XSF Discussion - 2018-10-11


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  72. jonas’ ping
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  83. Ge0rG peng
  84. jonas’ björn?
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  105. Link Mauve The 35c3 voucher system has started, did you get in touch with them to get some?
  106. Ge0rG Link Mauve: this should be for SCAM team, right?
  107. Link Mauve Ah, maybe.
  108. pep. Scam or not maybe somebody can send something, so we're not too late
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  163. jonas’ @SCAM: 35c3-tickets@cccv.de
  164. jonas’ @SCAM: mailto:35c3-tickets@cccv.de
  165. jonas’ Ge0rG, Link Mauve, ^ I don’t konw if SCAM has a MUC or something. forward it to them.
  166. MattJ scam@muc.xmpp.org
  167. jonas’ (something something too many tabs something)
  168. MattJ :)
  169. jonas’ hah, relevant backlog in that muc
  170. MattJ Exactly
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  181. nyco yep ;-)
  182. nyco who chairs? who minutes?
  183. guusdk Go for it
  184. MattJ I'll chair if someone else can minute
  185. guusdk I'll do afterwards
  186. nyco thx
  187. MattJ Ok
  188. MattJ 0) Role call: nyco, guusdk and myself
  189. MattJ 1) Topics for agenda
  190. MattJ Anyone have anything not on Trello?
  191. guusdk No
  192. nyco nope
  193. MattJ 2) Decisions: board priorities
  194. nyco last time we talked prios, didn't have time to talk executive
  195. nyco oh ok
  196. MattJ Didn't we decide on this already?
  197. nyco according to the minutes, we did not decide (we were not meant to)
  198. MattJ Gah, browser with Trello and minutes just crashed, one moment
  199. nyco we agreed we would not take decisions for the next board
  200. MattJ Right
  201. MattJ So are we done with this for now?
  202. nyco that's my feeling
  203. matlag has joined
  204. guusdk Nyco, didn't you offer to draft a nice recommendation for next board?
  205. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  206. nyco thx
  207. MattJ Moving on...
  208. guusdk I'm not trying to make nyco donor, btw. Though he volunteered
  209. guusdk Donor/do it
  210. nyco that's fine, I'm happy to contribute this
  211. MattJ 3) Commitment for the week (ha!) ahead: search for new ED
  212. nyco (which week? ;-) )
  213. MattJ I don't think we should be expecting Martin back before the end of the term
  214. MattJ and this was assigned to him
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  217. MattJ Nope, we already have one
  218. nyco there is a subject with Peter on sponsoring as well, right?
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  222. nyco modifying the bylaws need some work I guess, like validate the changes by a lawyer?
  223. MattJ guusdk, added to Trello
  224. Valerian has joined
  225. guusdk Tx
  226. MattJ 5) Discussion: Change board member tenure
  227. MattJ Did we come to some decision on this?
  228. guusdk I don't believe that there's consensus to change anything here.
  229. guusdk Leave as-is?
  230. MattJ I'll archive the card then
  231. nyco agree, I feel we don't want to change
  232. MattJ Ok, that's cleared up a few things in Trello
  233. MattJ We're left with our two long-running themes of the year (fundraising/financing, and ED replacement), and one new action item (call with Peter)
  234. MattJ 6) AOB?
  235. MattJ I have none
  236. guusdk Board/council elections process was started by the Secretary
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  239. MattJ Oh, wasn't aware of that
  240. guusdk Please find candidates and/or apply on wiki
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  242. MattJ Shall do
  243. nyco https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018
  244. guusdk See mail sent on October 1
  245. nyco @SCAM can/should we tweet that?
  246. goffi has left
  247. MattJ Doesn't really fall under SCAM, does it? There's nothing meetup-related
  248. guusdk nyco: good idea
  249. guusdk But it should be tweeted nonetheless
  250. MattJ +1
  251. nyco oh commteam
  252. MattJ Yeah, sorry, I realised it was probably just a typo after I wrote my message :)
  253. nyco we also should tweet every call for membership
  254. MattJ Ok, I think we're done then
  255. MattJ 7) Next meeting
  256. MattJ +1 week
  257. guusdk +1
  258. nyco +1
  259. guusdk Ok
  260. MattJ 8) The End
  261. MattJ Thanks all
  262. nyco thx all!
  263. guusdk Thanks
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  266. MattJ Aha
  267. MattJ I think I found what's up with xmpp.org
  268. MattJ Well, the XMPP service anyway
  269. MattJ Currently holds 1020 open fds, limit is 1024
  270. Zash It uses select???
  271. Ge0rG Le Sigh.
  272. MattJ ulimit
  273. Zash Oh
  274. Ge0rG https://issues.prosody.im/536
  275. MattJ Ah, fun
  276. MattJ The majority of open fds are UDP sockets "connected" to the DNS server
  277. MattJ which was down earlier in the week, so I guess that constitutes a bug
  278. Zash https://issues.prosody.im/1170 ?
  279. MattJ Except this server is many versions out of date, so probably just needs an upgrade
  280. Ge0rG I remember having a server silently running out of FDs. It sucks.
  281. MattJ Oh no, it's not out of date, apparently I upgraded it at some point
  282. tux has joined
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  284. MattJ Zash, so I guess you can take NeedInfo off that issue :)
  285. Zash Is this even 0.10.x?
  286. MattJ 0.10.2
  287. Zash MattJ: That change isn't in 0.10.2
  288. MattJ Ah
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  291. MattJ Ok, service should be restored for now
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  295. Ge0rG did you throw in some more sockets?
  296. jonas’ prosody should just re-exec itself when it runs out of sockets /s
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  299. Ge0rG jonas’: message to all admins and reexec
  300. Zash Why
  301. Zash And how
  302. Ge0rG Zash: it will close all sockets.
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  305. flow Ge0rG why not simply monitor the open fd externally and send an (XMPP) message?
  306. flow *open fd count
  307. jonas’ Ge0rG, let me tell you about my botnet opening 65535 TCP connections to your prosody instance :>
  308. jonas’ flow, "simply" and "monitor" and "prosody" in a single statement is daring
  309. Zash "fd count" is painful as well
  310. flow jonas’, I think it could be done prosody agnostic, i.e. not specific to a particular process binary, you just monitor if your process is running against the open fd limit
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  312. jonas’ flow, picking the right process to monitor isn’t easy either
  313. Ge0rG flow: feel free to PR against https://issues.prosody.im/536
  314. MattJ Ge0rG, PR for an external script?
  315. MattJ I'll repeat what's already said in the issue: there is no API for asking the OS how many fds you have open
  316. MattJ So file an issue for Linux
  317. Zash I haven't even seen anyhing in the epoll API that tells you how many FDs you are watching
  318. Zash Easy enough with select() since you have to manually add them for every call
  319. jonas’ open /proc/self/fd, count number of entries?
  320. Zash But then you're limited to sizeof(fd_set) * (bits per byte)
  321. Zash jonas’: That's mentioned in a comment in the issue already
  322. jonas’ sorry :)
  323. Ge0rG MattJ: the external script could be part of the OS-level packaging and tooling
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  326. Zash File an issue for systemd
  327. MattJ Talking about epoll/etc. is besides the point... fds != connections
  328. Ge0rG isn't this all about fds only?
  329. MattJ You suggested select/epoll in comment 6
  330. MattJ and I pointed out what I just pointed out (fds != connections) in comment 7
  331. Zash All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again, and again, and again.
  332. Zash What jonas’ said is comment 8
  333. MattJ The only way to correctly implement this is an O(N) loop, run $frequently
  334. Zash Can you get the size of a directory in O(less than n) in Linux?
  335. Zash Or does that just move the O(n) elsewhere?
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  337. Ge0rG MattJ: you are the one bringing up connections all the time.
  338. Zash Or are /proc directory entries too magical for that
  339. Ge0rG Zash: opening /proc/self/fd requires... a free fd
  340. Zash Dun dun DUN
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  343. Ge0rG I wouldn't be surpsised if sending a message to admins would also require a free fd.
  344. Ge0rG or multiple ones.
  345. Zash Might, yes
  346. Ge0rG Can't you just detect EMFILE from any fd you open and trigger an error condition on that?
  347. Ge0rG BTW, this MUC is exceptionally laggy today.
  348. Zash Storage might need a FD to write to eg offline storage or archive
  349. Zash Don't we already?
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  351. Zash Wow, that is laggy
  352. Ge0rG MattJ: did prosody run out of descriptors again?
  353. Zash But not now?
  354. Zash .
  355. Zash Apparently it is
  356. Zash 17:00 now
  357. Zash 25s lag
  358. Zash Catching up with something?
  359. Ge0rG xsf@muc.xmpp.org did not respond to ping after 10s: timeout
  360. Ge0rG shakes fist at poezio
  361. jonas’ ping
  362. jonas’ wfm
  363. jonas’ very fast from here
  364. Zash .
  365. Ge0rG sometimes it's fast, and sometimes it lags. swap disk thrashing?
  366. waqas .
  367. jonas’ fun :)
  368. Zash .
  369. Ge0rG . . , -
  370. jonas’ fertig ist das mondgesich,.
  371. jonas’ fertig ist das mondgesicht
  372. Zash u wut m8?
  373. MattJ Everything seems fine to me
  374. jonas’ maybe bad internet weather?
  375. Ge0rG do I need to add xmpp.org to my smokeping?
  376. jonas’ do it
  377. Ge0rG all is looking well on the icmp front
  378. Ge0rG it must be a host latency issue.
  379. MattJ Ah, postgres 100% CPU, user: xmppoke
  380. jonas’ nice
  381. MattJ .
  382. MattJ .
  383. waqas .
  384. Zash Is xmpp.net still broken?
  385. Zash Looks liket here are recent results that worked
  386. Zash Looks like there are recent results that worked
  387. MattJ `docker nice`...
  388. jonas’ nice
  389. jonas’ (pun intended)
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  391. MattJ It doesn't exist
  392. MattJ I wish it did
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  410. SamWhited jonas’: re my question earlier, can you expand on your decision to move 0392 to HSLuv? You claim it has widespread library support, but the ones I've found are *really* terrible, and I think there was some value in using a standard color space. HSLuv may look nice, but it has no real applications in insdustry and isn't likely to be widely supported, so I'm skeptical of that claim
  411. SamWhited I'm not specifically for YCbCr to be clear, I don't care what colorspace is used it just seems like there's value in using a standardized one
  412. SamWhited not just some random persons personal project that's not used anywhere
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  414. jonas’ right
  415. jonas’ so, what we did on top of YCbCr is essentially what HSLuv does on top of CIE XYZ, but worse
  416. jonas’ so it’s a home-brew solution either way
  417. jonas’ except that HSLuv gives better results
  418. SamWhited I didn't remember you making changes to YCbCr, what did you do on top of it?
  419. jonas’ the algorithm to determine CbCr based on the angle
  420. jonas’ or rather, based on the 16 bit input extracted from the hash
  421. SamWhited That's just picking a color out of the space, that seems fine; you'll have to do that no matter what space you use
  422. jonas’ that’s what HSLuv does on top of XYZ anyways
  423. jonas’ but the results are much more uniform than what we had with YCbCr
  424. SamWhited Hmm, I didn't understand that; it's an entirely new colorspace as far as I could tell, maybe I need to go reread their definition of it
  425. jonas’ http://www.hsluv.org/math/
  426. jonas’ oh, it works on top of CIE LUV LCh, not XYZ
  427. jonas’ not sure where I got the XYZ from
  428. jonas’ it is really pretty much exactly what we did with YCbCr: use Hue as angle, cast a ray to the border, take value
  429. SamWhited Yah, that's not the same thing at all; it's a brand new color space, they've just defined it as a transformation of CIE LUV
  430. SamWhited You couldn't just pick a color from an eisting CIE LUV implementation, as far as I can tell from this
  431. jonas’ so, old XEP-0392 was just an entirely new color space which can be defined as a transformation of YCbCr; that’s wordplay
  432. SamWhited I don't think that's true, these are two different things
  433. SamWhited If I had the set of all possible colors in YCbCr I could do you algorithm and get colors in that set (I think?)
  434. jonas’ no
  435. SamWhited If I have the set of all colors in CIE LUV I can't do 0392 with that, I have to implement HSLuv first
  436. jonas’ no wait, I don’t understand what you’re saying
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  439. SamWhited I'm saying that if I have a CIELuv implementation I can't implement 0392 with that; it will be different colors than if I start from an HSLuv implementation.
  440. SamWhited And HSLuv isn't actually a standard that anyone recognizes, and contrary to your claim doesn't have very good library support as far as I can tell
  441. jonas’ SamWhited, I didn’t review all the implementations in http://www.hsluv.org/implementations/ but at least the Python and Java ones seem to be fine
  442. jonas’ the C one, too
  443. SamWhited I reviewed a few; they were mostly terrible, unidiomatic, and unmaintained.
  444. SamWhited They're examples, but not actually something I'd use in prod
  445. SamWhited And either way it seems like there's valule in using a widely recognized standard and not something where the only support will come from a single party
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  447. jonas’ maybe
  448. jonas’ however, the results with YCbCr are not as nice as HSLuv
  449. SamWhited Maybe if you want those specific colors it would make sense to define 0392 in terms of CIE Luv which I think is widely standardsized and just include the math for going to HSLuv (and you could mention that if you have an HSLuv implementation you can just start from their)?
  450. jonas’ that would make 0392 unnecessarily long
  451. SamWhited They look about he same to me, if anything I've gotten more gross mustard yellow since Conversations updated, but that's probably just bad luck
  452. jonas’ the difference is in the uniformity of brightness
  453. jonas’ lemme grab you a screenshot
  454. SamWhited Yah, the brightness uniformity is nice, but it doesn't outweigh the downside in my opinion; there has to be a standardized colorspace or subset of one that has uniform brightness?
  455. jonas’ not really, unless you do exactly what HSLuv does
  456. jonas’ maybe on top of something else
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  458. jonas’ but you end up using one of the photometric ones (XYZ, LUV, you name it), and do a solve() to determine the right color for a given hue and saturation
  459. SamWhited I dunno, personally if the only benefit is more uniform brightness that's nice, but doesn't make it worth using a colorspace that has a total of one implementation in a few languages and isn't actually used anywhere and that no one has any experience with
  460. 404.city has left
  461. SamWhited It doesn't seem like it would be that much more to describe how to construct this colorspace though, but maybe I'm being over optimistic, I need to look over the math and actually try to understand it
  462. SamWhited Since I'd have to do that to implement it anyways
  463. jonas’ the golang implementation doesn’t look too bad to me, but I don’t know lots of go either way
  464. SamWhited It's bad
  465. SamWhited That one in particular is more or less unusably bad; there are standard interfaces for doing colors in go which it doesn't implement.
  466. SamWhited Also the code just isn't idiomatic
  467. SamWhited And is impossible to follow or reason about because of the way they've defined it as transformations through multiple other colorspaces
  468. jonas’ color spaces are all a mess, unless you go to the photometric ones
  469. jonas’ and converting the good photometric ones (CIE LUV in this case) to one you can use to display something on a computer is where you get the mess you save by doing stuff in photometrics
  470. SamWhited I get that that's a pain, but it still seems worth using an actual standard
  471. SamWhited Even if it doesn't look as great; YCbCr seemed fine to me personally
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  473. SamWhited Actually, specifically looking at Go right now (I'd like to implement this in Go and Rust) I can't find a CIELUV implementation either, which suprises me
  474. jonas’ I’m not surprised.
  475. SamWhited I guess that one's not all that widely used, even if it has been standardized for a while
  476. SamWhited So maybe starting from that wouldn't help, I haven't looked at other languages yet though
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