ> jonasw: in what way? (I could guess, but just curious)
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[15:29:53] <Link Mauve> “23:15:59 SamWhited> Client UIs are primarily designed for short form messages that are meant to be read right away.”, there are quite a few clients which have a better UI for that, try Movim or Libervia.
[15:30:48] <SamWhited> "primarily" was the keyword there.
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[15:34:28] <Link Mauve> It depends on the client.
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[15:34:42] <Link Mauve> IM clients do IM primarily, other clients do other things primarily.
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[15:54:38] <SamWhited> And XMPP clients are primarily IM clients.
[15:55:06] <Link Mauve> Is there any use to this information?
[15:55:58] <SamWhited> I'm not sure what you mean; I was just asked a question so I answered it.
[15:56:19] <Ge0rG> I wouldn't be surpried if non-IM XMPP clients vastly outnumbered IM XMPP clients, but we just can't see them.
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[16:34:58] <ralphm> Totally
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[16:38:34] <SamWhited> Probably not in such a way that moving the newsletter to them would be helpful though; I doubt a million and one IoT devices or whatever want to read the newsletter.
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[16:39:30] <daniel> Once they become self aware they might
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[17:47:28] <Ge0rG> BBL, taking my laser printer into installing conversations.
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[19:09:05] <flow> Ge0rG, whut?
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[19:10:34] *flow wonders if a "in final recipients MAM archive delivery receipt" would be desireable. Any thoughts?
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[19:23:33] <Ge0rG> flow: 0184 kind of breaks with multi device cases, but still I'd consider it a bad idea to ack on MAM storage. Instead, we should fix xmpp to reflect an error if the message didn't reach the recipient's MAM
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[19:26:33] <Ge0rG> You could add another level of ack of course, which is less than "delivered to user's device", but I don't see any value in it for IM
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[20:01:35] <flow> Ge0rG, why do you think that it is a bad idea?
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[20:03:36] *** UsL shows as "online" and his status message is "here"
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[20:20:04] <Ge0rG> flow: abusing 0184? because "stored in MAM" is less of a delivery guarantee than "received by user's device"
[20:20:41] <Ge0rG> flow: think of "the user lost their device last week, and won't ever login again, but MAM is still running"
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[20:24:32] <waqas> I agree with Ge0rG that using 0184 is a bad hack, as it's intended for end-to-end receipts. 0198 gives you single hop receipts already.
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[20:25:07] <Zash> Does 184 say something about how to make sense of it in a multi-device environment?
[20:25:38] <waqas> No, it's more like "some device received it"
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[20:26:45] <Ge0rG> I think that in combo with MAM, it's a good approximation of "at least one device received it, and the others are going to eventually sync up"
[20:31:30] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[20:42:08] *** karp shows as "away" and his status message is "..."
[20:44:03] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[20:59:02] <Andrew Nenakhov> Storing delivery receipts in mam for each message would no no good.
[20:59:36] <Andrew Nenakhov> Hacks to store "empty" messages to act as read receipts are no good either.
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[21:14:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[21:32:21] <Ge0rG> Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM?
[21:34:36] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
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[21:49:01] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[22:01:44] *** anjan shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:11:46] *** anjan shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:14:26] *** Guus has left the room
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