Tuesday, July 31, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[05:57:43] <jonasw> mind, even CLIENT: <foo/>
SERVER:<bar/> can easily be parsed as XML
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[07:57:07] <flow> yeah, but I do believe we should discourage that and encourge one <example/> per stream element or stream element group
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[07:58:41] <Kev> I'm not entirely sure about that, I think having a single logical example in a single example block makes reading easier sometimes.
[08:01:53] <Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
[08:02:36] <jonasw> +1 Kev, Ge0rG
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[08:03:03] <jonasw> https://slack.engineering/reducing-slacks-memory-footprint-4480fec7e8eb
[08:03:09] <jonasw> it has a nice infographic on how slack handles notifications
[08:03:21] <Kev> If we care about an example being valid XML without annotation (and I'm not sure that we do, but maybe), <!-- Client --> <!-- Server --> work.
[08:03:25] <jonasw> <https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/0*PV_09olld6K1l8jQ.> for those who don’t like javascript (yes, the dot is part of the URL)
[08:03:28] <Ge0rG> And if we can get the (whatever component does the styling) to special-color "client:" and "server:" at the highest level, it'd be great.
[08:03:39] <jonasw> Kev, the text in front of the elements is valid XML, too ;-)
[08:03:53] <Kev> Well, yes, that's true.
[08:03:56] <Ge0rG> jonasw: are you saying that any text is valid XML?
[08:04:03] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no
[08:04:03] <Kev> But only if you wrap it all.
[08:04:10] <jonasw> Kev, you have to do that anyways when you have multiple elements
[08:04:11] <intosi> Kev: valid XML, sure. Valid XMPP, no :)
[08:04:16] <Ge0rG> phew. I was frightened for a moment.
[08:04:17] <Kev> jonasw: Yes, true.
[08:04:19] <jonasw> intosi, comments wouldn’t be valid XMPP either
[08:04:34] <Kev> intosi: Sure, but ... I don't think we're going to validate XMPP in the examples.
[08:04:51] <jonasw> not that strictly at least. I do have a prototype of a thing which validates the examples against the respective XML schemas
[08:05:06] <Ge0rG> Kev: but I was just going to copy-paste all XEP examples into my client's XML console!
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[08:07:59] <Kev> Ge0rG: I wouldn't try to stop you :)
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[08:10:37] <Kev> jonasw: That Slack article is very much the direction I've been pushing with XMPP, too.
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[08:10:49] <Kev> Having servers know about unread counts and understand notifications.
[08:10:51] <Ge0rG> Let's make XMPP a Slack clone!
[08:11:06] <Ge0rG> Kev: but the meta data! It's getting even more! And worse!
[08:11:25] <Kev> Ge0rG: Or, let's use good ideas even if other people have them too (after us, in this case).
[08:11:37] *Ge0rG is now going to remodel the yaxim account creation flow into entering a display name and auto-slugifying that into a JID
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[08:14:40] <flow> > Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
[08:15:11] <flow> Not sure, the examples in RFC 6120 § 9 a very readable without using one big example block
[08:15:11] <Ge0rG> flow: btw... did you want to offer me your help in bringing smack4 into yaxim, again? :)
[08:15:29] <flow> Ge0rG, No, I didn't want to offer my help, I did offer my help
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[08:16:21] <flow> and that offer still stands
[08:16:53] <Ge0rG> flow: the markup in https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#examples is rather minimal, the one in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html#activation is rather distracting imho
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[08:17:43] <flow> Ge0rG, yes, but that is a layout issue, maybe we need to invent an additinal <example/> thingy for sequences
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[08:21:06] <edhelas> > This application can consume between ~130MB (p10) and ~960MB (p99) of memory depending on team activity and UI state.
[08:21:07] <edhelas> damn
[08:22:26] <flow> my point is that the thing that example encloses should be just XMPP XML, and not surrounding annotations. Using XML comments for annotations doesn't appeal to me too, because it may give the impression that XMPP allows them
[08:22:50] <jonasw> hm
[08:24:13] <flow> IIRC Link Mauve (?) worked on validating examples with the provided schema. I'd really like to see that happen, as it helps finding issues in the examples *and* the schema
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[08:25:07] <jonasw> we can do that already
[08:25:11] <jonasw> source: I have code which does it
[08:25:14] <flow> and one precondition would probably be that the, possibly new to be created, <examples-foo/> thing is as pure as possible
[08:25:37] <flow> jonasw, is it part of your xeplint?
[08:25:39] <jonasw> yes
[08:25:43] <jonasw> or at least of an earlier version
[08:25:47] <jonasw> I think the current one doesn’t do it yet
[08:26:01] <flow> that's great, how many false negatives to you get?
[08:26:14] <jonasw> the issue is that many included schemas aren’t available
[08:26:19] <jonasw> so validation breaks very easily
[08:26:27] <flow> "aren't available"?
[08:26:32] <jonasw> 404
[08:26:42] <flow> are those schemas not included in the XEP?
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[08:27:33] <jonasw> the ones defined by the XEP are, but sometimes they refer to other XEP’s schemas
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[08:34:30] <flow> jonasw, ahh, but then it's not really a 404 if the other XEP is availble, isn't it? :)
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[08:34:47] <jonasw> flow, it is, because the schema is included via an HTTP url
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[08:35:15] <jonasw> guessing from which XEP the included schema originates is impossible without scanning over all XEPs
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[08:43:59] <MattJ> Kev, and do you have a proposol on how to get anything nearly as complex as that graph standardized and configurable?
[08:44:22] <Kev> Not yet. My first interest is solving the unread problem, and then moving on to notifications.
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[08:46:59] <Kev> FWIW, a lot of it revolves around attaching references to messages, I think.
[08:47:30] <Kev> I think if we craft references sensibly, we can at least make mentions and things easier for a server to process.
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[08:48:13] <jonasw> Kev, is there any hope that my feedback gets incorporated into References?
[08:48:38] <Kev> I've not touched References in a while, sorry. If you gave feedback and I've not addressed it, it should still be in my XSF TODO folder.
[08:48:55] <Kev> Edwin's got the lead of References updates at the moment.
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[08:49:20] <jonasw> 2018-03-12 is the date of my email, if that helps
[08:49:28] <Kev> Although I keep giving him other stuff to do :)
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[08:57:49] <MattJ> Is the "unread problem" blocking bind2?
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[08:59:07] <Kev> No, I don't think so.
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[14:44:29] <Ge0rG> do we have an agenda?
[14:44:41] <Ge0rG> I'd like to add a proto XEP
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[14:56:16] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, We do; I've just not quite sent it yet. What's the ProtoXEP you wanted?
[14:56:27] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I need to submit it yet.
[14:56:36] <jonasw> synopsis?
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[14:56:49] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Hurry!
[14:56:51] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, do you have file sharing notifications on your list?
[14:57:04] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, "fsn" and #681.
[14:57:05] <Bunneh> jonasw: XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
[14:57:10] <Ge0rG> > XEP-xxxx: Schrödinger's Chat
> This protocol extension for XEP-0045 Multi User Chat allows clients to check whether they are still joined to a chatroom.
[14:57:23] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, #682
[14:57:23] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
[14:57:25] <Dave Cridland> I love the name.
[14:57:50] <Ge0rG> It's been the name of the XMPP off-topic MUC for a while now.
[14:58:45] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, the vote on #672 is missing from your spreadsheet of doom
[14:58:46] <Bunneh> Dave Cridland: XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> #672
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672
[14:58:52] <jonasw> (you probably know that, but I thought I’d mention it anyways)
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[14:59:30] <Dave Cridland> Ted Sterr actually put the voting stuff into a CSV and sent it to me to paste in. I need to do that (maybe Real Soon Now)
[14:59:43] <jonasw> awesome
[14:59:50] <jonasw> can I subscribe to that?
[15:00:01] <jonasw> would be useful to keep the pull requests clean
[15:00:14] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, It's public; let me dig out the link.
[15:00:48] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit?usp=sharing
[15:01:10] <jonasw> I know your spreadsheet (I have it bookmarked, even), but the CSV service from Ted would be good too :)
[15:01:29] <jonasw> also, was #664 discussed?
[15:01:30] <Bunneh> jonasw: XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload #664
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
[15:01:33] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Oh. I don't think it's a *service* as such...
[15:01:46] <jonasw> oh, it was
[15:01:54] <jonasw> totally missed that all were +1 except for the typo :)
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[15:03:35] <MattJ> jonasw, curl https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/export?format=csv ?
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[15:05:08] <jonasw> MattJ, no, I don’t need CSV specifically. I had the impression that Ted had some updated data which isn’t in that document yet
[15:05:33] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, I'll put that in now. Sadly doesn't cut/paste.
[15:05:53] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, If you want edit rights to the sheet, though, just ask.
[15:06:25] <jonasw> if I were able to follow the council meetings closely enough to do that, I’d be taking minutes and/or not need that sheet at all, unfortunately :(
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[15:13:16] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, How imminent in that ProtoXEP?
[15:13:33] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, How imminent is that ProtoXEP?
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[15:14:56] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: it's 75% ready.
[15:15:12] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: if you put it on the agenda, I'll get it to the editor within the next 2h
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[15:16:58] <jonasw> the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30
[15:17:02] <jonasw> the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30 CEST
[15:17:05] <jonasw> but I’ll do my best
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[15:21:27] <Ge0rG> jonasw: 18:30, okay.
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[15:23:05] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, I can't send the agenda out with a protoxep on it that's not been announced. Don't rush it - we'll do it next week if not this.
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[15:25:24] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: I don't believe into those delays, and I'm going on holiday in three weeks.
[15:25:53] <Dave Cridland> Well, I'll hold off as long as possible.
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[15:26:39] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, what’s your limit for delaying the agenda?
[15:27:05] <Dave Cridland> Well, I (try to) send it out 24 hours in advance, which was 26 minutes ago. :-)
[15:27:31] <Dave Cridland> But in practise, Kev only starts complaining if it's not out by tomorrow morning.
[15:28:09] <Kev> And Kev's the only person who ever complains.
[15:28:18] <Dave Cridland> I didn't say that.
[15:28:26] <Dave Cridland> Hinted, very strongly, but didn't actually say...
[15:29:17] <Kev> Which might, disappointingly, mean Kev's the only person who puts aside time to review the agendums before each meeting.
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[15:30:35] <Ge0rG> I try to take aside the time. I'm just too polite to complain.
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[15:32:57] <Ge0rG> > Copyright: © 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES.
we should fix the year
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[15:33:54] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Easier to fix the copyright statement.
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[15:34:46] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: do we have a process for *that*?
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[15:35:14] <Ge0rG> jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/687
[15:35:23] <jonasw> wee
[15:36:01] <Ge0rG> Rendered version: https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-selfping.html
[15:36:18] <jonasw> build in progress
[15:37:01] <jonasw> Ge0rG, for optimum speed, watch https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xeps/builds/ and tell me when the newest goes green
[15:37:28] <Ge0rG> There is a huge red "Cancel" button.
[15:37:31] <Ge0rG> I. Must. Resist.
[15:37:37] <jonasw> Ge0rG, which won’t do anything unless you’re logged in and have permissions
[15:37:52] <jonasw> funnily enough, the response of the cancel button is exactly the same if you’re logged in or not.
[15:37:58] <jonasw> you need to reload to find out whether it actually cancelled something
[15:38:54] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Where did you see that copyright statement? The one in xep.xsl looks to be 2018.
[15:39:33] <jonasw> Dave Cridland, look at the date of the last commit touching that file ;-)
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[15:39:48] <jonasw> (TL;DR: I patched it just this second)
[15:39:49] <Dave Cridland> Ah, 5 minutes ago...
[15:39:55] <jonasw> (TL;DR: I patched it just five minutes ago)
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[15:42:34] <Ge0rG> > Building
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[16:13:06] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, Still building?
[16:13:12] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: still building.
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[16:13:34] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: Jonas said, it might take 90mins
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[16:13:40] <Zash> Madness
[16:13:59] *Ge0rG is thus polling https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
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[16:15:17] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: ETA is some time between 30 and 55mins from now. You could also wait until tomorrow morning and tell Kev to complain to me about it.
[16:15:37] <Dave Cridland> Well, got the agenda item all written up ready, just got to hit sent when it's done.
[16:16:14] <Ge0rG> That's great preparation.
[16:16:48] <Dave Cridland> For once.
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[16:31:53] <jonasw> Ge0rG, Dave Cridland, check your (standards@) inboxes, the ProtoXEP is now at https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
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[16:34:21] <Dave Cridland> Agenda launched!
[16:35:48] <jonasw> impact in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
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[16:40:17] <Ge0rG> Damn, my mobile email client has reset itself.
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[16:45:13] *SamWhited is looking forward to reading it, but as amusing as the title is probably won't +1 until there's a descriptive title that actually tells me what the XEP does.
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[16:46:53] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: "MUC Self Ping" is way too unexciting
[16:47:20] <SamWhited> Good. I like unexciting.
[16:47:56] <SamWhited> (Schrödinger's Chat is very amusing though; maybe that could be an april fools XEP or something)
[16:47:57] <Zash> MattJ: What was the term you pointed out in the ActivityPub spec?
[16:48:17] <Zash> SamWhited: Boring specs are out
[16:49:04] <Zash> > cool linked data
[16:49:27] <Zash> Cool!
[16:49:55] <MattJ> Standards are slipping
[16:50:45] <Zash> If it doesn't fit in 140 characters then it's too long and complicated!!11
[16:51:54] <Zash> -xep serious
[16:51:54] <Bunneh> Zash: Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-07-22)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0402.html
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[16:53:12] <MattJ> QED
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[16:53:54] <Zash> > I love the name.
-- Dave Cridland
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[16:54:55] <SamWhited> That one tells you what it does in a clear way before making a joke, at least.
[16:55:37] <Ge0rG> So we can settle on "MUC Self Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)"?
[16:56:03] <Ge0rG> I'd rather prefer it to be the other way round
[16:56:25] <Zash> Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
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[16:57:12] <MattJ> This one weird trick...
[16:57:38] <Ge0rG> Zash [18:56]:
> Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
👍
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[17:01:00] <martin> Funn, just a few days ago I exectly implemented self ping in a bot I wrote.
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[17:01:48] <Ge0rG> martin: did you do everything right?
[17:03:12] <martin> Hope so. I send ping to muc participant and check for result IQ with the correct ID. At least it works. Have not yet looked at your proposal in detail.
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[17:08:55] <martin> Ge0rG: uh, your proposal says server reply is type 'get'. I always got 'result' or 'cancel'.
[17:10:02] <martin> I looked at 0199 so I did it this way.
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[17:13:51] <Ge0rG> martin: sorry, copy & paste error in the example
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[17:15:08] <Ge0rG> martin: no, wait. It's not the response, it's the reflection
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[17:16:33] <martin> I see.
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[19:46:32] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:47:14] *** UsL shows as "online"
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[19:57:50] *** rion shows as "online"
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[20:02:37] *** pep. shows as "online"
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[20:16:19] *** UsL shows as "online"
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[20:17:29] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[20:25:20] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:25:22] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:25:49] *** intosi shows as "online"
[20:25:52] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[20:32:09] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[20:35:07] *** anjan shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:35:56] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:36:03] *** Martin has left the room
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[20:40:10] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[20:42:48] *** pep. has left the room
[20:42:52] *** pep. shows as "online"
[20:43:19] *** jubalh has left the room
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[20:43:30] *** karp shows as "xa" and his status message is "Сплю"
[20:44:48] *** Yagiza has left the room
[20:45:07] *** anjan shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:51:26] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[20:57:44] *** Ge0rG shows as "away"
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[20:58:48] *** Alex shows as "online"
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[21:06:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:09:45] *** UsL shows as "online"
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[21:16:17] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[21:18:40] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
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[21:21:22] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:23:25] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:26:40] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[21:28:50] *** MattJ shows as "online"
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[21:38:26] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:40:34] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:40:55] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[21:40:57] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[21:41:32] *** lumi shows as "online"
[21:42:22] *** UsL shows as "online"
[21:43:19] *** 404.city has left the room
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[21:46:40] *** Alex has left the room
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[21:49:36] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
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[21:53:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:54:16] *** lskdjf has left the room
[21:54:16] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:54:39] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[22:01:17] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:01:53] *** rion has left the room
[22:03:07] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:06:50] *** kasper.dement has left the room
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[22:17:54] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:27:18] *** jjrh shows as "online"
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[22:46:57] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:49:39] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:50:38] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[22:57:57] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[22:57:58] *** UsL shows as "online"
[23:10:22] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:10:23] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:10:30] *** pep. has left the room
[23:10:32] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:10:56] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[23:13:40] *** nyco has left the room
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[23:18:56] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[23:19:02] *** lnj has left the room
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[23:30:36] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[23:31:53] *** dos shows as "online"
[23:34:23] *** Guus has joined the room
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[23:42:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:42:21] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:42:23] *** Chobbes has joined the room
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[23:43:02] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:53:48] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:55:24] *** kasper.dement has left the room
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