Thursday, July 05, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[07:10:55] <jonasw> so Daniel and Sam are reporting issues accessing the XSF MUCs. can somebody look into that, MattJ maybe?
[07:11:11] <MattJ> I can
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[07:11:33] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[07:11:42] <MattJ> Do they have any more details?
[07:12:20] <Ge0rG> I'd just blame lack of self-awareness in typical MUC clients.
[07:12:44] <jonasw> MattJ, not more than whats on standards@
[07:13:01] <jonasw> I *guess* it’ll be hard to ask them here ;-)
[07:13:32] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[07:14:27] <Ge0rG> Sam has been joining and leaving the council@ MUC yesterday, at least.
[07:14:33] <edhelas> I found a little typo on the main website "propriatary binary XMPP protocol."
[07:14:38] <edhelas> on https://xmpp.org/uses/social.html
[07:15:24] <jonasw> it should be "proprietary" right?
[07:16:26] *** lnj has left the room
[07:16:34] <jonasw> fix pushed
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[07:30:54] <MattJ> Yeah, problem confirmed... 5 stuck "pending" s2s connections (out of 200 successful ones), both Daniel's and Sam's servers are affected
[07:31:23] <MattJ> Oh
[07:31:46] <MattJ> 4 of the 5 point to xmpp-hosting.conversations.im.
[07:31:53] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[07:32:10] <flow> Hmm, conversations.im changed the host system
[07:32:14] <jonasw> there was some c.im downtime recently
[07:32:22] <flow> and IIRC sam also said that he migrated to a new system or something
[07:32:33] <flow> could that be a pattern?
[07:32:35] *** andy shows as "away"
[07:32:52] <jonasw> I haven’t had issues with the migration from my side though
[07:32:55] <jonasw> (running prosody 0.9)
[07:33:16] <MattJ> flow, Sam is on xmpp-hosting.conversations.im now too
[07:33:42] <Holger> If there's anything I could check let me know.
[07:34:08] <flow> MattJ, what is the other stuck s2s connection that's not c.im?
[07:34:36] *** winfried shows as "online"
[07:35:07] <MattJ> I don't recognise it (and will assume it's private for now)
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[07:50:26] <MattJ> I'm going to upgrade the server, it's several releases behind
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[07:50:42] <jonasw> to 0.10 or 0.9.x?
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[08:04:43] <MattJ> 0.10.2 of course :)
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[08:18:04] <edhelas> jonasw yup :) thanks
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[08:26:00] <edhelas> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17461213 also
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[08:50:40] <MattJ> Ok, I'm going to upgrade the server now, expect a little bit of downtime, hopefully brief
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[08:51:34] <jonasw> good luck!
[08:51:35] <Seve/SouL> Nooo
[08:51:40] <jonasw> will you load mod_muc from trunk? :)
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[08:53:04] <MattJ> jonasw, not yet :/
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[08:53:27] <jonasw> ok :)
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[08:54:04] <edhelas> soon
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[08:55:52] <MattJ> .
[08:56:21] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[08:56:26] <Seve/SouL> Wooo
[08:56:36] <MattJ> That was too easy
[08:56:40] <Seve/SouL> Haha :D
[08:56:44] *** Seve has joined the room
[08:58:15] <Seve> Now just wait for more people to join the party.
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[08:59:54] <Ge0rG> Now just wait for people to realize that this MUC is too silent for too long.
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[10:28:36] <Seve> :)
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[11:18:09] <edhelas> o/
[11:18:23] <edhelas> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17462101
[11:19:43] <Seve> Heh :)
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[11:22:18] <Ge0rG> That page about the myths of XMPP is only *slightly* biased.
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[11:25:26] <edhelas> you're also invited to read and help with the rest of the thread, I'm trying to answer some questions in there
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[11:31:35] <Seve> Thank you by the way, edhelas
[11:31:46] <Seve> Very appreciated to have people explaining thins!
[11:31:55] <Seve> things*
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[13:25:57] <nyco> so, hey, hi! 😉
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[13:26:45] <MattJ> Oh hi
[13:26:54] <MattJ> Forgot it was that time
[13:27:00] <Seve> o/
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[13:30:53] <nyco> go?
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[13:31:42] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Board Meeting| Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[13:31:48] *ralphm bangs gavel
[13:31:54] <ralphm> 0. Welcome and Agenda
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[13:32:05] <ralphm> Who's here and do you have something for the Agenda?
[13:32:13] <Guus> me. no.
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[13:32:40] <MattJ> Me, I can briefly state the status of the survey results and GDPR
[13:33:05] <nyco> swag
[13:33:13] <ralphm> Ok. Did we get minutes from last meeting?
[13:33:28] <MattJ> No :/
[13:33:40] <404.city> Please add this pull requst https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454
[13:33:50] <MattJ> I'd really appreciate if someone else could do that this week, I'm 2 weeks behind and am going to have less time over the next 7 days
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[13:36:02] <ralphm> Who?
[13:37:13] <Guus> nyco, can you please? I'm neck-deep in work
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[13:38:03] <ralphm> Hoping someone will volunteer still, moving on.
[13:38:07] <ralphm> 1. Survey results
[13:38:09] <nyco> me too
[13:38:11] <nyco> ok
[13:38:12] <nyco> test
[13:38:16] <nyco> me too, but ok
[13:38:21] <nyco> teestststststs
[13:38:27] <ralphm> we got you nyco
[13:38:33] <nyco> wow
[13:38:45] <ralphm> Go MattJ
[13:39:18] <MattJ> Survey results: I have collated the quantitive questions, and the priorities questions, which makes for the bulk of the results
[13:39:46] <MattJ> I don't have them in a nice format right now, but I can send them out right after the meeting once I figure something out
[13:40:12] *Seve is excited.
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[13:41:08] <nyco> yes, please... what's the top one?
[13:42:12] <MattJ> I grouped them by category, the category with the most responses was "Developer/community"
[13:42:23] <nyco> thx
[13:42:49] <MattJ> Containing suggestions such as organising workshops/etc.
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[13:43:37] <nyco> ok
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[13:43:51] <nyco> GDPR?
[13:44:44] <ralphm> 2. GDPR
[13:44:51] <404.city> I'm here to ask about Githab?
[13:45:01] <MattJ> Nothing to report on the GDPR front currently
[13:45:12] <ralphm> 404.city: we're in the middle of a meeting, can you please wait until after. It is not a Board topic.
[13:45:13] <MattJ> I'll try to put some time in over the next week or two
[13:45:38] <ralphm> ok, no worries
[13:45:53] <MattJ> I know I didn't do the minutes, but I think a dangling action item was actually formalizing the team
[13:46:04] <ralphm> Indeed
[13:46:22] <MattJ> I didn't ping Alex again, that was another one
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[13:47:04] <ralphm> Yep.
[13:47:09] <Ge0rG> I might be able to assist with GDPR in the second half of July or later
[13:47:25] <ralphm> Thanks, Ge0rG.
[13:47:34] <ralphm> 3. AOB
[13:47:43] <MattJ> Thanks Ge0rG, same may apply to me
[13:47:53] <nyco> swag?
[13:48:12] <ralphm> As we are nearing summer holidays, one thing that popped up is we need to start preparing council and board elections after. Just to keep in the back of our heads.
[13:48:13] <404.city> MattJ, ralphm Thanks
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[13:48:32] <nyco> or maybe "online shop" or "goodies"?
[13:48:56] <ralphm> nyco: I don't recall what we discussed on this last time, to be honest.
[13:49:09] <nyco> I proposed it as an agenda item
[13:49:26] <nyco> 15:33
[13:49:44] <ralphm> Oh, I missed it
[13:49:48] <ralphm> :-(
[13:49:51] <nyco> no worries
[13:49:58] <Ge0rG> somebody should volunteer to evaluate some shop platforms and obtain Board permission to start a shop?
[13:50:15] <Ge0rG> Then also determine what to do with the money and how to transfer it into XSF accounts?
[13:50:17] <nyco> we are exploring alternatives now
[13:50:22] <Guus> Ge0rG: nyco already did / is.
[13:50:28] <nyco> here is a subset of the alternatives to cafepress that I have found:
https://www.zazzle.com/
https://society6.com/
https://www.vistaprint.com/
[13:50:31] <ralphm> And we probably also want to have an ok on designs going up there
[13:50:36] <nyco> some more are dedicated to T-shirts (and a few more clothes)
some others are made for authors, musicians, and filmmakers.
[13:50:43] <nyco> to me, this seems like the most readable:
https://www.zazzle.com/sell/designers
they say:
Base Price + Your Royalty Percentage = Retail Price
so the pricing+royalties seem clear to me that cafepress
[13:51:04] <nyco> what do you think? does this raise questions and doubts?
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[13:51:44] <ralphm> I'd prefer we can control what items get logos on them. I seem to remember that with cafepress they'd be able to throw it on anything?
[13:51:47] <Guus> nyco: who owns copyright of the designs?
[13:51:59] <ralphm> I'd do this similarly to XEPs, t.b.h.
[13:52:16] <nyco> ralphm I don't remember that
guus us?
[13:52:17] <MattJ> Update XEP-0001 to include coffee mugs?
[13:53:32] <Guus> nyco, yes I remember that we discussed that regarding cafepress. There at least was uncertainty. (I wouldn't mind much, by the way)
[13:54:42] <ralphm> MattJ: well, at least assign rights to the XSF, like in our IPR policy for XEPs (https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy).
[13:55:15] <404.city> I like the scheme of donations for TOR https://donate.torproject.org/pdr You donate, gifts are given to you
[13:56:21] <nyco> all right there seems to be too many interrogations, plus the payment, the bank, etc.
I propose we forget it
[13:56:34] <Guus> ralphm: I'd like to make sure that the shop we end up choosing requires us to do something similar, and assign rights over to them.
[13:56:37] <ralphm> 404.city: this is about selling items. We also have a sponsorship track, and accept donations.
[13:57:02] <ralphm> Guus: does or doesn't?
[13:57:39] <ralphm> Guus: I don't think they ask for copyright assignment, but rather certain licenses to use (for printing)
[13:57:50] <Guus> ralphm: I do not want the shop to own the rights to our designs. I don't have a strong opinion if the XSF or the original designer should have those rights.
[13:58:07] <Guus> ralphm, that would be fine by me.
[13:58:10] <ralphm> Well, having the XSF have rights makes things less complicated later on.
[13:58:31] <Guus> ralphm: probably true.
[13:58:53] <Guus> but we can probably sort that out after we start a quick proof of concept?
[13:59:27] <MattJ> Yeah, I don't see any red flags with Zazzle
[13:59:35] <ralphm> sure
[13:59:41] <MattJ> I'm wondering it it's more expensive (takes a larger cut than Cafepress)
[13:59:44] <nyco> that was just the pricing schema
[14:01:28] <nyco> it's 16:00
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[14:02:12] <ralphm> RIght. Let's have a detailed look and come back on this next time.
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[14:02:24] <ralphm> Curious about shipping rates, too.
[14:02:33] <ralphm> 4. Date of Next
[14:02:35] <ralphm> +1W
[14:02:49] <ralphm> 5. Close
[14:02:51] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[14:02:55] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:02:59] <MattJ> Thanks
[14:03:04] <nyco> +1
thx all
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[14:03:32] <Ge0rG> 404.city: now you can bring up your PR. Maybe Guus or jonasw can just merge it.
[14:03:51] <Ge0rG> Albeit I fear that adding more and more servers will lead that list to become very long.
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[14:04:23] <Ge0rG> I'd love to have a central, well-maintained list of public servers with a high lever feature overview. But keeping that is real work™
[14:04:32] <Ge0rG> And we have already https://conversations.im/compliance/
[14:04:49] <MattJ> Ge0rG, it's been done (and failed) many times
[14:04:56] <Guus> I'm unfamiliar with 404.city, and the github user that made the request is unknown to me. That, plus a suspicion that I at one time saw a lot of abuse from that domain makes me wonder if we should add that to our list.
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[14:05:47] <Ge0rG> MattJ: yes, but it was great to just pull the XML from xmpp.net into my client's auto-completion dropdown values table
[14:06:17] <404.city> Ge0rG, 404.city is one of the largest servers. + 10 000 user for one year.
[14:06:41] <jonasw> MattJ, can you give a quick OK for https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/674/files ?
[14:06:55] <daniel> 404.city, concurrent?
[14:07:18] <Ge0rG> how many of them are spam bots? 😁
[14:07:20] <jonasw> MattJ, nevermind
[14:07:33] <jonasw> Kevin is co-author and ACKed this on-list already
[14:07:35] <daniel> the website says 705 concurrent
[14:07:45] <404.city> +700 online users
[14:08:10] <Ge0rG> yax.im has 1066 clients connected right now.
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[14:08:36] <Ge0rG> 404.city: we can't simply add all servers with 500+ online users to that list.
[14:09:05] <Ge0rG> OTOH, we don't have very good criteria for which ones to add.
[14:09:07] <Zash> Something something neutrality
[14:09:16] <404.city> I am engaged in the promotion of XMPP by providing high-end services.
[14:10:16] <404.city> Some servers in this list do not even allow you to register, and the quality of the servers themselves is poor.
[14:10:44] <Ge0rG> Yes, the current list sucks.
[14:11:35] <Guus> criteria for that list on that page are focussed around how easy it is for a new user to sign up
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[14:11:43] <404.city> Ge0rG, http://jabberworld.info/Список_работающих_публичных_серверов_Jabber
[14:11:44] <Guus> it's the 'getting started' page after all
[14:12:14] <Ge0rG> Guus: then we should remove all servers without IBR from that list
[14:12:41] <Guus> Ge0rG: all servers on the list had a web-based sign-up form at the time they were added to the list.
[14:12:42] <404.city> servers number of people more than 500 on the fingers to count.
[14:12:54] <Ge0rG> Guus: yax.im never did
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[14:13:26] <404.city> https://jabber.at/account/register/
[14:13:54] <Guus> Ge0rG: my original list, that is 🙂
[14:14:03] <Guus> I'm fine with having IBR too, by the way
[14:14:06] <Ge0rG> Guus: I wasn't aware that a web form is a prerequisite ;)
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[14:14:19] <Guus> as long as it's easy for a novice user to register somehow
[14:14:51] <Guus> I never said it's a prerequisite. 🙂
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[14:14:57] <Ge0rG> Guus: it sounded like it.
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[14:15:12] <Ge0rG> Guus: anyway, we need some objective criteria for that list.
[14:15:21] <Ge0rG> I agree with 404.city in that regard.
[14:15:33] <Guus> I said the prerequisite was that the link should offer clear instructions on how to sign up. Which is totally objective as I'll be the judge of what everyone is required to find clear instructions.
[14:15:35] <Guus> 😛
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[14:16:03] <Guus> Ge0rG: I'm a big fan of avoiding loooong discussions on what objective criteria should be.
[14:16:19] <Guus> if someone that I know wants to vouch for that server, I'm happy enough.
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[14:21:32] <404.city> I suggest simply adding 404.city. If you want then you can delete. The server does not exist for long, but the increment is significant. I'm trying to promote XMPP, you could help me in this
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[14:24:00] <Guus> 404.city: I am grateful for you promoting XMPP - but my issue remain: I don't know who you are, I have no experience with your server, and I know no-one that does.
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[14:25:36] <404.city> Guus, Can I help somehow in this matter?
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[14:27:29] <Ge0rG> 404.city: you could also ping daniel to add your server to https://status.conversations.im/
[14:27:48] <daniel> status.conversations.im/add
[14:28:04] <Guus> 404.city: it wouldn't hurt for you to be fully anonymous - but again, I'm primarily looking for other people to tell me that they've used your server, and are happy with it.
[14:28:23] <edhelas> daniel that's a nice tool :)
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[14:29:39] <Guus> 404.city: in the mean time, I'm getting private messages to the contrary, by the way. It's suggested that you've been experiencing load-related issues. Is that true? If so, it does not seem smart to invite more people to your server.
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[14:31:11] <edhelas> movim.eu added to the list :)
[14:31:20] <404.city> Guus, No, I have no problems.
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[14:33:52] <404.city> Guus, The current state of the server can withstand 10,000 people online
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[14:34:39] <Guus> Good.
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[14:42:22] <404.city> The only problem is that nobody knows about the 404.city. He does not exist for 15 years, as Jabber.ru (7000 user oline) and XMPP.org (17000 user online). Other server the list Jwchat ~900user online. Do not forget that statistics can be shown in different ways. If I show all people per day, it will be more than 404.city= ~1500 people.If I show all the devices connected, then it will be even more. 700 people is a user without cheating.
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[14:44:21] <edhelas> 404.city you have a typo on your homepage
[14:44:27] <edhelas> " Convesations Legacy", for all the buttons
[14:44:47] <daniel> 404.city: there are plenty of smaller / new servers that found their audience
[14:44:59] <daniel> Without being listed on xmpp.org
[14:45:12] <daniel> Just be patient
[14:45:28] <daniel> Also slow and steady growth is better for everyone
[14:45:39] <Ge0rG> you can promote your server by other means, to get more people on board :)
[14:46:06] <Ge0rG> we are trying to spread the load anyway. It's much worse to have 10 servers with 100k users each than 1000 servers with 1000 users each.
[14:46:15] <Ge0rG> because if one server dies, the impact is much bigger
[14:46:20] <edhelas> 404.city ensure that the users that you have are also valid :) it's easy to claim thousands of active users and have plenty of bots and spammers in them
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[14:48:53] <404.city> 404 uses captcha for register
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[14:50:12] <edhelas> I'm not sure if it's enough :)
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[14:51:11] <404.city> Ge0rG, Why do not you promote your server yax.im in a different way?
[14:52:02] <Ge0rG> 404.city: yax.im is there to make onboarding for users of yaxim easier.
[14:52:19] <Ge0rG> 404.city: it's preselected in yaxim. I don't see an urgent need to become the largest XMPP server ever.
[14:52:46] <404.city> edhelas, In addition to captcha, there is a limit on sending subscriptions.
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[14:53:51] <Guus> the point of that list is not to promote a server. The point of that list is to make it easier for new users to get started with XMPP.
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[14:55:25] <404.city> Guus, The server 404.city is made to simplify this task as much as possible
[14:55:41] <Ge0rG> captchas make that harder ;)
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[14:56:41] <404.city> Ge0rG, Spam is bad.
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[14:57:38] <Ge0rG> I know that first-hand.
[14:58:12] <404.city> Ge0rG, To me, too, used to come spam from your server
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[14:59:01] <Ge0rG> 404.city: I'm sure you immediately reported it ;)
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[15:00:12] <404.city> Ge0rG, No, I did not report it otherwise than in the conference of operators
[15:00:38] <Ge0rG> I'm monitoring the operators@ MUC, most of the time.
[15:01:09] <Ge0rG> But it's better to report directly. I'm taking those things seriously
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[15:31:13] <404.city> edhelas, Thanks, I corrected the typo
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[15:51:22] <edhelas> :)
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[18:45:33] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[20:02:13] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[20:14:38] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:15:05] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
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[20:53:57] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:54:28] *** 404.city has left the room
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[21:12:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[21:25:08] *** Ge0rG has left the room
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[21:40:17] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[22:02:07] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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