Thursday, August 16, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

[00:00:44] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[00:01:16] *** thorsten has left the room
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[00:03:31] *** Guus has left the room
[00:04:22] *** Valerian has joined the room
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[00:05:47] *** ralphm has joined the room
[00:06:21] *** winfried shows as "online"
[00:09:57] *** Chobbes has left the room
[00:11:26] *** Chobbes has joined the room
[00:15:07] *** peter has joined the room
[00:17:04] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[00:20:03] *** Guus shows as "online"
[00:20:54] *** winfried shows as "online"
[00:21:22] *** peter has left the room
[00:28:05] *** thorsten has left the room
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[00:28:25] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[00:32:21] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[00:33:38] *** winfried shows as "online"
[00:43:57] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[00:44:46] *** apach has left the room
[00:44:46] *** apach shows as "online"
[00:54:22] *** winfried shows as "online"
[00:54:43] *** thorsten has left the room
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[01:00:52] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[01:05:22] *** vinx55 has joined the room
[01:09:33] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[01:09:47] *** winfried shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[01:09:55] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[01:15:09] *** winfried shows as "online"
[01:15:54] *** winfried has left the room
[01:19:35] *** thorsten has left the room
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[01:24:19] *** Lance has joined the room
[01:24:20] *** Lance shows as "online"
[01:29:16] *** apach has left the room
[01:29:17] *** apach shows as "online"
[01:35:41] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[01:40:43] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
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[01:41:36] *** Chobbes shows as "online"
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[01:44:25] *** thorsten has left the room
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[01:45:02] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[01:45:41] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[01:46:32] *** moparisthebest has left the room
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[01:47:54] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[01:47:56] *** dos shows as "online"
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[01:49:51] *** dos has left the room
[01:50:02] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:50:03] *** dos shows as "online"
[01:50:28] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
[01:55:45] *** vinx55 has left the room
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[01:56:54] *** apach shows as "online"
[02:00:26] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[02:00:53] *** apach shows as "online"
[02:09:35] *** thorsten has left the room
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[02:13:55] *** apach has left the room
[02:13:56] *** apach shows as "online"
[02:14:46] *** apach shows as "online"
[02:16:43] *** dos has left the room
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[02:22:10] *** j.r has joined the room
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[02:58:45] *** 404.city has joined the room
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[03:09:31] *** apach shows as "online"
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[03:16:37] *** labdsf has left the room
[03:16:41] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[03:19:50] *** Guus has left the room
[03:19:54] *** Guus shows as "online"
[03:21:31] *** Guus has left the room
[03:28:56] *** dos shows as "online"
[03:29:06] *** mikaela has joined the room
[03:32:43] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[03:33:32] *** thorsten has left the room
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[03:34:45] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
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[03:34:49] *** thorsten has joined the room
[03:35:44] *** bjc shows as "away"
[03:37:07] *** j.r has joined the room
[03:37:35] *** apach has left the room
[03:37:36] *** apach shows as "online"
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[03:41:49] *** tux has left the room
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[03:42:19] *** mikaela has left the room
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[03:49:26] *** dos shows as "online"
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[03:49:47] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[03:54:01] *** bjc shows as "online"
[03:54:09] *** 404.city has left the room
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[03:56:24] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[03:58:35] *** apach shows as "online"
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[04:07:44] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:08:48] *** bjc shows as "away"
[04:09:48] *** bjc shows as "online"
[04:10:21] *** dos has left the room
[04:10:26] *** dos shows as "online"
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[04:12:09] *** dos shows as "online"
[04:12:27] *** apach has left the room
[04:12:28] *** apach shows as "online"
[04:13:15] *** dos has left the room
[04:13:20] *** dos shows as "online"
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[04:26:06] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[04:37:25] *** Nekit has joined the room
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[04:49:35] *** Guus shows as "online"
[04:49:55] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[04:50:05] *** apach has left the room
[04:50:06] *** apach shows as "online"
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[04:57:19] *** efrit has joined the room
[04:57:34] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:01:15] *** dos shows as "away" and his status message is "Automatyczny status (bezczynny)"
[05:08:12] *** blabla has joined the room
[05:09:06] *** dos shows as "online"
[05:21:04] *** Guus has left the room
[05:21:04] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[05:25:40] *** dos has left the room
[05:27:41] *** Guus shows as "online"
[05:28:51] *** 404.city has left the room
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[05:34:11] *** apach shows as "online"
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[05:39:32] *** apach shows as "online"
[05:42:11] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[05:44:18] *** karp has left the room
[05:44:19] *** karp has joined the room
[05:46:55] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[05:47:11] *** karp shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work"
[05:49:29] *** apach has left the room
[05:49:30] *** apach shows as "online"
[05:50:09] *** dos has left the room
[05:51:03] *** dos shows as "online"
[05:51:36] *** lorddavidiii has joined the room
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[05:53:49] *** dos shows as "online"
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[05:54:11] *** apach shows as "online"
[05:54:12] *** dos has left the room
[05:54:20] *** dos shows as "online"
[05:55:28] *** dos shows as "online"
[05:56:55] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[05:58:16] *** lumi has joined the room
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[06:03:30] *** mikaela has joined the room
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[06:13:05] *** mrdoctorwho shows as "online"
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[06:21:53] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[06:25:13] *** marc has joined the room
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[06:29:08] *** lnj shows as "online"
[06:33:02] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[06:40:06] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "At Home"
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[06:49:38] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[06:49:48] *** intosi shows as "online"
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[06:52:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[06:57:38] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[07:02:55] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[07:05:00] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:05:01] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:09:13] *** jubalh has joined the room
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[07:22:18] *** MattJ shows as "online"
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[07:27:31] *** Guus has left the room
[07:29:26] *** apach shows as "online"
[07:30:00] *** Martin shows as "online"
[07:31:13] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[07:31:34] *** Martin has left the room
[07:31:36] *** Martin shows as "online"
[07:31:52] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[07:33:27] *** dos shows as "online"
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[07:35:24] *** dos shows as "online"
[07:37:15] *** Steve Kille has joined the room
[07:37:16] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[07:37:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[07:39:42] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
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[07:46:05] *** dos shows as "online"
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[07:50:21] *** jonasw shows as "away"
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[07:54:31] *** Guus has left the room
[07:54:39] *** dos shows as "online"
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[07:57:46] *** rishiraj22 shows as "online"
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[08:00:08] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:01:21] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[08:01:52] *** dos shows as "online"
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[08:09:31] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[08:11:24] *** dos has left the room
[08:15:26] *** dos shows as "online"
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[08:17:42] *** thorsten has left the room
[08:18:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[08:20:14] *** Martin shows as "online"
[08:22:03] *** dos shows as "online"
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[08:23:56] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:24:03] *** dos shows as "online"
[08:26:10] *** thorsten has left the room
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[08:26:36] *** dos has left the room
[08:26:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[08:27:22] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[08:28:24] *** thorsten has joined the room
[08:30:40] *** Seve/SouL has joined the room
[08:31:42] *** Chobbes has joined the room
[08:33:41] *** Kev shows as "away"
[08:34:45] *** dos shows as "online"
[08:35:20] *** tux shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Work work …"
[08:35:39] *** tux shows as "away"
[08:38:00] *** Guus has left the room
[08:38:01] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:38:08] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:39:08] *** dos has left the room
[08:41:21] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:41:47] *** dos shows as "online"
[08:44:10] *** dos has left the room
[08:44:15] *** dos shows as "online"
[08:44:44] *** dos has left the room
[08:45:43] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[08:46:01] *** dos shows as "online"
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[08:50:27] *** Syndace has joined the room
[08:50:36] *** Guus shows as "online"
[08:55:11] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:56:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:57:54] *** dos has left the room
[08:57:55] *** dos shows as "online"
[09:03:45] *** dos has left the room
[09:05:30] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[09:05:37] *** la|r|ma shows as "online"
[09:07:09] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:08:02] *** dos shows as "online"
[09:08:08] *** dos has left the room
[09:08:09] *** dos shows as "online"
[09:09:12] *** ThibG has joined the room
[09:09:53] *** Kev shows as "online"
[09:09:59] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:10:26] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[09:10:44] *** jubalh shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:10:50] *** blabla has joined the room
[09:13:45] *** dwd has left the room
[09:14:38] *** dos has left the room
[09:14:44] *** jubalh shows as "online"
[09:14:52] *** dos shows as "online"
[09:15:21] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:15:50] *** dos has left the room
[09:16:02] *** dos shows as "online"
[09:16:31] *** dos has left the room
[09:16:32] *** dos shows as "online"
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[10:41:28] <Link Mauve> Ugh, https://infosec-handbook.eu/blog/xmpp-aitm/
[10:41:37] <Link Mauve> They’re mostly right, but I dislike their conclusions.
[10:42:44] <Ge0rG> Link Mauve: they also had a rant about how bad XMPP is, recently
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[10:43:04] <Ge0rG> https://infosec-handbook.eu/blog/federation-myths/
[10:43:29] <Link Mauve> Ge0rG, this is another.
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[10:44:53] <dwd> Link Mauve, "Furthermore, he is convinced that most XMPP server and client software is more a leisure project than secure software." - there's at least three companies working with XMPP in high security environments.
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[10:52:28] <Zash> Uh, worth reading?
[10:52:37] <daniel> To be fair the companies you are talking about aren't the companies and products most end users are using
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[10:53:35] <daniel> But still at least ejabberd and Conversations are products created by for profit entities
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[10:54:30] <daniel> > Uh, worth reading?
Not really
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[10:55:03] <Zash> > Links
> * How to use Signal more privacy-friendly
[10:55:06] <Zash> Uuuuuhu
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[11:13:27] <edhelas> > solution, don't use Signal
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[11:14:44] <jonasw> > solution, stop doing those computer things and become potato farmer
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[11:16:44] <Ge0rG> jonasw: potato seeds are generticaly manipulated by Monsanto to not reproduce after the first generation, forcing you to buy new seeds from them
[11:17:34] <Zash> Plant potato, get more potato
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[11:40:20] <dwd> Still don't quite understand why "Don't trust an XMPP server operator, they can monitor your traffic really easily!" can be combined with "Use this centralized service, because the admins and hosting providers are totally trustworthy."
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[11:41:35] <Zash> dwd: You dare question our lord and saviour, Moxie?! /s
[11:42:12] <Zash> Something something praise be crypto-jesus
[11:42:15] <edhelas> never question Father Moxie
[11:42:16] <dwd> Well, right. That's why pretty much every *other* cryptographer is working on MLS.
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[11:42:43] <edhelas> and the Signal centralized backend deployed on AWS instances :p
[11:42:57] <edhelas> but it's "Snowden Approved ©"
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[11:43:16] <Zash> and Schneier approved(?)
[11:43:45] <dwd> Yeah, because a guy who dumped a load of stuff he hadn't even read onto a bunch of journalists is a good source of judgement.
[11:43:54] <Zash> The holy trinity giveth unto us Signal
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[11:46:07] <edhelas> by the way, the centralized-xmpp-based-omemo Cryptocat client is not maintained anymore ? https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat
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[11:46:19] <jonasw> dwd, (being devil’s advocate): "because we can deploy useful e2ee"
[11:47:36] <dwd> jonasw, Sure, but the remaining problems still exist - anyone reading the cleartext Signal traffic can read out the routing info.
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[12:14:20] <daniel> edhelas: does that surprise you given the three preceding iterations of that project?
[12:15:34] <Zash> dwd: wait, what?
[12:18:23] <Ge0rG> Zash: Facebook paid TWO MILLION DOLLARS to get moxie's Stamp Of Approval. It must be good!
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[12:20:13] <Ge0rG> Zash: if your "wait, what" relates to Signal: the Signal admins can access exactly the same kind of metadata as your XMPP server admin, except with phone numbers instead of JIDs. But they Totally Promised Not To Do It.
[12:20:39] <edhelas> so this is fine
[12:20:39] <Zash> I read what dwd wrote as an implied lack of transport encryption
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[12:22:47] <Ge0rG> Zash: I think "cleartext Signal traffic" was supposed to mean the post-decryption stream
[12:23:34] <Zash> Noise?
[12:23:49] <Ge0rG> wouldn't that be pre-decryption?
[12:23:51] <Zash> Were they the funny people who named their transport protocol "Noise"?
[12:24:20] <Ge0rG> Zash: drink some more coffee. Or drink less, if you've had some today.
[12:24:35] <Zash> Post-lunch nap perhaps
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[12:28:47] <dwd> Zash, No, I did mean inside the service. I assume it runs TLS etc.
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[12:29:28] <Zash> dwd: I have this feeling that they invented their own TLS and named it Noise
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[12:30:40] <dwd> With that bunch, that's entirely possible.
[12:30:42] <Zash> http://noiseprotocol.org/index.html hmmmmm, doesn't say Signal anywhere?
[12:30:52] <Zash> But WhatsApp
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[13:22:22] <Ge0rG> https://blog.powerdns.com/2018/03/22/the-dns-camel-or-the-rise-in-dns-complexit/ - this is so similar to XMPP
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[13:23:57] <Zash> DNS, complex? But, but, it's being HTTP&JSON-ified! That's the simplest thing evar!!!
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[13:24:52] <Ge0rG> Zash: take your nap already
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[13:28:25] *ralphm waves
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[13:31:49] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
[13:31:52] <ralphm> 0. Welcome
[13:31:56] <ralphm> Who do we have?
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[13:32:06] <ralphm> I'm back from vacation.
[13:32:13] <Guus> o/
[13:32:18] <Guus> welcome back
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[13:33:45] <Guus> (MattJ is always here if you mention him 😛 )
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[13:34:46] <Guus> 😰
[13:36:05] <Guus> *tap* *tap* is this thing on?
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[13:36:40] <MattJ> Hey
[13:36:58] <Guus> 😅
[13:36:59] <MattJ> Sorry, was temporarily distracted by the doorbell :)
[13:37:03] <ralphm> Quorum, yay
[13:37:33] <ralphm> Agenda items?
[13:37:49] <Guus> I don't have any
[13:38:01] <MattJ> I haven't looked at Trello in a while
[13:38:27] <Guus> at what point are we going to send someone over to Martin's house to check if he's OK?
[13:38:48] <Guus> (not you, Martin. The other Martin)
[13:39:15] <MattJ> He did reply to my email fairly promptly, so he's "around"
[13:39:32] <Ge0rG> so no need to send a SWAT team?
[13:39:46] <ralphm> Didn't we discuss this back in June?
[13:39:55] <ralphm> 21, specifically
[13:39:57] <MattJ> Probably
[13:40:33] <ralphm> Any updates on your side MattJ?
[13:40:50] <MattJ> No, the only thing on my side is GDPR, and I'm afraid I've not had time to work on it
[13:40:58] <ralphm> Now vacation is over and summer is coming to an end, we should be able to get back in motion.
[13:41:09] <MattJ> Yes, hopefully
[13:41:17] <MattJ> Just before the end of the term :)
[13:41:34] <Guus> which reminds me: should we start looking for the next Board?
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[13:42:15] <ralphm> That was going to be my only thing for today. Ask Alex when he wants to start that process.
[13:42:30] <ralphm> We can already start poking people for interest.
[13:42:31] <Guus> sounds like a plan
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[13:42:53] <Guus> maybe we should also curate our to-do list, see what things we can reasonably expect to get done this term, and what not
[13:43:37] *ralphm nods
[13:43:54] <ralphm> I'll have a look at it for next week.
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[13:44:04] <ralphm> Anything else?
[13:44:07] <Guus> And, while on the subject:
[13:44:27] <MattJ> Nothing else from me
[13:44:43] <Guus> Should we consider putting in place a system where we do not replace the entire board each year?
[13:44:59] <Guus> have two-year terms, staggered - something like that?
[13:45:37] <Guus> I'm hoping that that'll prevent ramp-up and shut-down overhead, by making it more of an ongoing process.
[13:45:41] <ralphm> Not sure. I don't think it has been a problem before.
[13:45:55] <ralphm> All boards I was part of had overlap
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[13:46:28] <dwd> ralphm, Yes, but not by design, and there's always a feeling that Board can't do anything that goes beyond its term.
[13:47:15] <ralphm> That's a good point. This would require changes to our Bylaws, though. Not sure if we can do that before these elections.
[13:47:25] <Guus> oh, I'm not in a hurry
[13:47:37] <dwd> ralphm, I have occasionally wondered about staggered terms, or an "executive team" that actually does the work, that can be recalled by subsequent boards.
[13:47:39] <Guus> shall I post on the members list, see if there's support or not?
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[13:48:31] <MattJ> We really don't have any kind of executive team
[13:48:49] <ralphm> dwd: well, yeah, but since we currently don't even have an Executive Director, we'd to figure out what that all means.
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[13:50:46] <ralphm> Guus: please do.
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[13:50:59] <Guus> k
[13:51:36] <ralphm> Ok. My last thing was more of a note: FOSDEM has posted a CfP for 2019. Dates are February 2 and 3.
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[13:51:59] <Guus> ah, someone should kick SCAM in action
[13:52:14] <ralphm> So was penciling in Jan 31 and Feb 1 for our own stuff.
[13:55:09] <Guus> Sounds good. I've marked it on my personal calendar
[13:56:04] <ralphm> Ok.
[13:56:14] <ralphm> Cya next week!
[13:56:23] *ralphm bangs gavel
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[14:55:16] <Dave Cridland> So, I've been debugging XEP-0198 support. And I tried - because it seemed easiest - including XEP-0198 data on the stanza itself, as namespaced attributes. Gajim seemed to ignore it - anyone any idea if any clients would choke?
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[14:57:09] <Dave Cridland> (I was doing this as debugging info I was *hoping* would be ignored, mind...)
[14:57:22] <Link Mauve> I still can’t understand how clients could choke on this proper usage of XML, while we are already doing it e.g. for @xml:lang.
[14:57:23] <Ge0rG> Dave Cridland: that smells of protocol abuse. But if you give me credentials / IBR, I can test yaxim
[14:58:12] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, We've avoided namespaced attributes in general because people do screw it up, or at least have historically.
[14:58:40] <Link Mauve> I’d really like to see data on that.
[14:58:48] <Link Mauve> Please deploy that in the wild. :)
[14:58:55] <Ge0rG> I also need to debug an SM anomaly that I've encountered, where messages get duplicated on resume. Sometimes.
[14:59:26] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, They're a bit of a weird one, in terms of XML, since <x xmlns='foo' attr='blah'/> is entirely different from <a:x xmlns:a='foo' a:attr='blah'/>.
[15:00:07] <flow> Ge0rG, duplicates send *after* resume?
[15:00:36] <Dave Cridland> Ge0rG, This ought to help track that one down. I'll throw you my IBR-enabled test server's details.
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[15:01:34] <flow> Dave Cridland, care to share why those elements are different?
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[15:01:48] <Link Mauve> Dave Cridland, first one would be equivalent to <a:x xmlns:a='foo' attr='blah'/>, because non-prefixed attributes are in the null namespace.
[15:01:53] <Link Mauve> flow, ↑
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[15:02:14] <Link Mauve> But you can perfectly have them in other namespaces.
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[15:02:35] <Dave Cridland> flow, As Link Mauve says. But thanks for being an exemplar case of not understanding the things.
[15:02:55] <Link Mauve> <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:b='bar' b:attr='baz'/> works, but it’s a totally different element.
[15:03:36] <Link Mauve> And thus you can also have <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:b='bar' attr='blah' b:attr='baz'/>, with no conflict.
[15:03:42] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, I'm not sure that a non-prefixed attribute is in any namespace at all, as such.
[15:04:00] <Link Mauve> Which is equal to <a:x xmlns:a='foo' xmlns:b='bar' attr='blah' b:attr='baz'/>.
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[15:04:17] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, So you can't, for example, say <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:null='' null:attr=blah'/>
[15:04:26] <Link Mauve> Indeed.
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[15:04:52] <Link Mauve> Instead of “the null namespace” I should have said “no namespace”, but null is how this is represented at least in JS and Java.
[15:06:00] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, Right, but "attr" is "The attr attribute of x", whereas your "b:attr" is the "attr attribute of the bar namespace".
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[15:06:31] <Link Mauve> Hmm…
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[15:07:22] <Dave Cridland> But in any case, corner-cases like <a xmlns:a='a' xmlns:b='a' a:a='bar' b:a='foo'/> can easily slip through.
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[15:07:47] <Dave Cridland> Since that XML happens to be legal if you're not processing namespaces, but illegal if you are.
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[15:07:58] <Link Mauve> Why? :/
[15:08:17] <Link Mauve> Ah, missed that both are the same namespace.
[15:08:33] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, Right.
[15:08:49] <Link Mauve> But are there really XML libraries which fail on that?
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[15:09:07] <Link Mauve> I’d expect they to be fixed by then.
[15:09:29] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, I'd fully expect that XML to traverse most servers.
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[15:10:45] <flow> possibly depending on the layer where the XML is embedded. Not all intermediate hops parse each and every part of the stanza
[15:11:04] <Dave Cridland> flow, Right. Or at least, not to the namespace level.
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[15:13:11] <Link Mauve> % nc 82.226.255.187 5222
<?xml version='1.0'?><stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' xml:lang='en' xmlns='jabber:client' to='linkmauve.fr'>
<?xml version='1.0'?><stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' xml:lang='en' from='linkmauve.fr' id='a8ccb26b-51b5-4a48-b1cb-ea4734f61a7f' xmlns='jabber:client'><stream:features><starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'><required/></starttls></stream:features>


<a xmlns:a='foo' xmlns:b='foo' a:coucou='abc' b:coucou='def'/>
<stream:error><not-well-formed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/></stream:error></stream:stream>
[15:13:19] <Link Mauve> At least Prosody correctly rejects it.
[15:13:32] <Ge0rG> flow: yes, because smack3+0198 was miscounting.
[15:13:57] <flow> Link Mauve, even if it is embedded deep down in an extension element within a stanza?
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[15:14:05] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, I'd expect Prosody to, because it's using Expat underneath, right?
[15:14:46] <MattJ> Correct
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[15:15:16] <Dave Cridland> Link Mauve, But ejabberd uses RapidXML, as does Metre. I'm not sure about Openfire actually - but it wouldn't surprise me if it passed them through unscathed.
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[17:09:58] <Holger> ejabberd uses Expat.
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[17:11:49] <MattJ> I thought so. I thought dwd was implying they switched
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[17:18:47] <dwd> Holger, Oh, I thought the new stuff was using an Erland-wrapped RapidXML?
[17:18:56] <dwd> Erlang, even.
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[17:20:18] <Holger> dwd: Nope still Erlang-wrapped Expat, I'm not aware of attempts to switch.
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[17:21:44] <Holger> There was a major rewrite of the wrapping itself, which is now mostly in C.
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[17:28:01] <dwd> Ah! MongooseIM, not ejabberd. exml is now RapidXML.
[17:28:11] <dwd> But confusingly, I don't think they use my fork.
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[17:44:08] *** daniel has left the room
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[17:49:43] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[17:50:25] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:51:01] *** Kev shows as "online"
[17:52:27] *** matlag has left the room
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[17:58:29] *** MbJ3 shows as "online"
[18:00:58] *** alacer has left the room
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[18:01:42] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:02:13] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[18:04:13] *** peter shows as "online"
[18:05:11] *** pep. shows as "online"
[18:05:16] *** pep. shows as "online"
[18:05:36] *** marc has left the room
[18:07:03] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:07:04] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:08:11] *** jjrh has left the room
[18:08:12] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[18:08:39] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:10:40] *** Martin has joined the room
[18:12:29] *** UsL shows as "online"
[18:12:42] *** lovetox has joined the room
[18:14:23] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:15:09] *** rishiraj22 has left the room
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[18:16:33] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[18:18:44] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
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[18:21:37] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[18:22:47] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[18:23:04] *** winfried has left the room
[18:23:11] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[18:25:29] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:27:56] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[18:29:32] *** Syndace has joined the room
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[18:31:34] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[18:31:55] *** Tobias has left the room
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[18:34:07] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:34:20] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:36:13] *** labdsf has left the room
[18:36:14] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:36:55] *** marc has joined the room
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[18:39:11] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[18:40:25] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:40:38] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[18:41:24] *** UsL shows as "online"
[18:41:51] *** karp has left the room
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[18:44:29] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[18:45:50] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:46:04] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[18:54:10] *** peter shows as "online"
[18:56:59] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[18:57:24] *** bjc shows as "away"
[18:58:58] *** labdsf has left the room
[18:59:01] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:59:20] *** labdsf has left the room
[18:59:34] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:59:50] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[19:02:17] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[19:02:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:02:46] *** MbJ3 has left the room
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[19:03:46] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[19:07:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:08:01] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:08:39] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[19:10:14] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:10:15] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[19:11:09] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[19:11:41] *** waqas has joined the room
[19:11:48] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[19:16:59] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[19:17:26] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:17:31] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[19:17:56] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[19:18:47] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[19:19:09] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[19:21:01] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:21:10] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:21:48] *** lumi shows as "online"
[19:22:36] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:24:29] *** labdsf has left the room
[19:24:31] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[19:30:52] *** bjc shows as "online"
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[19:31:21] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:35:35] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
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[19:40:45] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[19:42:16] *** bjc shows as "away"
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[19:46:28] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:46:32] *** dos has left the room
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[19:51:32] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:52:03] *** js shows as "away" and his status message is "Abwesend"
[19:53:25] *** dos has left the room
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[20:02:12] *** js shows as "away" and his status message is "Abwesend"
[20:04:34] *** dos has joined the room
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[20:06:56] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[20:09:15] *** dos has left the room
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[20:10:45] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:13:32] *** Valerian has left the room
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[20:15:08] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[20:16:11] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[20:16:41] *** lumi shows as "online"
[20:17:00] *** lumi has left the room
[20:18:25] *** lorddavidiii has left the room
[20:19:14] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:21:43] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:23:14] *** js shows as "away" and his status message is "Abwesend"
[20:23:35] *** js shows as "online"
[20:23:44] *** 404.city has left the room
[20:24:14] *** goffi has left the room
[20:24:25] *** 404.city has joined the room
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[20:27:01] *** thorsten has left the room
[20:27:14] *** labdsf has left the room
[20:27:20] *** thorsten has joined the room
[20:29:35] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:30:49] *** Andrew Nenakhov has joined the room
[20:32:08] *** thorsten has left the room
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[20:32:46] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[20:35:21] *** dos has left the room
[20:35:25] *** dos has joined the room
[20:38:43] *** j.r has left the room
[20:39:00] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:39:18] *** j.r has joined the room
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[20:40:06] *** matlag has joined the room
[20:41:24] *** bjc shows as "online"
[20:42:39] *** 404.city has left the room
[20:42:45] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:43:04] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[20:44:14] *** jjrh has left the room
[20:44:14] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[20:46:23] *** Ge0rG has left the room
[20:46:29] *** Ge0rG shows as "online"
[20:47:57] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:48:16] *** Chobbes has joined the room
[20:50:00] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[20:50:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:50:56] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:51:27] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:01:29] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:03:09] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:06:44] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:07:59] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[21:08:33] *** jjrh has left the room
[21:08:34] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:09:34] *** marc has left the room
[21:09:41] *** MbJ3 shows as "online"
[21:13:14] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[21:21:06] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:22:41] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:25:00] *** jjrh has left the room
[21:25:01] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:25:26] *** winfried shows as "online"
[21:25:31] *** winfried shows as "online"
[21:25:36] *** marc has joined the room
[21:27:15] *** lnj shows as "online"
[21:27:16] *** !XSF_Martin has left the room
[21:27:17] *** lnj_ has joined the room
[21:30:14] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:30:34] *** UsL shows as "online"
[21:31:59] *** cookie shows as "online"
[21:32:20] *** blabla has joined the room
[21:35:59] *** lnj_ has left the room
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[21:42:42] *** apach has left the room
[21:42:43] *** apach shows as "online"
[21:43:14] *** lskdjf has joined the room
[21:43:14] *** la|r|ma has joined the room
[21:46:40] *** Chobbes has left the room
[21:46:42] *** Chobbes has joined the room
[21:48:50] *** UsL shows as "away" and his status message is " (afk at least 6 minutes by now)"
[21:50:21] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:50:29] *** jjrh has left the room
[21:50:30] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[21:56:50] *** UsL shows as "xa" and his status message is " (ded at least 14 minutes by now)"
[22:00:57] *** lovetox has joined the room
[22:06:03] *** thorsten has left the room
[22:06:05] *** valo has left the room
[22:06:30] *** thorsten has joined the room
[22:07:48] *** lovetox shows as "online"
[22:09:56] *** lovetox has left the room
[22:11:29] *** dos has left the room
[22:11:37] *** dos has joined the room
[22:12:57] *** apach has left the room
[22:12:58] *** apach shows as "online"
[22:13:06] *** thorsten has left the room
[22:13:22] *** thorsten has joined the room
[22:14:18] *** marc has joined the room
[22:18:03] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:20:01] *** peter has left the room
[22:20:22] *** mikaela has left the room
[22:23:24] *** pep. has left the room
[22:23:28] *** pep. shows as "online"
[22:24:03] *** blabla has left the room
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[22:30:43] *** thorsten has left the room
[22:30:59] *** thorsten has joined the room
[22:32:34] *** MbJ3 shows as "online"
[22:33:34] *** dos has left the room
[22:33:45] *** dos has joined the room
[22:34:01] *** dos has left the room
[22:34:13] *** MbJ3 has left the room
[22:34:15] *** MbJ3 shows as "online"
[22:38:21] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:39:44] *** blabla has joined the room
[22:42:29] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[22:44:25] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:48:25] *** dos has joined the room
[22:48:47] *** dos has left the room
[22:48:49] *** dos has joined the room
[22:55:44] *** dos has left the room
[22:55:47] *** dos has joined the room
[22:57:27] *** dos has left the room
[23:03:31] *** dos has joined the room
[23:03:58] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:04:37] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:04:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:05:29] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:05:39] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:05:58] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:06:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:07:05] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[23:07:12] *** Steve Kille shows as "away" and his status message is "Hampton"
[23:07:16] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:07:31] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:07:41] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:08:20] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:08:24] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:08:37] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:08:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:09:17] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:09:20] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:09:46] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:10:34] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:12:26] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:12:53] *** lnj has left the room
[23:15:22] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:15:35] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:16:44] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:16:47] *** lskdjf shows as "online"
[23:16:56] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:18:22] *** Steve Kille has left the room
[23:18:32] *** js has left the room
[23:18:40] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:19:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:20:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[23:22:48] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:23:52] *** js has joined the room
[23:24:52] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:28:09] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:28:10] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:29:06] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:31:25] *** apach has left the room
[23:31:25] *** apach shows as "online"
[23:31:33] *** lnj has joined the room
[23:32:21] *** thorsten has left the room
[23:32:37] *** thorsten has joined the room
[23:34:07] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[23:34:25] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[23:44:43] *** la|r|ma has left the room
[23:44:47] *** la|r|ma has joined the room