Thursday, September 20, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[06:56:18] <ralphm> Steve Kille: yes, that's why I said: you can have multiple different identities and disco extension forms in one result.
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[06:58:41] <ralphm> Not convinced yet you need node='mix' "to make this work".
[06:59:17] <jonas’> indeed, merged information could work just as well
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[07:00:26] <ralphm> The problem I have with the current solution is that I can't just discover from an unknown JID that it is a MIX room. I'd have to know, somehow, for the MIX specific information.
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[07:20:26] <Steve Kille> ralphm: I don't have time to look at the MIX spec this week and consider this point. I will review next week. Shall I respond in the MUC or by email to the list?
[07:20:37] <ralphm> I was already drafting it
[07:20:50] <Steve Kille> ta
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[07:43:45] <ralphm> To be found at https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-September/035355.html
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[07:46:49] <Steve Kille> ralphm: ta. Will respond next week
[07:47:09] <ralphm> Cool
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[08:25:52] <Maranda> SamWhited: battery usage reduction with heavy muc usage is consistent between 50-60% on my device with those optimizations using Conversations btw
[08:27:48] <Ge0rG> Maranda: what optimizations?
[08:27:51] <Maranda> I just had to adjust the queue max buffer amount to make it less detrimental to notifications as well
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[08:28:22] <Ge0rG> I don't understand
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[08:28:47] <Maranda> Ge0rG: gimme the time to type will you?
[08:28:53] <Maranda> 🤸‍♂️
[08:29:30] <Ge0rG> Maranda: sorry, I misunderstood your sentence as a response to my question. If only we had threads!
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[08:32:07] <Maranda> Ge0rG: presence deduplicated queuing, filtering of bodyless message payloads, and queuing of all groupchat type messages except mentions basically (anything not meeting criterias triggers a flush)
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[08:32:22] <Maranda> Ge0rG: that's the optimization
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[08:33:05] <Ge0rG> Maranda: okay, nothing surprising here. What's the baseline you are measuring against?
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[08:33:24] <Maranda> (CSI obviously)
[08:33:38] <Ge0rG> Maranda: also do you flush MUC OMEMO immediately?
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[08:34:04] <Ge0rG> Maranda: CSI is not a baseline, it's a signaling mechanism
[08:34:19] <jonas’> (the "(CSI obviously)" was obviously not meant in response to your baseline request)
[08:34:31] <jonas’> (because it had parenthesis and doesn’t make sense as an answer)
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[08:35:20] <Ge0rG> Maybe I should remove myself from the discussion then, I fail to process what I'm reading.
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[08:36:48] <Maranda> Ge0rG: for now I just tested on my server and gathered numbers from my own usage as I said, hard to find people willing to be sample subjects 😜
[08:37:14] <Ge0rG> Maranda: you make a prosody module, I deploy it.
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[08:38:02] <Maranda> Ge0rG: 😆
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[08:49:45] <Maranda> I implement both (part of) SIFT and CSI in the same module while Prosody has several submodules hookin' on mod_csi so I'd have to look if porting of portions of the current code is viable
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[08:56:17] <Ge0rG> Maranda: what do you need SIFT for?
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[08:58:37] <MattJ> Ha, SIFT
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[08:59:02] <Maranda> Ge0rG: allowing clients to decide which stanzas to filter but since there're 0 implementations as usual I guess: "nothing"
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[09:01:17] <Maranda> SIFT was supposed to replace part of the featureset provided by Privacy Lists afair
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[09:37:12] <!xsf_martin> > Maranda: you make a prosody module, I deploy it.
Me too
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[12:48:21] <pep.> > Ge0rG> Maranda: sorry, I misunderstood your sentence as a response to my question. If only we had threads!
haha.
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[13:30:08] <MattJ> Who do we have today?
[13:30:23] <ralphm> Hi!
[13:30:30] <MattJ> \o
[13:30:31] *ralphm bangs gavel
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[13:30:45] <nyco> _o/
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[13:30:59] <Guus> hi!
[13:31:12] <MattJ> Ok, all we need now is Martin to appear :)
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[13:31:21] <ralphm> 0. Welcome + Agenda
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[13:31:40] <ralphm> Welcome all. Apologies for not being here for a fit.
[13:31:41] <ralphm> bit
[13:32:06] <ralphm> Things should be more quiet (schedule-wise) going forward.
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[13:32:13] <nyco> no pb
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[13:33:09] <ralphm> Anything in particular we should discuss today?
[13:33:17] <ralphm> Elections come to mind
[13:33:32] <nyco> Board prios... for next term
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[13:33:43] <Guus> one sec, someone at door
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[13:33:49] <nyco> https://trello.com/c/Al4GHsYy/311-proposed-prios-for-the-2018-2019-board-based-on-survey
[13:34:22] *ralphm nods
[13:34:31] <jonas’> how’s the survey going?
[13:35:25] <MattJ> jonas’, results were posted here quite a while back
[13:35:50] <MattJ> Current discussion is what actions to take based on the results
[13:36:04] <jonas’> oh
[13:36:07] <jonas’> I must’ve missed them
[13:36:17] <jonas’> were they also posted to members@?
[13:36:22] <MattJ> It's nearing the end of this term, but it would be good to get a head-start with some recommendations for the next Board
[13:36:50] <jonas’> if not, posting them to members@ would be nice
[13:36:52] <MattJ> Not sure, if not I can dig them up in a bit
[13:37:12] <ralphm> Since we're kind of there:
[13:37:15] <MattJ> The minutes should have linked to them, but our minutes have been a bit sketchy as of late
[13:37:17] <ralphm> 1. Survey
[13:38:46] <Guus> (back)
[13:39:00] <ralphm> I read the summary on the Trello ticket. Seems reasonable.
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[13:39:45] <MattJ> Yeah, I think we generally agreed with that. Concrete actions are harder to recommend
[13:39:46] <ralphm> Except I think the Board's first priority is always what is listed as 2 here: Organisation (9) => bureaucracy, funding
[13:39:53] <MattJ> A lot of things circle back to our finance situation, at the end of the day
[13:40:07] <ralphm> For 3 (standards development) we have Council and Editors
[13:41:41] <MattJ> I think the key is for Board to enable these things to happen
[13:42:02] <ralphm> I am indeed not sure what Board specifically can do itself for the other two points.
[13:42:04] <ralphm> Right
[13:42:31] <ralphm> We'd still need other people to make thing happen. E.g. I am really happy with the newsletter by JC and others
[13:42:45] <MattJ> Well I think the big thing the survey highlighted for me is that everyone agrees there should be more IRL events
[13:43:06] <ralphm> So basically we need to spice up SCAM
[13:43:08] <MattJ> pep. organised an unofficial hackathon, which was great... and hopefully we will have some more
[13:43:27] <MattJ> It was unclear whether these events can draw from SCAM, so I think that is one thing we can discuss
[13:43:38] <Guus> Actually, the should be
[13:43:39] <MattJ> I'm not even sure it's unclear to me, just that it could be more explicit
[13:43:43] <Guus> (able to draw from SCAM)
[13:44:03] <ralphm> Well, at least for promotion
[13:44:08] <Guus> but we have not much of protocol nor history, which makes it hard for people to know what to expect from SCAM
[13:44:12] <MattJ> I don't want to speak for pep., but for example I suspect it could be clearer what process he would have needed to go through
[13:44:30] <ralphm> if there are things needed, like materials, why not see if the XSF can help out there
[13:44:59] <MattJ> I think things turned out just fine as they were (Collabora sponsored it generally), but for future reference at least it would be good to get this more organised
[13:45:20] <nyco> I think and believe we (XSF) should let go some stuff
I mean software
we are a bunch of low level developers, doing low level stuff, like protocols
we are not bad at it (could be better, always)

I think and believe we need to catalyse higher steps in the software stacks
like bring in developers who are not protocol-minded or protocol-oriented
we need software developers who are into better UX and UI
we need to test and improve things end-to-end

it may be time to revive "Modern XMPP"
except there should be no "XMPP" in the title
because once again that focusses on the protocol
let's focus on chat and chat alone, start from here, improve things, one step at a time
[13:45:22] <Guus> Agreed - it's on one of my many to-do lists (with SCAM hat on)
[13:46:38] <Guus> what do you mean with "letting go software" ?
[13:46:39] <MattJ> nyco, "Modern XMPP" (if you refer to my talk some time ago) is not dead, nor is it an XSF activity
[13:46:52] <nyco> I know
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[13:46:57] <edhelas> XMPP 2.0
[13:47:10] <MattJ> and since it targets developers, neither should it be rebranded (though a user facing brand is a separate issue that the XSF may or may not want to tackle)
[13:47:11] <ralphm> nyco: yes, I think the XSF remains primarily a standards organisation, and there's always been debate if we can/should be at the center of development
[13:47:41] <nyco> not "XMPP 2.0", because it focusses on the protocol
[13:47:51] <ralphm> We made a more or less explicit choice here when we went from Jabber Software Foundation to XMPP Standards Foundation.
[13:47:57] <nyco> XSJ used to be JSF
[13:48:02] <nyco> oh the glorious days
[13:48:09] <MattJ> There is a lot of uncertainty about the Jabber trademark... some people use it, some refuse to
[13:48:14] <Guus> ralphm: I don't understand, or see that debate. We're not developing software as the XSF - apart from some tooling for our own benefit?
[13:48:23] <nyco> we can start an informal movement, see where it goes
[13:48:41] <Ge0rG> ralphm: was it an explicit decision back then?
[13:48:54] <ralphm> Guus: well, for example, should we promote certain implementations?Tthat's what has come up numerous times.
[13:49:02] <Ge0rG> nyco: do you have the man power for that?
[13:49:04] <nyco> not the XSF
[13:49:16] <MattJ> ralphm, the survey fairly clearly indicated that people value the XSF's neutrality
[13:49:18] <Guus> Ralphm: but we do not, and agreed recently to will not change that.
[13:49:18] <nyco> Ge0rG that's what I am working on
[13:49:19] <ralphm> Ge0rG: from my recollection, yes
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[13:49:37] <ralphm> Guus: indeed, and I think that supports what nyco said in his wall-of-text
[13:49:47] <Ge0rG> I've called out for a new Jabber Software Foundation to care about UX and branding and supporting developers for some years now.
[13:50:02] <nyco> Ge0rG I know, let's just do it
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[13:50:18] <ralphm> Just like our protocol is distributed, there's no reason for a software organisation to exist next to the XSF
[13:50:18] <Guus> I'm not against people doing things like that - but that'll be out of scope of the XSF, won't it?
[13:50:20] <MattJ> Ge0rG, calling out helps a lot :)
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[13:50:32] <Guus> (so by all means, go for it, but lets not make it a topic here?)
[13:50:36] <MattJ> ralphm, assume you meant "not to exist"
[13:50:38] <ralphm> *not* to exist
[13:50:39] <nyco> there's no reason for a software organisation NOT to exist next to the XSF
[13:51:03] <nyco> Guus indeed, I think it is out of the scope of the XSF, not the XSF to decide
[13:51:05] <ralphm> (well, we got that clear, phew)
[13:51:09] <MattJ> I think everyone agrees with this, and pep. and I have been looking into it a little
[13:51:40] <ralphm> I have some ideas, too, but not as part of the XSF indeed.
[13:51:48] <Guus> if we all agree that this is not a matter for the XSF and thus its board - let's move on? 🙂
[13:51:54] <MattJ> Yep :)
[13:52:08] <nyco> yes
[13:52:10] <ralphm> So, going back to the topic, we can conclude that we *do* want to continue supporting community events
[13:52:23] <ralphm> For now, I'm looking forward to FOSDEM again.
[13:52:30] <pep.> Sorry I'm at work, can't follow all this, I'll try to reply later if necessary
[13:52:54] <Guus> FOSDEM + summit
[13:53:00] <ralphm> As a FYI: the real-time peeps have requested a Realtime Devroom again, and I will do the same for the Lounge
[13:53:09] <ralphm> 2. FOSDEM + Summit
[13:53:37] <MattJ> Thanks ralphm
[13:53:40] <ralphm> Guus: let's get kicking for this, hopefully preparing better and getting more people there
[13:54:20] <Guus> agreed
[13:54:21] <ralphm> Ideas welcome, of course
[13:54:34] <Guus> let's do that in SCAM context
[13:54:47] <Guus> (I want to ping Seve about some of his ideas he had last year)
[13:54:55] <ralphm> scam@muc.xmpp.org as always
[13:55:07] <Guus> agreed
[13:55:13] <ralphm> 3. Elections
[13:55:25] <Guus> When is our tenure over?
[13:55:37] <ralphm> It is September again, so I guess we need to invoke Alex to start up the process
[13:55:50] <ralphm> Early November I think
[13:55:54] <Guus> ok
[13:56:19] <ralphm> 4. AOB
[13:56:22] <ralphm> Anything else?
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[13:56:41] <nyco> POSS ?
[13:56:46] <nyco> Paris Open Source Summit
[13:56:53] <nyco> or next meeting?
[13:57:02] <Guus> nyco, take that to SCAM?
[13:57:08] <ralphm> SCAM first indeed
[13:57:14] <Guus> no need for the board to decide on that, I think?
[13:57:15] <ralphm> then Board if needed
[13:57:29] <nyco> oh yes, of course, sorry
[13:57:35] <Guus> no AOB from me
[13:57:38] <ralphm> 5. Date of Next
[13:57:41] <ralphm> +1W
[13:57:50] <ralphm> 6. Close
[13:57:53] <nyco> +1
[13:57:54] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[13:57:58] <nyco> thx!
[13:57:59] <Guus> wfm
[13:57:59] *ralphm bangs gavel
[13:58:01] <MattJ> Thanks ralphm
[13:58:08] <ralphm> Good to be back :-D
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[14:00:04] <MattJ> Good to have you back :)
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[14:01:19] <Guus> plz apply same magic to Martin
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[14:02:22] <ralphm> Oh, who can make minutes?
[14:02:43] <MattJ> I'll add it to my backlog
[14:03:08] <MattJ> Once I get going it's fine, I'll probably push them all out in a batch once I'm done with what I'm currently doing
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[14:06:35] <ralphm> yay
[14:06:43] <nyco> thx MattJ
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[14:15:50] <jonas’> MattJ, the last minutes sent to members@ only had "Draft a membership survey on priorities." :(
[14:15:53] <jonas’> so... yeah
[14:16:01] <jonas’> please re-send the survey results to members@ when you get around to it
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[14:37:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[14:41:43] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
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[14:42:50] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[14:48:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[14:57:51] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[15:15:46] *** cookie shows as "away"
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[15:39:28] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
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[16:23:35] *** blabla shows as "online"
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[16:28:23] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "Hampton"
[16:28:56] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
[16:32:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[16:45:44] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[16:45:53] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[17:03:02] *** Yagiza shows as "online" and his status message is "Доступен"
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[17:10:32] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:11:03] *** Andrew Nenakhov has left the room
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[17:11:14] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[17:16:12] *** rion shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[18:02:07] *** l shows as "online"
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[18:06:17] *** intosi shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[18:29:15] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[18:34:47] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[18:35:25] *** lovetox shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away, idle 5 min)"
[18:35:38] *** Holger shows as "online"
[18:36:56] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[18:52:08] *** Holger shows as "online"
[18:52:34] <jonas’> ralphm, good points, I like it, +1 (on XEP-0369, disco#info things)
[18:54:46] *** lovetox shows as "online"
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[19:58:12] *** rion shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[20:11:02] *** Holger shows as "online"
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[20:19:43] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[20:22:55] *** goffi has left the room
[20:30:46] *** lnj shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:36:46] *** tux shows as "online"
[20:39:45] *** lnj shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Nicht verfügbar wegen Untätigkeit seit mehr als 15 Minuten)"
[20:40:32] *** j.r has left the room
[20:40:37] *** l shows as "online"
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[20:48:39] *** lnj shows as "online"
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[20:54:15] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[20:57:37] *** labdsf has left the room
[20:58:02] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[21:23:01] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[21:49:20] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:51:12] *** equil has left the room
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[21:57:37] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
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[22:02:39] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[22:02:45] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:04:13] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[22:06:11] *** Lance has joined the room
[22:06:12] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:06:35] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:06:36] *** tux has left the room
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[22:07:36] *** l shows as "online"
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[22:37:00] *** apach shows as "online"
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[22:44:38] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[23:14:33] *** lumi shows as "away" and his status message is "(Idle 10 min)"
[23:14:51] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[23:15:57] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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