Wednesday, August 01, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[09:03:12] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[09:36:19] <edhelas> hi everyone
[09:36:34] <Seve/SouL> Greetings!
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[09:36:55] <edhelas> I was wondering it there is a way to quote/reference a pubsub item in a chat message ?
[09:37:46] <edhelas> there's muc#roominfo_pubsub that allows to link Pubsub nodes to a MUC, and I'm planning to display the related pubsub node items in the MUC UI, then you can comment/reference it
[09:37:47] <jonasw> edhelas, the References XEP has a syntax for that I think
[09:37:51] <edhelas> \o/
[09:38:13] <jonasw> ... a syntax which I don’t like, and I haven’t heard back from the authors yet on whether they’re willing to change it
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[15:32:06] <Ge0rG> jdev@conference.jabber.org will respond to pings to a non-existent nickname with not-allowed. Yay.
[15:32:24] <jonasw> this muc is fubar anyways
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[15:32:39] <Ge0rG> It will also respond not-allowed if I'm not joined.
[15:32:46] <jonasw> purrfect
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[15:35:58] <Ge0rG> > this muc is fubar anyways
Which is why I'm testing it.
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[15:39:27] <Ge0rG> jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/688
[15:39:41] <jonasw> I need an "Out of Order -- Overheated" sign
[15:39:57] <jonasw> Ge0rG, no revision block documenting the rename etc.?
[15:40:01] <Zash> Wasn't there a 'hot' in {xep user mood}?
[15:40:03] <Bunneh> Zash: User Mood (Standards Track, Draft, 2018-03-13)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0107.html
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[15:40:58] <jonasw> Ge0rG, another suggestion: I think a safe way to handle nickname-change-vs-ping-races is the following: when receiving a nickname change notification *and* a ping is in-flight, that ping is allowed to fail. issue a new ping.
[15:41:12] <jonasw> due to the stream ordering guarantees, you have to see the nick change notification *before* the error reply
[15:41:46] <jonasw> s/issue a new ping/issue a new ping and ignore the result of the other ping/
[15:41:46] <Ge0rG> jonasw: or do what I did in the PR ;)
[15:42:02] <Ge0rG> consider item-not-found as a valid response
[15:42:08] <jonasw> Ge0rG, but what if you never get a response because just in that moment your s2s interrupts?
[15:42:24] <jonasw> (talking about line 172+)
[15:43:32] <jonasw> my suggestion resolves MSN and own nick changes and it’ll work even with jdev@
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[15:51:24] <Ge0rG> jonasw: your suggestion requires more logic.
[15:51:51] <jonasw> Ge0rG, it’s also fail-safer
[15:52:02] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I can live with yet another rejoin ;)
[15:52:03] <jonasw> maybe put it in as suggestion for clients which want that amount of logic
[15:52:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: PRs welcome
[15:52:49] <jonasw> on a ProtoXEP?
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[15:56:43] <Ge0rG> jonasw: it will stay a ProtoXEP until daniel approves or rejects.
[15:58:42] <jonasw> still, you wanna add your revision block there?
[15:59:10] <Ge0rG> jonasw: do I need to? I only asked for the revision block for the case that the funny name has to leave the title.
[15:59:56] <jonasw> for the sake of record-keeping and e.g. daniel who has to review it later, it makes sense to record it
[16:00:31] <Ge0rG> jonasw: as the Council didn't provide much feedback on the technical details, I'm not sure it will matter to daniel
[16:01:07] <jonasw> put it another way: if you don’t do it, I’ll do it
[16:01:21] <jonasw> but if you do it now, I can merge that now
[16:01:30] <jonasw> if you don’t do it now, I’ll drag it out because it’s too hot for me to think about stuff
[16:02:09] <Kev> Or until Daniel doesn't vote. There's a two week expiry period on voting.
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[16:09:23] <Ge0rG> Kev: that's an option as well. But I don't want to delay changes based on the Council feedback by two weeks because of that.
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[18:03:47] <MattJ> If I'm reading XEP-0060 right, you can't support max_items and simultaneously support unlimited items
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[18:04:53] <MattJ> Hmm, more simply - there is just no way to have an unlimited-item node
[18:05:52] <Zash> Set max_items > 9000
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[18:06:41] <MattJ> Seems like quite a limitation for e.g. microblogging
[18:07:57] <waqas> 640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwjDrZWPuczcAhUBvVkKHXecAi0QFjABegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2011%2F09%2F08%2F640k-enough%2F&usg=AOvVaw1pt8pBSu4B_G2oN6QxGUP0>
[18:08:00] <waqas> 640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwjDrZWPuczcAhUBvVkKHXecAi0QFjABegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2011%2F09%2F08%2F640k-enough%2F&usg=AOvVaw1pt8pBSu4B_G2oN6QxGUP0>
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[18:15:58] <Dave Cridland> Set max_items to be, dynamically, 10k more than the current count.
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[18:18:33] <Dave Cridland> But yeah, you're right. If an implementation supports multiple items, it has to expose max_items.
[18:18:48] <MattJ> So people complained Prosody's PEP only supported a single item
[18:19:00] <MattJ> so how many did they want it to support?
[18:19:43] <MattJ> Let's say OMEMO used an item per device for keys, what would Conversations configure max_items as?
[18:20:30] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Well, Prosody can support unlimited items, or at least, support any value for max_items.
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[18:21:39] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, I don't know without looking if there's an upper limit on max_items because it's a xs:positiveInteger, mind, but I'd expect that to be 2**31 at worst case.
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[18:23:59] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, That said, pre-keys are stored in PEP precisely to obviate the need for server code changes, and given that storing them in "the open" potentially leads to a kind of DoS(ish) attack which weakens the cryptographic properties, it's arguing to stick pre-keys in a specialized server-side service anyway.
[18:24:39] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, But bookmarks 2 uses multiple items, too, for better reasons.
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[18:31:59] <lovetox> Im not sure if im understanding you correctly, but omemo does not store multiple items
[18:32:18] <lovetox> it needs exactly one item per node
[18:32:34] <Zash> It could tho
[18:32:38] <lovetox> but it does not care if its more
[18:32:53] <lovetox> Zash i dont see the value
[18:32:56] <Zash> But it doesn't because it wouldn't work since only one item was guaranteed
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[18:34:36] <lovetox> im not sure what you are suggesting, but i dont see any value in storing anything omemo related in a multiple items node
[18:34:44] <lovetox> bookmarks is completely different use case
[18:34:48] <lovetox> and it makes sense there
[18:35:46] <Zash> individual prekeys could be removed when they are used up for example
[18:36:16] <Zash> and devices could publish their own key without having to make sure to not remove other devices keys
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[18:37:29] <lovetox> tricky, a prekey in a node is not of any value if you dont have the same prekey in storage
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[18:38:00] <lovetox> its more foolproof if you just publish the new prekey list on each removal
[18:38:17] <Zash> I don't actually have any idea how OMEMO works, I'm just guessing
[18:38:31] <lovetox> no you brought up a valid argument
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[18:38:57] <lovetox> one could do it that way, but then you would have to check from time to time, if your db stored prekeys are really the ones that are published
[18:39:24] <lovetox> the second idea, to store device ids per item is more interesting
[18:39:46] <Zash> Altho, it uses ... different nodes now? Or something?
[18:39:56] <Zash> Which in itself is awkward
[18:40:08] <lovetox> you mean the device id?
[18:40:32] <lovetox> its serves a multi purpose, 1. it shows you the way to the public key node
[18:40:45] <MattJ> Sorry, my question was quite unrelated to OMEMO, it was just an example (multiple items have been discussed in the past, and Prosody not supporting that was one of the reasons against it)
[18:40:49] <lovetox> 2. it shows other clients which devices are active devices
[18:40:55] <MattJ> Bookmarks is just as valid
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[18:41:12] <MattJ> And probably a better example
[18:41:20] <Zash> Both specs bend backwards a bit to fit into "there can be only one item per node"
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[18:45:56] <lovetox> MattJ, why do you ask, because you think about a hard max limit for prosody?
[18:46:15] <lovetox> i guess its only natural that a server has something like that
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[18:46:42] <lovetox> i think nobody expects a server to support truly unlimited items
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[18:55:53] <lovetox> Zash i thought about it some more, and how would you chose a prekey? because more then one client can try to use a prekey while you are offline, you are supposed to choose one per random to reduce the chances that 2 c lients pick the same
[18:56:01] <lovetox> so you have to download all items of the node
[18:56:20] <lovetox> this does need 100 times the roundtrips you would need with one node, and needs much more time
[18:56:39] <lovetox> *one item
[18:57:12] <lovetox> If someone would want to improve the prekey use case, a server module is the best way
[18:57:53] <Dave Cridland> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dbf75m-3HG7tssvI0L__99yNCj9mtPt4/view?usp=sharing (In progress)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7Y-5N3E0-swSOqmLHdgr7fyNHa0wjhj/view?usp=sharing (And done)
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[18:59:10] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, FWIW, I'd like to make prekeying a server module, but I'd just wwait until MLS is ready and use that.
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[19:00:10] <lovetox> yes this would take some impl complexity away from clients and additionally would make race conditions impossible
[19:00:48] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, Also means you can't "drain" prekeys, or look for especially weak ones to use, or ...
[19:01:48] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, It *also* means that a server can potentially inject other prekeys into a set, of course. That ought to be detectable, but it can allow for retention policies etc which are important in enterprise/government cases.
[19:01:54] <lovetox> hm really? would not still the client have to create the keys and suppy it to the server?
[19:02:35] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, Yes, but the server can conceal how many are present and loop over the last N instead of discarding them.
[19:03:09] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, Anyone trying to constantly request prekeys to see if this is the case is pretty easy to spot, too.
[19:03:09] <lovetox> hm no that is not allowed in the signal spec
[19:03:24] <lovetox> prekey is to used once only
[19:03:46] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, I know. But the MLS spec isn't Signal, just similar. And prekeys can't be used more than once mostly to make the cryptographic proofs simpler.
[19:04:42] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, The alternative is that if prekeys are exhausted, then you can't exchange messages (encrypted) anymore.
[19:05:17] <Dave Cridland> lovetox, So either that's a DoS waiting to happen, or else unencrypted comms.
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[19:18:28] <MattJ> lovetox [19:47]:
> MattJ, why do you ask, because you think about a hard max limit for prosody?
Yes, we need a limit
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[22:12:00] *** Guus has joined the room
[22:12:30] *** Guus has left the room
[22:12:39] *** Guus has joined the room
[22:13:48] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:13:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:14:18] *** blabla has left the room
[22:24:25] *** pep. has left the room
[22:24:29] *** pep. shows as "online"
[22:26:57] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[22:27:47] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:27:51] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:27:52] *** lnj has left the room
[22:27:59] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:28:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:29:36] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:30:12] *** Zash shows as "away"
[22:30:16] *** Zash shows as "away"
[22:30:23] *** Zash has left the room
[22:32:49] *** jjrh has left the room
[22:33:31] *** dos has left the room
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[22:33:56] *** j.r has joined the room
[22:35:13] *** Guus has left the room
[22:35:14] *** Guus has joined the room
[22:36:37] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[22:40:55] *** j.r has left the room
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[22:41:02] *** waqas has left the room
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[22:50:38] *** dos has left the room
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[22:53:50] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[22:53:58] *** dos has joined the room
[23:00:24] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[23:00:24] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:03:03] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:05:56] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:14:21] *** nyco has left the room
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[23:14:32] *** valo has left the room
[23:15:35] *** jjrh has left the room
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[23:18:42] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:22:39] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:22:47] *** ta has left the room
[23:22:50] *** ta has joined the room
[23:24:33] *** blabla shows as "online"
[23:25:09] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[23:26:03] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:36:10] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:38:41] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:44:59] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:49:06] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:59:29] *** peter shows as "online"