Sunday, July 01, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:48:34] <flow> I did say that such a receipt should use xep198 FWIW
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[07:58:12] <jonasw> MattJ, you get a bunch of small emails all the time
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[08:25:44] <flow> jonasw, do you know if it would be possible to filter those messages into an extra mailbox/folder?
[08:26:28] <jonasw> flow, of course that’s possible
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[17:34:01] <Andrew Nenakhov> > Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM?

Clients are overtasked with loading extra data from archive. No set standard, clients work differently. Some clients imolementations break other clients work with archive. Lots of receipts are stored in archive as separate messages, no way to clean that. No reliable read receipts data if we start loading from random point. It's yet another ad-hoc solution to fix issues that are not addressed in standards.

Some people prefer to be oblivious to such issues and pretend that xmpp is fine. It is not, currently it fails to address the most basic users needs, no wonder market is taken by Telegram and WhatsApp and the likes.
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[17:35:47] <Zash> > the most basic users needs
Someone™ should do some kind of study to determine what this means
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[17:40:29] <Andrew Nenakhov> I did such study.
[17:41:10] <Andrew Nenakhov> Users want reliable message delivery, nice read markers, nice search, easy setup.
[17:41:28] <Andrew Nenakhov> Oh an all their contacts to use this app.
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[17:43:36] <Andrew Nenakhov> Whatsapp viber and telegram deliver that, while xmpp community argues about anonymous MUCs.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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[17:44:33] <Zash> Network effects trump all other issues tho
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[17:45:10] <Zash> Oh and what users wants isn't necessarily the same thing as users needs
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[17:45:33] <Andrew Nenakhov> Telegram started just 5 years ago, to crowded market, had no network affext at all.
[17:45:59] <Andrew Nenakhov> It was just plain awesome.
[17:46:01] <Zash> Marketing to bootstrap network effects
[17:46:02] <moparisthebest> Andrew Nenakhov: what kind of users, server side search is directly contrary to e2e and all the users I know want e2e
[17:46:25] <moparisthebest> Almost as if there is no one size fits all solution
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[17:46:44] <Andrew Nenakhov> Most likely you know only a small specific subset of users
[17:47:03] <Andrew Nenakhov> E2ee everywhere is stupid bullshit )
[17:47:03] <moparisthebest> Or maybe you do :(
[17:47:11] <moparisthebest> Or maybe both of us
[17:47:24] <Andrew Nenakhov> I for one do not want any encryption.
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[17:47:38] <moparisthebest> I for one don't want any plaintext
[17:47:38] <Zash> And everyone wants different things
[17:48:02] <Andrew Nenakhov> Seamless sync between devices is way more important for me than some fake promise of security.
[17:48:18] <moparisthebest> I see no point to plaintext anywhere since encryption is essentially free
[17:48:35] <moparisthebest> I have that and encryption so...
[17:48:51] <Andrew Nenakhov> It's not free. It comes at the expense of search. And seamless sync.
[17:49:10] <moparisthebest> I can have good search on my device
[17:49:31] <Andrew Nenakhov> Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
[17:49:32] <moparisthebest> And again I already have seamless sync between devices
[17:49:39] <Andrew Nenakhov> Telegram delivers that.
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[17:49:56] <Andrew Nenakhov> moparisthebest,

> Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
[17:50:01] <moparisthebest> Along with e2e right?
[17:50:33] <Andrew Nenakhov> No, not with e2e. Telegram actually does e2e cleverly.
[17:50:37] <moparisthebest> That's a choice between forward secrecy or not, not encryption or not
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[17:50:50] <moparisthebest> Xmpp can do that using PGP
[17:50:54] <Andrew Nenakhov> Forward secrecy is bullshit too )
[17:51:09] <moparisthebest> If you think so you have PGP
[17:51:39] <moparisthebest> Also the entire internet disagrees but that's beside the point
[17:51:45] <Andrew Nenakhov> Anyway, guys, if you think that all is fine with xmpp, well, I can't help it.
[17:52:03] <moparisthebest> TLS 1.3 removes all non forward secret ciphers
[17:52:16] <Andrew Nenakhov> moparisthebest, users don't really even know what forward secrecy is anyway.
[17:52:17] <moparisthebest> It can be improved certainly
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[17:53:10] <moparisthebest> That's what we are doing here right?
[17:53:52] <Andrew Nenakhov> Yeah. But I'd rather have a nice read markers that are nicely stored on server in a right way.
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[17:54:23] <moparisthebest> Ok that sounds very solvable
[17:54:27] <Andrew Nenakhov> And have a nice group chats instead of this muc nonsense.
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[17:54:50] <moparisthebest> Yea everyone agrees with that I think
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[17:55:40] <moparisthebest> The discussion is whether that is mix or not, it's really been almost the only one submitted though
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[17:56:18] <moparisthebest> Mucsub could be nice, so could your thing, neither have been submitted officially I think
[17:56:26] <Andrew Nenakhov> Not really only one, we're working on a really great and rather simple group chat )
[17:56:54] <Andrew Nenakhov> I posted basics in xsf mailing list.
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[17:57:14] <moparisthebest> Yea I'm familiar with the concept from that, when is the protoxep coming though? :)
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[17:57:46] <Andrew Nenakhov> Chat itself is working great, now work on admin part. Protoxep, ... Hopefully by the end of July.
[17:58:04] <moparisthebest> Nice
[17:58:13] <Andrew Nenakhov> Ok have to leave now. See you.
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