Thursday, September 27, 2018
xsf@muc.xmpp.org
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XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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[05:54:24] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: https://blog.cloudflare.com/esni/
> As ISPs increasingly acquire media companies and ad targeting businesses, being able to mine the data flowing through their pipes is an increasingly attractive business for them and an increasingly troubling privacy threat to all of us.
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[06:00:14] <jonas’> nice
[06:00:20] <jonas’> nobody had time to look into the website apparently
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[06:02:29] <jonas’> I’m back on it, I have a hunch what might have happened
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[06:19:44] <jonas’> I think I have a hotfix, waiting for the build to prove me either right or wrong :)
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[06:27:01] <jonas’> bear, can you please confirm that the content somebody reported missing is back?
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[09:01:11] <edhelas> hi everyone, I've posted a messages on standards a couple of days ago and I'd like some feedback before I start my work on he adjustements :) https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-September/035361.html
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[11:43:56] <moparisthebest> ugh Ge0rG , not the RFC I was following, it mentions that one of it's hard requirements was 'do not stick out' so they just... decided to stick out anyway...
[11:44:29] <moparisthebest> still, they are correct if all the browsers support this, it'll no longer stick out
[11:44:57] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: it looks like you are responding to a different point than the one I made, but this is okay.
[11:45:00] <moparisthebest> the other downside is the other RFC draft encrypted *all* extensions, so ALPN etc was free
[11:45:48] <moparisthebest> ah well I agree with that Ge0rG , but if anything this proves what I said, encryption is the answer, not legislation
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[11:46:59] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: you can't encrypt all the things. And if you try, governments will mandate backdoors
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[11:48:48] <moparisthebest> I disagree, I think you certainly can encrypt all the things
[11:49:18] <moparisthebest> and, only bad governments, plus, they are already mandating backdoors aren't they?
[11:49:32] <Zash> Encryption does not exist in a vacuum.
[11:50:59] <Ge0rG> https://www.caliopen.org/en/
> Privacy for all of your online correspondance. Caliopen collects in a single interface private messages from mobile apps (Twitter, Facebook), email, instant messaging, texts…
I can't even...
[11:51:20] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: bad governments like the US of A?
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[11:52:34] <moparisthebest> so far USA hasn't mandated backdoors, only requested them
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[11:53:17] <moparisthebest> USA seems to have by far the best 'free speech' protections, which also relates to encryption, so hopefully it will be fine
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[12:08:24] <edhelas> Ge0rG that is the project from Laurent Chemla :p
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[12:13:57] <flow> edhelas, who is Laurent Chemla?
[12:15:41] <edhelas> one of the founder of Gandi https://www.gandi.net/en https://twitter.com/laurentchemla
[12:17:46] <flow> I see
[12:18:56] <edhelas> but yeah Caliopen looks weird to me
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[12:39:13] <Ge0rG> edhelas: they plugged into the WA E2EE thread at https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1045045964245950465 and I wondered about their mystical "E2E with business model" pitch, just to land on _that_ page
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[13:30:08] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
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[13:30:16] *ralphm bangs gavel
[13:30:21] <ralphm> 0. Welcome and agenda
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[13:30:25] <ralphm> Hi!
[13:30:28] <ralphm> Who do we have?
[13:30:32] <nyco> oh hey!
[13:30:37] <nyco> _o/
[13:31:14] <nyco> Guus is here
[13:31:21] *Guus is here
[13:31:24] <nyco> (we were privately ch...
[13:31:25] <nyco> see?
[13:31:26] <nyco> ;-)
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[13:31:52] <ralphm> MattJ?
[13:31:52] <Guus> nyco: my client lost the tab in which I was one-on-one chatting with you
[13:31:58] <Guus> dind't get the last two lines I think
[13:32:05] <ralphm> Guus: no MAM?
[13:32:09] <nyco> I've been omemo'ed
[13:32:16] <MattJ> Hey
[13:32:22] <Guus> ralphm: I can't see his contact / tab
[13:32:22] <ralphm> Ok. Let's go
[13:32:23] <nyco> no, it's just that azxoraeiczhtrneipvhscrgxueygbuazeyogvxofbouezgxouyewrb
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[13:32:30] <Guus> nyco, ok
[13:32:41] <ralphm> Any particular agenda items?
[13:32:46] <nyco> https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
[13:32:59] <nyco> prios and executive?
[13:33:06] <nyco> ongoing topics, I think
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[13:33:22] <Guus> is there any more for us to do with 'prios' ?
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[13:33:38] <Guus> (I have no other agenda items)
[13:33:43] <MattJ> I have none either
[13:33:45] <nyco> we should agree? reach a consensus?
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[13:34:00] <ralphm> 1. Priorities
[13:34:22] <ralphm> Ok. So I think the order as nyco wrote it on trello can be improved
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[13:34:39] <nyco> yep, the card is too ra
[13:34:44] <nyco> raw
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[13:34:53] <ralphm> As I said last week, I think the item listed as 2. Organisation is our primary priority
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[13:35:08] <ralphm> (as Board)
[13:35:35] <ralphm> Because that's basically what any Board should do
[13:35:42] <nyco> bureaucracy, funding: these are the keywords
[13:35:42] <MattJ> I'd s/priority/responsibility/ I think for clarity
[13:35:50] <ralphm> sure
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[13:35:54] <Guus> unsure if we need to split hairs about which of these four topics needs to have highest priority. Can't we just word them nicely, and deliver them as "these are what we believe to be the most high-prio issues"?
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[13:36:23] <ralphm> Ok, but then the list would be like this:
[13:36:45] <nyco> Copy-paste:
== Priorities ==
Developer/Operator Community (14) => sprints/hackathons
Organisation (9) => bureaucracy, funding
Protocol (9) => modernization
Promotion (8) => usecases/showcases
[13:37:03] <nyco> Developer/Operator Community (14) => sprints/hackathons
=> that's for software developers, not the XSF, right?
[13:37:20] <nyco> Organisation (9) => bureaucracy, funding
=> that's for the XSF, especially the Board, correct?
[13:37:32] <nyco> Protocol (9) => modernization
=> that's for the Council, ok?
[13:37:42] <nyco> Promotion (8) => usecases/showcases
=> that's for SCAM, isn't it?
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[13:38:05] <nyco> so I guess we (the Board) need to discuss bureaucracy and funding
[13:38:22] <ralphm> * Generic Board responsibilities.
* Ensure our protocol standardization efforts through Council and Editors
* Support community efforts related to XMPP
* Support SCAM
[13:38:41] <Guus> nyco, I think you're right - but I do interpret this as "the board should put emphasis on enabling these work teams to do (all of the above)."
[13:38:54] <MattJ> nyco, I'd agree with that, noting that a number of things fall under the "developer/operator community" topic (e.g. enabling hackathons and other events through SCAM)
[13:39:00] <nyco> for bureaucracy, I don't clearly understand the problem, thus I am not able to propose solutions
[13:39:37] <Guus> I think we're agreeing a lot with each-other here
[13:39:50] <ralphm> This is basically ensuring we have elections for members and board, council
[13:40:01] <ralphm> liason with other standards bodies
[13:40:23] <ralphm> and generally be organized as a corporation
[13:40:28] <nyco> for funding, here is my thought, raw once again, sharing at early stage, please comment:
some software projects need money, we (Board) can help them setup Patreon pages for example
and though SCAM we can promote those campaigns, still respecting our "weak neutrality" (as I call it)
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[13:41:41] <nyco> anyway, we should not contemplate the problem that has been revealed
we should take some action, and think outcome
doing "not perfect" is acceptable
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[13:41:55] <ralphm> I 'm not sure we should do Patreon or similar, unless we as a foundation need something developed, like a standards compliance testing suite.
[13:42:02] <nyco> staying still is not wishable
[13:42:15] <nyco> ah good point
[13:42:28] <nyco> compliance suite could be funded by donations
[13:42:35] <nyco> that could be under the responsibility of the XSF
[13:42:51] <nyco> I was talking about software projects, which the XSF does not support directly
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[13:43:08] <ralphm> I don't the XSF should be involved in helping, say, Prosody acquire funds.
[13:43:08] <Guus> we can facilitate a knowledge-base that explains how, as an xmpp project, one could acquire funding.
[13:43:21] <nyco> that
[13:43:31] <nyco> what to do, what to expect
[13:43:32] <ralphm> sure, that's ok
[13:43:40] <nyco> we can collect people's experience
[13:43:42] <nyco> s
[13:43:45] <ralphm> If somebody wants to pick that up
[13:43:59] <Guus> well, we're drafting recommendations for the next board, right? 🙂
[13:44:07] <nyco> well, I can start seomthing, come back to the Board, we decide if stop or continue...
[13:44:14] <ralphm> But if we have to chose between efforts, we probably could do some work on our own funding
[13:44:24] <ralphm> choose
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[13:44:35] <nyco> we would not choose, just tell them how others do
[13:44:48] <Guus> yes - I neglected following up with Peter for to long on that - apologies.
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[13:45:02] <nyco> so, getting back to our own funding: what do we need money for?
[13:45:29] <ralphm> I mean that we have limited time, as Board, and I think our own continued funding should have priority
[13:45:42] <MattJ> There's what we use money for now, and there's what we could do with a reliable source of funds
[13:45:45] <ralphm> Well, if we want to continue having things like Summits, those cost money
[13:45:50] <nyco> well, first the sponsoring, right?
[13:45:58] <Guus> we have some recurring costs, but I think having funds to spend could enable us to do more than what we currently do.
[13:46:06] <ralphm> and they way we've dealt with sponsoring in the past has been less than optimal
[13:46:13] <ralphm> Guus: this
[13:46:24] <nyco> a source of fund can be temporary, like a crowdfunding campaign
Patreon and the likes are more split across time
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[13:46:34] <nyco> more predictible and repetitive, but lower amounts
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[13:48:01] <nyco> sponsoring less that optimal: why? what's the problem?
I think I heard we have not been the best at following up, that's right?
[13:49:29] <MattJ> Pretty much - to the point where we don't know who our current sponsors actually are
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[13:50:03] <nyco> so, trying to summarize: we talked about funding but not bureaucracy
in funding, we talked about sponsoring (repetitive, predictible, but need manpower)
ask for more sponsoring, or better follow up?
we could engage the process of developing the comp suite ?
[13:50:04] <MattJ> and we have had pledges for sponsoring e.g. the Brussels dinner and not collected money from those sponsors for two years running (at least)
[13:50:29] <nyco> argh
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[13:51:11] <ralphm> "bureaucrazy" doesn't necessarily need a plan right now, other than maybe figuring out if we want to continue having an Executive Director, and what role they should have.
[13:51:31] <ralphm> But indeed, we probably need a single person handing all things around sponsoring
[13:51:33] <nyco> that's 2. in our agenda today?
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[13:51:57] <Guus> Doorbell, afk
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[13:52:29] <ralphm> nyco: time permitting
[13:52:46] <nyco> ok, chicken and egg
what if hire someone? an admin role, not like in sysadmin/devops, but admin like legal and money
that way we could collect the real money, seriously, with proper tracking
this way we could pay that person
logic? ;-)
[13:53:07] <ralphm> But to me the biggest question on preparing for FOSDEM/Summit in 2019 is: which one person will take that on *and* follow through on all the things.
[13:53:31] <nyco> SCAM? not the Board?
[13:53:31] <MattJ> nyco, I actually wouldn't be opposed to that idea
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[13:54:14] <MattJ> nyco, SCAM is allocated a budget and spends it - it not directly involved in the sponsorship part
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[13:54:21] <nyco> yep
[13:54:31] <Guus> back
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[13:54:54] <Guus> and yes, that's for SCAM. And for board to follow up on with SCAM, if they don't act appropriately
[13:55:08] <nyco> hummm, do we have an organizational chat of the XSF?
[13:55:13] <nyco> sorry, out of context
[13:55:19] <Guus> as the WT leader of SCAM, I expect to be scolded 🙂
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[13:55:39] <MattJ> nyco, you mean like this MUC? :)
[13:55:49] <Guus> (I'm currently moving house - planning to take up FOSDEM next week)
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[13:56:16] <nyco> MattJ ;-)
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[13:57:20] <ralphm> I'm ok with SCAM handling that, but then I want a single person in SCAM to be appointed for it. Of course the same problem of course exists for the generic sponsoring efforts of the XSF. If we say this is the Treasurers responsibility, then we need to make sure that we clean up the site and follow up on acquiring new sponsors with him.
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[13:57:32] <nyco> hiring someone could help, lot of work though
crowdfunding could help as well, but what for?
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[13:58:02] <Guus> Ralph, we'll pick someone from within SCAM to take point.
[13:58:17] <ralphm> Guus: 💪
[13:58:36] <Guus> as for Treasurer: I'd be ok with that, providing that the Treasurer is.
[13:58:45] <nyco> it is all getting back to this: the XSF is in survival mode
we (individuals) do not invest and commit enough time&work to maintain it properly
[13:58:47] <Guus> maybe plan a sit-down with Peter?
[13:59:06] <ralphm> Guus: let's do that. You, Peter, and me?
[13:59:27] <Guus> ralphm: works for me, I'm open for other to attend, but maybe not swamp him?
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[13:59:48] <Guus> nyco: I don't quite agree with 'survival' mode - there's more potential, but I think we're not doing _that_ bad.
[13:59:53] <ralphm> nyco: I don't think I agree with that statement. I think the core of what we need to do – be a standards org – is going well.
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[14:00:37] <nyco> not being updated regarding sponsoring pretty much sucks... sorry for the vocab
[14:00:56] <nyco> it may be harsh, but it is a reality
[14:01:06] <Guus> nyco, true, but still, we're processing XEPs.
[14:01:14] <Guus> I agree that we could do _more_
[14:01:18] <nyco> good, the Council does, not the Board
[14:01:20] <Guus> but we're not "almost dead"
[14:01:26] <ralphm> I think we all agree our sponsoring situation is not good.
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[14:01:49] <nyco> the Board is not very commited, I have to say...
[14:01:55] <nyco> the engagement is low
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[14:02:03] <nyco> I'm guility of it
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[14:02:32] <Guus> This is a good time for me to point out that we're out of time for this week 😃 (sorry, but I'm pressed for time)
[14:02:39] <ralphm> :-D
[14:02:41] <nyco> you're right
[14:02:48] <MattJ> :)
[14:02:53] <ralphm> Guus: let's set this up then
[14:02:56] <nyco> thx all!
[14:03:02] <ralphm> 2. Date of Next
[14:03:03] <ralphm> +1W
[14:03:06] <nyco> +1
[14:03:06] <ralphm> 3. Close
[14:03:09] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[14:03:14] <nyco> merci à tous ! ;-)
[14:03:15] *ralphm bangs gavel
[14:03:25] <Guus> I will not be here next week
[14:03:29] *** ralphm changed the title to "XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings"
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[14:03:36] <nyco> huh... notes?
[14:03:38] <Guus> I'm selling my house at that exact time.
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[14:03:55] <nyco> good luck! but... do not sell it in bitcoins
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[14:04:13] <nyco> unless someone else does, I'll write the notes
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[14:04:34] <MattJ> nyco, that would be much appreciated, thanks!
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[14:06:02] <Guus> Thank you
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[14:07:08] <nyco> hey, just started that: https://app.mindmup.com/map/new/1538057154012
[14:07:16] <nyco> 1. can you see/read?
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[14:07:19] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:07:19] <nyco> 2. can you edit?
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[14:08:41] <Guus> I just typed something in that button-like thingy?
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[14:09:09] <nyco> I did not see anything moving
[14:09:12] <Guus> oh, but I have to sign up before I can save it?
[14:09:14] <nyco> add a block, maybe?
[14:09:19] <nyco> I have not signed up
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[14:09:39] <nyco> https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/YL2s4N2wQ2wxkGfS9md802ngaKH7fZ6bOO5Whfcm/Capture_d_e_cran_2018-09-27_a__16.09.27.png
[14:09:45] <nyco> in 2 min
[14:09:56] <Guus> oh, no, I see an empty page with just one blue block.
[14:10:08] <nyco> ok
[14:10:14] <nyco> I'll find something lese
[14:10:19] <nyco> I'll find something else
[14:10:21] <nyco> thx
[14:10:29] <Guus> np
[14:10:40] <Guus> I've figured out why I missed your chats
[14:10:45] <Guus> I got my contact list filtered on 'online'
[14:11:02] <Guus> and you're going offline and online, which makes you pop up and under 🙂
[14:11:22] <nyco> wat? I'm staying online with three concurrent clients
[14:11:27] <nyco> is there flapping somewhere?
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[14:11:35] <Guus> No, not now. That was earlier.
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[14:11:55] <Guus> at the begin of the meeting.
[14:11:59] <nyco> :'(
[14:12:02] <Guus> you showed as 'offline' for a moment
[14:12:05] <Guus> anyway
[14:12:07] <Guus> I got to run
[14:12:11] <nyco> bye!
[14:12:14] <Guus> bye
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[16:09:25] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[18:10:27] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
[18:10:33] *** Yagiza shows as "away" and his status message is "Автостатус из-за бездействия более чем 10 минут"
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[19:55:09] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
[19:55:13] *** Steve Kille shows as "online" and his status message is "At Home"
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[20:05:18] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
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[21:31:31] *** MattJ shows as "away"
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[21:38:02] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Non disponibile per inattività dopo più di 15 minuti)"
[21:38:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:14:14] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
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[22:45:46] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
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[22:52:27] *** equil shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[23:25:57] *** equil shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[23:35:57] *** equil shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:36:51] *** equil shows as "online"
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[23:41:57] *** equil shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:42:19] *** jjrh shows as "online"
[23:44:07] *** equil shows as "online"
[23:44:17] *** Guus has left the room
[23:44:17] *** Guus shows as "online"
[23:44:19] *** Maranda shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Non disponibile per inattività dopo più di 15 minuti)"
[23:44:19] *** Maranda shows as "online"
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[23:44:57] *** Guus has left the room
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[23:50:39] *** Guus shows as "online"
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[23:52:09] *** equil shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:56:15] *** equil shows as "online"
[23:58:38] *** Maranda shows as "away" and his status message is " (Assente per inattività dopo più di 5 minuti)"
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