Wednesday, July 11, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[10:07:37] <Seve/SouL> Do you guys know if is there any MUC for Monal?
[10:07:47] <Ge0rG> AFAIK no
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[10:08:16] <MattJ> Does Monal support MUC?
[10:08:26] <Seve/SouL> Yes it does, MattJ
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[12:31:34] <Yagiza> One thought about XEP-0177: Jingle Raw UDP Transport Method...
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[12:55:23] <Yagiza> Section 4.4 says, that upon sending/receiving session-accept action, entity should start immediately send media.
[12:56:27] <Yagiza> So, application level XEP's will start doing job before they even sure the connection succeed. Is it a good idea?
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[12:58:42] <Yagiza> Maybe it's better for transport XEP start sending something meaningless, independent from application level XEP, like 1 datagram of '\0' byte 10 times per second.
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[12:59:58] <Yagiza> And once it receives a datagram, stop sending it and notify application, that connection succeed, to let it send real media.
[13:00:00] <flow> How do you know for sure that a single null byte is meaningless?
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[13:00:41] <flow> And to answer your first question: I don't see a problem doing what the XEP demands, but maybe I miss something?
[13:00:43] <jonasw> Yagiza, it doesn’t matter
[13:00:51] <jonasw> Yagiza, UDP is lossy anyways, and the media layer needs to be able to cope with loss
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[13:02:14] <Yagiza> flow, I'm not sure. But at least it consumes less traffic and we may be sure that application won't start sending anything useful before connection succeed. And it will make transport level XEP really independent from application level XEPs.
[13:02:48] <flow> jonasw, I think Yagiza possibly had error cases like "could not connect to remote host" in mind
[13:03:15] <flow> But even those could be dedected after sending the data over the UDP stream
[13:03:24] <jonasw> flow, yupp, exactly
[13:03:32] <jonasw> and if everything is fine, it speeds up sending of media
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[13:03:37] <flow> Yagiza, I still don't see the problem
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[13:04:09] <flow> Yagiza, also UDP is stateless, there is no connection succeeded in TCP style
[13:04:34] <jonasw> and inventing your own handshake on top of UDP is...meh
[13:04:56] <flow> your network stack will eventually notify you if it became aware that the UDP packets don't arrive at the destination
[13:05:13] <flow> but they could also simply go down into a black hole
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[13:05:29] <Yagiza> Yes. Receiving data is the sign, that connection succeed. So, I just want to separate application level XEP from transport level.
[13:05:32] <Zash> wouldn't it only notice that if they get bounced?
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[13:06:42] <Yagiza> Transport establishes connection and application utilizes it.
[13:07:20] <Zash> UDP is connection-less tho
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[13:09:31] <Yagiza> Zash, yes
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[13:10:53] <Yagiza> Zash, but transport level implies some kind of connection, and it doesn't matter what on lower level goes on.
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[13:16:31] <jonasw> Yagiza, no, it doesn’t
[13:16:38] <jonasw> UDP is transport level, UDP does not imply any type of connection
[13:16:49] <jonasw> if the application requires reliability of any sort, it needs to either use TCP or do something by itself on top of UDP
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[13:17:47] <Yagiza> jonasw, UDP is not a fully transport level. It's somewhat between transport and network level.
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[13:18:38] <Ge0rG> ISO/OSI or IETF levels? 😁
[13:19:12] <Yagiza> Ge0rG, at least OSI (^_^)
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[15:16:36] <Dave Cridland> Gosh, I wish OSI levels would finally die.
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[15:21:25] <MattJ> Didn't they? :)
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[15:22:44] <Dave Cridland> Sometime in the '80's, everywhere other than Isode, I thought.
[15:23:09] <SamWhited> And at all universities
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[15:23:50] <Dave Cridland> True. The concept of layers is quite useful, but the notion of trying to peg UDP's "layer" as something other than "UDP" isn't helpful.
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[15:26:23] <Ge0rG> What about the concept of 0198 being the Session layer and 6120 the Presentation layer? Those who don't understand history are bound to repeat it?
[15:27:29] <Dave Cridland> 6121 is the Application Layer? What's TLS?
[15:28:12] <Dave Cridland> I thought the Session layer included authentication, so I'm not sure 198 counts there. But I never paid much attention to it really.
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[15:31:08] <Ge0rG> I'm not saying it's a perfect match. Actually, it's a set of horrible hacks created to mimic those layers, rather imperfectly
[15:32:02] <Ge0rG> TLS doesn't fit into the OSI model at all. You can't have Lawful Interception on top of it.
[15:33:05] <Ge0rG> And I'd count 6121 into Presentation as well.
[15:34:43] <Dave Cridland> I think our layers are now 1*(Physical, IP, Transport) [TLS] Application [SASL / 1*XEP]
[15:35:14] <Dave Cridland> Hmmm. Maybe the optional TLS layer is in the low-level repeating stack (for VPNs).
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[15:38:34] <Ge0rG> I'm not sure about your notation.
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[15:38:57] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, ABNF just 'cos.
[15:39:34] <Ge0rG> Or maybe it's just too late to do meaningful work today.
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[16:09:05] <lovetox> In Gajim we have issues with Cisco Servers, it seems Gajim gets often disconnected with resource conflict error
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[16:09:21] <lovetox> after that Gajim changes resource, but gets disconnected soon again
[16:09:29] <lovetox> does anyone know whats up with this?
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[16:10:18] <lovetox> Is there a Cisco support channel for the xmpp server stuff?
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[16:10:29] <lovetox> has anyone connections to some devs that working on this thing?
[16:10:31] <Ge0rG> I can't imagine that. Unless you are a paying customer.
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[16:14:21] <lovetox> ok in theory what are reasons by the standard for resource conflict
[16:14:47] <lovetox> i know the rfc describes that its allowed to not let a resource connect 2 times
[16:14:50] <Ge0rG> when another client is logged in (or just logs in) with the same resource.
[16:14:52] <lovetox> then they have to issue that error
[16:15:09] <Ge0rG> typically, when a second client connects with that resource, one of them gets killed.
[16:15:26] <lovetox> ok defince second client
[16:15:27] <Ge0rG> sane servers kill the old one, because they assume that it's the same client, coming back from a network change
[16:15:38] <lovetox> if i disconnect because of wlan
[16:15:43] <lovetox> and reconnect without smacks
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[16:15:51] <lovetox> am i considerd a second client?
[16:16:02] <Ge0rG> the server can't know if it's the same client or not, except *maybe* based on the resource you want to bind
[16:16:36] <Ge0rG> some developers say the server should just assign you a new random resource and have the zombie stay online
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[16:17:30] <lovetox> ok so its definitly about the resource
[16:17:39] <lovetox> there is no other reason where this would be issued
[16:17:43] <Ge0rG> if it's a resource conflict, I'd assume that
[16:18:09] <Zash> Hand out new resource, ping the old, ???, profit!
[16:18:18] <Ge0rG> Is it https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#streams-error-conditions-conflict
[16:18:35] <Zash> dwd said somesuch at some point iirc
[16:19:18] <lovetox> User says: "The dialog starts to appear within a minute to a few minutes after connection is established. "
[16:19:18] <Ge0rG> Zash: in theory I might agree, but in practice we haven't sorted out the MAM/Carbons mess and messages will get lost and/or bounced. Maybe with a significant delay.
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[16:19:22] <lovetox> which makes no sense
[16:19:27] <lovetox> there is no second client involved
[16:19:35] <lovetox> why would it let me connect and issue that after a minute
[16:19:55] <Ge0rG> Great question.
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[16:21:17] <MattJ> lovetox, does Gajim still support the RFC 3921 session iq?
[16:21:34] <MattJ> Old ejabberds used to have a similar behaviour if you didn't use that
[16:21:40] <MattJ> Random shot in the dark
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[16:22:45] <lovetox> hm no thats not it, user just confirmed it was the same with gajim 0.16, so this was like this forever, just that gajim would automatically switch resource without user telling, so they might not noticed it
[16:23:08] <lovetox> so i might solve this again like that
[16:23:17] <lovetox> and just switch resource
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[18:37:52] <daniel> Zash: will your tombstoning in prosody support the alternate jid?
[18:38:31] <lovetox> i think so daniel, the stanzas i saw included a alternate jid
[18:39:32] <Zash> daniel: yes, it saves the alternate jid from the destruction command and now includes it with the <gone> error
[18:40:20] <daniel> wait there is a gone error now?
[18:40:34] <daniel> i thought you wanted to do unavailable with destroy
[18:42:21] <daniel> Zash, can you give me an example of the stanza you want to implement?
[18:42:28] <Zash> Hm?
[18:42:42] <Zash> daniel: I changed it to a normal error reply
[18:43:12] <MattJ> Clients didn't like the unavailable, and flow pointed out on the list that error made more sense (which I agree with)
[18:43:22] <daniel> can you give me an example of that presence?
[18:43:39] <Zash> and jonasw
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[18:46:11] <Zash> <presence from='room@muc.host/nick' type='error' id='1'><error type='cancel'><gone xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>xmpp:long-long-time-ago@far-far-away.galaxy.invalid?join</gone><text xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!</text></error></presence>
[18:46:27] <Zash> daniel: that ^ in reply to a join stanza
[18:47:27] <daniel> ok. thanks
[18:48:00] <Zash> MattJ: Our error reply code doesn't make it easy to attach text in <gone> :/
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[18:50:34] <MattJ> lovetox, Holger: looks like that change was not publicly discussed as far as I can see
[18:50:47] <MattJ> So we'll probably never know
[18:50:53] <Zash> *THE* change
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[18:53:16] <Holger> Seems it was applied by Ian Paterson who's long gone I guess ...
[18:54:22] <lovetox> then its time we bring it back :)
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[18:54:59] <Holger> At least he probably won't stop you from doing that :-)
[18:56:39] <MattJ> Yeah, pretty sure he just disappeared
[18:56:54] <MattJ> He was quite active and authored a number of XEPs
[18:57:09] <Zash> Context?
[18:57:30] <MattJ> Oh!
[18:57:32] <MattJ> Wrong MUC
[18:57:35] <MattJ> jdev@
[18:58:07] <daniel> We really need more mucs
[18:58:13] <Zash> MORE
[18:58:44] <MattJ> With the same 20 people in all of them :)
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[19:01:18] <Holger> Hah, I didn't notice either.
[19:02:36] <ta> plus the double amount of popcron chewing spectators
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[19:05:36] <Zash> Until one day, The Great Merge
[19:06:01] <MattJ> Yeah. One big discussion venue. Twitter?
[19:06:03] <Zash> With hash tags instead of rooms
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[20:43:44] <Ge0rG> Tags are the new groups. Even multi groups
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[20:45:54] <flow> does "THE change" have a commit id?
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[20:51:00] <MattJ> flow, no, I don't think anything from the CVS days is in git
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[20:52:22] <flow> what a pity
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[22:09:45] <Ge0rG> Is there somewhere a backup of the CVS? We could re-root the whole history onto reposurgeon
[22:10:18] <Zash> How many VCSes have we gone through?
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[22:36:39] <Dave Cridland> Gosh. Zoofy. There's a blast from the past - he was on the first Council I got "elected" to. (uncontested of course).
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