XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-07-01


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  112. flow I did say that such a receipt should use xep198 FWIW
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  125. jonasw MattJ, you get a bunch of small emails all the time
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  131. flow jonasw, do you know if it would be possible to filter those messages into an extra mailbox/folder?
  132. jonasw flow, of course that’s possible
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  394. Andrew Nenakhov > Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM? Clients are overtasked with loading extra data from archive. No set standard, clients work differently. Some clients imolementations break other clients work with archive. Lots of receipts are stored in archive as separate messages, no way to clean that. No reliable read receipts data if we start loading from random point. It's yet another ad-hoc solution to fix issues that are not addressed in standards. Some people prefer to be oblivious to such issues and pretend that xmpp is fine. It is not, currently it fails to address the most basic users needs, no wonder market is taken by Telegram and WhatsApp and the likes.
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  397. Zash > the most basic users needs Someone™ should do some kind of study to determine what this means
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  403. Andrew Nenakhov I did such study.
  404. Andrew Nenakhov Users want reliable message delivery, nice read markers, nice search, easy setup.
  405. Andrew Nenakhov Oh an all their contacts to use this app.
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  407. Andrew Nenakhov Whatsapp viber and telegram deliver that, while xmpp community argues about anonymous MUCs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  409. Zash Network effects trump all other issues tho
  410. Zash Oh and what users wants isn't necessarily the same thing as users needs
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  412. Andrew Nenakhov Telegram started just 5 years ago, to crowded market, had no network affext at all.
  413. Andrew Nenakhov It was just plain awesome.
  414. Zash Marketing to bootstrap network effects
  415. moparisthebest Andrew Nenakhov: what kind of users, server side search is directly contrary to e2e and all the users I know want e2e
  416. moparisthebest Almost as if there is no one size fits all solution
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  418. Andrew Nenakhov Most likely you know only a small specific subset of users
  419. Andrew Nenakhov E2ee everywhere is stupid bullshit )
  420. moparisthebest Or maybe you do :(
  421. moparisthebest Or maybe both of us
  422. Andrew Nenakhov I for one do not want any encryption.
  423. moparisthebest I for one don't want any plaintext
  424. Zash And everyone wants different things
  425. Andrew Nenakhov Seamless sync between devices is way more important for me than some fake promise of security.
  426. moparisthebest I see no point to plaintext anywhere since encryption is essentially free
  427. moparisthebest I have that and encryption so...
  428. Andrew Nenakhov It's not free. It comes at the expense of search. And seamless sync.
  429. moparisthebest I can have good search on my device
  430. Andrew Nenakhov Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
  431. moparisthebest And again I already have seamless sync between devices
  432. Andrew Nenakhov Telegram delivers that.
  433. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, > Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts
  434. moparisthebest Along with e2e right?
  435. Andrew Nenakhov No, not with e2e. Telegram actually does e2e cleverly.
  436. moparisthebest That's a choice between forward secrecy or not, not encryption or not
  437. moparisthebest Xmpp can do that using PGP
  438. Andrew Nenakhov Forward secrecy is bullshit too )
  439. moparisthebest If you think so you have PGP
  440. moparisthebest Also the entire internet disagrees but that's beside the point
  441. Andrew Nenakhov Anyway, guys, if you think that all is fine with xmpp, well, I can't help it.
  442. moparisthebest TLS 1.3 removes all non forward secret ciphers
  443. Andrew Nenakhov moparisthebest, users don't really even know what forward secrecy is anyway.
  444. moparisthebest It can be improved certainly
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  446. moparisthebest That's what we are doing here right?
  447. Andrew Nenakhov Yeah. But I'd rather have a nice read markers that are nicely stored on server in a right way.
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  449. moparisthebest Ok that sounds very solvable
  450. Andrew Nenakhov And have a nice group chats instead of this muc nonsense.
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  452. moparisthebest Yea everyone agrees with that I think
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  454. moparisthebest The discussion is whether that is mix or not, it's really been almost the only one submitted though
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  456. moparisthebest Mucsub could be nice, so could your thing, neither have been submitted officially I think
  457. Andrew Nenakhov Not really only one, we're working on a really great and rather simple group chat )
  458. Andrew Nenakhov I posted basics in xsf mailing list.
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  460. moparisthebest Yea I'm familiar with the concept from that, when is the protoxep coming though? :)
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  462. Andrew Nenakhov Chat itself is working great, now work on admin part. Protoxep, ... Hopefully by the end of July.
  463. moparisthebest Nice
  464. Andrew Nenakhov Ok have to leave now. See you.
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