Friday, August 10, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:09] <Syndace> If there is no device list there is literally no way to send encrypted messages. I have no idea what conversations even sends in that case. A message only with the "your client does not support omemo" message?

It should not ask to disable, but rather simply tell the user that encryption is impossible and switch to plaintext.
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[00:00:54] <Syndace> No buttons that helpless users have to decide between
[00:01:21] <Syndace> as someone said earlier, if you're scared and don't understand something, you probably click "cancel"
[00:01:25] <moparisthebest> Syndace: it won't let you send anything, that's the correct behavior
[00:01:46] <Syndace> Oh, that dialogue reappears until you click disable?
[00:01:47] <moparisthebest> We have years of evidence that falling back to unencrypted is bad
[00:02:12] <moparisthebest> ISPs strip STARTLS all the time for example
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[00:02:30] <Syndace> not talking about silent fallback
[00:02:39] <moparisthebest> Yep @ dialog reappearing
[00:03:10] <Syndace> Okay, that makes things a bit better.
[00:05:10] <Syndace> But it's not really "falling back" to plaintext if there never was an encrypted chat in the first place
[00:05:40] <Syndace> I think "force encryption" should be an opt-in setting
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[00:09:49] <moparisthebest> It's opt out now in conversations
[00:09:59] <moparisthebest> I think that's the correct choice
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[00:12:59] <Syndace> I would agree if the message was a bit friendlier for non-it people
[00:14:47] <Syndace> A message that does not make you click cancel because you don't understand what's going on
[00:15:23] <Syndace> But it's okay I guess, my initial rage was a bit too much
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[05:33:46] <goffi> Hi. I don't think OMEMO by default is a good choice as long as 1) there is no full stanza encryption and 2) it's not at least in draft. But the situation is difficult, for a messenger where one of the main goal is security, the choice of Conversation is understandable.
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[06:47:45] <edhelas> https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-progress-report-17/
[06:48:06] <edhelas> so looks like the futur Librem5 phone will have XMPP shipped in, using the libpurple library
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[06:48:37] <Seve> I was quite surprised, as they said they were going to use Matrix. Or maybe both come with it?
[06:49:46] <edhelas> looks like both
[06:50:34] <edhelas> but with libpurple I don't expect to have a modern XMPP experience as well…
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[07:27:47] <Ge0rG> maybe somebody should sacrifice themselves and bring libpurple to a reasonable level?
[07:28:12] <Zash> Crowdsource some monies for it?
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[07:29:23] <MattJ> I'm starting to think that's the only answer (fixing Pidgin/libpurple)
[07:29:56] <Zash> I've been semi-seriously thinking that a while myself.
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[07:30:42] <Ge0rG> Maybe that's a job for a student who's using Pidgin anyway already?
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[07:30:51] *Ge0rG 's looking at jonasw
[07:31:04] <jonasw> Ge0rG, good thing I’m not a student anymore
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[07:31:32] <MattJ> Lucky escape
[07:31:49] <Ge0rG> jonasw: being a student doesn't magically stop with a master's degree. You are still tainted by the attitude.
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[07:32:08] <jonasw> speaking of attitude: that’s just, like, your opinion, man
[07:32:15] <Zash> > who's using Pidgin
Did you stop?
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[07:32:42] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I've got some strong opinions, so you better not question them :P
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[09:22:02] <Seve> I'm guessing they did research before using libpurple.
What does libpurple offer that other libraries don't?
[09:22:50] <Zash> Support for every protocol under the sun.
[09:22:57] <Zash> More cruft than you can shake a stick at.
[09:23:09] <Zash> Dubious security track record
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[17:54:09] *** lnj_ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
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[17:56:25] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[17:56:26] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[17:56:29] *** Alex shows as "online"
[17:58:54] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
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[18:02:52] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:04:10] *** lnj_ shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[18:04:42] *** ThibG has left the room
[18:04:44] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:04:45] *** ThibG has joined the room
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[18:06:29] *** Alex shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
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[18:10:08] *** UsL shows as "online"
[18:10:21] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:12:35] *** Yagiza has left the room
[18:13:21] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:14:13] *** karp has left the room
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[18:20:41] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[18:21:00] *** labdsf has left the room
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[18:22:38] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[18:23:21] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:23:48] *** lumi shows as "online"
[18:24:40] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:24:42] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:26:12] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:26:29] *** Alex shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto-Status (untätig)"
[18:27:11] *** karp has left the room
[18:28:16] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
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[18:28:22] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:28:25] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:28:32] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[18:28:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:29:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:29:21] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:31:23] *** blabla has joined the room
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[18:36:13] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[18:36:47] *** karp shows as "away" and his status message is "..."
[18:37:18] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[18:37:19] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:37:25] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:38:21] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[18:39:40] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:40:37] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[18:44:41] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[18:46:02] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:48:09] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[18:48:46] *** Valerian has joined the room
[18:49:31] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[18:50:30] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:50:50] *** intosi shows as "online"
[18:51:02] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[18:52:03] *** Valerian has left the room
[18:52:04] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[18:54:11] *** lnj_ shows as "online"
[18:55:23] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[18:55:36] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[18:57:38] *** Guus has left the room
[18:57:46] *** Guus shows as "online"
[18:59:44] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[18:59:57] *** lnj_ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:00:55] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:01:31] *** lnj_ shows as "online"
[19:02:07] *** lorddavidiii shows as "online"
[19:02:49] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[19:03:56] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:04:32] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:04:45] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[19:06:43] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:07:43] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[19:08:19] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[19:09:37] *** lnj_ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:10:07] *** lnj_ shows as "online"
[19:10:09] *** waqas has joined the room
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[19:14:10] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
[19:14:35] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[19:16:44] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[19:17:18] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:17:37] *** lnj_ has left the room
[19:19:35] *** karp has left the room
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[19:25:07] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:26:41] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:28:06] *** Martin has left the room
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[19:33:01] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:35:48] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
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[19:52:25] *** tux shows as "online"
[19:55:35] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:55:35] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:01:49] *** UsL shows as "online"
[20:03:50] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:04:20] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:04:29] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:05:02] *** andrey.g has left the room
[20:05:16] *** Valerian has left the room
[20:05:17] *** Valerian has joined the room
[20:07:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:07:41] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:08:26] *** karp has left the room
[20:08:27] *** karp has joined the room
[20:10:47] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:12:33] *** karp has left the room
[20:12:33] *** karp has joined the room
[20:14:00] *** andrey.g has joined the room
[20:14:14] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:14:18] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:14:26] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:14:34] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:14:35] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[20:14:42] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[20:17:35] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[20:18:50] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[20:20:42] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:22:40] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:23:27] *** Tobias has left the room
[20:23:29] *** Tobias has joined the room
[20:23:51] *** Valerian has left the room
[20:24:00] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:24:09] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:24:31] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[20:25:15] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:25:16] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:26:50] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[20:28:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:28:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:29:02] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:30:30] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:30:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:30:47] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:31:03] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[20:31:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[20:31:25] *** karp has left the room
[20:31:25] *** karp has joined the room
[20:33:20] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[20:34:18] *** lskdjf has left the room
[20:35:42] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:37:14] *** karp has left the room
[20:37:14] *** karp has joined the room
[20:37:35] *** dos shows as "xa" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[20:38:39] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[20:38:41] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[20:40:08] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[20:41:26] *** alacer has left the room
[20:42:16] *** Zash shows as "away"
[20:42:52] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:43:39] *** daniel has left the room
[20:45:02] *** j.r has joined the room
[20:46:04] *** karp has left the room
[20:46:04] *** karp has joined the room
[20:46:04] *** karp shows as "away" and his status message is "..."
[20:51:01] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:51:23] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[20:55:49] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[20:55:52] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[20:56:22] *** daniel has joined the room
[20:56:52] *** Zash has left the room
[20:59:26] *** UsL shows as "online"
[21:00:34] *** goffi has left the room
[21:01:56] *** daniel has left the room
[21:05:34] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:13:38] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:14:25] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[21:15:29] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:16:04] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:17:28] *** mikaela has left the room
[21:18:13] *** lumi has left the room
[21:25:34] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[21:26:26] *** daniel has joined the room
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[21:31:57] *** daniel has left the room
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[21:33:47] *** karp has joined the room
[21:33:47] *** karp shows as "away" and his status message is "..."
[21:37:24] *** efrit has left the room
[21:37:39] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[21:42:56] *** karp has left the room
[21:42:56] *** karp has joined the room
[21:45:28] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:46:25] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:50:29] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:50:49] *** karp has left the room
[21:50:51] *** karp has joined the room
[21:51:02] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[21:51:49] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[21:51:56] *** daniel has left the room
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[21:53:20] *** karp has joined the room
[21:53:35] *** UsL shows as "online"
[21:58:12] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:59:33] *** peter has left the room
[21:59:43] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[21:59:50] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:02:47] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:02:48] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[22:06:21] *** tux has left the room
[22:14:53] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[22:15:31] *** UsL shows as "online"
[22:18:02] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
[22:22:18] *** blabla has joined the room
[22:23:53] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[22:23:56] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[22:25:44] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
[22:25:48] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[22:26:29] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:31:57] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[22:32:00] *** daniel has left the room
[22:37:51] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[22:40:58] *** UsL shows as "online"
[22:46:27] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:47:01] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[22:49:49] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:51:58] *** daniel has left the room
[22:57:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:58:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[22:59:44] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:59:45] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[23:07:31] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[23:07:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:07:49] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:08:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:09:32] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[23:09:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:09:40] *** UsL shows as "online"
[23:10:55] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[23:11:04] *** lskdjf has left the room
[23:16:29] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:16:59] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[23:20:55] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[23:22:15] *** dos has left the room
[23:24:55] *** UsL shows as "online"
[23:28:18] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[23:30:33] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[23:30:37] *** waqas has left the room
[23:36:14] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[23:40:32] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[23:44:00] *** lnj has left the room
[23:48:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:48:13] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:50:36] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[23:52:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:52:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:52:20] *** waqas has joined the room
[23:54:04] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[23:54:32] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:54:42] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"