XSF logo XSF Discussion - 2018-08-06


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  516. SamWhited Implementing direct TLS in a library and running into the mixing of SRV records again. We really need to change this, it makes no sense. I'm ignoring it because I don't want to manually try to mix the records (the DNS library handles ordering SRV records for you, but doesn't let you specify two different services because that's not how SRV works)
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  519. SamWhited And if the server operator wants to prefer StartTLS they can always just not set SRV records, so I don't see that it actually provides any benefit.
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  530. SamWhited Also if we mix them and one has a "." record (no such service), what does that even mean? No XMPP server at this address, or no direct TLS at this address? What if one has "." and one has a proper record?
  531. Zash Nonsense is what it means
  532. Zash And headaches
  533. SamWhited Yah, these rules drive me nuts.
  534. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Arnt Gulbrandsen disagrees with "that's now how SRV works".
  535. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Arnt Gulbrandsen disagrees with "that's not how SRV works".
  536. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Also I really hope you meant "selecting" rather than "ordering".
  537. SamWhited The SRV spec agrees; as far as I can tell. At least, I can't find anything that tells you to treat two services as one service and how you handle things like a "no such service" record.
  538. SamWhited What's the difference?
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  541. Dave Cridland SamWhited, The SRV spec says "This is a default, but the application protocol can say whatever it likes". And you can't "order" SRV records, as such. I mean, there's no fixed order of multiple SRV records at the same priority - you could order them but they'd be an unstable order.
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  543. Dave Cridland SamWhited, So yeah, basically you can't use your DNS library's built in SRV selection. But then, you can't with - possibly - any protocol that's formally defined to use SRV now.
  544. SamWhited Seems like we added pointless complexity because other protocols *might* have pointless complexity then.
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  546. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Well, no, we've been following along with other existing protocols. Doesn't mean we can't change it. I'm just looking at RFC 6168 versus RFC 8314 now.
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  548. SamWhited and there's still no indication what '.' means.
  549. SamWhited I'll go look at those
  550. SamWhited when I'm back at my desk if I haven't already
  551. Dave Cridland SamWhited, RFC 6168 covers that, too (and uses mixed priority as we do for IMAPs/IMAP, for instance). RFC 8314 updates that to say clients should always prefer "Implicit TLS".
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  553. Dave Cridland I'd be absolutely fine with updating to match that, by the way.
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  642. Ge0rG What's "Implicit TLS"?
  643. jonasw Ge0rG, non-STARTTLS
  644. Ge0rG Is it the opposite of "Direct TLS" or of "Explicit TLS"?
  645. jonasw others call it Direct TLS
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  647. Ge0rG And what's explicit?
  648. Ge0rG is it explicit to use a TLS port or to use a TLS command?
  649. jonasw Explict is the use of STARTTLS
  650. jonasw are you genuinely interested or trolling?
  651. jonasw cause I’d like to not waste my evening with trolling :)
  652. Ge0rG people are bad at names.
  653. jonasw yes
  654. jonasw we knew that
  655. Ge0rG No, I was genuinly confused what that means. Thanks
  656. jonasw you’re welcome :)
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  697. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, "Implicit TLS" is what RFC 8134 uses: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8314#section-3
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  699. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, I don't *love* the term. But it's too late to change the RFC, and it's no worse than any other term really.
  700. Zash It's accurate
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  702. Ge0rG I'm not sure it is, but I'm a confused non native speaker
  703. Ge0rG I like Direct TLS vs STARTTLS as terms
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  707. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Sure. But if the rest of the internet is using a different term, I'm fine with changing.
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  709. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: if by "the rest of the internet" you mean a bunch of nerds pretty much similar to us, I'm not sure I agree.
  710. Zash Let's call it wannabe-ipsec
  711. jonasw :D
  712. pep. Zash, nooo
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  714. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Well, I mean the IETF, or at least the Internet Mail folks, who are as similar to us as is possible to be (indeed, half of them have been involved in XMPP stuff at the IETF).
  715. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: maybe they just didn't spend any time on the term, and whatever wasn't absolutely idiotic did stick?
  716. kasper.dement has joined
  717. jonasw do you seriously believe that such a thing wasn’t bike-shedded?
  718. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Sure. But that's basically what we did.
  719. jonasw it’s terminology after all
  720. Dave Cridland jonasw, I think it's nomenclature, actually.
  721. Dave Cridland tries to look innocent.
  722. jonasw well played
  723. Zash Psst, http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907
  724. Ge0rG jonasw [22:03]: > do you seriously believe that such a thing wasn’t bike-shedded? Yes. Otherwise they'd have come up with a better term.
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  726. Zash Ge0rG: Terminology by committee!
  727. jonasw I don’t find it extremely bad
  728. Ge0rG Zash: that directly brings back my question of Nickname vs Name vs Screen name.
  729. jonasw screen name is good in en
  730. Ge0rG jonasw: I do.
  731. jonasw but I don’t think it translates well in any language I know
  732. Ge0rG "Anzeigename" is moderately cumbersome
  733. jonasw also I’m not sure it would be clear to the typical user what this even is
  734. jonasw (it’s not more cumbersome than "Screen name", although that’s probably hard to judge)
  735. jonasw (I find it not more cumbersome than "Screen name", although that’s probably hard to judge)
  736. Zash What do other things call it?
  737. Ge0rG Yeah, maybe "screen name" is bad as well
  738. jonasw probably just "Name"
  739. Ge0rG Still better than Implicit TLS
  740. Ge0rG (it's not implicit because you do a TLS handshake)
  741. jonasw but it’s implicit regarding the lower layers
  742. jonasw which isn’t the case with STARTTLS
  743. jonasw but yeah, Direct TLS is less ambiguous in that regard
  744. Zash START THY TLS! is pretty explicit
  745. jonasw what just happened: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/IrUXvlA_MXTM4ecUHM4ve-TDSXUcHRHBN8_rU85-P_k.png
  746. Zash jonasw: hm?
  747. Lance has joined
  748. Zash jonasw: Why there's a room with >300 participants out of a sudden?
  749. jonasw more than one room with >200 at least
  750. jonasw and kuketz-blog and conversations being kicked off the 1st/2nd position in the listing, which they’ve had for weeks now
  751. Zash jonasw: Auto-injected auto-join bookmarks, if my german comprehenion is sufficiently accurate
  752. jonasw ah, neat
  753. Zash jonasw: for all new(?) registrants
  754. jonasw (why tho)
  755. jonasw ah
  756. jonasw for new ones it might make sense
  757. jonasw hmm
  758. jonasw jeopardises the listing a bit, but let’s see how things play out
  759. Zash Someone said because users complained about lack of notice about some downtime
  760. jonasw m(
  761. Zash It was only on Twitter or somesuch
  762. jonasw isn’t there mod_announce for that?
  763. Zash Myeah
  764. jonasw you can even send a type="headline" which will steal your focus if you’re using pidgin
  765. jonasw anyways, heading to bed now, see ya folks
  766. Ge0rG I'm not sure how it helps to announce downtime in a MUC
  767. Zash Ge0rG: If all your users are in it...
  768. MattJ Works for offline users without MAM
  769. MattJ (while the server is up, of course)
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  771. Ge0rG Zash: if your server is down. Also Schrödinger's Chat
  772. Zash Ge0rG: I understood this as notice about future planned downtime
  773. Zash *before* the actual downtime
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