XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-07-05


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  165. jonasw so Daniel and Sam are reporting issues accessing the XSF MUCs. can somebody look into that, MattJ maybe?
  166. MattJ I can
  167. MattJ Do they have any more details?
  168. Ge0rG I'd just blame lack of self-awareness in typical MUC clients.
  169. jonasw MattJ, not more than whats on standards@
  170. jonasw I *guess* itโ€™ll be hard to ask them here ;-)
  171. Ge0rG Sam has been joining and leaving the council@ MUC yesterday, at least.
  172. edhelas I found a little typo on the main website "propriatary binary XMPP protocol."
  173. edhelas on https://xmpp.org/uses/social.html
  174. jonasw it should be "proprietary" right?
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  186. MattJ Yeah, problem confirmed... 5 stuck "pending" s2s connections (out of 200 successful ones), both Daniel's and Sam's servers are affected
  187. MattJ Oh
  188. MattJ 4 of the 5 point to xmpp-hosting.conversations.im.
  189. flow Hmm, conversations.im changed the host system
  190. jonasw there was some c.im downtime recently
  191. flow and IIRC sam also said that he migrated to a new system or something
  192. flow could that be a pattern?
  193. jonasw I havenโ€™t had issues with the migration from my side though
  194. jonasw (running prosody 0.9)
  195. MattJ flow, Sam is on xmpp-hosting.conversations.im now too
  196. Holger If there's anything I could check let me know.
  197. flow MattJ, what is the other stuck s2s connection that's not c.im?
  198. MattJ I don't recognise it (and will assume it's private for now)
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  214. MattJ I'm going to upgrade the server, it's several releases behind
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  216. jonasw to 0.10 or 0.9.x?
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  230. MattJ 0.10.2 of course :)
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  242. edhelas jonasw yup :) thanks
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  252. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17461213 also
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  273. MattJ Ok, I'm going to upgrade the server now, expect a little bit of downtime, hopefully brief
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  275. jonasw good luck!
  276. Seve/SouL Nooo
  277. jonasw will you load mod_muc from trunk? :)
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  279. MattJ jonasw, not yet :/
  280. jonasw ok :)
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  284. edhelas soon
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  288. MattJ .
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  290. Seve/SouL Wooo
  291. MattJ That was too easy
  292. Seve/SouL Haha :D
  293. Seve has joined
  294. Seve Now just wait for more people to join the party.
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  298. Ge0rG Now just wait for people to realize that this MUC is too silent for too long.
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  376. Seve :)
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  406. edhelas o/
  407. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17462101
  408. Seve Heh :)
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  410. Ge0rG That page about the myths of XMPP is only *slightly* biased.
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  412. edhelas you're also invited to read and help with the rest of the thread, I'm trying to answer some questions in there
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  418. Seve Thank you by the way, edhelas
  419. Seve Very appreciated to have people explaining thins!
  420. Seve things*
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  496. nyco so, hey, hi! ๐Ÿ˜‰
  497. MattJ Oh hi
  498. MattJ Forgot it was that time
  499. Seve o/
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  501. nyco go?
  502. ralphm has joined
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  504. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting| Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  505. ralphm bangs gavel
  506. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  507. ralphm Who's here and do you have something for the Agenda?
  508. Guus me. no.
  509. waqas has joined
  510. MattJ Me, I can briefly state the status of the survey results and GDPR
  511. nyco swag
  512. ralphm Ok. Did we get minutes from last meeting?
  513. MattJ No :/
  514. 404.city Please add this pull requst https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454
  515. MattJ I'd really appreciate if someone else could do that this week, I'm 2 weeks behind and am going to have less time over the next 7 days
  516. jere has joined
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  518. ralphm Who?
  519. Guus nyco, can you please? I'm neck-deep in work
  520. ralphm Hoping someone will volunteer still, moving on.
  521. ralphm 1. Survey results
  522. nyco me too
  523. nyco ok
  524. nyco test
  525. nyco me too, but ok
  526. nyco teestststststs
  527. ralphm we got you nyco
  528. nyco wow
  529. ralphm Go MattJ
  530. MattJ Survey results: I have collated the quantitive questions, and the priorities questions, which makes for the bulk of the results
  531. MattJ I don't have them in a nice format right now, but I can send them out right after the meeting once I figure something out
  532. Seve is excited.
  533. lorddavidiii has left
  534. nyco yes, please... what's the top one?
  535. MattJ I grouped them by category, the category with the most responses was "Developer/community"
  536. nyco thx
  537. MattJ Containing suggestions such as organising workshops/etc.
  538. nyco ok
  539. marmistrz has left
  540. nyco GDPR?
  541. ralphm 2. GDPR
  542. 404.city I'm here to ask about Githab?
  543. MattJ Nothing to report on the GDPR front currently
  544. ralphm 404.city: we're in the middle of a meeting, can you please wait until after. It is not a Board topic.
  545. MattJ I'll try to put some time in over the next week or two
  546. ralphm ok, no worries
  547. MattJ I know I didn't do the minutes, but I think a dangling action item was actually formalizing the team
  548. ralphm Indeed
  549. MattJ I didn't ping Alex again, that was another one
  550. MattJ has left
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  552. ralphm Yep.
  553. Ge0rG I might be able to assist with GDPR in the second half of July or later
  554. ralphm Thanks, Ge0rG.
  555. ralphm 3. AOB
  556. MattJ Thanks Ge0rG, same may apply to me
  557. nyco swag?
  558. ralphm As we are nearing summer holidays, one thing that popped up is we need to start preparing council and board elections after. Just to keep in the back of our heads.
  559. 404.city MattJ, ralphm Thanks
  560. Ge0rG has left
  561. nyco or maybe "online shop" or "goodies"?
  562. ralphm nyco: I don't recall what we discussed on this last time, to be honest.
  563. nyco I proposed it as an agenda item
  564. nyco 15:33
  565. ralphm Oh, I missed it
  566. ralphm :-(
  567. nyco no worries
  568. Ge0rG somebody should volunteer to evaluate some shop platforms and obtain Board permission to start a shop?
  569. Ge0rG Then also determine what to do with the money and how to transfer it into XSF accounts?
  570. nyco we are exploring alternatives now
  571. Guus Ge0rG: nyco already did / is.
  572. nyco here is a subset of the alternatives to cafepress that I have found: https://www.zazzle.com/ https://society6.com/ https://www.vistaprint.com/
  573. ralphm And we probably also want to have an ok on designs going up there
  574. nyco some more are dedicated to T-shirts (and a few more clothes) some others are made for authors, musicians, and filmmakers.
  575. nyco to me, this seems like the most readable: https://www.zazzle.com/sell/designers they say: Base Price + Your Royalty Percentage = Retail Price so the pricing+royalties seem clear to me that cafepress
  576. nyco what do you think? does this raise questions and doubts?
  577. andy has left
  578. ralphm I'd prefer we can control what items get logos on them. I seem to remember that with cafepress they'd be able to throw it on anything?
  579. Guus nyco: who owns copyright of the designs?
  580. ralphm I'd do this similarly to XEPs, t.b.h.
  581. nyco ralphm I don't remember that guus us?
  582. MattJ Update XEP-0001 to include coffee mugs?
  583. Guus nyco, yes I remember that we discussed that regarding cafepress. There at least was uncertainty. (I wouldn't mind much, by the way)
  584. ralphm MattJ: well, at least assign rights to the XSF, like in our IPR policy for XEPs (https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy).
  585. 404.city I like the scheme of donations for TOR https://donate.torproject.org/pdr You donate, gifts are given to you
  586. nyco all right there seems to be too many interrogations, plus the payment, the bank, etc. I propose we forget it
  587. Guus ralphm: I'd like to make sure that the shop we end up choosing requires us to do something similar, and assign rights over to them.
  588. ralphm 404.city: this is about selling items. We also have a sponsorship track, and accept donations.
  589. ralphm Guus: does or doesn't?
  590. ralphm Guus: I don't think they ask for copyright assignment, but rather certain licenses to use (for printing)
  591. Guus ralphm: I do not want the shop to own the rights to our designs. I don't have a strong opinion if the XSF or the original designer should have those rights.
  592. Guus ralphm, that would be fine by me.
  593. ralphm Well, having the XSF have rights makes things less complicated later on.
  594. Guus ralphm: probably true.
  595. Guus but we can probably sort that out after we start a quick proof of concept?
  596. MattJ Yeah, I don't see any red flags with Zazzle
  597. ralphm sure
  598. MattJ I'm wondering it it's more expensive (takes a larger cut than Cafepress)
  599. nyco that was just the pricing schema
  600. nyco it's 16:00
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  602. ralphm RIght. Let's have a detailed look and come back on this next time.
  603. MattJ has left
  604. ralphm Curious about shipping rates, too.
  605. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  606. ralphm +1W
  607. ralphm 5. Close
  608. ralphm Thanks all!
  609. ralphm bangs gavel
  610. MattJ Thanks
  611. nyco +1 thx all
  612. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  613. Ge0rG 404.city: now you can bring up your PR. Maybe Guus or jonasw can just merge it.
  614. Ge0rG Albeit I fear that adding more and more servers will lead that list to become very long.
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  617. Ge0rG I'd love to have a central, well-maintained list of public servers with a high lever feature overview. But keeping that is real workโ„ข
  618. Ge0rG And we have already https://conversations.im/compliance/
  619. MattJ Ge0rG, it's been done (and failed) many times
  620. Guus I'm unfamiliar with 404.city, and the github user that made the request is unknown to me. That, plus a suspicion that I at one time saw a lot of abuse from that domain makes me wonder if we should add that to our list.
  621. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, but it was great to just pull the XML from xmpp.net into my client's auto-completion dropdown values table
  622. 404.city Ge0rG, 404.city is one of the largest servers. + 10 000 user for one year.
  623. jonasw MattJ, can you give a quick OK for https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/674/files ?
  624. daniel 404.city, concurrent?
  625. Ge0rG how many of them are spam bots? ๐Ÿ˜
  626. jonasw MattJ, nevermind
  627. jonasw Kevin is co-author and ACKed this on-list already
  628. daniel the website says 705 concurrent
  629. 404.city +700 online users
  630. Ge0rG yax.im has 1066 clients connected right now.
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  632. Ge0rG 404.city: we can't simply add all servers with 500+ online users to that list.
  633. Ge0rG OTOH, we don't have very good criteria for which ones to add.
  634. Zash Something something neutrality
  635. 404.city I am engaged in the promotion of XMPP by providing high-end services.
  636. 404.city Some servers in this list do not even allow you to register, and the quality of the servers themselves is poor.
  637. Ge0rG Yes, the current list sucks.
  638. Guus criteria for that list on that page are focussed around how easy it is for a new user to sign up
  639. 404.city Ge0rG, http://jabberworld.info/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%8E%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2_Jabber
  640. Guus it's the 'getting started' page after all
  641. Ge0rG Guus: then we should remove all servers without IBR from that list
  642. Guus Ge0rG: all servers on the list had a web-based sign-up form at the time they were added to the list.
  643. 404.city servers number of people more than 500 on the fingers to count.
  644. Ge0rG Guus: yax.im never did
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  649. 404.city https://jabber.at/account/register/
  650. Guus Ge0rG: my original list, that is ๐Ÿ™‚
  651. Guus I'm fine with having IBR too, by the way
  652. Ge0rG Guus: I wasn't aware that a web form is a prerequisite ;)
  653. edhelas has left
  654. Guus as long as it's easy for a novice user to register somehow
  655. Guus I never said it's a prerequisite. ๐Ÿ™‚
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  657. Ge0rG Guus: it sounded like it.
  658. edhelas has left
  659. Ge0rG Guus: anyway, we need some objective criteria for that list.
  660. Ge0rG I agree with 404.city in that regard.
  661. Guus I said the prerequisite was that the link should offer clear instructions on how to sign up. Which is totally objective as I'll be the judge of what everyone is required to find clear instructions.
  662. Guus ๐Ÿ˜›
  663. Guus Ge0rG: I'm a big fan of avoiding loooong discussions on what objective criteria should be.
  664. Guus if someone that I know wants to vouch for that server, I'm happy enough.
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  668. 404.city I suggest simply adding 404.city. If you want then you can delete. The server does not exist for long, but the increment is significant. I'm trying to promote XMPP, you could help me in this
  669. Chobbes has joined
  670. Guus 404.city: I am grateful for you promoting XMPP - but my issue remain: I don't know who you are, I have no experience with your server, and I know no-one that does.
  671. Alex has left
  672. 404.city Guus, Can I help somehow in this matter?
  673. Ge0rG 404.city: you could also ping daniel to add your server to https://status.conversations.im/
  674. daniel status.conversations.im/add
  675. Guus 404.city: it wouldn't hurt for you to be fully anonymous - but again, I'm primarily looking for other people to tell me that they've used your server, and are happy with it.
  676. edhelas daniel that's a nice tool :)
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  681. Guus 404.city: in the mean time, I'm getting private messages to the contrary, by the way. It's suggested that you've been experiencing load-related issues. Is that true? If so, it does not seem smart to invite more people to your server.
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  685. edhelas movim.eu added to the list :)
  686. 404.city Guus, No, I have no problems.
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  693. 404.city Guus, The current state of the server can withstand 10,000 people online
  694. Guus Good.
  695. 404.city The only problem is that nobody knows about the 404.city. He does not exist for 15 years, as Jabber.ru (7000 user oline) and XMPP.org (17000 user online). Other server the list Jwchat ~900user online. Do not forget that statistics can be shown in different ways. If I show all people per day, it will be more than 404.city= ~1500 people.If I show all the devices connected, then it will be even more. 700 people is a user without cheating.
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  701. edhelas 404.city you have a typo on your homepage
  702. edhelas " Convesations Legacy", for all the buttons
  703. daniel 404.city: there are plenty of smaller / new servers that found their audience
  704. daniel Without being listed on xmpp.org
  705. daniel Just be patient
  706. daniel Also slow and steady growth is better for everyone
  707. Ge0rG you can promote your server by other means, to get more people on board :)
  708. Ge0rG we are trying to spread the load anyway. It's much worse to have 10 servers with 100k users each than 1000 servers with 1000 users each.
  709. Ge0rG because if one server dies, the impact is much bigger
  710. edhelas 404.city ensure that the users that you have are also valid :) it's easy to claim thousands of active users and have plenty of bots and spammers in them
  711. MattJ has left
  712. 404.city 404 uses captcha for register
  713. Ge0rG has left
  714. edhelas I'm not sure if it's enough :)
  715. 404.city Ge0rG, Why do not you promote your server yax.im in a different way?
  716. Ge0rG 404.city: yax.im is there to make onboarding for users of yaxim easier.
  717. Ge0rG 404.city: it's preselected in yaxim. I don't see an urgent need to become the largest XMPP server ever.
  718. 404.city edhelas, In addition to captcha, there is a limit on sending subscriptions.
  719. Guus the point of that list is not to promote a server. The point of that list is to make it easier for new users to get started with XMPP.
  720. 404.city Guus, The server 404.city is made to simplify this task as much as possible
  721. Ge0rG captchas make that harder ;)
  722. 404.city Ge0rG, Spam is bad.
  723. Ge0rG I know that first-hand.
  724. 404.city Ge0rG, To me, too, used to come spam from your server
  725. Ge0rG 404.city: I'm sure you immediately reported it ;)
  726. 404.city Ge0rG, No, I did not report it otherwise than in the conference of operators
  727. Ge0rG I'm monitoring the operators@ MUC, most of the time.
  728. Ge0rG But it's better to report directly. I'm taking those things seriously
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  749. 404.city edhelas, Thanks, I corrected the typo
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  759. edhelas :)
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