Friday, July 06, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:10:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:10:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:11:58] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[10:11:58] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:12:27] *** lumi shows as "online"
[10:13:47] *** rion has left the room
[10:13:52] *** Kev has left the room
[10:14:19] *** Yagiza has left the room
[10:14:41] *** Yagiza has joined the room
[10:14:50] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[10:15:16] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:15:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:15:29] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:15:56] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:16:06] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:16:09] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:16:09] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:20:03] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[10:20:35] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:21:19] *** labdsf has left the room
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[10:21:59] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[10:22:20] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[10:22:20] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[10:22:28] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[10:22:33] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[10:24:44] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[10:24:49] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:25:48] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:25:57] *** jonasw has left the room
[10:26:29] *** andy shows as "away"
[10:27:23] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[10:27:28] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[10:27:51] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[10:27:55] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[10:28:08] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:28:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:28:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[10:28:38] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:29:17] *** winfried shows as "online"
[10:29:20] *** winfried shows as "online"
[10:29:21] *** edhelas has left the room
[10:29:23] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:29:40] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[10:30:03] *** edhelas has joined the room
[10:30:39] *** edhelas has joined the room
[10:31:13] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:31:15] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:31:29] *** andy shows as "xa"
[10:33:06] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:33:07] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[10:33:34] *** rishiraj22 has joined the room
[10:33:38] *** daniel has left the room
[10:35:33] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:37:11] *** alexis has left the room
[10:37:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:37:30] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[10:37:43] *** alexis has joined the room
[10:39:34] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:41:44] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:43:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:43:44] *** jonasw has left the room
[10:43:52] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:44:21] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:44:21] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:44:22] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[10:44:34] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:44:52] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:44:55] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[10:45:12] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:45:33] *** jubalh shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:45:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[10:45:41] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[10:45:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:46:20] *** Zash shows as "online"
[10:46:24] *** Zash shows as "online"
[10:48:10] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:48:32] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[10:49:03] *** jonasw has left the room
[10:49:27] *** anjan shows as "online"
[10:50:09] *** Guus has left the room
[10:50:37] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:50:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:51:31] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:51:34] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:52:45] *** Guus shows as "online"
[10:53:12] *** andy shows as "online"
[10:53:28] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:54:27] *** anjan shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:54:54] *** edhelas shows as "online"
[10:54:57] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[10:55:00] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[10:55:20] *** edhelas has left the room
[10:59:52] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[10:59:55] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:00:12] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:00:41] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[11:00:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:02:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:03:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:04:18] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[11:04:27] *** anjan shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:05:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:05:57] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:06:31] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:06:34] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:06:46] *** mikaela has joined the room
[11:07:56] *** daniel has left the room
[11:07:59] *** daniel has joined the room
[11:08:57] *** j.r has joined the room
[11:09:48] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:12:12] *** alexis has left the room
[11:12:35] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[11:12:38] *** alexis has joined the room
[11:14:55] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:15:53] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:15:56] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:18:30] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:19:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:20:55] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:21:00] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[11:21:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:21:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[11:21:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[11:21:54] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:21:54] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[11:23:10] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:24:18] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[11:28:31] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[11:29:55] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:30:46] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:30:50] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:31:28] *** j.r has joined the room
[11:32:03] *** daniel has left the room
[11:32:05] *** daniel has joined the room
[11:32:09] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:32:59] *** alexis has left the room
[11:33:26] *** alexis has joined the room
[11:33:27] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[11:33:31] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[11:36:44] *** ta shows as "online"
[11:37:08] *** jubalh has left the room
[11:37:12] *** winfried shows as "online"
[11:37:48] *** winfried has left the room
[11:41:38] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:42:11] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[11:45:30] *** rishiraj22 has joined the room
[11:45:40] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:45:41] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:48:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:49:08] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[11:50:28] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[11:50:30] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[11:51:39] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "sssssttttt! my computer fell asleep"
[11:54:44] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:54:47] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[11:55:00] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
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[11:58:31] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:59:21] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[12:01:09] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:01:11] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:04:57] *** valo has joined the room
[12:07:04] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[12:07:16] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:08:19] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:09:18] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:09:50] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[12:09:54] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:10:07] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[12:10:37] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:10:40] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:11:27] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[12:11:39] *** Guus has left the room
[12:11:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[12:13:45] *** jubalh has joined the room
[12:15:45] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[12:16:16] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:16:17] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:17:27] *** andy shows as "away"
[12:17:43] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:18:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:19:30] *** andy shows as "online"
[12:21:39] *** muppeth has joined the room
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[12:26:12] *** blabla shows as "online"
[12:26:23] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[12:26:26] *** Holger shows as "online"
[12:27:58] *** Guus shows as "online"
[12:28:34] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:28:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:28:37] *** Valerian shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[12:28:37] *** Valerian shows as "online"
[12:30:16] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
[12:30:35] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:30:37] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:30:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[12:31:48] *** edhelas has left the room
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[12:32:55] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[12:33:25] *** andy shows as "away"
[12:33:39] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:33:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:34:29] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:35:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:35:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:35:50] *** rainslide has joined the room
[12:36:07] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[12:37:07] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:37:42] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[12:38:07] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:38:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:38:24] <jonasw> when receiving a presence subscription without a roster entry existing, the server does *not* create a roster entry as per RFC 6121 § 3.1.3:
> Security Warning: Until and unless the contact approves the subscription request as described under Section 3.1.4, the contact's server MUST NOT add an item for the user to the contact's roster.

To deny a subscription request, a client uses the flow described in RFC 6121 § 3.2.1+:
> If a contact would like to […] deny a subscription request, it sends a presence stanza of type "unsubscribed".

Later on in § 3.2.2:
> The contact's server then MUST send a roster push with the updated roster item to all of the contact's interested resources, where the subscription state is now either "none" or "to" (see Appendix A).

Two questions:
1. This seems inconsistent, because there is no roster item as per § 3.1.3. Am I wrong/missing something?
2. How, if at all, are other resources of the *rejecting* user informed about the fact that the subscription request was rejected?
[12:38:24] *** andy shows as "xa"
[12:39:09] <Kev> By the roster push.
[12:39:16] <jonasw> the roster push for the non-existent item?
[12:39:19] <Kev> :)
[12:39:34] <Zash> wat
[12:39:36] <jonasw> this would effectively create an item
[12:39:44] <jonasw> because subscription="none" is perfectly valid for a roster item
[12:39:50] <jonasw> and thus be in violation of 3.1.3
[12:39:54] *** andy shows as "online"
[12:39:59] <jonasw> and cause all kinds of funny out-of-sync stuff
[12:40:05] <jonasw> (if the server doesn’t also add that item)
[12:40:59] <jonasw> what do existing servers do?
[12:40:59] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[12:41:36] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[12:42:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:44:27] *** Valerian has left the room
[12:44:27] *** Valerian has joined the room
[12:44:41] <MattJ> https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/tip/plugins/mod_presence.lua#l163
[12:45:05] <MattJ> "FIXME" ;)
[12:45:15] <jonasw> this is about unsubscribed, not unsubscribe
[12:45:32] <MattJ> Ah right
[12:45:43] *** tux shows as "online"
[12:45:55] <MattJ> It looks like we skip the roster push then
[12:45:55] <Zash> Can haz The Great Presence State Tests
[12:46:54] <jonasw> skipping the roster push is the right thing™ imo (as I said above), but this means there’s no way for resources to know when the subscription request has been denied
[12:47:01] <jonasw> except by reconnecting and not receiving the type="subscribe" again
[12:47:05] <jonasw> "meh"
[12:47:23] *** rion shows as "online"
[12:47:53] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[12:47:54] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[12:49:11] *** marc has left the room
[12:50:57] <flow> jonasw, write a XEP that will forward the unsubscribe presence to the other resources of the client
[12:51:06] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
[12:51:16] <jonasw> flow, so you’d forward a stanza with @to not equal to the clients address to the client?
[12:51:27] <flow> I think that would be the first use case where there is a presence in <forwarded/>
[12:51:39] <jonasw> what would be the outer thing? message?
[12:51:50] <flow> yep, and a special extension element
[12:51:55] <jonasw> hurr-durr
[12:52:11] <flow> cause onions and their layers are cool
[12:53:56] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[12:54:03] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[12:56:14] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:56:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[12:56:48] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[12:58:25] *** rainslide has left the room
[12:58:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:00:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:00:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:02:19] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:02:20] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:02:44] *** marc has joined the room
[13:03:57] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[13:04:26] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[13:05:00] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:05:31] *** j.r has left the room
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[13:08:19] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[13:08:37] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:08:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:10:02] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:11:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[13:12:12] *** Holger has left the room
[13:12:13] *** Holger shows as "online"
[13:13:00] *** nyco shows as "online"
[13:14:49] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
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[13:16:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[13:16:39] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:16:42] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:18:51] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[13:19:13] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
[13:20:39] *** jere has joined the room
[13:21:29] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:22:44] *** andy shows as "away"
[13:23:05] *** andy shows as "online"
[13:24:05] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Online"
[13:25:01] *** j.r has left the room
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[13:27:21] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[13:32:53] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:32:55] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
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[13:45:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[13:45:36] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[13:47:18] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[13:48:50] *** pep. shows as "online"
[13:49:51] *** andy has left the room
[13:51:59] *** pep. has left the room
[13:52:01] *** pep. shows as "online"
[13:56:24] *** winfried shows as "online"
[13:56:25] *** winfried shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[13:57:44] *** winfried shows as "online"
[14:00:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[14:00:35] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[14:01:21] <jonasw> so XEP-0045 apparently suggests to put full JIDs in MUC occupant <item/> info things (e.g. <presence><x><item jid=".../foo"/></x></presence>). do servers include multiple items if multiple resources are connected?
[14:01:33] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[14:02:01] <MattJ> Prosody picks one at random
[14:02:23] <jonasw> right
[14:02:40] <jonasw> going ahead with the plan of dropping that on the client
[14:02:59] <MattJ> Dropping the real JID?
[14:03:05] <jonasw> no, dropping the resource
[14:03:07] <MattJ> Dropping the resource?
[14:03:08] <jonasw> (from the real JID)
[14:03:16] <MattJ> Yeah
[14:03:26] <MattJ> Resources shouldn't be seen by users anyway :)
[14:03:30] <jonasw> it breaks my understanding of aioxmpp’s APIs (which is a weird thing to say as the main dev)
[14:03:47] <jonasw> this is not about end-users, but about library users
[14:03:56] <jonasw> *shrug* if they want that information they have to sniff the presence stanzas :)
[14:04:04] <MattJ> +1
[14:04:46] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[14:05:01] <MattJ> I don't expect much would break if we just made it the bare JID on the server
[14:05:12] <MattJ> But not sure I can be bothered to find out
[14:06:15] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[14:07:43] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[14:11:38] <daniel> Conversations actually utilizes the full jid
[14:12:12] <daniel> Because some servers still don't include 110 and then being able to match the full jid is a nice fall back
[14:12:59] <MattJ> :/
[14:13:10] *** marmistrz shows as "online"
[14:13:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:13:50] <jonasw> I refuse to interoperate with those servers.
[14:14:01] <jonasw> *sigh*
[14:14:27] <jonasw> daniel, do you have statistics how often that occurs and which software versions are affected?
[14:15:09] *** Guus has left the room
[14:15:32] <daniel> Having metrics in Conversations for every time one of my many fun little work around gets triggered would be pretty cool
[14:15:40] <daniel> But my audience hates metrics
[14:15:44] <daniel> So no
[14:16:25] <jonasw> do you happen to know the server which caused you to write the workaround?
[14:16:33] <jonasw> I wonder whether I could add scans for such things to muclumbus
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[14:17:44] <daniel> Well there is definitely more than one. Because 110 is a late addition to 45 AFAIK.
[14:18:05] <daniel> There are some servers which don't include it in all circumstances
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[14:18:33] <daniel> I think ejabberd community didn't include it in error stanzas up until a while ago
[14:18:49] <daniel> Ejabberd SaaS doesn't include it in affiliation changes
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[14:21:04] <muppeth> nyco: about swag. I started a project called aptgetshirt.com while back where we produce (print) shirts and donate 50% of profit to projects. We use water based inks and fair trade (organic) garment as oppose to slave labor zazzle and alike. We thought of running xmpp shirt campaign somewhere around november, since you guys are looking for something we could work together on that. We also start slowly with stickers too.
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[14:36:12] <MattJ> muppeth, sounds great!
[14:36:34] <nyco> Thanks alot @muppeth
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[15:18:53] <MattJ> <number>102</number>
<stanza>message</stanza>
<context>Configuration change</context>
<purpose>
Inform occupants that room now shows unavailable members
</purpose>
[15:18:56] <MattJ> What
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[18:00:10] <muppeth> MattJ, nyco: i'll get back to you once we are properly up and running. currently we just re-launched the webshop and selling old stock, plus setting up our own silkscreen studio to cut the costs and be able to produce smaller batches on demand. My jid is muppeth@disroot.org
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[19:12:44] <pep.> Am I the only one seeing 404.city stuck typing?
[19:13:11] <MattJ> You are not
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[19:22:37] <404.city> pep., I fell asleep by putting the phone on the key
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[19:25:53] <pep.> nice
[19:27:49] <Seve> :)
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[19:37:20] <pep.> I was already picturing client bug
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