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flow
I did say that such a receipt should use xep198 FWIW
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jonasw
MattJ, you get a bunch of small emails all the time
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flow
jonasw, do you know if it would be possible to filter those messages into an extra mailbox/folder?
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jonasw
flow, of course that’s possible
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Andrew Nenakhov
> Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM? Clients are overtasked with loading extra data from archive. No set standard, clients work differently. Some clients imolementations break other clients work with archive. Lots of receipts are stored in archive as separate messages, no way to clean that. No reliable read receipts data if we start loading from random point. It's yet another ad-hoc solution to fix issues that are not addressed in standards. Some people prefer to be oblivious to such issues and pretend that xmpp is fine. It is not, currently it fails to address the most basic users needs, no wonder market is taken by Telegram and WhatsApp and the likes.
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Zash
> the most basic users needs Someone™ should do some kind of study to determine what this means
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Andrew Nenakhov
I did such study.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Users want reliable message delivery, nice read markers, nice search, easy setup.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Oh an all their contacts to use this app.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Whatsapp viber and telegram deliver that, while xmpp community argues about anonymous MUCs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Zash
Network effects trump all other issues tho
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Zash
Oh and what users wants isn't necessarily the same thing as users needs
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Andrew Nenakhov
Telegram started just 5 years ago, to crowded market, had no network affext at all.
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Andrew Nenakhov
It was just plain awesome.
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Zash
Marketing to bootstrap network effects
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moparisthebest
Andrew Nenakhov: what kind of users, server side search is directly contrary to e2e and all the users I know want e2e
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moparisthebest
Almost as if there is no one size fits all solution
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Andrew Nenakhov
Most likely you know only a small specific subset of users
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Andrew Nenakhov
E2ee everywhere is stupid bullshit )
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moparisthebest
Or maybe you do :(
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moparisthebest
Or maybe both of us
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Andrew Nenakhov
I for one do not want any encryption.
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moparisthebest
I for one don't want any plaintext
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Zash
And everyone wants different things
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Andrew Nenakhov
Seamless sync between devices is way more important for me than some fake promise of security.
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moparisthebest
I see no point to plaintext anywhere since encryption is essentially free
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moparisthebest
I have that and encryption so...
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Andrew Nenakhov
It's not free. It comes at the expense of search. And seamless sync.
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moparisthebest
I can have good search on my device
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Andrew Nenakhov
Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
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moparisthebest
And again I already have seamless sync between devices
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Andrew Nenakhov
Telegram delivers that.
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Andrew Nenakhov
moparisthebest, > Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
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moparisthebest
Along with e2e right?
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Andrew Nenakhov
No, not with e2e. Telegram actually does e2e cleverly.
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moparisthebest
That's a choice between forward secrecy or not, not encryption or not
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moparisthebest
Xmpp can do that using PGP
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Andrew Nenakhov
Forward secrecy is bullshit too )
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moparisthebest
If you think so you have PGP
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moparisthebest
Also the entire internet disagrees but that's beside the point
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Andrew Nenakhov
Anyway, guys, if you think that all is fine with xmpp, well, I can't help it.
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moparisthebest
TLS 1.3 removes all non forward secret ciphers
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Andrew Nenakhov
moparisthebest, users don't really even know what forward secrecy is anyway.
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moparisthebest
It can be improved certainly
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moparisthebest
That's what we are doing here right?
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Andrew Nenakhov
Yeah. But I'd rather have a nice read markers that are nicely stored on server in a right way.
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moparisthebest
Ok that sounds very solvable
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Andrew Nenakhov
And have a nice group chats instead of this muc nonsense.
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moparisthebest
Yea everyone agrees with that I think
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moparisthebest
The discussion is whether that is mix or not, it's really been almost the only one submitted though
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moparisthebest
Mucsub could be nice, so could your thing, neither have been submitted officially I think
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Andrew Nenakhov
Not really only one, we're working on a really great and rather simple group chat )
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Andrew Nenakhov
I posted basics in xsf mailing list.
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moparisthebest
Yea I'm familiar with the concept from that, when is the protoxep coming though? :)
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Andrew Nenakhov
Chat itself is working great, now work on admin part. Protoxep, ... Hopefully by the end of July.
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moparisthebest
Nice
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Andrew Nenakhov
Ok have to leave now. See you.