Tuesday, July 10, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:37:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:37:12] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:39:52] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[10:41:02] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:41:03] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[11:15:19] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[14:37:22] <MattJ> Should a MUC room require a password for affiliated JIDs?
[14:37:33] <MattJ> XEP-0045 is silent on the matter as far as I can tell
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[14:38:20] <Ge0rG> I'd say yes, for consistency reasons.
[14:38:26] <Ge0rG> But then again... 🤔
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[14:41:13] <Kev> I think xep45 should be inconsistent, for consistency reasons.
[14:41:31] <jonasw> well played
[14:42:18] <MattJ> and another case I just hit... if a password is supplied but the room isn't password-protected...? :)
[14:42:23] <Ge0rG> is that due to process consistency, or due to consistency process?
[14:42:47] <jonasw> MattJ, uh... ignore?
[14:42:51] <Kev> Ge0rG: Not sure, but I think so.
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[14:42:53] <Ge0rG> MattJ: I'd say: if the joining user is admin/owner, the room should be updated to use the password, otherwise, the user join be rejected.
[14:43:02] <Zash> What if a password is given in the room creation stanza?
[14:43:05] <Ge0rG> </s>
[14:43:25] <Kev> MattJ: There's an argument for rejecting, I think.
[14:43:35] <Kev> If the security properties of the room have changed unexpectedly.
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[14:45:07] <MattJ> That's what Prosody currently does, it seems
[14:45:08] <Ge0rG> This is the kind of argument that we owe proxy JIDs to.
[14:45:33] <MattJ> But it doesn't seem very useful (or requiring a password for owner/admin/member)
[14:46:37] <Ge0rG> Yeah, I can see how it might be useful to let the admins in without a password.
[14:46:54] <Kev> Or at least owners.
[14:47:37] <Ge0rG> if the owner wants to exclude admins, they should remove them from the affiliation list first?
[14:47:52] <Kev> Fair.
[14:49:25] <Ge0rG> maybe we should deprecate passwords for the sake of explicit affiliation management and namespace-bump?
[14:49:37] <MattJ> No thanks
[14:49:43] <MattJ> I just used passwords for something
[14:50:01] <Ge0rG> for whatthing?
[14:50:05] <jonasw> namespace-bump XEP-0045.
[14:50:11] <MattJ> jonasw, good idea
[14:50:15] <jonasw> can we tempban Ge0rG from all MUCs for this day? he’s trolling too much :)
[14:50:35] <MattJ> Ge0rG, a system where you invite one JID, but a different JID will join
[14:51:26] <MattJ> So I made a module that injects an invite token into the outgoing invite's password field, and validates the token provided as the password of the joining user
[14:51:34] <jonasw> uhhh
[14:51:37] <jonasw> I’m interested
[14:51:39] <jonasw> I want MUC invites
[14:51:42] <jonasw> to members only MUCs
[14:51:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I was just going to say that this isn't possible due to the federated nature of XMPP, but then I realized that there is a person in this MUC who could disable my access to yax.im and firewall me off.
[14:51:44] <jonasw> in onboarding
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[14:52:03] <Ge0rG> MattJ: that's... interesting.
[14:52:08] <Ge0rG> MattJ: but please use PARS instead.
[14:52:31] <Ge0rG> I mean, technically you could just have per-user "passwords" for a MUC, but it feels wrong.
[14:52:36] <Ge0rG> It's a hack.
[14:52:41] <Ge0rG> Actually, I like it.
[14:52:50] <jonasw> :D
[14:53:00] <jonasw> reminds me that I need to try my per-device password SASL authcid hack
[14:53:02] <MattJ> Ge0rG, PARS isn't suitable here, the invite is accepted by a machine
[14:53:17] <jonasw> MattJ, what’s wrong with that?
[14:53:41] <Ge0rG> MattJ: use the PARS wire format to pass tokens along.
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[14:55:48] <MattJ> Ge0rG, so you mean use a <preauth> element instead of a <password> element?
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[14:57:18] <Ge0rG> MattJ: essentially yes, also you could use the URI parameter to carry such invitations via HTTPS
[14:57:57] <MattJ> Maybe in a future version
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[14:58:18] <MattJ> The nice things about passwords is that all the code I was dealing with already supported them
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[14:58:47] <MattJ> (except in reality each component had a bug, such as looking for or putting the password in the wrong place in the stanza)
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[14:59:07] <MattJ> Turns out it's not a child of the <invite> element
[14:59:14] <Ge0rG> MattJ: you could change the server to use the pars token as the primary mechanism but to allow passing the token in the password field
[14:59:31] <Ge0rG> yeah, invitations with passwords are funny.
[14:59:37] <Ge0rG> nobody is checking corner cases
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[20:59:52] <Zash> I'm trying to implement tombstones for MUC. How am I supposed to signal that?
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[21:02:37] <MattJ> Isn't it in XEP-0045?
[21:03:05] <Zash> Not really
[21:03:10] <Zash> Not that I could see at least.
[21:03:39] <MattJ> Oh, you mean signal that the service implements tombstones?
[21:03:59] *** mimi89999 shows as "online"
[21:04:00] <Zash> To signal that, when joining/creating a room, that it's already been destroyed.
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[21:41:42] <Zash> Hm, this seems to work with Gajim
[21:41:52] <Zash> Just needed to not reply with weird <messages>
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