XSF Discussion - 2018-07-11


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  309. Seve/SouL Do you guys know if is there any MUC for Monal?
  310. Ge0rG AFAIK no
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  313. MattJ Does Monal support MUC?
  314. Seve/SouL Yes it does, MattJ
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  408. Yagiza One thought about XEP-0177: Jingle Raw UDP Transport Method...
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  419. Yagiza Section 4.4 says, that upon sending/receiving session-accept action, entity should start immediately send media.
  420. Yagiza So, application level XEP's will start doing job before they even sure the connection succeed. Is it a good idea?
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  424. Yagiza Maybe it's better for transport XEP start sending something meaningless, independent from application level XEP, like 1 datagram of '\0' byte 10 times per second.
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  426. Yagiza And once it receives a datagram, stop sending it and notify application, that connection succeed, to let it send real media.
  427. flow How do you know for sure that a single null byte is meaningless?
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  429. flow And to answer your first question: I don't see a problem doing what the XEP demands, but maybe I miss something?
  430. jonasw Yagiza, it doesn’t matter
  431. jonasw Yagiza, UDP is lossy anyways, and the media layer needs to be able to cope with loss
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  433. Yagiza flow, I'm not sure. But at least it consumes less traffic and we may be sure that application won't start sending anything useful before connection succeed. And it will make transport level XEP really independent from application level XEPs.
  434. flow jonasw, I think Yagiza possibly had error cases like "could not connect to remote host" in mind
  435. flow But even those could be dedected after sending the data over the UDP stream
  436. jonasw flow, yupp, exactly
  437. jonasw and if everything is fine, it speeds up sending of media
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  439. flow Yagiza, I still don't see the problem
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  441. flow Yagiza, also UDP is stateless, there is no connection succeeded in TCP style
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  443. jonasw and inventing your own handshake on top of UDP is...meh
  444. flow your network stack will eventually notify you if it became aware that the UDP packets don't arrive at the destination
  445. flow but they could also simply go down into a black hole
  446. Yagiza Yes. Receiving data is the sign, that connection succeed. So, I just want to separate application level XEP from transport level.
  447. Zash wouldn't it only notice that if they get bounced?
  448. Yagiza Transport establishes connection and application utilizes it.
  449. Zash UDP is connection-less tho
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  454. Yagiza Zash, yes
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  457. Yagiza Zash, but transport level implies some kind of connection, and it doesn't matter what on lower level goes on.
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  460. jonasw Yagiza, no, it doesn’t
  461. jonasw UDP is transport level, UDP does not imply any type of connection
  462. jonasw if the application requires reliability of any sort, it needs to either use TCP or do something by itself on top of UDP
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  466. Yagiza jonasw, UDP is not a fully transport level. It's somewhat between transport and network level.
  467. Ge0rG ISO/OSI or IETF levels? 😁
  468. Yagiza Ge0rG, at least OSI (^_^)
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  519. Dave Cridland Gosh, I wish OSI levels would finally die.
  520. MattJ Didn't they? :)
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  522. Dave Cridland Sometime in the '80's, everywhere other than Isode, I thought.
  523. SamWhited And at all universities
  524. Dave Cridland True. The concept of layers is quite useful, but the notion of trying to peg UDP's "layer" as something other than "UDP" isn't helpful.
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  527. Ge0rG What about the concept of 0198 being the Session layer and 6120 the Presentation layer? Those who don't understand history are bound to repeat it?
  528. Dave Cridland 6121 is the Application Layer? What's TLS?
  529. Dave Cridland I thought the Session layer included authentication, so I'm not sure 198 counts there. But I never paid much attention to it really.
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  531. Ge0rG I'm not saying it's a perfect match. Actually, it's a set of horrible hacks created to mimic those layers, rather imperfectly
  532. Ge0rG TLS doesn't fit into the OSI model at all. You can't have Lawful Interception on top of it.
  533. Ge0rG And I'd count 6121 into Presentation as well.
  534. Dave Cridland I think our layers are now 1*(Physical, IP, Transport) [TLS] Application [SASL / 1*XEP]
  535. Dave Cridland Hmmm. Maybe the optional TLS layer is in the low-level repeating stack (for VPNs).
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  538. Ge0rG I'm not sure about your notation.
  539. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, ABNF just 'cos.
  540. Ge0rG Or maybe it's just too late to do meaningful work today.
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  565. lovetox In Gajim we have issues with Cisco Servers, it seems Gajim gets often disconnected with resource conflict error
  566. lovetox after that Gajim changes resource, but gets disconnected soon again
  567. lovetox does anyone know whats up with this?
  568. lovetox Is there a Cisco support channel for the xmpp server stuff?
  569. lovetox has anyone connections to some devs that working on this thing?
  570. Ge0rG I can't imagine that. Unless you are a paying customer.
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  573. lovetox ok in theory what are reasons by the standard for resource conflict
  574. lovetox i know the rfc describes that its allowed to not let a resource connect 2 times
  575. Ge0rG when another client is logged in (or just logs in) with the same resource.
  576. lovetox then they have to issue that error
  577. Ge0rG typically, when a second client connects with that resource, one of them gets killed.
  578. lovetox ok defince second client
  579. Ge0rG sane servers kill the old one, because they assume that it's the same client, coming back from a network change
  580. lovetox if i disconnect because of wlan
  581. lovetox and reconnect without smacks
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  583. lovetox am i considerd a second client?
  584. Ge0rG the server can't know if it's the same client or not, except *maybe* based on the resource you want to bind
  585. Ge0rG some developers say the server should just assign you a new random resource and have the zombie stay online
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  587. lovetox ok so its definitly about the resource
  588. lovetox there is no other reason where this would be issued
  589. Ge0rG if it's a resource conflict, I'd assume that
  590. Zash Hand out new resource, ping the old, ???, profit!
  591. Ge0rG Is it https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#streams-error-conditions-conflict
  592. Zash dwd said somesuch at some point iirc
  593. lovetox User says: "The dialog starts to appear within a minute to a few minutes after connection is established. "
  594. Ge0rG Zash: in theory I might agree, but in practice we haven't sorted out the MAM/Carbons mess and messages will get lost and/or bounced. Maybe with a significant delay.
  595. lovetox which makes no sense
  596. lovetox there is no second client involved
  597. lovetox why would it let me connect and issue that after a minute
  598. Ge0rG Great question.
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  600. MattJ lovetox, does Gajim still support the RFC 3921 session iq?
  601. MattJ Old ejabberds used to have a similar behaviour if you didn't use that
  602. MattJ Random shot in the dark
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  606. lovetox hm no thats not it, user just confirmed it was the same with gajim 0.16, so this was like this forever, just that gajim would automatically switch resource without user telling, so they might not noticed it
  607. lovetox so i might solve this again like that
  608. lovetox and just switch resource
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  699. daniel Zash: will your tombstoning in prosody support the alternate jid?
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  702. lovetox i think so daniel, the stanzas i saw included a alternate jid
  703. Zash daniel: yes, it saves the alternate jid from the destruction command and now includes it with the <gone> error
  704. daniel wait there is a gone error now?
  705. daniel i thought you wanted to do unavailable with destroy
  706. daniel Zash, can you give me an example of the stanza you want to implement?
  707. Zash Hm?
  708. Zash daniel: I changed it to a normal error reply
  709. MattJ Clients didn't like the unavailable, and flow pointed out on the list that error made more sense (which I agree with)
  710. daniel can you give me an example of that presence?
  711. Zash and jonasw
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  713. Zash <presence from='room@muc.host/nick' type='error' id='1'><error type='cancel'><gone xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>xmpp:long-long-time-ago@far-far-away.galaxy.invalid?join</gone><text xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>Nuke it from orbit, it&apos;s the only way to be sure!</text></error></presence>
  714. Zash daniel: that ^ in reply to a join stanza
  715. daniel ok. thanks
  716. Zash MattJ: Our error reply code doesn't make it easy to attach text in <gone> :/
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  718. MattJ lovetox, Holger: looks like that change was not publicly discussed as far as I can see
  719. MattJ So we'll probably never know
  720. Zash *THE* change
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  722. Holger Seems it was applied by Ian Paterson who's long gone I guess ...
  723. lovetox then its time we bring it back :)
  724. Holger At least he probably won't stop you from doing that :-)
  725. MattJ Yeah, pretty sure he just disappeared
  726. MattJ He was quite active and authored a number of XEPs
  727. Zash Context?
  728. MattJ Oh!
  729. MattJ Wrong MUC
  730. MattJ jdev@
  731. daniel We really need more mucs
  732. Zash MORE
  733. MattJ With the same 20 people in all of them :)
  734. Holger Hah, I didn't notice either.
  735. ta plus the double amount of popcron chewing spectators
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  737. Zash Until one day, The Great Merge
  738. MattJ Yeah. One big discussion venue. Twitter?
  739. Zash With hash tags instead of rooms
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  793. Ge0rG Tags are the new groups. Even multi groups
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  796. flow does "THE change" have a commit id?
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  803. MattJ flow, no, I don't think anything from the CVS days is in git
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  805. flow what a pity
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  897. Ge0rG Is there somewhere a backup of the CVS? We could re-root the whole history onto reposurgeon
  898. Zash How many VCSes have we gone through?
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  907. Dave Cridland Gosh. Zoofy. There's a blast from the past - he was on the first Council I got "elected" to. (uncontested of course).
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